Miracles really do happen. This is a graphic story...

[meeze]

So your telling me theres no difference in clear cutting and chopping down selected trees? Trees are plants they can be planted again, if done in a controled way, you can use the natural resource without effecting the environment. Its just when greed is the factor and you dont weigh the pros and cons of your action you just think of the profitable gain.

You aren't going to tell us fruit/veggie growers are in it for the enviornment and not greed are you?

 

[Alyada]

You hand the average person a gun and tell them to hunt there not gonna do it, you have to be raised to live that way, its not natural for humans to want to kill cause we feel compassion for things

Haha. What? Are you that serious? Killing other things is the first skill humans learned. And it's a good thing we did, because if we didn't tigers would rule the world.

Consider me a monster, but if it was me starving to death and leaving a cute & cuddly deer alive, or me killing said deer.. well, that's simple. I'd kill it.

 

[matchuu]

You aren't going to tell us fruit/veggie growers are in it for the enviornment and not greed are you?

theres nothing wrong with making money, but you gonna compare power bar to odwalla? one of them tries there best to use organic materials, while the other is used with cheapest materials possible to make the largest profit.

and your taking this from my clear cutting comment, have you ever been to WA or OR before? they used to be forests across those two states but now just wilderness and grass. You can go thru a forest and select certain trees and cut away and still have a forest there when you leave, clear cutting is a entire area chopped with no trees what so ever left. but one of those methods takes less time and less labor and makes less money thats why only certain companys actually take the better route ignoring what potential profit gain they can get at the expense of the environment.

 

[matchuu]

Haha. What? Are you that serious? Killing other things is the first skill humans learned. And it's a good thing we did, because if we didn't tigers would rule the world.

Consider me a monster, but if it was me starving to death and leaving a cute & cuddly deer alive, or me killing said deer.. well, that's simple. I'd kill it.

so would I but your not starving to death, neither am I. Im sayin ppl have other options but rather not take them due to change in lifestyle.

 

[Uzor]

Haha. What? Are you that serious? Killing other things is the first skill humans learned. And it's a good thing we did, because if we didn't tigers would rule the world.

Consider me a monster, but if it was me starving to death and leaving a cute & cuddly deer alive, or me killing said deer.. well, that's simple. I'd kill it.

Yes, killing others are naturall. We're taught that killing is bad, hence why we don't do it. From birth we're taught right and wrong, morals, ethics etc. We do, however, have a natural "switch", called sympathy and empathy, that prevents us from killing when we do not need to. That switch is taught by our parents, though. Which is why people whom lack contact from other people, by, as an example, having been locked inside a room their whole life, have slightly lower empathy for things. They do still have it, which suggests that everyone have a basic level of empathy, which is then strenghtened or weakened by interacting with other people.

Cats are the same way. They know that hurting other cats unless you need to are bad. Playing with their siblings strenghten their empathy, and they learn how much they can bite and claw someone without hurting them.

That's why you normally blame all problemd on the parents, due to lack of love, social interactions etc. Parents work on strenghtening their basic instincts. Soem people, however, are born with no empathy, sympathy etc. And in these cases, its normally not the parents fault. That's not to say that people without empathy will turn in to souless monsters, though. A lot of people that completely lack empathy are sad that they can't have feelings. They can't understand what people feel, and they have no idea what facial expressions mean. They can't understand what hurts peopel and what doesn't. They have a kind of fake empathy, in that they absorb what other people do, and "learn" about it, and can thus know what hurts and what doesn't, both mentally and physically. The most horrible one, though, is when people are born without feelings. Interviews with people like this, they say that they know what they should feel, they just don't feel it. When they win a contest, they know they should be happy from what they've been taught. They feel no happiness, though.

 

[Alyada]

so would I but your not starving to death, neither am I. Im sayin ppl have other options but rather not take them due to change in lifestyle.

You were putting it up as a hypothetical situation. You can't expect to place your reader in something like that and not get one in return. How many people are given a gun and told to "hunt?"

Re-think your examples before you write them down.

 

[meeze]

so would I but your not starving to death, neither am I. Im sayin ppl have other options but rather not take them due to change in lifestyle.

Options is the key word. I choose this lifestyle. I like meat, I will continue to eat meat. I don't care if the cow isn't happy when it dies. Just like you don't care what gets killed when your lettuce is being harvested by a big ass machine.

