Looking for input on DD PLD setup.

[Necrosis]

So as i said before
joy/justice 100 rounds each = "AVERAGELY" 150 each (Wiki says justice has 55% double attack which would put sushi numbers up even more)

joy/justice @ 80% = 240 hits
joy/justice @ 95% = 285 hits

Lets give a base of 50 damage a hit and it becomes

12000 damage @ 80%
14250 damage @ 95%

Thats a difference of 2250 damage

Now for meat to pull level it needs to do more than 18.5% pure damage.(Not just give + 60 attack)

PS. It'd be more like 75-80 attack if you have a decent setup at all (with a BRD, I hope).
Meat damage bonus will easily surpass that.

 

[charlo]

LMAO necrosis now your just sounding like a retard.
I love the way you pull only small amounts of the post up to back up your arguement.
First your saying a pld had a base ammount attack in the mid 400s. Hmm ok
BTW i know your hard of reading ability but try harder. I stated these numbers are without a brd.
And LOL if you include minuet in the mix then both sushi and meat builds are affected, this near enough cancels minuet out so WTF did you mention that for?
Minuet would prob go more in favour of sushi anyway due to being added to extra hits via more chances of brutal procing anyway.

Also 2250 is damage mearly from the extra swings
Now count in extra swings of justice on the back of brutal, count in the extra crits of all these hits, count in the extra WS s from more TP, count in the more consistant WS damage higher acc gives. Then you have your TOTAL EXTRA DAMAGE FOR SUSHI.

 

[jamal]

For what its worth, with full attack gear (including Dusk Trousers, HQ Ledelsens) I barely crack 400 base attack on PLD/NIN. The meat bonus isn't near what it is on other jobs with a higher base attack or access to berserk.

 

[charlo]

Exactly, so with the decrease in att for acc needed for the build anyway it'd put him around what 370-380 base
To get 75-80+ att youd have to eat red curry. Who the hell would spend the money on this for meriting IDK.
Would this bring (very expensive)meat v (Cheaper and more accessable)sushi closer. hmm I'd love to see him parse it.

 

[Necrosis]

LMAO necrosis now your just sounding like a retard.
I love the way you pull only small amounts of the post up to back up your arguement.
First your saying a pld had a base ammount attack in the mid 400s. Hmm ok

Never said base, said with a BRD. When do you merit without a BRD?

And LOL if you include minuet in the mix then both sushi and meat builds are affected, this near enough cancels minuet out so WTF did you mention that for?
Minuet would prob go more in favour of sushi anyway due to being added to extra hits via more chances of brutal procing anyway.

Obviously both would be affected, but did you forget the attack bonus meat gives, too?

count in the more consistant WS damage higher acc gives.

Sushi will not give a higher WS average with a good WS set.

 

[jamal]

Sushi will not give a higher WS average with a good WS set.

That's a whole can of worms I don't know if you want to get into. Attack matters in WS's yes...but DEX, ACC, and STR all do much much more. You will undoubtedly have much more consistant weaponskills with sushi on Mamools.

Eating meat with a multi-hit weaponskill assuming 75% accuracy means you'll miss 1/4 hits on the weaponskill...I can handle increased damage per hit in DoT with a sacrifice on ACC, but even if you can boost your overall accuracy to an around 80% clip, thats still missing one hit on almost every weaponskill. Puks you'll be fine, but mamools, especially NIN / THF you'll undoubtedly miss one swing of the ws.

To prove my point...this was on WAR, but my songs were STR+ VIT+ rather than Minuet...and you see the results:

[/QUOTE]

Attack is a modifier on ws's, but it is much lower on my priority list than STR, DEX, and ACC.

 

[Itachiii]

Charlo you forgot to add the bonus from attack food so it's not a straight 2250 dmg or whatever it was over the meat eatting DD like you say it's going to be in your example. And since you like mentioning the little bonuses like DEX from sushi don't forget about the accuracy from hedgehog pie. And like Nercro already mentioned, who doesn't merit w/o a BRD so you will be nearing the attack cap that attack food would give you.

And yes you should focus on STR, DEX and acc but let's not forget the BRD that sung you one Minuet song just boosted your WS dmg by 200-300. A minuet which gives less attack than a Hedghog pie. But yes I do agree missing a hit on a WS does suck but you should be able to reach the accuracy cap on Puks, Mamool WHM/BLM and possibly the lower lvled BLU, BST and DRG as well as pets w/o sushi.

For me personally I would like to reach the 85%+ mark before I eat attack food.

 

[jamal]

And yes you should focus on STR, DEX and acc but let's not forget the BRD that sung you one Minuet song just boosted your WS dmg by 200-300.

On Rampage or Raging Rush yes. Vorpal Blade the increase is much less. This is one of the weakest multi-hit weaponskills in the game.

