Looking at NIN/RDM... (not a joke post)

[Keits]

ROFL, ROFL, omg thats funny, you dont think THF OR SAM's are DD's? You have been smoking too much drugs or something, cuz THF's are one of the best DD's in the game, as for SAM they do heavy dmg with a lot of WS's! RDM of course rdm isnt a DD, there a support class, everyone knows that
NIN is a tank? You have any physical proof that SE WANTED NIN's to tank? No you dont! As far as i am concerned, NIN's were MADE tanks by biased people like you. and i guess you havent A) Leveled nin high enough or B) Ever played in a party with a NIN that has Shurikens, Shurikens do a lot of friken dmg!!! Enough to keep up with a Dark Knight!
Go ahead, flame me, tell me that i am wrong and nins cant do dmg, go ahead, i wont give a crap, becuz i know that nins can be heavy dmg dealers

Runekane covered a lot of what I was going to say, but yeah... THF and SAM are not damage dealers. If you think otherwise, you are either being mislead or are a completely ignorant noob. Not really a nice way to put it, but thats how things are.

About NIN tanks ~~ You can cry and cry all day about NIN not being 'meant' to tank. What the origional intention was doesnt matter one itty little bit. Here are the fact (please note the word fact, as it means the following are truths, not opinions.)

-Shurican deal a lot of damage with a very small delay. A NIN could, in theory, use these very frequently to play the role of a damage dealer. These throwing items, however, are prohibitively expensive. I barely see any NIN on our server using a shurican here and there as a 2nd provoke (which is their best use)... If you did have enough money to spam shurican the way you seem to way too, it would take the best PLD and THF combo to keep hate off you. And if hate is on you... guess what? Your tanking again.
-NIN melee damage is poor. It does improve as more and more Dual Weild trates stack onto them, but they will never melee damage the way a MNK or RNG, or even a DRK or WAR do.
-The NI line of enfeebles are very powerful, and the elemental debuffs can make a difference in SC->MB. These alone, however, dont warrent a party invite. A BRD can do these functions and way way more.

So, what we have so far is either:
*A RNG that costs even more than actually playing RNG or
*An Enfeebler that cant even come close to aiding the party like a RDM or BRD or
*A really crappy melee damage dealer.

One more fact, then:

*NIN is the best job in the game at not taking damage. They have an A in evasion, and Copy Image spells. When used to tank, they relieve a lot of pressure and MP consumption from the healers. Now, here is the key part... Ill put it in bold for you:

Even if NIN were not 'intended' to, playing an 'evasion-tank' is the only thing that NIN can do better than any other job. This is NIN's role in FFXI, as it currently stands today.


I'm not 'biased', I just not ignorant enough to ignor what a job is truely good at. You seem to want to, though.

Have fun going through a stack of Manji or Juji Shurican every 6-8 or so fights. Its totally practical.

 

[Keits]

when i was talking about the NIN, i was talking NIN as original
Not subbing RNG, WAR, RDM, i was talking about NIN as a whole
NIN's werent sopposed to tank, but people turned them into tanks

Squeenix turned them into tanks when they gave them Utsusemi, and made it so that they couldnt do anything else adequetly well.

Dont be so diluded.

 

[Villarel]

Sure I could be a good DD by being a shuriken throwing ninja. I tried this out while farming some cocktrice. I ended up costing me 100+k in shurikens for 1 hours worth of farming (I went all out). Ninja as DD? No thanks!

If I wanted to be a damage dealing ninja I would sub RNG. But if I wanted to be a RNG I would play RNG/NIN which would cost me a lot less, while giving me weapon skills to boot.

What ever you may say or think, Ninjas are best as tanks. You are just denying the reality of the game when you say that ninjas are not meant to tank.

P.S. And yes I have played A) Ninja high enough level to understand how to play Ninja, and B) I have tired to throw shurikens for high damage. :wink:

 

[Keits]

Oni ~ Is your sig up to date? Is your NIN really only lv14?

 

[OniTatsujin]

yes, it would be higher if i could play more, but with my parents being divorced, i can only play everytime im at my moms, which is everyother weekend

 

[Keits]

yes, it would be higher if i could play more, but with my parents being divorced, i can only play everytime im at my moms, which is everyother weekend

Well, in that case, my NIN is higher level that yours.

(This is not something I'd normally boast, but you DID say "Maybe you havent played NIN up high enough to see teh mad damage omgrooflelolz"... or something like that.)