Hey, why don't you grow your own food? And not "I have a garden" bullshit. Grow everything you eat, and while you're at it, make your own clothes, don't use any sort of transportation. Your argument of killing your own meat is ridiculous.

 

[matchuu]

Yes, killing others are naturall. We're taught that killing is bad, hence why we don't do it. From birth we're taught right and wrong, morals, ethics etc. We do, however, have a natural "switch", called sympathy and empathy, that prevents us from killing when we do not need to. That switch is taught by our parents, though. Which is why people whom lack contact from other people, by, as an example, having been locked inside a room their whole life, have slightly lower empathy for things. They do still have it, which suggests that everyone have a basic level of empathy, which is then strenghtened or weakened by interacting with other people.

How about we agree to disagree.

On your theory that its natural to want to hunt for food. My father and older bros, hunt/fish all the time, while i think its barbaric how did that happen?

My dad was raised by my grandpa on a farm, and since he was very young he was brought hunting, and my dad did the same with my older bros, but while i grew up in a city. If your theory is correct i would have a natural inclination to want to go with my family and shoot deer, but I dont. Why because i wasnt brought up around it, if it was natural for humans to want to hunt like other lesser animals, there would be no vegitarians in the first place.

You act like were pre destined to live this savage lifestyle.

 

[matchuu]

Options is the key word. I choose this lifestyle. I like meat, I will continue to eat meat. I don't care if the cow isn't happy when it dies. Just like you don't care what gets killed when your lettuce is being harvested by a big ass machine.

Meeze thanks i needed that laugh, i promise to look into my produce more, to check for blood. I think your refering more to harvesting grain.

 

[Alyada]

On your theory that its natural to want to hunt for food. My father and older bros, hunt/fish all the time, while i think its barbaric how did that happen?

I think it's pretty barbaric as well, but you have to realize that Hunters are there to preserve a balance between a distinct animal population and the amount of land they have to roam.

Consider this, humanity moved in and started cultivating crops and herding livestock. Soon, scavangers and hunters like coyotes and wolves moved into the land and began taking our 'free meals.' We kill the wolves and relocate them to an unhinabited area. Unfortunately, with nothing to kill them, the deer population explodes. With so many deer, humanity is forced to move in and hunt deer to keep the population under control.

People had two choices: employ a specific mililtia to hunt deers, or allow people who want to hunt with their own cash and their own time. Obviously, you can see what the decision was.

Personally, I don't mind hunting when I look at it in this light. I'd rather have a deer die from a one-hit-shot to its chest, than watching the entire population die from starvation. That's a horrible and cruel death.

You act like were pre destined to live this savage lifestyle.

We are. If humans didn't go into industry, we'd still be killing our livestock for food just like we are now. We needed protien when humanity was first budding, and we got it from animals. If you think we can change that now, I'm sure we can, but the meat industry is a multi-billion dollar service and it's so ingrained in our culture and lifestyle that it's not going to change.

 

[matchuu]

We are. If humans didn't go into industry, we'd still be killing our livestock for food just like we are now. We needed protien when humanity was first budding, and we got it from animals. If you think we can change that now, I'm sure we can, but the meat industry is a multi-billion dollar service and it's so ingrained in our culture and lifestyle that it's not going to change.

I changed in a matter of weeks and im not alone, and i was in culinary business. Its rare for me to go out to eat and have a hard time finding a vegitarian option, meaning that resturaunts are changeing there menus to fill the needs of people like me, cause theres enough vegitarians to make profit off of.

Im done tho I got what i wanted, uzor said "I dont care" many times. Cause i hate when ppl pretend to care but dont really. Factory farms get away with what they do for one simple reason people dont care that is all. ME ME ME! is the mentality of the majority.

 

[Uzor]

How about we agree to disagree.

On your theory that its natural to want to hunt for food. My father and older bros, hunt/fish all the time, while i think its barbaric how did that happen?

My dad was raised by my grandpa on a farm, and since he was very young he was brought hunting, and my dad did the same with my older bros, but while i grew up in a city. If your theory is correct i would have a natural inclination to want to go with my family and shoot deer, but I dont. Why because i wasnt brought up around it, if it was natural for humans to want to hunt like other lesser animals, there would be no vegitarians in the first place.

