Miracles really do happen. This is a graphic story...

[matchuu]

Now as far as the genetic alteration and farming conditions and whatnot, i'll concede those points entirely as they're more than justified. However i'm content to live the life of that crap being out of sight out of mind.

Thank you thats all I needed to see. Ignoring reality.

 

[matchuu]

It is impossible to live on only the seads that the nile provides you with. The nile only gave them more food, such a bread.

Humans are originally gatherers. That doesn't mean that we only eat vegetables and seeds. It means we collect things and save for future use. It is true that we rely on vegetables as our main source of nourishment, but we need the nourishment that meat provides us with in order to live a full life. The brain requires a huge ammount of nourishment and minerals in order to funcion properly, and with the introduction of meat, it got what it needed and more, which allowed it to develop. Different things in meat and fish do things to the brain. Omega 3 as an example, which exists in fish oil, makes it easier for us to remember things. Meat, as a whole, was one of the turning points of mankind, since it gave us the boost we needed to get ahead of the other species.

Flax Seed Oil 1 tbsp
Omega 3 55% daily value
Omega 6 14% daily value
Omega 9 19% daily value

You guys can keep bringing up history of how a desperate mankind was fighting for survival all you want, but we are not those people anymore we have grown past the use of animals we dont need to use them, we have other alternatives.

So keep on making long ass posts with the same shit over and over again, when all you have to say is I have no reason to eat meat other than I like how it tastes.

 

[Uzor]

Flax Seed Oil 1 tbsp
Omega 3 55% daily value
Omega 6 14% daily value
Omega 9 19% daily value

You guys can keep bringing up history of how a desperate mankind was fighting for survival all you want, but we are not those people anymore we have grown past the use of animals we dont need to use them, we have other alternatives.

So keep on making long ass posts with the same shit over and over again, when all you have to say is I have no reason to eat meat other than I like how it tastes.

I never argued the point that humans can live without meat nowadays. You say that mankind never needed meat, which is completely wrong. Killing is in our genes.

However, using "We dont need meat now" to justify your reason for not eating meat, and for everyone else to not eat meat, and as your reason to show how how hypocritical we are, is just stupid. If everyone stopped eating meat, the ecological system would get completely changed. Would become an influx of other animals, which would take over our space to live in. In order to avoid this, we'd still need to kill those animals. There would still be the killing of animals. This can never be avoided. no matter how may people turn in to vegetarians. We'd also need larger fields to grow vegetables on, and in order to get these fields, we'd need to kill animals to prevent them from eating our greens, and we'd have to cut down forests in order to get the space needed to grow vegetables.

edit:

Thank you thats all I needed to see. Ignoring reality.

You mean you didn't know they genetically modify vegetables? Oh, they do. Thy modify them to be able to grow under different circumstances, such as dry ground, or hotter/cooloer air. They modify them to produce more food, modify them to be resistant against different plagues, modify them to be resistant against certain insects. Not to mention the sick ammount of poisons they pour on them to kill all the insects, which later get absorbed by the earth and in to the groud water and other nearby water resources, resulting in sour water, poisonous water etc. which have huge effects on local animal wellfare.

Yes, there are options. Which, as I stated before, is why you should stick to ecological food that grows naturally. These options are more expensive, though, and not many people are willing to spend more money for the same thing, which often taste a bit worse aswell. There are ecological meat, eggs etc. too. So you're WAY out in the ocean if you think vegetables is the only pure food, and all animals get tortured to death.

 

[meeze]

It wasnt readily availible then cause they didnt have genetic breeding and forced fertilization.

because there are no genetically engineered tomatos or other fruits right?

Anything the meat industry does, the agricultural industry does as well.

 

[Uzor]

Wait, you mean you didn't know why several bird species almost got extinct because of vegetables? Its quite easy actually. The antacids went in to nsects, fish etc. If a fish contains 1% antacid, when the bird eats the fish, it gets all of its antacid inside of it. But the bird eats several animals with antacid in it, which meas the bird will get more antacid inside of it. Naturally, this is not a good thing. If humans then eat the fish, they get the same affect. Humans are more resistant, though. The bird's eggs then got weaker, which caused them to break extremely easily. This lead to several species extinction. Genetically modifying them allowed for the removal of antacids, which lead to several species recovery.

So yes, there are genetically modified crops. Just like there are genetically modified cows.
Granted, the real reason the birds survived was because of law forbdding the usage of the most dangeroud antacids. But antacids still affect local life. Nowadays, the largest threat to animal life is due to heavy metals, and people throwign batteries, and other thigs containign these in your normal garbage, which causes it to leak out in the nature.

 

[meeze]

This wasn't to me right? cause I said anything (including genetic enginering) the meat racket does, the veggie racket does as well.

 

[Uzor]

This wasn't to me right? cause I said anything (including genetic enginering) the meat racket does, the veggie racket does as well.

