Michael Vick Indicted for Dog Fighting

[Strid]

Vick is a good QB. He is also a very good addition to the Falcons team. However, his college style of play wont cut it to long in the NFL. He shouldn't try and run the ball so much. If he can't adapt to the league, he wont be around for much longer. I adore the Falcons and absolutely love havin' Vick but them's the beans fellas, them's the beans. Last season he was hurtin' the team, from playin' in the NFL like it was college. In football you don't get the opportunity to learn the ranks, like baseball. You're either NFL compatible or nothin'.

 

[Romper]

Vick is a good QB. He is also a very good addition to the Falcons team. However, his college style of play wont cut it to long in the NFL. He shouldn't try and run the ball so much. If he can't adapt to the league, he wont be around for much longer. I adore the Falcons and absolutely love havin' Vick but them's the beans fellas, them's the beans. Last season he was hurtin' the team, from playin' in the NFL like it was college. In football you don't get the opportunity to learn the ranks, like baseball. You're either NFL compatible or nothin'.

He's been in the league since 01. You're acting like he's a rookie. He plays like that all the friggin time. He's a scrambler like Young accept doesn't have the team that Young did.

 

[meeze]

He's been in the league since 01. You're acting like he's a rookie. He plays like that all the friggin time. He's a scrambler like Young accept doesn't have the team that Young did.

So you're saying if Vick had a good team around him, he would become one of the greatest QBs of all time?

 

[Romper]

So you're saying if Vick had a good team around him, he would become one of the greatest QBs of all time?

No because his post came off as if Vick was only going into his third year, but he's not. I said he was a scrambler like Young because I can't recall a scrambler that had a better career than Young. One could say McNabb because McNabb has only had one hall of fame caliber receiver in his career. It's hard to say what kind of QB McNabb is though. You can call him a scrambler because there are times where he will run the ball more so than a pocket QB. Although McNabb is just as good in the pocket when he scrambles out.

Also Vick is now going into his 8th year of NFL experience. I don't think Vick could catch up to McNabb's or Young's numbers unless he went to a team like I don't know the Colts he could catch up.

 

[meeze]

No because his post came off as if Vick was only going into his third year, but he's not. I said he was a scrambler like Young because I can't recall a scrambler that had a better career than Young. One could say McNabb because McNabb has only had one hall of fame caliber receiver in his career. It's hard to say what kind of QB McNabb is though. You can call him a scrambler because there are times where he will run the ball more so than a pocket QB. Although McNabb is just as good in the pocket when he scrambles out.

Also Vick is now going into his 8th year of NFL experience. I don't think Vick could catch up to McNabb's or Young's numbers unless he went to a team like I don't know the Colts he could catch up.

enlighten us on how long it took Young to reach a starting position, let alone a superbowl ring from the begining of his career?

 

[Strid]

He's been in the league since 01. You're acting like he's a rookie. He plays like that all the friggin time. He's a scrambler like Young accept doesn't have the team that Young did.

I know how long he has been in the league. I also know how much time he has been in the league -YET- unable to play do to being a "scrambler". He's only there now until they can find something better. They can't support a scrambler and he's no where near a McNabb quality "scrambler" to begin with. Like I said, I don't give a shit how long he has been around, he wont last much longer if he doesn't change his game. He'll either get completely knocked out of the game or let go. I give him 3 more years if he says the same, as long as he wants if he changes.

No because his post came off as if Vick was only going into his third year, but he's not.

Third year? Why specifically third year? Matter of fact, why even any time at all? I didn't give a time frame, I just expressed concern. I'll tell you this though with as much injury time as he has had, it is probably equal to a three year stay (*sarcasm*). Also, he's NOT going into his 8th year. He was drafted in 2001...

 

[Romper]

enlighten us on how long it took Young to reach a starting position, let alone a superbowl ring from the begining of his career?

Actually Young started his NFL rookie year with the Bucs. Then I believe it was 1990 the first year Young started due to injury to Montana to only be injured himself. Vick also has 1 or 2 starts his rookie year. Also Young got his first Super Bowl ring in 1989. He got his first ring in Super Bowl 29 as a starter.

 

[Romper]

I know how long he has been in the league. I also know how much time he has been in the league -YET- unable to play do to being a "scrambler". He's only there now until they can find something better. They can't support a scrambler and he's no where near a McNabb quality "scrambler" to begin with. Like I said, I don't give a shit how long he has been around, he wont last much longer if he doesn't change his game. He'll either get completely knocked out of the game or let go. I give him 3 more years if he says the same, as long as he wants if he changes.