You act like were pre destined to live this savage lifestyle.

You didn't read anything I wrote, did you?

We're born with empathy, to feel empathy, to not wanting to kill in vain. The social interactions you had made you believe that killing animals at all is wrong. Your father didn't constantly go out to hunt, nor did your father talk about killing animals.


In every human's life, there are a select key people that affect you and shape you in to the way you are. For a normal human, with both parents, its normally your mother, father, and a few others. If someone get bullied during school, those people can also be key people to some extent, but not entirely. Key people isn't just people that you like or love, its people that actually change your life in one way or another Both possitive and negative. If you go to a psychiatrist, they'll sometimes ask you which these people are. However, these key people doesn't shape everything about you. A lot of people are also affected by the country as a whole, and the people that live in it. If a majority do something, there's a large chance you'll do something too. Later on in life, your experiences just build up on your curent oppinions and stances on moral issues, they're rarely changed completely.

Most people say children are neutral when they're born, and their experiences etc. mold them in to what they are. That is somewhat wrong though. While yes, we're completely free of opinions when we're born, we still have our instincts. And killing is one instinct. I mentioned earlier.

You seem to be somewhat confused as to what instincts can be. There's "active" and "passive" instincts. I honestly don't know the english word for them, so I'll just call them that. Active instincts are instincts you're born with. Passive instincts are instincts that you're taught, and that evolve with life experiences. An example of an active instinct is the hunt for food, what your mouth is for, how to move your hands, arms etc. A more common example is a certain bird, which once born, kills the other birds in the nest, in order to survive himself. This bird is a leech, and isn't actually of the same species as the other birds. The parents will then feed this bird untill it is old enough to fly away. An example of a passive instinct, is speach. Monkeys ability to warn other members of the group of predators is a good example. Active instincts can't be "trained away". Passive instincts can be "trained away" and changed. Human's sense of smell, hearing, sight etc. are all examples of passive instincts, if they can be called that. We normally rely on hearing and sight more then smell. There are several other instincts that we don't actively use, like the sense of danger etc. that we don't need all that much in today's society. If you plug your ears and close your eyes and try to follow a smell trail, you'll get better and better on it. If you do it from birth, you'd be an expert, but never as good as animals that rely more on their smell, such as dogs, as they are physically better built for it.

As for hearing, a good example are musicians, which will have an easier time telling the difference between different tones etc. Artists, such as painters etc. will have an easier time telling the difference between colors, and will more often then not see more colors. That's because they train their senses more. One can say your senses are a form of instincts, some might not agree though. I beg to differ, though, as I'd liek to say it is. The most classic instincts for a human are the sex drive and aggression, which is where killing comes in.

You can actually get somewhat interresting results by mixing instincts. An example are birds running around on the ground, dragging one of their wigns to the ground. This is most often seen when predators are near their child's nest. You might think they're pretending to be hurt in order to drive the predator away from the nest. In reality, though, its a fight between two strong instincts. The first one is to fly away, and the second one is to protect their offspring. This will cause them to not actually fly away, but it will stil lcause them to have one of their wings dragging aroudn on the ground. Its not a tactical choice they make, but it is for their benefit.

Fairness is also considered an instinct to some extent. The instinct to hurt ones self interrest in order to protest against unfair treatness of others.

I changed in a matter of weeks and im not alone, and i was in culinary business. Its rare for me to go out to eat and have a hard time finding a vegitarian option, meaning that resturaunts are changeing there menus to fill the needs of people like me, cause theres enough vegitarians to make profit off of.

Im done tho I got what i wanted, uzor said "I dont care" many times. Cause i hate when ppl pretend to care but dont really. Factory farms get away with what they do for one simple reason people dont care that is all. ME ME ME! is the mentality of the majority.

This quote in particular is interresting. Everyone is egoistical in the ground, including you. You're a vegetarian because you feel better. I eat meat because I feel better. Its two sides of the same coin. We both do it because we feel better.

Everyone is egoistical. Everythign we do is to benefit ourself, that's why we have the fairness instinct so the world won't be completely egoistical, but we still do it for a somewhat selfish reason. If you give to charity, you do it to feel good about yourself. In the animal world, animals that take care of their offspring will do it untill they're in front of the option to either kill themselves or the offspring. If a predator comes to a cat's camp, and the cat mother feel she's in serious danger along with her offspring, she will leave her offspring to their death. That, however, is still beneficial to the species as a whole. If the mother dies, there's a huge chance the offspring will die too. If the offspring dies, there's a larger chance that the mother will survive, and can later produce more offspring. The same does not apply to humans, though, but we still possess the last instinct of selfishness. Of actively chosing things that benefit yourself.

