Military and homosexuals

[Tristam Green]

2. 10% of the military comes out of the closet. 95% of this group are in the Navy, and 'In The Navy' by the Village People officially replaces 'Anchors Away' as the Navy song (I'm kidding).

Good, because I'd hate to have to drive to Altus or bumfuck wherever and kick your ass for that :| My dad's a 26-year Navy veteran.

I read this article today and it brought up some points that most people don't think about when talking about this policy. http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/02/0...nce/index.html
Not everyone who is gay in the military knew that they were when they joined. Yes, she could have left the Navy much sooner but the part about her partner possibly being the last person to find out if she died was sad. Honestly I'd rather gays in the military be free to worry about their jobs and not have to spend time worrying about people finding out that they are gay.

Great article, and it drives the point home.

About her getting out early though, if it's what she knows, loved doing, and was darn good at it (she was), it's not that simple.



Really, I'd wager that your sane-minded soldiers, airmen, and sailors, (note I discounted Marines - there are no sane Marines, ever) could give a shit less if they serve with homosexuals. The Gen-Xers and Gen-Yers who act like they care are really quite insecure about themselves to begin with - I see sailors fresh from bootcamp all the time in-town at restaurants going on and acting the fool, and the biggest insult one can say to another is "with a mouth that big, you must be compensating for a really small dick" - it really is quite an effective shut-the-fuck-up tool.

It's a policy that's needed to die since its inception.

 

[Raesvelg]

Celv raises about the only valid point in the "Against" category, to be honest. It is fully reasonable to expect people to be uncomfortable getting naked in front of someone who finds them sexually attractive.

Would it be reasonable for female soldiers to protest if a male soldier was bunked with them? Sharing showers, etc? I'd wager that most of you would say yes.

It's no different in this case. So it does open up a rather significant can of worms, so to speak.

While it would not particularly bother me, (seeing as how if some poor gay bastard is far enough gone to find my hairy ass attractive, more power to him) not everyone would be quite so blase about getting nekkid in front of people.

 

[Tristam Green]

Celv raises about the only valid point in the "Against" category, to be honest. It is fully reasonable to expect people to be uncomfortable getting naked in front of someone who finds them sexually attractive.

Would it be reasonable for female soldiers to protest if a male soldier was bunked with them? Sharing showers, etc? I'd wager that most of you would say yes.

It's no different in this case. So it does open up a rather significant can of worms, so to speak.

While it would not particularly bother me, (seeing as how if some poor gay bastard is far enough gone to find my hairy ass attractive, more power to him) not everyone would be quite so blase about getting nekkid in front of people.

I'd say to those persons simply that "you sign your privacy away when you join". Simple as that. It's a known fact in military circles (Navy at least) that there is no semblance of privacy between fellow soldiers or shipmates.

 

[Halifirien]

Military compromises on the bathing facilities and does away with the extra ones, separating the orientations by staggering shower times instead of building separate facilities in a deployed environment. Hundreds of millions of dollars are wasted. Separate quartering facilities are still maintained under the same principle that men and women are not quartered together in-theater.

Typical military thinking. Spend millions of dollars on bullshit when putting up simple shower dividers would be more cost-effective so the homophobes can hide their wee-wees.

Not slamming you in particular on that one, Celv.

 

[Pompidou]

I'm in favor of 100% military equality. Ideally, men, women, gays and straights would be treated identically. This includes draft eligibility, serving in front line positions, and equality in terms of disclosure of sexual orientation - ideally no consequences. I don't think any negative consequences of complete equality should be viewed as more important than instituting it. We're talking about the USA. If we stand for nothing else, we stand for a place where anyone can rise to anything with the appropriate talent. We need to get back to that. I'm not going to say that the US is the greatest country on earth, at least anymore, but I do think that should be our goal. Other countries are more equal than we are, and that's not right. We're the country founded on equality. We should live up to it, even if it's expensive and/or inconvenient. We blow trillions of dollars to bail out corporate executives. I don't think another trillion dollars in the name of freedom and equality of our own citizens is too much to ask. This is a case where we need to act on principles. Principles are important.

 

[Celvantes]

Typical military thinking. Spend millions of dollars on bullshit when putting up simple shower dividers would be more cost-effective so the homophobes can hide their wee-wees.