No, it was in response to Matchuu's "Thank you thats all I needed to see. Ignoring reality." comment. Which I assume was Matchuu saying RoM ignores reality, rather then himself ignoring reality.

 

[Raesvelg]

The prevalence of meat in the human diet throughout history is actually a rather strange topic.

In the beginning, we eat a lot of meat. The male of the species is noticeably more evolved as a hunter than the female. It's a fairly well-supported theory that the reason we evolved to be the way we are was to make us better hunters.

It doesn't take much in the way of brains to sneak up on a blade of grass.

So, for tens upon tens of thousands of years of human history, we eat a lot of meat. Then someone gets the brilliant idea to start force breeding those grains we've been supplementing our diet with. Well, it might not have been an intentional decision, but the net result was that we did our second spot of genetic engineering (which is what selective breeding IS for all the fucking luddites out there) and had a grain that was productive enough to be worth farming.

At this point, certain areas being to practice agriculture, usually river basins and highly productive plots of land. And in the process of becoming "more civilized", they introduce concepts like 'poverty', 'castes', and 'slavery'. If you're poor, you don't get much meat to eat, because you're not allowed to hunt for it yourself on the land that the 'king' owns. You're typically somewhat dependent on the few animals you do have for other things, like milk, since safe drinking water is pretty much nonexistent. Sure, you slaughter the occasional fatted calf, and you get at least some meat over the course of the year, but typically it's small portions, or glutting yourself at a feast.

And THIS state of affairs continues for a tiny fraction of the previous state of human development until we come to the industrial age, when suddenly it's cost effective enough to raise grain to feed to cows to feed to people, and meat is cheap to the point that it's utterly ubiquitous. Sure, rich people still stratify themselves by eating "better" cuts of meat, but to be honest, that's a purely subjective viewpoint.

Now, bear in mind that some societies never bothered with the planting of grains. The North American Plains Indians are a good example, the various steppe nomads of Asia are another. The Inuit are a great example, because a significant fraction of them still live in the traditional fashion, which is to say they get the VAST majority of their calories from meat. And fat, but that's beside the point. Try to tell an Inuit to live a vegan lifestyle and he'd probably club you to death like a baby seal.

So yes, we're evolved to eat meat. If you think otherwise, you're a fucking idiot. Agriculture has indirectly brought about more deaths than cancer, and unleashed all the evils of modern society upon the world. Please, stop agriculture before it kills again.

Incidentally, as a general rule, most educated vegans will admit that they'd probably be slightly healthier with meat in their diet. There are some things it's a lot harder to get from plants.

 

[matchuu]

I never argued the point that humans can live without meat nowadays. You say that mankind never needed meat, which is completely wrong. Killing is in our genes.

I never said mankind never needed meat, they had no other option then, stop tryin to twist my words. Stop comparing then and now, especially when you basis is on a theory, or educated guess.

Its completely moronic you guys think that the eco system would colaspe without mandkinds influence, what do you think when settlers found new areas and the place was a wilderness cause the animals ate all the plant life cause humans wernt there to kill them so they couldnt balance out? Animals have instincts to breed when they need to when there body fat is at a certain percentage.

You have any idea how much food just gets thrown away? You think the farmer is out there shooting ducks cause they are in his rice patties?
You brought up the pesticides used on agriculture and how it has effect eagles eggs due to pollution in the fish. Again that is a biproduct of greed cause they didnt want to have wasted produce. Do not think there arnt enough fields already to support us, the food is already there but distributed poorly.

Organic food is so readily availible and barely even more expensive. Im not gonna blindly say farmers dont do stupid things like spray fields with toxic chemicals, but they dont have too. The meat industry can raise animals in a semi natural fassion, so people woudlnt have to eat sick and lame animal meat, filled with antibiotics and steroids, but they do. You guys say "some" dont but that isnt good enough for me, my protest is on the meat industry not on meat itself, thats why i have non vegitarian close friends. I dont crave meat anymore i havnt in months, the smell of bacon sickens me as well if i ate it my body would reject it. You say its natural to eat meat I say its an option.

Anymore controvercial topics your gonna throw at me?
Youve done Abortion, and theory of evolution, so whats next gay marriage?

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

You were just caught up in a moment of anger. Sure, it could have been restrained a bit, but it happens even to the best of people.

Glad the kitten is ok.

 

[matchuu]

You were just caught up in a moment of anger. Sure, it could have been restrained a bit, but it happens even to the best of people.

Glad the kitten is ok.

lol i derailed this thread so bad..... but i asure you uzor helped!