Instincts can be overwritten by intelligence. The stronger the instinct, the harder it is for intelligence to overwrite it. Bodily functions such as eating, peeing etc. are all in the core of us, and are vital to our, and the species, survival. The only other instinct that lurks this deep in our soul is selfishness. That is the only instinct, aside from bodily functions, that we can not overwrite. That is how important it is for survival.

Edit: And yes, we are predetermined to live this savage lifestyle. Its in human nature. Aggression is one of our instincts. Alyada brings up a good point. I was actually going to bring it up earlier but forgot. I had a long post thought out when I started this edit, sadly, I forgot it all. So I'm off to bed to see if it hits me again in my sleep.

edit2: did a quick googling. The words I was thinking of in the instinct part was , I believe, intuition, instinct and imprinted instincts.

 

[Romper]

<3 that song! Now it's in my head the rest of the afternoon though! -.-



You did say most people that get abortions are sluts, that may not have been a direct insult to anyone here but it was still calling names.



I'm not going to argue foie gras with you because to be honest I think that's a pretty disgusting practice. However, if you are concerned over how the animals are treated prior to slaughtering it's not exactly difficult to go and purchase your meat directly from small local farmers. Generally you have to buy it in larger bulk but you can see the area that the animals live in. Most of these farms don't treat their animals badly at all.^^



Thank you Meeze for explaining what I was trying to say...a bit better than I did.



Lol I had a cat once that not only didn't mind the spray bottle, he also loved to lay in running water and play in it... and if you didn't keep the toilet seat down he would go lay in it (eww). He is around 18+ pounds (not fat at all just big) so imagine if he weren't declawed the amount of damage he would do. If I had pictures I would show you where he would exercise his claws on the corner of the couch, suffice it to say the couch died a horrible, horrible death.



Saying that you can't have a decent conversation just because you're on the internet is a copout. You can have perhaps an even more decent conversation here because everything is written and recorded so you can look at what was said exactly rather than trying to remember an hour later what points the other person made.

Edit: Also just wanted to note that I'm not condemning you for not eating meat Mat, that's a commendable decision imo (although I could never do it because I <3 meat too much!). I'm just pointing out that there are alternatives to the large slaughterhouses.

Who the hell cares about the rest of this post Kero loves meat everyone! Form the line behind me! Oh!

 

[Kerowynn]

I dont eat plants or animals because they are both living things.

/nod....Dun only eats that sliced cheese that you make grilled cheese with! You can't tell me there's anything actually real in that nummy stuff; it's all plastic! :nyam:

Haha. What? Are you that serious? Killing other things is the first skill humans learned. And it's a good thing we did, because if we didn't tigers would rule the world.

I have to admit I giggled a bit at tigers ruling the world....lolkitties.

Who the hell cares about the rest of this post Kero loves meat everyone! Form the line behind me! Oh!

....sooooo kicking your ass Galka! :nono:

 

[Tagrineth]

You hand the average person a gun and tell them to hunt there not gonna do it, you have to be raised to live that way, its not natural for humans to want to kill cause we feel compassion for things. Id like to see all these ppl that eat chicken actually take and kill a chicken themselves and then eat it. Only ppl that have been raised around killing get used to it they scar there mind to not feel hurt for that anymore. Just like you can train a soldier to kill and not feel guilty for his actions, but I myself would never kill anyone or feel the need to, why cause its a natural instinct to feel killing is wrong.

Just like a child at first will fear seeing violence on TV but after seeing it over and over again he will accept as the norm the same is being a butcher, no one is born with the inclination to chop up flesh, most ppl hate the sight of blood alone, but after seeing maybe his parents or someone else do it over and over you get used to it and think it is the norm.

Handing someone a gun and telling them to hunt...

You know, the average person might refuse, but not because it's not part of human nature, but because it's an evolved sensibility that we've been trained not to kill anything.

Just out of curiosity, how many bugs have you flattened in your lifetime?

