Looking at NIN/RDM... (not a joke post)

To those of you RDM near lv30, you should see your melee ability rapidly deminish as you level past 30. You will also become less and less sturdy in the face of IT monsters.

Now; for you... Ill put my comments in red. And Runekane~~ Im sorry this got off topic.

ArmachiA said:
I'm a level 53 redmage and have been playing the job since the game came out in October. A redmage's job isn't as defined as, say, a paladins job or a White Mages. It's the both the blessing and the curse of the job. There is more to the job then just being a Refresh Pony and Enfeebler (Not to mention the Backup healer). After all, Black mages and white mages get the same enfeeblement spells as a RDM (Except for Gravity and Dispell, which you can sub RDM for that...

But they cant cap their enfeebling skill as high as a RDM, so a RDM will always have an easier time landing these.

and I've seen it done), the only Truely unique Redmage spell in the game is Refresh, since even if you sub RDM you still can't get the spell (At this point), but people assume that because this is the case, it's the only thing redmages are good for.

No one ever said that this was all RDMs are good for... HOWEVER, if you arnt keeping everyone in your party that has MP refreshed to the best of your ability, you are ingoring one of the main focuses of your job.

Telling a redmage to "do their job" and stay in the backlines is wasting a redmages abilities.

Have you ever actually seen a RDM's melee damage parsed? It truely doesnt add up. Mathematically, at your level, there is no reason for you to be on the front lines.

Why, just the other day I had a 5 person party and 2 of them were RDM (There was no WHM). They had me melee while the other girl acted as the healer and I was her backup. We were chaining, and getting really good EXP.

I dont doubt that you were chaining and making good xp. What I doubt is that your melee helped any. When you equip a sword/dagger to melee instead of a club or staff for stats, you are weakening youself to the main focus of your job, which is... Spell casting!!! Anything you equip to be a better melee takes a slot away from something you could have equipped to become a better nuker. And if you ask anyone in the game who knows their shit; they will tell you that the best damage in the game comes from Nukes.

As for the AoE thing, thats bull. A RDMs defense is higher than any other mage class
But lower than nearly every other melee.

and can handle an AoE attack (I should know, I've seen my fair share), plus they can cure themselves if they get into trouble.

Curing yourself causes double the hate of curing others. Curing yourself also costs mana. This is mana that didnt need to be spent curing a mage who isnt dealing signifigant melee damage anyway. This mana could have been spent on ONE NUKE that totals higher in damage than your entire fight worth of melee combined.

No, RDMs are not meant to tank (Oh god, heaven forbid that happen) but a Spellcaster who also melees will help just as much when it comes to killing the bad guys...

I know that this statement sounds true to you in your head, but it just isnt. Mathematically, a RDM of your level being in melee is a waste of everyone's time. The only exception to this being that the mob has Zero~None~Zilch harmful AE.

and that's all it really boils down too... especially if the RDM is Refreshing/Enfeebling/Healing/Magic Bursting as well as meleeing.

I will forever be a meleeing RDM (Of course I still do my RDM spells and everything, after all, it's part of the job) cuz ignoring it means you're not doing 100%

Wrong again. Being in melee means you are ingoring some of the equipment you really need to make sure your enfeebles and nukes land. Especially if you arnt blessed with Taru INT. So, in fact, being in melee at your level means that you arnt doing 100%

However, a RDM who CHOOSES not to melee is perfectly fine. It just urks me when Melee classes assume that RDMs can't do anything but be the WHM's and PLD's crack dealer (AKA Refresh whore :P) and should stay in the back lines.

You should keep your ass in the back lines. Im not saying that because im some hard-headed melee. Im saying that because that is what the best RDMs do. Im saying that because RDM melee does not work, mathematically, at level 53. You have a right not to believe me; but I'd beg you to download a parser and look at the difference between:

A.) The cost of an en-spell and a self cure + an entire fight of melee damage vs
B.) The cost of two good nukes and the damage they do.