Not slamming you in particular on that one, Celv.

lol, you have no idea how accurate you actually are with that statement. A part of my job is finding millions of dollars of bullshit and suggesting ways to not waste it.

That being said, when you're talking about all of the bare-base modular shower units DoD-wide, putting in dividers could literally mean millions of dollars.



Also, Tristam, my grandfather was in the navy. It's nothing personal. Gay navy jokes have been around since men started fighting on the water, because that's about when the army started making fun of them. The jokes will continue as long as navy men refer to themselves as 'seamen,' cram together in massive phallic-shaped vessels, and wear white uniforms that feature bell-bottoms. I cite this quote from Winston Churchill as evidence:

The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the lash.

Also, this happened while I was at the Air Force Academy:

The geniuses spelled out "GO NAVY" on their backs, then didn't pay attention to where they were standing afterward. The joke writes itself.

So too will airmen forever be called desk jockeys, soldiers grunts, and Marines... well, there's not enough space here to list all the names used for Marines.

 

[Strid]

Typical military thinking. Spend millions of dollars on bullshit when putting up simple shower dividers would be more cost-effective so the homophobes can hide their wee-wees.

Not slamming you in particular on that one, Celv.

This kinda reminds me of a locker room shower from high school. There were always the guys afraid to go into the shower without a firm hand cup on their junk and those of us who didn't give a rats ass who saw our junk. I don't get it, it's just a doober. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest to have Gay Joe whistle my way and say, "Hey man, nice package ya got there!" Hell, it's a compliment but it doesn't mean I gotta let him friggin' handle it.

They outta teach men how to be men and not spend anymore of our money unnecessarily to help someone who can't cope with an alternate lifestyle. I'd imagine if your on deployment and worried about the guy next to you checkin' out your junk chances are the guy in worry needs to be sent home as that is the last thing that should be on his mind.

 

[Tristam Green]

Also, Tristam, my grandfather was in the navy. It's nothing personal. Gay navy jokes have been around since men started fighting on the water, because that's about when the army started making fun of them. The jokes will continue as long as navy men refer to themselves as 'seamen,' cram together in massive phallic-shaped vessels, and wear white uniforms that feature bell-bottoms. I cite this quote from Winston Churchill as evidence:



Also, this happened while I was at the Air Force Academy:

So too will airmen forever be called desk jockeys, soldiers grunts, and Marines... well, there's not enough space here to list all the names used for Marines.

I always preferred "the Chair Force" My grandfathers were in the Army and the Air Force. I don't joke with my 89-year-old Iwo Jima veteran grandfather, because...well it's a respect thing. He's earned a reprieve from jokes.

However, my grandfather who jokes that he got a Purple Heart in the 70s for accidentally stapling his finger to some paperwork in Pleiku Air Base? (He was USAF) Yeah, he gets the full brunt of jokes ;-)

 

[Morcheeba]

A policy called 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' is bullshit and it promotes double standards. If a gay man or woman can and will be punished for coming out while serving in the military than the same punishment should befit all straight men and woman who make it known one way or another that they are straight. People are going to get close and they are going to drop hints whether they do so knowingly or not about their sexual preferences.

I agree with Raes' point about men finding it uncomfortable being naked in front of another man they know has a hard on for him, literally. Just the same as most women would find it uncomfortable. The military either needs to put up or shut the fuck up.

These are supposed to be the manliest men yet the military is ooh so worried about where their gay brothers stick their dicky birds in their personal time? Real men do not suffer such insecurities about their sexual orientations and for the most part wouldn't give a rats ass if another man found them sexy. My understanding of many men who are comfortable enough is as long as they don't cross a line which is usually a personal space issue they won't get a fat lip. But that goes without saying for almost all circumstances.

Someone else mentioned putting up partial dividers in the showers to give the cry babies some privacy. Honestly when it comes down to it there is no real difference between a straight man joking about your assets in the shower as a buddy than a gay man checking out your assets as he passing by and having personal thoughts. Personal space is measured in many ways.

 

[masterorion]

I always preferred "the Chair Force" My grandfathers were in the Army and the Air Force. I don't joke with my 89-year-old Iwo Jima veteran grandfather, because...well it's a respect thing. He's earned a reprieve from jokes.