 

[RoM]

pffft, who needs this hunter gatherer mentality shit?

It was just the driving force behind the entirety of civilization.

Truth be told if i had to kill it myself and do the dirty work i'd be less inclined but only because i was raised with the option not to, like most of you. If you've got great or greatx2 grandparents i'm sure they'll tell you a different story simply because they didn't have the option.

Vegans enjoy their lifestyle based on a foundation of meat-eaters, because that's who got us where we are today. Angry, driven, violent, meat-eating hunter gatherers looking for a better way to get as much of everything as possible so they could afford to be picky 3000 years in the future.

Also, compassion isn't ingrained into humanity. It's taught. Cavemen didn't give a shit about how cute their next meal was or how it felt about being killed and consumed. They cared about their starving families. This is quite easily demonstrated by putting a cute, small, preferablly furry animal near an infant and letting the mayhem insue. Were it a trait we were born with the infant might be less likely to terrorize the animal on any level, as no trait exists and no definitions of cruelty or compassion are programmed into the base set of instincts we're given at birth have fun watching the mayhem, or just take my word for it.

 

[Raesvelg]

What was the line? "Meat is Murder, and murder tastes pretty fucking good."

Short answer: I like to feast upon the blackened carcasses of higher order animals. I've eaten at least something from just about every one of gods' creatures that I've had the opportunity to, and intend to continue doing so.

Long answer: We're evolved to eat meat. Anyone that says differently is lying to you. Feeling compassion for animals is, as has been repeatedly pointed out, something you're taught. It's NOT instinctive. My view of animals is pretty odd, when you get right down to it. Some of them I like, some of them I pity, some of them I consider dangerous pests and exterminate ruthlessly. Perhaps that's something I picked up from my father. Watching your dad kill baby bunnies with a sharpened hoe can be a formative event of your childhood I guess.

Ironically, the vegetarian lifestyle requires the deaths of a large variety of animals, both from accidental deaths during harvesting and intentional deaths to preserve the aforementioned harvest. If everyone ate nothing but plant products, we'd STILL have to kill enormous numbers of animals just to grow enough plants for us to eat.

(On a side note, it was disturbing for me to read the account of a pair of vegan parents that effectively murdered their infant child by refusing to give it any sort of animal product. Rather than even breastfeed the child, they tried to raise it on soy milk and fruit juice. Needless to say, it sickened and died.)

 

[matchuu]

It was based off of agriculture not hunting, you guys are comparing a fucking theory of what happend in early mankind developement times where there was no written proof of how they lived. Any kind of world power in history had the best system of agriculture, take Egypt for example one of the first major powers in written history, depended on the nile to water there crops not provide animals to eat. They worshiped most of the animals around so wtf were they eatting? Meat has been untill modern day a delicacy eating not so often due to the animals being more important for crop work. It wasnt readily availible then cause they didnt have genetic breeding and forced fertilization.

If you guys wanna base your modern day lifestyles, to what we "think" happend thousands of years ago, so be it. But the plow was the turning point for humankind, but im not comparing myself to a caveman.

 

[RoM]

It was based off of agriculture not hunting, you guys are comparing a fucking theory of what happend in early mankind developement times where there was no written proof of how they lived. Any kind of world power in history had the best system of agriculture, take Egypt for example one of the first major powers in written history, depended on the nile to water there crops not provide animals to eat. They worshiped most of the animals around so wtf were they eatting? Meat has been untill modern day a delicacy eating not so often due to the animals being more important for crop work. It wasnt readily availible then cause they didnt have genetic breeding and forced fertilization.

If you guys wanna base your modern day lifestyles, to what we "think" happend thousands of years ago, so be it. But the plow was the turning point for humankind, but im not comparing myself to a caveman.

http://ancienthistory.mrdonn.org/EarlyMan.html

On homo-erectus.

It took man another 200,000 years to grow up. Homo erectus man was about the same size as modern humans, although they only had two-thirds the size of our brains. Their tool-making skills were considerably improved. Their weapons included stone axes and knives. Homo erectus man was probably the first hunter.

On homo-sapiens.

By this time, man had become very capable hunters/gatherers, and had scattered all over the world. Scientists have found remains of these early people in Europe, Asia, America, Africa, all over, really. Life was harsh, but they had plenty of food and warm shelter. Many members of these groups lived to a very old age. The Homo sapiens sapiens who lived in Europe were called Cro-Magnon.

http://www.fi.edu/brain/fats.htm#top *edited for better link.