Third year? Why specifically third year? Matter of fact, why even any time at all? I didn't give a time frame, I just expressed concern. I'll tell you this though with as much injury time as he has had, it is probably equal to a three year stay (*sarcasm*). Also, he's NOT going into his 8th year. He was drafted in 2001...

Because the 3rd season is suppose to be a draft picks first good year after developing for 2 years. An NFL rookie takes 3 years to develop with the third being the year that they're starting to show if they will make it in the league.

 

[Valandil]

Because the 3rd season is suppose to be a draft picks first good year after developing for 2 years. An NFL rookie takes 3 years to develop with the third being the year that they're starting to show if they will make it in the league.

And you base this conclusion on what exactly?

 

[Strid]

Because the 3rd season is suppose to be a draft picks first good year after developing for 2 years. An NFL rookie takes 3 years to develop with the third being the year that they're starting to show if they will make it in the league.

I wouldn't buy that for a dollar.

 

[Romper]

And you base this conclusion on what exactly?

You obviously don't watch enough football to know thats usually when most draft picks really start to get used more because of contracts expiring and players aging. Football you is usually draft for the future not the now.

Actually Carson Palmer is a perfect example for this http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396173 third year his break out year where the Bengals made a play off push.

I don't know if I should bring up Phillip Rivers or not. He got his first starting season last year, but played behind Drew Brees. He supports contracts running out though. So... http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493041. Of course these are above average young talented players.

Chad Johnson: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235222 2nd year over 1,000 yards but 3rd year over 1000 yards AND 10 TDs.

Jamal Jewis: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187391 4th year in the league but 3rd of actually playing.

Drew Brees: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235197 4th year playing break out year.

Brett Favre: His 3rd year of starting http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1028

Just a few players thrown out there.

 

[meeze]

Actually Young started his NFL rookie year with the Bucs. Then I believe it was 1990 the first year Young started due to injury to Montana to only be injured himself. Vick also has 1 or 2 starts his rookie year. Also Young got his first Super Bowl ring in 1989. He got his first ring in Super Bowl 29 as a starter.

and remind us how many years in the league he had been? I believe it was early 80s when he was drafted. He signed to the bucs after the usfl went down in 85, and was considered worthless and traded to the niners in 87.

Basically would have continued as a back up forever had montana not been hurt.

Now, hindsight is 20/20, but no one would have considered Young a good QB until 89/90ish. Young was given the QB job in 91, but got injured after a 4/4 start. Bono was giventhejob, and kept it even after Young came back. If Bono hadn't gotten hurt in week 15, Young may haver never emerged as a starter.

The League is fickle, and to write someone off after 5 years, especially at the QB position, is plane retarded. Look at Flutie, or Plunkett, or Warner. Players have made amazing recooperations to their careers simply by moving teams, and thinking that the athletic ability of a Micheal Vick would suck everywhere just because he isn't the best in Atlanta where they have proven themselves to enjoy sucking is ridiculous.

Just look at Cunningham, a player who may be the most like Micheal Vick in the long haul. He was run out of atlanta, joined the vikings, and all of a sudden was reaclomated one of the hot QBs as he had been when he first came in the league.

 

[Valandil]

First of all, I asked you a question. Specifically, to provide objective evidence as to what you've based your "three year plan" conclusion on. Logically, this would be some kind of a statement or referenced document issued by a current/former NFL scout, GM, owner, etc. I didn't insult you, but that's okay because I've probably forgotten more about football than you'll ever know.

You obviously don't watch enough football to know thats usually when most draft picks really start to get used more because of contracts expiring and players aging. Football you is usually draft for the future not the now.

Wrong. Major League Baseball drafts "for the future" as you put it. The typical 1st-3rd round MLB draft pick spends at least 3 if not 4 seasons developing in the minor leagues. This is why MLB drafts are so erratic when it comes to their long-term payoff. A team may draft a pitcher in the first round because they need a prospective #1 or #2 starter 3 or 4 years down the road. However, 3 or 4 years down the road they may have already developed said starter and they are willing to trade away that 1st round prospect for a veteran free agent that will help them win right now.