 

[OniTatsujin]

yes, it would be higher if i could play more, but with my parents being divorced, i can only play everytime im at my moms, which is everyother weekend

Well, in that case, my NIN is higher level that yours.

(This is not something I'd normally boast, but you DID say "Maybe you havent played NIN up high enough to see teh mad damage omgrooflelolz"... or something like that.)

4 levels higher than me, wooo....and i am saying that you havent played NIN high enough because i have talked with many High level Ninjas, on other servers, and they use Shuriken, etc.

 

[naffenu]

yes, it would be higher if i could play more, but with my parents being divorced, i can only play everytime im at my moms, which is everyother weekend

Well, in that case, my NIN is higher level that yours.

(This is not something I'd normally boast, but you DID say "Maybe you havent played NIN up high enough to see teh mad damage omgrooflelolz"... or something like that.)

4 levels higher than me, wooo....and i am saying that you havent played NIN high enough because i have talked with many High level Ninjas, on other servers, and they use Shuriken, etc.

Wait, you've talked to ninjas on other servers? You mean like, you talked to them on allakhazams or something?? HAHAHAH

 

[Sabia]

You can talk to other players on other servers in-game, you just have to do it through the friendlist mail instead of tells. I'm in contact with someone on the Shiva server that I chat with when I'm leveling my magic skill

 

[j]

4 levels higher than me, wooo....and i am saying that you havent played NIN high enough because i have talked with many High level Ninjas, on other servers, and they use Shuriken, etc.

From lvls 18 to 28ish (i forget the exact lvls) you can throw shurikens and not spend a whole lot more than tanking. Go to norg and buy them there.. sub ranger and do ur thing... infact i hated (and still do) PT'ing so much at qufim and valkrum i just solo'd once i was able to use those shurikens. But after 28 the dmg becomes very very low and not reasonable enough to use in a PT. You can start using Juji Shurikens but those are not affordable even for the richest players... but those you can use from 28~35ish before dmg goes down.

As for your higher lvls nin friends who throw shurikens, how high are these nins? I'm assuming no higher than 30, and let me explain why.... Manji's which can be used at 45ish are beyond expensive... to make 33 you need to spend 27k on materials (i think its a dark steel sheet which requires 4 dark steel ores into an ingot, which is then turned to a sheet). At lvl 60 you can use Fuma Shurikens lol to make 33 of these will cost you roughly 33k to make on our servers. These kids must be on one cheap ass server if they are tossing shurikens at lvl 45...

Get my drift? even if you HQ them every time 27k for 99 manji shurikens is not even remotely reasonable.. you'll toss 99 shurikens in less than 45m because of thier delay. I've seen 3 nins throw shurikens and thats me and my 2 buddies who found a cheaper more reasonalbe place to buy them UNTIL lvl 28


edit: quick edit.. hope this doesn't bring you down too much, but reality will hit you hard when you realize you've spent 500k to lvl from 33 to 34... imagine lvling from 60 to 61 it'll quiet possibly cost you 2mil gil to lvl

 

[Keits]

And the truth shall set you free.

NIN has one real subjob choice. This choice is /WAR. Start tanking, or do what J said for 6 to 8 levels with /RNG.

 

[OniTatsujin]

or not
post 60, you can sub THF, adding in the abilities Steal, Flee, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and trait such as Evasion boost, gilfinder, treasure hunter, etc.

you can SATA just like a THF, only thing is Thieves at that level have more evasion boosts, Mug, Triple Attack, etc.
I really don't see nothing wrong with this combo post 60

 

[Keits]

or not
post 60, you can sub THF, adding in the abilities Steal, Flee, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and trait such as Evasion boost, gilfinder, treasure hunter, etc.

you can SATA just like a THF, only thing is Thieves at that level have more evasion boosts, Mug, Triple Attack, etc.
I really don't see nothing wrong with this combo post 60

I cant hold back anymore... you are an IDIOT.

You cant Sneak attack OR Trick Attack like a THF. The subjob versions of these abilities are G*I*M*P*E*D and only lend well to being used with high-damage weapons during weaponskills. The katana are NOT high damage weapons.

Evasion boost does SHIT if you never get hit, and because you arnt tanking, buh-bye usefulness. Gilfinder and T-Hunder are great for farming, but add nothing to an XP party... just like NIN/THF (at any level).

YOU dont see anything wrong with this combo because YOU know nothing about the game. At least do your reading before you just slap two jobs together and say "It works!".

RAWR.

 

[Villarel]

LMAO.