No need to pull quotes out on that one.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/diet.htm

While it is difficult to believe that certain meats, such as fish and wild poultry did not show up fairly frequently on the tables of common people, we are told by Egyptologists that it was for the most part only the rich who regularly feasted on most meat. The poor ate geese, ducks, quails, cranes and other species, and from the New Kingdom onward raised domesticated fowl. Most edible fish from the Nile were consumed, though some fish, such as the genera Lepidotus and Phragus and a few others were forbidden because of their connection with the myth of Osiris. In some locations, even the Nile perch was worshipped, and therefore never eaten. While fish were roasted or boiled, most frequently they were salted and preserved, or dried in the sun.

I'm not trying to be a tool or anything but it's kinda hard not to come off that way with you going on about people making blind assumptions. I mean with that kind of attitude i'm less than optimistic to hear your thoughts on evolution. It's all well and fashionable to call eating meat on large a 'new' thing but the fact of the matter is it's ingrained into just about everything on the planet as part of the 'kill or be killed' primordial set or rules. It just so happens meat isn't just for rich folks exclusively in recent (which is an entirely relative perspective) history. It also doesn't account for cruelties visited upon animals, particularly those you mentioned in the egyptian culture, which were either farmed to death continuously or used in often violent and at the very least non-peta approved religious rights.

Now as far as the genetic alteration and farming conditions and whatnot, i'll concede those points entirely as they're more than justified. However i'm content to live the life of that crap being out of sight out of mind.

Ah, modern civilization. You can have your steak AND eat it too.
In google we trust.

Edit for Uzor: I didn't even need to read the bulk of this thread so much as this last page or so, you're dead on. I've seen numerous documentaries on the subject of diet diversity and the developmental effects it had on the brains of early human species. You know me, man, sources or death.

I don't wanna paint myself bashing vegitarians. It's cool if you can survive on bean sprouts, just don't vilify me for being what i am. It's not as though i come barging in in the middle of your lettuce wrap to bitch about the decreasing ammounts of oxygen in the world. Fuck man, those plants could be making air you selfish prick. :roll:

 

[Uzor]

It was based off of agriculture not hunting, you guys are comparing a fucking theory of what happend in early mankind developement times where there was no written proof of how they lived. Any kind of world power in history had the best system of agriculture, take Egypt for example one of the first major powers in written history, depended on the nile to water there crops not provide animals to eat. They worshiped most of the animals around so wtf were they eatting? Meat has been untill modern day a delicacy eating not so often due to the animals being more important for crop work. It wasnt readily availible then cause they didnt have genetic breeding and forced fertilization.

If you guys wanna base your modern day lifestyles, to what we "think" happend thousands of years ago, so be it. But the plow was the turning point for humankind, but im not comparing myself to a caveman.

It is impossible to live on only the seads that the nile provides you with. The nile only gave them more food, such a bread.

I've written this before, and as I'm getting ready for work, I'l write the short version of it. Early in our development, we stalked predators and stole their food. Due to the high nuitritions of of meat, it allowed our brain to get a boost in both size, development and intelligence. This allowed us to slowly develop more tools, giving us an edge over our prey. Eventually, we didn't need to steal the food of others. We could work in group and communicate in more advanced ways, which allowed us to catch and kill our own food.

Egypt wasn't the begining of mankind. Egypt was actually extremely close to our own lifetime if you compare it to the rise of man. The plow wasn't the turning point. Language was. Meat simply contributed to the development of it.

Humans are originally gatherers. That doesn't mean that we only eat vegetables and seeds. It means we collect things and save for future use. It is true that we rely on vegetables as our main source of nourishment, but we need the nourishment that meat provides us with in order to live a full life. The brain requires a huge ammount of nourishment and minerals in order to funcion properly, and with the introduction of meat, it got what it needed and more, which allowed it to develop. Different things in meat and fish do things to the brain. Omega 3 as an example, which exists in fish oil, makes it easier for us to remember things. Meat, as a whole, was one of the turning points of mankind, since it gave us the boost we needed to get ahead of the other species.

edit: saw that RoM answered with quotes from other things after I had posted. He took them from google though, so he cheated!