Football and the NBA, on the other hand, draft for immediate needs. You don't draft a QB or a RB in the first round, who are going to earn something called GUARANTEED MONEY (this means they get paid regardless if they ever step onto the field), to sit on the bench for 2 or more years. You want that first or second round pick to be ready to play by the second season at the absolute latest. Nowadays it's more commonly expected for a first or second round pick to contribute right away because the terminology shouldn't be as foreign to them as it once was since the majority of Division I colleges are running pro-style offenses and defenses.

Actually Carson Palmer is a perfect example for this http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396173 third year his break out year where the Bengals made a play off push.

I don't know if I should bring up Phillip Rivers or not. He got his first starting season last year, but played behind Drew Brees. He supports contracts running out though. So... http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493041. Of course these are above average young talented players.

Chad Johnson: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235222 2nd year over 1,000 yards but 3rd year over 1000 yards AND 10 TDs.

Jamal Jewis: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187391 4th year in the league but 3rd of actually playing.

Drew Brees: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235197 4th year playing break out year.

Brett Favre: His 3rd year of starting http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1028

Just a few players thrown out there.

Now I will ask you another question. What are you determining the success/failure of your "three year plan" upon? Is it individual production or is it leading a team to regular playoff appearances or is it leading a team to Super Bowl appearances/victories within three seasons?

Really the only one out of those three that Michael Vick doesn't fit into is the Super Bowl appearances/victories. In 2002 he led the Falcons to the playoffs and in 2004 helped get them to the NFC title game (4th season in the league by the way). Therefore, you must be judging a player on individual stats? Well barring the 2003 season where Vick only played in 5 games, and the 2001 season (rookie) where he only played in 8 games (2 as a starter) he's had some pretty good numbers.

2006 Led QBs with 1000+ rushing yards and finished about 170 yards behind your boy McNabb in passing yards.
2005 Led QBs with about 600 rushing yards and finished less than 100 yards behind your boy McNabb in passing yards.
2004 Led QBs with 900 rushing yards and had about 2300 yards passing (~1500 yards less than a T.O. McNabb and the year PHL beat ATL in NFC title game)

Hmmm...well that doesn't do the trick so it must be a combination of stats AND team success right? I can come up with a list of 1st round draft picks that took more than 3 years to come into their own as NFL stars by the above criteria as well:

Troy Aikman
Jim Kelly
John Elway
Steve Young
Terry Bradshaw
Warren Moon

Nothing special about those guys...Just all Hall of Famers.


This is one other factor that is seriously flawed with your "three year plan," and that's the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of first round draft picks have average careers AT BEST. Just go back and look at all the first round drafts since 1982 and see the ratio of stars/mediocre. It's gonna be about 10% or less. The fact of the matter is, it's a crapshoot and there are too many uncontrollable variables for you say with any certainty how a player is going to develop within three years.

Wanna try again? We can play this game all day.

 

[Romper]

and remind us how many years in the league he had been? I believe it was early 80s when he was drafted. He signed to the bucs after the usfl went down in 85, and was considered worthless and traded to the niners in 87.

Basically would have continued as a back up forever had montana not been hurt.

Now, hindsight is 20/20, but no one would have considered Young a good QB until 89/90ish. Young was given the QB job in 91, but got injured after a 4/4 start. Bono was giventhejob, and kept it even after Young came back. If Bono hadn't gotten hurt in week 15, Young may haver never emerged as a starter.

The League is fickle, and to write someone off after 5 years, especially at the QB position, is plane retarded. Look at Flutie, or Plunkett, or Warner. Players have made amazing recooperations to their careers simply by moving teams, and thinking that the athletic ability of a Micheal Vick would suck everywhere just because he isn't the best in Atlanta where they have proven themselves to enjoy sucking is ridiculous.

Just look at Cunningham, a player who may be the most like Micheal Vick in the long haul. He was run out of atlanta, joined the vikings, and all of a sudden was reaclomated one of the hot QBs as he had been when he first came in the league.

1985 in the supplemental draft a.k.a the non-college players draft. Young also had previous numbers to support him being a start somewhere else from him going when Montana was tired.

Flutie was famous before he went to the NFL for when he was in college you know that hail mary pass. Otherwise Flutie never really enjoyed much success in the NFL. Jim Kelley how ever did. Flutie had Thurmon Thomas and Andre Reed for a little while. He had some nice seasons, but never achieved much in the NFL.

Warner had short lived success (1999-2002?) because he was shortly replaced by Marc Bulger then replaced by Eli Manning and now replaced by Matt Leinart. Not to forget Kurt Warner had Marshal Faulk Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt.