B. Will win. I promise.
Click to expand...
 
And Im not calling you a bad RDM, or saying 'NEVER MELEE AGAIN!'. What im trying to do is explain why RDM melee really doesnt work the way you seem to think it does.
 
Runekane said:
How the hell did this post get off topic?


I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RDM/NIN!!!!!!!!!!!!1ONE!
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The thread turned into an RDM/NIN thread when Mohoso said he had a friend who did fine as a RDM/NIN.

You can't really make these thread stay on topic. Sometimes they have a mind of their own.
 
Keits said:
You should keep your ass in the back lines. Im not saying that because im some hard-headed melee. Im saying that because that is what the best RDMs do. Im saying that because RDM melee does not work, mathematically, at level 53. You have a right not to believe me; but I'd beg you to download a parser and look at the difference between:
Click to expand...

Keep my ass in the backlines? Gee's what that really nessisary.

Obviously you aren't getting what I'm saying. If a Redmage can Refresh, be the back up healer, dispell, enfeeble AND Melee, then people should let her.
Oviously, if a RDM isn't doing anything but melee then they are a bad redmage, but if they are doing they're job, then let them melee if they want too. It can only help. (Plus we always have Phalanx readily avaible, so if we get agro it's not the end of the world)
And there are swords thats help RDMS as well as staffs (I have epuipt the Crimson Blade.. +10 MP +5 intelligence)
~~~

And I know it works the way I think it does because I've played the job for 9 months. Have you?

Okay then.

And sorry this got off tpopic, but I did reply on topic before ^^
 
if rdm arent sopposed to melee, then why the hell do we get a kick ass AF Sword?
If you have mana to spare on cureing yourself and i guess an en-spell then thats good enough, plus you can gain that back with refresh anyways

You are acting like those people that are like "Blah, Red Mage, not Red Warrior, blah"
first of all, WE ARE STILL CASTING
second of all, if she was chaining things and everything, then she doesnt have to rest as much, now does she, so she could easily melee, while still casting the right spells, etc.

we might not do a lot of dmg, but we do some, and pretty decent
In the middle of casting a nuke, and other spells, we can hit for some dmg, and lower the monster, and DOT it will do quite well
 
*sigh* So this has turned into a RDM thread... and here's my 2 gil about the subject.

If you are DETERMINED to melee as a RDM, sub DRK. Hell yes, sub DRK!

Things you lose by ditching other subs...

-BLM-
1)Lose some INT
2)Lose a Clear Mind trait or two
3)Don't have Rasp/Frost/etc, avaible for use.
4)(Probably the biggest blow).. No Elemental Seal! (harder to sleep adds/links)
5)Chainspell+Escape @ 58 to save the whole PT

-WHM-
1)Status Cures
2)Lose some MND
3)Curega series
4)Divine Seal

-SMN-
1)Auto-refresh
2)More MP than all the other subs
3)Avatar abilities

-NIN-
1)Dual Wield
2)... Dual Wield
3)Stealth (Not needed for RDM anyway)

With the DRK sub, you get...
1)Attack Bonuses!
2)High STR!
3)Drain at 20, Aspir at level 40, Absorb spells at high levels (not a biggie)
4)Soul Eater @ 60 (only +5% of your HP damage, but still...)


There's also a sword at 40-something that gives +2 to en-spell damage and + to duration for en-spells. It's "rare", and Anglis bought it for a short period of time... said it added like a total of 5-6 or more damage or something to his en-spells. (Just like how the "damage" value on weapons makes a HUGE difference)... I believe if you insist on meleeing, you can't go wrong with the DRK sub, even all the way up to 75.

However, by enhancing your melee ability... you lose out on party-saving tactics, such as Elemental Seal +Sleep (II), and Chainspell+Escape.

As I said, just my 2 gil ^^
 
Keits said:
And Im not calling you a bad RDM, or saying 'NEVER MELEE AGAIN!'. What im trying to do is explain why RDM melee really doesnt work the way you seem to think it does.
Click to expand...

Please reread the above, Armi.