 

[Itachiii]

joy/justice @ 80% = 240 hits
joy/justice @ 95% = 285 hits

Lets give a base of 50 damage a hit and it becomes

12000 damage @ 80%
14250 damage @ 95%

Thats a difference of 2250 damage

So I'm bored at work and decided to factor in the bonus from attack food for you. You said each swing would be 50 dmg. With attack food let's say you average 60 dmg per hit.

60dmg * 240 = 14400 dmg

That's 150 more dmg than your sushi set-up. This isn't even including the improvements that he could make in his gear (which isn't very much but will still have a noticeable effect over a long period of time).

 

[charlo]

Attack food is not gonna boost your avarage RAW damage hits by 20%.
AND improvements in gear will affect BOTH BUILDS EQUALLY.

If we are talking about his merit build ONLY meritting with a bard everytime meat will win easily because he will get madgrial.

Also i didnt add the damage to the meat build because i dont know the formulas but i know it isnt affected soley with an increase to attack. And that attack + 65-70 wont be all you need to have 20% better raw damage.
Attack raises your consistancy in a range of damage, which is mesured between mob def, str, vit etc. From what ive read on the forums.

Edit- also you beat the base figure of just the extra hits by 150. And as i said giving a huge 20% raw damage increase to meat build.
Now add a base percent of what 10% crit rate to sushis extra hits
= 4.5 extra hits will crit will be around 100 per crit = 450 damage = +225 extra damge on sushis overall damage = sushi wins
Even before the consistantly better and extra weaponskills, and more chances brutals DA has to proc comes into play.

And again necrosis you seem to be unable to peice together all the bits of the puzzle.
Did the OP say he had a bard?
Why would i give my opinion of which was best for him if i myself added a bard to the formula if it wasn't in the OP.
Should i base my opinion on a cor or a dancer being in the party too?

 

[Necrosis]

-SUSHI-
melee cRatio=(your_atk/mob_def)-(0.050*level_difference)
=(358/327)-(0.050*(82-75)
=0.744801223

min pDIF =(1.2*cRatio)-0.5 [0 <= cRatio < 1.25]
=(1.2*0.744801223)-0.5
=0.393761468

max pDIF =1 [0.5 <= cRatio <= 5/6]

-MITHKABOB-
melee cRatio=(your_atk/mob_def)-(0.050*level_difference)
=(420/327)-(0.050*(82-75)
=0.93440367

min pDIF =(1.2*cRatio)-0.5 [0 <= cRatio < 1.25]
=(1.2*0.93440367)-0.5
=0.621284404

max pDIF =1.2*cRatio [5/6 < cRatio <= 2]
=1.2*0.93440367
=1.1212844

-DAMAGE CALCULATIONS-
w_rank(blau)=int(weapon_base_damage/9)
=int(33/9)
=3

dSTR(mith) =my_str-monster_vit
=71-67
=4

fSTR2(mith) =(dSTR+7)/2 [1 <= dSTR <= 5]
=(4+7)/2
=5.5

fSTR(mith) =fSTR2/2
=5.5/2
=2.75

dSTR(sushi) =my_str-monster_vit
=66-67
=-1

fSTR2(sushi)=(dSTR+8 )/2 [-2 <= dSTR <= 0]
=(-1+8 )/2
=3.5

fSTR(sushi) =fSTR2/2
=3.5/2
=1.75

base_D(mith)=weapon_base_damage+fSTR
=33+2.75
=35.75

base_D(sush)=weapon_base_damage+fSTR
=33+1.75
=34.75

min_damage(mith)=base_D*pDIF
=35.75*0.621284404
=22.2109174

max_damage(mith)=base_D*pDIF
=35.75*1.1212844
=40.0859173

min_damage(sush)=base_D*pDIF
=34.75*0.393761468
=13.683211

max_damage(sush)=base_D*pDIF
=34.75*1
=34.75

(22.2109174/13.683211)~62% increase in min
(40.0859173/34.75)~15% increase in max

first time fucking with ffxi formulas, check math if you're good with them prz

this is obviously with blau, using lv. 82 gcolibri numbers (before piercing bonus), and my gearsets, but i doubt it'd change drastically with his stuff.

 

[Itachiii]

Also i didnt add the damage to the meat build because i dont know the formulas but i know it isnt affected soley with an increase to attack. ?

If you are going to add in the advantages of sushi over meat and say sushi will beat meat by 2250 damage without even taking into consideration the advantages from meat don't say anything at all.

Now add a base percent of what 10% crit rate to sushis extra hits
= 4.5 extra hits will crit will be around 100 per crit = 450 damage = +225 extra damge on sushis overall damage = sushi wins

If you are going to factor in this can we factor in the higher averages on the damage of crits as well?