Randall Cunningham was never on the Falcons. He was on the Eagles until 1995 joined the Vikings in 97. He had Randy Moss and Cris Carter. Once again Randy Moss and Cris Carter. I think my point is there.

I wont say anything about Jim Plunkett he made a stellar come back, touche sir.

This is why Vick and McNabb can be compared both of shit for receivers where as the aforementioned had some pretty good receiving cores.

 

[meeze]

1985 in the supplemental draft a.k.a the non-college players draft. Young also had previous numbers to support him being a start somewhere else from him going when Montana was tired.

Flutie was famous before he went to the NFL for when he was in college you know that hail mary pass. Otherwise Flutie never really enjoyed much success in the NFL. Jim Kelley how ever did. Flutie had Thurmon Thomas and Andre Reed for a little while. He had some nice seasons, but never achieved much in the NFL.

Warner had short lived success (1999-2002?) because he was shortly replaced by Marc Bulger then replaced by Eli Manning and now replaced by Matt Leinart. Not to forget Kurt Warner had Marshal Faulk Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt.

Randall Cunningham was never on the Falcons. He was on the Eagles until 1995 joined the Vikings in 97. He had Randy Moss and Cris Carter. Once again Randy Moss and Cris Carter. I think my point is there.

I wont say anything about Jim Plunkett he made a stellar come back, touche sir.

This is why Vick and McNabb can be compared both of shit for receivers where as the aforementioned had some pretty good receiving cores.

God you're fucking dumb. Young was signed in 84 by a USFL team, but they folded after that season. He was signed in 85 by the bucs, and he sucked so they traded him. He came on in 89 a few games, and a few in 90. This is speaking on the fact that players can make turn arounds, just like warner and cunningham. Warner was in the AFL, which is a nothing league, written off. Cunningham was driven out of philly, written off. Put on teams with talent, these QBs shined. Which is the point I've been making, give Vick a supporting cast, he will out perform his current numbers.

Players often turn their carreers around when they get to new places, and it looks as if Vick will find himself with a new home soon. ESPN is guessing he'll be out of Atlanta coming up, and he may be another in the long list of players who were stagnant in their careers and turned a new leaf with a new team.

You can berate Vick all you want for doing this or that, but his raw talent puts him as one of the true pure athletes at that position. When speaking of Mcnabb, you always seem to leave out staley and the solid defenses that Philly puts together. Their teams with McNabb are always built to contend, while the Falcons have their own formula for building a team, which doesn't include winning.

 

[Romper]

First of all, I asked you a question. Specifically, to provide objective evidence as to what you've based your "three year plan" conclusion on. Logically, this would be some kind of a statement or referenced document issued by a current/former NFL scout, GM, owner, etc. I didn't insult you, but that's okay because I've probably forgotten more about football than you'll ever know.



Wrong. Major League Baseball drafts "for the future" as you put it. The typical 1st-3rd round MLB draft pick spends at least 3 if not 4 seasons developing in the minor leagues. This is why MLB drafts are so erratic when it comes to their long-term payoff. A team may draft a pitcher in the first round because they need a prospective #1 or #2 starter 3 or 4 years down the road. However, 3 or 4 years down the road they may have already developed said starter and they are willing to trade away that 1st round prospect for a veteran free agent that will help them win right now.

Football and the NBA, on the other hand, draft for immediate needs. You don't draft a QB or a RB in the first round, who are going to earn something called GUARANTEED MONEY (this means they get paid regardless if they ever step onto the field), to sit on the bench for 2 or more years. You want that first or second round pick to be ready to play by the second season at the absolute latest. Nowadays it's more commonly expected for a first or second round pick to contribute right away because the terminology shouldn't be as foreign to them as it once was since the majority of Division I colleges are running pro-style offenses and defenses.



Now I will ask you another question. What are you determining the success/failure of your "three year plan" upon? Is it individual production or is it leading a team to regular playoff appearances or is it leading a team to Super Bowl appearances/victories within three seasons?

Really the only one out of those three that Michael Vick doesn't fit into is the Super Bowl appearances/victories. In 2002 he led the Falcons to the playoffs and in 2004 helped get them to the NFC title game (4th season in the league by the way). Therefore, you must be judging a player on individual stats? Well barring the 2003 season where Vick only played in 5 games, and the 2001 season (rookie) where he only played in 8 games (2 as a starter) he's had some pretty good numbers.