You can argue with me, or cite how every many leveling in which ever jobs you want to... but mathematically, if you want to call yourself the best RDM on the server, you need to not be in melee. The numbers dont lie.

If you enjoy the way you do your job, then by all means, keep doing it that way. I'm told you are quite good at it, so more power to you. But please dont try to tell me that RDM in melee makes more sense than sitting back. It doesnt.
 
Runekane said:
If you are DETERMINED to melee as a RDM, sub DRK. Hell yes, sub DRK!
Click to expand...

Actually RDM/DRKs are very useful for some of the god fights where constant stun is needed to survive (ie. Byakko).

As for NIN/RDM, I don't know what role this job combo would fill in PTs. NIN job doesn't do that much damage; so not a damage dealer (DD). If I wanted a DD I would pick a monk. Not hate controller. Enfeebler? Nope. I rather have an RDM or BRD for refresh/ballad.

Puller? Maybe I'll consider NIN/RDM as a puller for my canon PT.
 
OniTatsujin said:
if rdm arent sopposed to melee, then why the hell do we get a kick ass AF Sword?
Click to expand...
This made me laugh, and think, if whm aren't supposed to tank, why can they equip shields and the best body armor at level 40?

Nin/rdm =
gimped nukes
gimped enfeebling spells (but regular ninjitsu enfeebles)
tiny mp pool
curing spells that will help very little
adding an extra 25% to your damage with an en- spell (this is very generous) when you are only doing a fraction of the damage of a rng, blm, or drk

As for a rdm doing melee, the rdm could run up to the mob and do emote motions for all I care as long as he's doing his main duties and there is no AoE. The "I can handle an AoE" arguement isn't all that valid, since someone will have to cure you, slowing down the party. I partied with a taru rdm in lower delkfutt's tower who did melee, and for the 50 damage he did per battle, he took more than that each time a gob dropped a bomb, taking a large chunk of my mp as the whm.

Arguement for rdm staying in the back lines: unexpected aggro mob pops. No job can handle these like a rdm/blm. Elemental seal + sleep, phalanx, stoneskin, blink, and the rdm can tank the add until the melee finish the mob they are fighting. If rdm is doing melee, this is going to take at least an extra 5 seconds to happen, much longer if they are watching their uber damage in the chat log.
 
nin/rdm or rdm/nin would actually pwn,
but really rdms are a jack of all trades so they can melee and heal and nuke..plus its rather boring just to stand there just healing
i always say do what u want just keep the party alive XD
basicly they fight and heal us so..rdm's are allowed to do close combat
 
Stouter, I love people who don't read.

Go back to the original post.

Nowhere did I say NIN/RDM would be using any of the serious RDM debuffs, did I? :P

The en-spells are just gravy on top of the magic-attack up bonus you get at 20 RDM sub (level 40), and fast cast.

Thank for you "reading" the whole subject matter ^^
 
I have news
I had a lvl 57NIN try out NIN/RDM
He said he was quite impressed with the melee dmg
but he didnt use the Ni elemental spells, so i am asking he do it again but with the ni elemental spells casted
and as for the people who say NIN dont do enough dmg, well you arent very wise then, NIN become VERY good dmg dealers, FAST Attacks, plus SHURIKEN which do a lot of friken dmg, and also the fact that we can also cast dmg ninjutsu that do over 100(the lvl57NIN ELVAAN does for his casting, and Elvaan have weak INT, a TAru NIN could cast for a lot more)
i will have an update once he tries out ninjutsu dmg
 
NIN are still weaker damage dealers than the other DD. What role do you want to be in PT? DD?

I would pick any other DD out there before I pick a NIN/RDM for damage.
 
Villarel said:
NIN are still weaker damage dealers than the other DD. What role do you want to be in PT? DD?

I would pick any other DD out there before I pick a NIN/RDM for damage.
Click to expand...

Exactly. A PLD with a G.Sword deals 'okay' damage too... but when trying to fill a DD spot in the party, why would you ever invite a 'lesser' job (assuming a greater one were available)?

DD = RNG, DRK, MNK ~BLM, ~~~DRG