 

[Necrosis]

more optimum setup (1x minuet, assuming brd has merits), using OP's numbers instead of my thf's; also, a decent meat this time. +66attack from minuet.

-SOLE SUSHI cRatio/pDIFs-
melee cRatio =(your_atk/mob_def)-(0.050*level_difference)
=(453/327)-(0.050*(82-75))
=1.0353211

min pDIF =(1.2*cRatio)-0.5 [0 <= cRatio < 1.25]
=(1.2*1.0353211)-0.5
=0.74238532

max pDIF =1.2*cRatio [5/6 <= cRatio <= 2]
=1.2*1.0353211
=1.24238532

-HH PIE cRatio/pDIFs-
melee cRatio =(your_atk/mob_def)-(0.050*level_difference)
=(534/327)-(0.050*(82-75))
=1.28302752

min pDIF =1 [1.25 <= cRatio <= 1.5]

max pDIF =1.2*cRatio [5/6 <= cRatio <= 2]
=1.2*1.28302752
=1.53963302

-DAMAGE CALCULATIONS-
justice&joyeuse are both rank3 weapons, thus fSTR can range between -3 and 11.

dSTR(sushi) =my_str-monster_vit
=92-67
=25

fSTR2(sushi) =(dSTR+4)/2 [dSTR >= 12]
=(25+4)/2
=14.5

fSTR(sushi) =fSTR2/2
=14.5/2
=7.25

dSTR(pie) =my_str-monster_vit
=93-67
=26

fSTR2(pie) =(dSTR+4)/2 [dSTR >= 12]
=(26+4)/2
=15

fSTR(pie) =fSTR2/2
=15/2
=7.5

base_D(sushi) =weapon_base_damage+fSTR
=35+7.25
=42.25

base_D(pie) =weapon_base_damage+fSTR
=35+7.5
=42.5

min_damage(sushi) =base_D*pDIF
=42.25*0.74238532
=31.3657798

max_damage(sushi) =base_D*pDIF
=42.25*1.24238532
=52.4907798

min_damage(pie) =base_D*pDIF
=42.5*1
=42.5

max_damage(pie) =base_D*pDIF
=42.5*1.53963302
=65.4344033

(42.5/31.3657798 )~35% increase in min
(65.4344033/52.4907798 )~25% increase in max

 

[charlo]

Sorry for the length of time to post.

ok necrosis i've been running through the fomula the last day and a half using different meats v sole sushi.
And if the formulas you posted are correct then attack plays a HUGE part in DoT and end result.
I have to confess more than i realised.
It seems after all the calculations i did ( which i wont post it'd take this thread to 17 pages) it looks as though acc % = Meat extra damage%
So to beat your figures accuracy of meat would have to fall 25% lower than sushi acc %.(30% lower than 100% acc)
30% also being the avarage damage increase to your figures.
I worked out 200 rounds, 300 rounds all to 1000 rounds using lots of food. All calculations ends up the same.
So thanks for showing me how important attack is for DoT. I was amased at the increase of overall damage. ie the OP meat stats are 22% att= 70 cap adds ALOT MORE than 22% overall damage. i might even eat meat on my rdm now.
To the OP er just add more acc into your WS macro which includes hauby, potent belt, O hat but keep rajas on its only a small 2.5 acc loss for more overall better bonuses in both TP and WS i think.
:nyam:

 

[Celvantes]

Ok, I had a big long list of questions here... turns out Gregedor and some pages on ffxiclopedia that I didn't know existed were able to answer them.

After beating my head around some numbers and killing a whole bunch of EPs, I figured out my TP return table for Vorpal Blade for my gear setup:

1/4: 10% TP
2/4: 11% TP
3/4: 12% TP
4/4: 13% TP
4/4: 14% TP With Justice Sword proc OR Brutal Earring proc
4/4: 15% TP With Justice Sword proc AND Brutal Earring proc

With Company/Joyeuse, just lop off the 15% possibility.

Before I start playing with my gear setups, I need to know what level of accuracy is considered acceptable. I would think being able to consistently hit 3/4 Vorpal Blade swings would be good enough (hitting 12+ TP every time) - is this correct? I've heard that it takes a stupid amount of accuracy in order to land the 5th Rampage hit or the 8th Asuran Fist hit, and I don't want to sacrifice more STR than I need to. Is the last hit just a nice bonus to land every so often or is it a necessity?


And Necrosis - thanks a million for cranking all those numbers.

 

[jamal]

Ok, I had a big long list of questions here... turns out Gregedor and some pages on ffxiclopedia that I didn't know existed were able to answer them.