2006 Led QBs with 1000+ rushing yards and finished about 170 yards behind your boy McNabb in passing yards.
2005 Led QBs with about 600 rushing yards and finished less than 100 yards behind your boy McNabb in passing yards.
2004 Led QBs with 900 rushing yards and had about 2300 yards passing (~1500 yards less than a T.O. McNabb and the year PHL beat ATL in NFC title game)

Hmmm...well that doesn't do the trick so it must be a combination of stats AND team success right? I can come up with a list of 1st round draft picks that took more than 3 years to come into their own as NFL stars by the above criteria as well:

Troy Aikman
Jim Kelly
John Elway
Steve Young
Terry Bradshaw
Warren Moon

Nothing special about those guys...Just all Hall of Famers.


This is one other factor that is seriously flawed with your "three year plan," and that's the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of first round draft picks have average careers AT BEST. Just go back and look at all the first round drafts since 1982 and see the ratio of stars/mediocre. It's gonna be about 10% or less. The fact of the matter is, it's a crapshoot and there are too many uncontrollable variables for you say with any certainty how a player is going to develop within three years.

Wanna try again? We can play this game all day.

Let me point out something you focused on the first and 2nd round of the draft where players are expected to produce right away. Last time I checked there were more than the first and second round. These are the players that sit benched and that get developed over years. The later round guys are draft to fill a needed spot that will either be in a few years because of an aging player or a player's contract will be up and they COULD develop into a better player than the player with the expiring contract.

Also all NFL contracts have a certain amount of guaranteed money. It's called the signing bonus. Where you are draft means you'll get more money and the bigger the amount of money you receive the bigger the signing bonus is to lower how much they are paid over the time of the contract. The signing bonus most notably helps with the price of the player in the 5-7 year contract which most 1st round top 10 picks can draw because they are some of the better players in the draft class.

My evidence is in the players that I listed that in the third year of their contract got more time in games and got more games started because older players either retired or went to other teams. In the NFL you draft for the need now and the future. 1st/2nd and sometimes early 3rd round picks are normally for the need now. The later ones are usually development players that are aimed to be used in the future. I should have been more specific on that fact. I would have guessed though that you would see that there are more than two rounds in any major sporting draft. I don't see Joe Whatshisface drafted in the 5th round starting at strong safety in his rookie year if there aren't any freak injuries, do you?

Wow Vick leads rushing stats against QBs. I didn't know that already, but how many scramblers are there in the league anymore? Most quarter backs are there to be passing the ball not running it. There is a position that is meant to run the ball, ya know a running back or even the full back. 2006 McNabb is hurt Jeff Garcia has an awesome year replacing an injured McNabb. 2005 McNabb was also hurt.

Troy Aikman also played on a team that had Michael Irving and Emitt Smith. Aikman was also a starter right out of the flood gates. Took Aikman 4 years one year off of my "three year plan". I don't see why people are so impressed with him. He never had a great TD/INT ratio.

The great Jim Kelly had a good rookie year had a great career. Can't say anything else about him, but didn't take him time to develop as he had two years in the USFL.

John Elway third year almost 4,000 yards through the air. Yes 22 TD and 23 INT isn't great. Almost 4,000 yards however is. He only improved after that season with his TD/INT ratio his yards didn't match that season except in 1993 where he surpassed those numbers. 3 years huh.

I have covered Steve Young enough. I wont even bother. Yes took more than three years to develop.

Terry Bradshaw I will give to you that he took longer than 3 years to develop.

Warren Moon if we really want to be picky he developed in the CFL where he had some great success. 5 back to back CFL championships. http://www.cfl.ca/index.php?module=page&id=62 scroll to the bottom his 3rd year break out year in the CFL. His 4th year in the NFL was when he finally lowered his interception rating, but also saw less yards thrown still close to almost 3,000 yards in a season. His 5th or 6th year was his first full year as an NFL QB.

You know nothing wrong with you thinking you're right when you're not. Research first. Yes there are many uncontrolled variables in drafting players. Rookies take time to develop. Three years is when they start getting in more to games they watch learn the system and develop into the player they will be over those 2 years before they start getting in more games.

 

[meeze]

Of all your evidence...only Elway and Kelley were 3 year guys? Young, Moon, Bradshaw, and Aikman all took different amounts of time...what kind of proof is that lol.