Not DD = NIN, PLD, SAM, THF, RDM

Download a non-infected parser (poor guy ; ;) and parse your damage. You wont be a meaningful member of the party.

NIN is a tank.
RDM is an enfeebler, backup healer/nuker.

Oh, and before I forget...

NIN/WAR with Double Attack and Berserk will always deal more damage than NIN/RDM with an En-spell on.

Parse it and see.
 
Keits said:
Villarel said:
NIN are still weaker damage dealers than the other DD. What role do you want to be in PT? DD?

I would pick any other DD out there before I pick a NIN/RDM for damage.
Click to expand...

Exactly. A PLD with a G.Sword deals 'okay' damage too... but when trying to fill a DD spot in the party, why would you ever invite a 'lesser' job (assuming a greater one were available)?

DD = RNG, DRK, MNK ~BLM, ~~~DRG
Not DD = NIN, PLD, SAM, THF, RDM

Download a non-infected parser (poor guy ; ;) and parse your damage. You wont be a meaningful member of the party.

NIN is a tank.
RDM is an enfeebler, backup healer/nuker.

Oh, and before I forget...

NIN/WAR with Double Attack and Berserk will always deal more damage than NIN/RDM with an En-spell on.

Parse it and see.
Click to expand...
ROFL, ROFL, omg thats funny, you dont think THF OR SAM's are DD's? You have been smoking too much drugs or something, cuz THF's are one of the best DD's in the game, as for SAM they do heavy dmg with a lot of WS's! RDM of course rdm isnt a DD, there a support class, everyone knows that
NIN is a tank? You have any physical proof that SE WANTED NIN's to tank? No you dont! As far as i am concerned, NIN's were MADE tanks by biased people like you. and i guess you havent A) Leveled nin high enough or B) Ever played in a party with a NIN that has Shurikens, Shurikens do a lot of friken dmg!!! Enough to keep up with a Dark Knight!
Go ahead, flame me, tell me that i am wrong and nins cant do dmg, go ahead, i wont give a crap, becuz i know that nins can be heavy dmg dealers
 
Actually... THF and SAM aren't dedicated damage dealers. They lack the tools to do so...

THF is great at closing huge skillchains, hate control, and generally pulling and survivability (especially with NIN subbed).

SAM is great at CREATING multiple skillchains in the party with only 3 melee, sometimes netting 2 SC's a fight... I've said it before, a SAM and a BLM working together is a beautiful team. SAM really can maximize a group's damage potential.

While both jobs both generate pretty good damage while fulfilling their roles, it's just a bi-product of doing what they do... in no way were either made to deal TOP damage in parties, although in some cases both jobs CAN deal top damage, but it's likely the party won't run as smooth if both jobs are having to sell out to pure damage.

Just my 2 gil.
 
Runekane said:
Stouter, I love people who don't read.

Go back to the original post.

Nowhere did I say NIN/RDM would be using any of the serious RDM debuffs, did I? :P

The en-spells are just gravy on top of the magic-attack up bonus you get at 20 RDM sub (level 40), and fast cast.

Thank for you "reading" the whole subject matter ^^
Click to expand...

I NEVER said you said you could use rdm debuffs as a nin/rdm, I was just listing what you would end up getting.

Fast cast is over-rated, and misundurstood. It's not a hugely noticeable 10-20% drop in casting time several people think it is, it's closer to 5%.

The en- spells are gravy? So now instead of doing squat damage with your katana each swing you can do squat +5?

I "read" the whole subject matter, you're still not giving an arguement as to why anyone would want a nin/rdm in their party. You don't tank, do damage, heal, or support, you are a step above the afk guy leeching exp off the party. At least with subtle blow you aren't giving the mob too much TP.

To the ninja as a DD post, why not sub ranger then and actually hit with the shurikens more frequently? You will be spending an insane amount of gil on shurikens, why not hit with them? This would also increase the accuracy of melee swings, and likely more than make up for the damage of the en- spells at 60+ when you have accuracy bonus II.
 
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