However, my grandfather who jokes that he got a Purple Heart in the 70s for accidentally stapling his finger to some paperwork in Pleiku Air Base? (He was USAF) Yeah, he gets the full brunt of jokes ;-)

i would have more respect for them if you said your grandfather was a marine iwo jima vet. army didnt get to do a whole lot in iwo jima compared to the marines. iwo jima was the worst possible place to go in the pacific at that time.
either way, i respect ALL ww2 vets that saw any action. those were the days that had all services knee deep in dangerous environments.
what i wouldnt do to have a ww2 vet that i knew feel comfortable telling me some stories. i love ww2 history.

 

[Tristam Green]

i would have more respect for them if you said your grandfather was a marine iwo jima vet. army didnt get to do a whole lot in iwo jima compared to the marines. iwo jima was the worst possible place to go in the pacific at that time.
either way, i respect ALL ww2 vets that saw any action. those were the days that had all services knee deep in dangerous environments.
what i wouldnt do to have a ww2 vet that i knew feel comfortable telling me some stories. i love ww2 history.

Comparing the actions of one service to another is stupid, and you really ought to be ashamed to say you would respect anyone more for being something else than they were.

My grandfather didn't begin opening up and telling me about his days in the Army until about 10 years ago. He's 89 now. He was probably waiting until he figured my brother and I were old enough to handle the stories, but I will tell you straight - the soldiers on the ground might not have done as much *on* Iwo as the Marines did, but the trip there was outright Hell.

He saw an intended kamikaze get cut in half, with two halves of a pilot fall out of the plane. That's clearly stuff you just don't ever forget.

 

[masterorion]

You are reading the intentions of my post wrong. The army and airforce setup and protected the airfield on iwo along with the marines. He might have thought that was hell, but u can't compare the experience of the pacific marines to the pacific army. Now, the army in europe compared to the pacific marines is more comparible. All airmen,sailors,marines,soldiers that were in ww2, you can't not respect for knowing what they were though

 

[Tristam Green]

I didn't misread anything.

 

[masterorion]

Then take it however u want I guess. I'm going to assume he was on a naval ship at one point

 

[Lecreuset]

Apples to Oranges.
The horrid things people undergo are perspective and opinion.
Losing a limb might be the worst thing some undergo, to others, maybe being held prisoner and tortured for years might be the worst thing there.
The fact they were courageous enough to even stay with the program and follow through with their duties is respectable enough.
You're just comparing "who had it worse" dicks right now.
It's uncouth and uncessary to the general public and best saved for a smaller group of individuals you have a greater rapport with such as some other buddies who may have served where the topic might earn you bragging rights.
Agree to disagree and respect the fact these people did the duty they were called upon to do.

On topic: The world's full of double standards, doesn't make 'em right... But until more people aren't raised into them or are deprogrammed out of them, they'll be around.
To try and rectify the situation will do more damage than letting it persist for the time being and letting the gays be butthurt about this.
Your typical educated man might be in there and be able not to give it a second thought or at the very least tolerate it.
Then you get the slackjawed yokels who'd rather die or be discharged or commit some other type of neanderthal hate crime, than have a man with a same sex preference near him.
Problem is it's a numbers game and the majority most likely have that mentality.
Time's shifting where we may not need to throw as many bodies at an opposing force to overcome a situation, but they still need bodies for now...
I've got no beef with a buttpirate willing to lay his or her life down for me. I watched Miros die on his WHM in a few XP parties. <3
Perhaps they should just make a mandate where things with men and women are equal, supervised showers, physical requirements, haircuts etc.
Uniform across the board and see how true equality would work. (Yeah right...)

As is, it's a double standard against homo/hets but aren't they spelled out at the recruiter's office?
Ideally, anyone capable could serve.
Realistically, things in the Military as they are, loosely parallel the definition of Martial Law.
The easiest way to maintain order within the military is to keep the policy they have in regard to it.
Eventually should it be deemed the proper thing to do, implement changes over time to be a bit more open about the homosexual thing.
Baby steps.
Otherwise IMO you'll have more tards acting like headless chickens. .-.

 

[Tristam Green]

Apples to Oranges.

Pretty much, and that's the point.

The horrid things people undergo are perspective and opinion.

Yup.