 

[Romper]

God you're fucking dumb. Young was signed in 84 by a USFL team, but they folded after that season. He was signed in 85 by the bucs, and he sucked so they traded him. He came on in 89 a few games, and a few in 90. This is speaking on the fact that players can make turn arounds, just like warner and cunningham. Warner was in the AFL, which is a nothing league, written off. Cunningham was driven out of philly, written off. Put on teams with talent, these QBs shined. Which is the point I've been making, give Vick a supporting cast, he will out perform his current numbers.

Players often turn their carreers around when they get to new places, and it looks as if Vick will find himself with a new home soon. ESPN is guessing he'll be out of Atlanta coming up, and he may be another in the long list of players who were stagnant in their careers and turned a new leaf with a new team.

You can berate Vick all you want for doing this or that, but his raw talent puts him as one of the true pure athletes at that position. When speaking of Mcnabb, you always seem to leave out staley and the solid defenses that Philly puts together. Their teams with McNabb are always built to contend, while the Falcons have their own formula for building a team, which doesn't include winning.

First of all the Eagles haven't had Duce Staley since the 2003 season. Duce Staley's first year with the Steelers was 04. Staley also has only started 2 full seasons in his career, 2002 and 1999. Duce Staley not all that good. McNabb now has Brian Westbrook who can run and catch the ball.

Vick has a star receiver now as I said earlier if he can get his passing yards up I will take him over Grossman. Until then I see him as a mediocre quarter back on a bad team. Yes he can run that does make him athletic. When you can't come close to 3,000 yards passing you aren't a good quarter back. Yes you will say combined he breaks 3,000 yards. I don't give a fuck about combined.

Rex Grossman and Thomas Jones in 2006 broke 4,000 yards of offense. Rex Grossman is a passer and Thomas Jones ran the ball. Then to throw on part timed Cedric Benson that's over 5,050 yards of offense mostly from passing yards. That's combined.

Dunn and Vick the only notable players got 4,653. That is Vick's slightly more passing yards and Vick/Dunn's combined rushing yards. With Norwood it comes out to be 5286 yards of offense mostly running.

If Vick had any raw talent he would be like McNabb able to make plays with what he has. Vick has talent, but not enough to give a big mention to. Does he have talent for running? Yes, but does he have talent at what a QB really should do? Not so much.

The Eagles aren't built to contend really. Their defense is good and McNabb's talent can lead the offense while he makes plays for the them. If Vick had raw talent he could do this.

Note Meeze we've also been talking NFL. You also forgot to mention how Kurt Warner went to Packers training camp, but was cut then was signed to the AFL. Signed in 1998 then went to NFL Europe. 1999 he was back up behind Trent Green who got injured. There is no amazing come back story just a story about some random guy got lucky because he had success in the AFL which lead him to go into the minor leagues of the NFL. Then an injury happened to the starting QB allowing for the back up to come in. Yes I am saying that NFLEurope= the minors of football.

 

[Romper]

Of all your evidence...only Elway and Kelley were 3 year guys? Young, Moon, Bradshaw, and Aikman all took different amounts of time...what kind of proof is that lol.

Also Terry Bradshaw never really had magnificent numbers. He's in the hall of fame because of the defense the Steelers had. ALTHOUGH he did play in a different era but career 212 TD/ 210 INT and many years where his TD and INT we're pretty much even. I'm sorry the only reason he's in the hall of fame is because of the super bowls his defense won him.

Moon took three years in the CFL for him to be a starter. Took him longer in the NFL yes, but were the Oilers ever really contenders?

Oh wow so Aikman took one more year to finally become a stable QB. One more season than what I have been saying. Of course YOU would make a big deal about that even when compared to Bradshaw that one year is so minute.

Also Meeze nice job failing to think that was my evidence.

 

[meeze]

Vick has a star receiver now as I said earlier if he can get his passing yards up I will take him over Grossman. Until then I see him as a mediocre quarter back on a bad team. Yes he can run that does make him athletic. When you can't come close to 3,000 yards passing you aren't a good quarter back. Yes you will say combined he breaks 3,000 yards. I don't give a fuck about combined.

This is what makes you a moron. If he has time to pass, he'll stay in the pocket and pass. If he has recievers that can get open he'll throw to them.

Aren't you somewhat baffled how a player with as much mobility as Vick gets sacked so much? If he was a run first player, he'd be gone at the first sign of trouble. He looks to pass first, and isn't able to do so because his team sucks.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Falcons release him, it could mean him getting picked up by a solid team because they'll be able to afford a player looking for a second chance, and then we'll see what he can do.