How are you going to get NIN/THF to 60? Solo? or better yet, try NIN/RDM

 

[Firestreak]

Yes I usually stick to the standard subjobs because they are wisely selected for this reasoning>>

The person understands the job's usefulness to a party.

This subjob strives to assist or make possible this usefulness.

Hence, paladin will never have any other useful job than provoke, because if not tanking a paladin is useless. You want to argue that a ninja is different because they do more damage than paladin, but that is like arguing the paladin is different because they can be used as main healer. I have used my paladin as main healer before, it sucks. Just like a ninja sucks if used for the damage. These are both backup abilities they have to assist them in tanking. They are both about >> holding hate << .

 

[OniTatsujin]

or not
post 60, you can sub THF, adding in the abilities Steal, Flee, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and trait such as Evasion boost, gilfinder, treasure hunter, etc.

you can SATA just like a THF, only thing is Thieves at that level have more evasion boosts, Mug, Triple Attack, etc.
I really don't see nothing wrong with this combo post 60

I cant hold back anymore... you are an IDIOT.

You cant Sneak attack OR Trick Attack like a THF. The subjob versions of these abilities are G*I*M*P*E*D and only lend well to being used with high-damage weapons during weaponskills. The katana are NOT high damage weapons.

Evasion boost does SHIT if you never get hit, and because you arnt tanking, buh-bye usefulness. Gilfinder and T-Hunder are great for farming, but add nothing to an XP party... just like NIN/THF (at any level).

YOU dont see anything wrong with this combo because YOU know nothing about the game. At least do your reading before you just slap two jobs together and say "It works!".

RAWR.

tell me, have YOU tried this combo or any other combo, no i don't think you have, you can only tell if you have tried it out, otherwise, SHUT IT, because you haven't tried it, you only THINK it won't work because you think, "Oh i am the almighty high level, i know everything", you can't just toss an idea away unless you have TRIED it, i talked a lvl 60 NIN in trying NIN/THF and he was impressed with it, and he wanted to try other subjobs
But you haven't TRIED it so you don't really know, until you have tried it out, and seen it for yourself, and it doesn't work out right, THEN you have the right to call me an idiot, but for right now, you can't

 

[Mattaru]

Oni, do what you want, if you enjoy it its a good combo for YOU. If its a huge gimp you should find out soon enough and not pt with it, do it out of respect to other players or solo it. I think there are definitely worse combinations but Keits would have you believe that if it isnt the best combination its gimp and not worth playing. I am sorry you have been called an idiot for attempting to play a job combo that you may have little experience in, stubborn maybe, but idiotic not necesarrily. I think Keits has done a good job showing how it isnt the best combo which it has not and maybe you have been to stubborn about it but still it doesnt warrant a "omg you are teh suxorz noob to teh maxorz noob...rofllmaololpwnedified". That response is saved for when you kill people using that job combo. God forbid we try to break the mold and let our skills at playing try to pick up some of the slack because we may not like the obvious job choice. It may be "all in the numbers" to an extent, but there are plenty of shitty players who have the best job combo out there and that doesnt pick up the slack.

 

[Firestreak]

This post isn't to discuss if player skills outweighs job selection, it's a post of the viableness of certain job combinations. The truth many will realize is at higher levels you need BOTH a well rounded party and everyone having good skill or your party will not get very far.

 

[Mattaru]

This post isn't to discuss if player skills outweighs job selection, it's a post of the viableness of certain job combinations. The truth many will realize is at higher levels you need BOTH a well rounded party and everyone having good skill or your party will not get very far.

I agree that both is important, if you think my point isnt applicable thats fine, my post was basically saying even if the job combonation isnt the best choice doesnt mean its not worth playing if you have fun with it and are not getting people killed. That in and of itself is topical to the discussion in this thread though maybe not directly to how good a nin/rdm is. Simply i dont have the experience in either of those jobs to add anything constructive to that combo. Its intuitive that a good job combo
+ skilled player is better than gimp or semi gimp + skilled player, but there is no point unless you have fun with it because fun > than no fun . Unless, you are a masochist but then we get into a paradox....

 

[Firestreak]

Haha there are plenty of things I'd consider fun that I don't do because it wouldn't benefit the party. Like I'd have hella fun on my paladin subbing samurai and spamming spirits within, but that isn't gonna help anyone level up any time soon is it? I mean there are level up parties and there are skillup parties(the only time a high level redmage should be meleeing). And there are goof around parties where you sub whatever you feel like and go around killing even with some friends. Please, make a distinction.