After beating my head around some numbers and killing a whole bunch of EPs, I figured out my TP return table for Vorpal Blade for my gear setup:

1/4: 10% TP
2/4: 11% TP
3/4: 12% TP
4/4: 13% TP
4/4: 14% TP With Justice Sword proc OR Brutal Earring proc
4/4: 15% TP With Justice Sword proc AND Brutal Earring proc

With Company/Joyeuse, just lop off the 15% possibility.

Before I start playing with my gear setups, I need to know what level of accuracy is considered acceptable. I would think being able to consistently hit 3/4 Vorpal Blade swings would be good enough (hitting 12+ TP every time) - is this correct? I've heard that it takes a stupid amount of accuracy in order to land the 5th Rampage hit or the 8th Asuran Fist hit, and I don't want to sacrifice more STR than I need to. Is the last hit just a nice bonus to land every so often or is it a necessity?


And Necrosis - thanks a million for cranking all those numbers.

Asuran fists has very randomized accuracy. Rampage / Vorpal do not. Missing 1/4 Vorpals is missing 25% of your damage. Don't accept anything less than full tp return.

 

[jamal]

...

1. Never use a dual setup with base dmg's as low as that. If joyeuse is your main-handed weapon, your dmg is going to be severely lacking.

2. Fortitude Torque is > all for sword weaponskills. I've tested it against gorgets for both WAR and pld.

3. (Using the above quote). Always adjust gear first. In all multi-hit weaponskills you do it one of two ways:

a. Load as much STR as possible. Then add acc until you are just barely getting full tp returns
b. Load up on ACC, add STR in for Acc slots until you start not getting full tp return. Go to the last full tp return setup.

4. Remember that STR does very little comparatively for Vorpal Blade. Weapon DMG > ACC > STR = DEX imo. A critical proc on 1/4 of the hits will do far more for the dmg than the STR. I HIGHLY recommend Amir Boots for weaponskilling over Heca feet. 6 acc is huge no matter the slot. Consistently high dmg > one High spike dmg when you get lucky, then the rest of your ws's being low do to acc problems.

5. Don't gimp it. Pld needs cream of the crop gear to come close to others. This means HQ's. Sniper's+1, Dusk+1 Ledelsens, the works. If using meat, sniper's+1 will yield better results on the weaponskills over time than Flame by far.

And oh yea, I'm back I guess

Bolded for emphasis from page 2.

 

[Itachiii]

Also keep in mind you get full TP for your off-hand swing on any WS. So in reality when having an off-hand weapon VB is actually a 5 hit WS. And for whatever reason the First hit and the last hit (off-hand hit) are VERY accurate in my experience as opposed to the hits in between. That is why I get 11% TP returns on RAMPAGE (17% all hits connecting not including DA) and still see some pretty big WS numbers.

1/4: 5% TP
2/4: 6% TP
3/4: 7% TP
4/4: 8% TP
4/4: 9% TP With Justice Sword proc OR Brutal Earring proc
4/4: 10% TP With Justice Sword proc AND Brutal Earring proc

Those TP returns DO NOT include the off hand hit. So basically this is what you would see if you went PLD/WAR. For /NIN just add %5 for each return for the off-hand hit assuming it connects.

 

[charlo]

Just to add
The big 14% and 15% tp returns are not from only justice procing as i once thought.
Wiki says it can not proc on a WS BUT double attack can on the first 2 hits only.
It also says justice CAN proc off a double attack trait, or IE; off brutals double attack.
This leads me to belive justice can only proc in a WS ONLY if double attack procs first. And because its doulbe attack rate is so high (Wiki says 55%) it happens alot if you get the brutals doulbe attack to kick in.
This is why people mainhand it compared to a 1 damage increase compared to joytoy.
Also using attack food over sushi for this is one thing as the rise in damage is so high.
But keeping str for the WS mod over acc to land that last hit is prob not a good thing ,as the rise in comparison would prob not be as big, as its only a 30% mod increase.
The missed hit is gonna cost you 20% damage every WS as /nin with the extra off hand hit.

 

[Necrosis]

Just to add
The big 14% and 15% tp returns are not from only justice procing as i once thought.
Wiki says it can not proc on a WS BUT double attack can on the first 2 hits only.
It also says justice CAN proc off a double attack trait, or IE; off brutals double attack.
This leads me to belive justice can only proc in a WS ONLY if double attack procs first. And because its doulbe attack rate is so high (Wiki says 55%) it happens alot if you get the brutals doulbe attack to kick in.
This is why people mainhand it compared to a 1 damage increase compared to joytoy.
Also using attack food over sushi for this is one thing as the rise in damage is so high.
But keeping str for the WS mod over acc to land that last hit is prob not a good thing ,as the rise in comparison would prob not be as big, as its only a 30% mod increase.
The missed hit is gonna cost you 20% damage every WS as /nin with the extra off hand hit.

Justice does not proc on WS in any form.