Losing a limb might be the worst thing some undergo, to others, maybe being held prisoner and tortured for years might be the worst thing there.

Again.

The fact they were courageous enough to even stay with the program and follow through with their duties is respectable enough.

Agreed.

You're just comparing "who had it worse" dicks right now.

Not really.

It's uncouth and uncessary to the general public and best saved for a smaller group of individuals you have a greater rapport with such as some other buddies who may have served where the topic might earn you bragging rights.

This isn't even a "chicks dig scars" discussion. I see where you're going with it, but I give you a C+ for the delivery.

Agree to disagree and respect the fact these people did the duty they were called upon to do.

Ding ding ding.

 

[Uzor]

A policy called 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' is bullshit and it promotes double standards. If a gay man or woman can and will be punished for coming out while serving in the military than the same punishment should befit all straight men and woman who make it known one way or another that they are straight. People are going to get close and they are going to drop hints whether they do so knowingly or not about their sexual preferences.

I agree with Raes' point about men finding it uncomfortable being naked in front of another man they know has a hard on for him, literally. Just the same as most women would find it uncomfortable. The military either needs to put up or shut the fuck up.

These are supposed to be the manliest men yet the military is ooh so worried about where their gay brothers stick their dicky birds in their personal time? Real men do not suffer such insecurities about their sexual orientations and for the most part wouldn't give a rats ass if another man found them sexy. My understanding of many men who are comfortable enough is as long as they don't cross a line which is usually a personal space issue they won't get a fat lip. But that goes without saying for almost all circumstances.

Someone else mentioned putting up partial dividers in the showers to give the cry babies some privacy. Honestly when it comes down to it there is no real difference between a straight man joking about your assets in the shower as a buddy than a gay man checking out your assets as he passing by and having personal thoughts. Personal space is measured in many ways.

This is the correct answer.

Seriously, if a guy is so afraid of this other guy checking him out that he feel the need to kill him, he have some serious insecurity issues. As long as the gay guy don't try to touch him, where's the harm?

I mean, when I'm out clubbing, I don't take it offensive if a guy hits on me. Whether its a guy or a girl, its still a compliment. The guy find you hot, where's the insult in that? That doesn't automatically equal me being gay, nor does it mean I have to bend over.

 

[Skaw]

This is the correct answer.

Seriously, if a guy is so afraid of this other guy checking him out that he feel the need to kill him, he have some serious insecurity issues. As long as the gay guy don't try to touch him, where's the harm?

I mean, when I'm out clubbing, I don't take it offensive if a guy hits on me. Whether its a guy or a girl, its still a compliment. The guy find you hot, where's the insult in that? That doesn't automatically equal me being gay, nor does it mean I have to bend over.

It doesn't help that America is a third world country(that tries to pretend it's first world, and anyone that believes that is kidding themselves) where in 2010, beliefs of homosexuality still range from "it's a choice," to "it's a disease/mental illness."

 

[somedude]

the general populatin does not care about this issue. gay marrige, gay in the milatary, gay divorce who cares it's is there life let them do with it as they see fit. the only reason this is brought up over, and over is to divert attention form the goverment screwing up major issues. notice they only bring it up when something they do makes things worse. it is all a diverson tatic

 

[Celvantes]

It doesn't help that America is a third world country(that tries to pretend it's first world, and anyone that believes that is kidding themselves) where in 2010, beliefs of homosexuality still range from "it's a choice," to "it's a disease/mental illness."

Four Worlds
After World War II the world split into two large geopolitical blocs and spheres of influence with contrary views on government and the politically correct society:
1 - The bloc of democratic-industrial countries within the American influence sphere, the "First World".
2 - The Eastern bloc of the communist-socialist states, the "Second World".
3 - The remaining three-quarters of the world's population, states not aligned with either bloc were regarded as the "Third World."
4 - The term "Fourth World", coined in the early 1970s by Shuswap Chief George Manuel, refers to widely unknown nations (cultural entities) of indigenous peoples, "First Nations" living within or across national state boundaries.

Take a look at the definition of "First World."

Apply logic.

Even the alternative definition does not apply. The other meaning of "First World" has to do with standard of living related to cost of living, and the last I checked, the US was still at the top of that list.

If you want to say that we're politically or ideologically backwards, say so, but don't use a term when you don't know what it means.