 

[Blackchaoshero]

I would like to take a minute to lol at everything except the first post. I'm really glad the kitten is ok. if it wasn't for the title i would have been really concerned for the title when i was reading the OP.


on to the DRASTICALLY DERAILED topic.
Mankind has asserted itself into virtually every eco system, we have modified the world around us to suit ourselves and now it is largely dependent on our continuation. look at what we've done at large in the world. we've
A) killed off predatorial creatures in general. with drastically reduced numbers of natural predators like wolves, deer have flourished to uncontrollable numbers. if people didn't go hunting odds are the majority of the populations would starve over the winters.
B) We've removed plants/animals we don't like and introduced things we do like. theres far too many far too obvious examples.
C) we've interrupted natural cycles on a disturbing scale. (i did a project on the effect of deprivation of fire from the local ecosystems in school at some point) for example, forest fires. Forest fires were a natural part of the north american ecosystem. there are trees that depend on fire to reproduce, there are plants that evolved almost exclusively to fit the terrain left behind by fires. within the cycle of nature, fire isn't that big a concern. there's only a small amount of flammables eg pine needles, grasses and leaves on the ground between the trees at any point naturally, fire burns it off. fire burns the saplings down while they're short. thick and young bark on the old tall trees protects them until they die naturally. all in all, forest fires didn't have a really big effect on the forests. but people, don't like fire out of control... so we put them out. and the dead brush builds up on the ground... and the saplings get taller. so now the fire can jump from the crown of the young tree to the crown of the older trees. now the mast on the ground is thick enough to burn and smoulder for days, more than enough to light up the larger trees. these fires are dangerous and more unpredicatble. outright firestorms that leave nothing behind them. now, if we stop putting out the fires, we'll end up with an endless field of ashes and burnt out trees.
D) misc, Pesticides and chemicles, pollution in general have all but wiped out the natural balance in many ecosystems.

also, hurray for kittens.

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

lol i derailed this thread so bad..... but i asure you uzor helped!

Heh, I kind of figured. It was a 10+ page thread about an injured kitten, so autuomatically you can tell that 7+ of those pages were either a new topic from a Derail or spam.

 

[RoM]

Thank you thats all I needed to see. Ignoring reality.

There's a big difference between ignoring and accepting.

Learn it.

As if it haden't been mentioned yet the only one here ignoring the facts is you. Whereas they may displease me on a personal level it's not as if that's going to make the cycle come to a grinding halt. It also doesn't make me the villian simply for giving in to my COMPLETELY NATURAL desires when it comes to what i eat. I'm not going to deny evolutionary fact and somehow convince myself that those facts are somehow refutable. You may be able to erase or fabricate information just to make yourself sleep better at night and that's all well and good for you. I happen to be made of sterner stuff, just because i may not like what's going on does not change the fact that it's been going on and will continue to do so long after i die of a heart attack and you and your healthy lifestyle get run over by a bus.

 

[Uzor]

I never said mankind never needed meat, they had no other option then, stop tryin to twist my words. Stop comparing then and now, especially when you basis is on a theory, or educated guess.

Its not based on a theory. Its based on hard evidence and facts. And yes, I am well educated, but its not a guess.

Its completely moronic you guys think that the eco system would colaspe without mandkinds influence, what do you think when settlers found new areas and the place was a wilderness cause the animals ate all the plant life cause humans wernt there to kill them so they couldnt balance out? Animals have instincts to breed when they need to when there body fat is at a certain percentage.

It kind of would, actually. Eventually it would adapt, but it'd be in utter chaos for a long time. If we suddenly killed every fly alive over 1 day and burnt the corpses, the eco system would also get fucked up. Every animal that eat flies would suddenly have less to eat, and would starve to death and die. Removing every living animal of a species, it will fuck up the eco system. Everything is either pray or predator. Remove the pray, the predators will starve. Remove the predator, and the pray will repopulate fast and eventually starve. The nature is in a very precise balance. Tip it to the favour of another, and the tower will fall.

You have any idea how much food just gets thrown away? You think the farmer is out there shooting ducks cause they are in his rice patties?
You brought up the pesticides used on agriculture and how it has effect eagles eggs due to pollution in the fish. Again that is a biproduct of greed cause they didnt want to have wasted produce. Do not think there arnt enough fields already to support us, the food is already there but distributed poorly.

Yes, a lot of food get thrown away. If everyone stopped eating meat, we'd still throw food away. So what's your point?

Organic food is so readily availible and barely even more expensive. Im not gonna blindly say farmers dont do stupid things like spray fields with toxic chemicals, but they dont have too. The meat industry can raise animals in a semi natural fassion, so people woudlnt have to eat sick and lame animal meat, filled with antibiotics and steroids, but they do. You guys say "some" dont but that isnt good enough for me, my protest is on the meat industry not on meat itself, thats why i have non vegitarian close friends. I dont crave meat anymore i havnt in months, the smell of bacon sickens me as well if i ate it my body would reject it. You say its natural to eat meat I say its an option.

No, they don't have to, But they are. If animals start eating their crops, they lose out on profit. Which isn't beneficial for them. And as I mentioned earlier, one of the strongest instincts we have are selfishness. Greed is a part of selfishness. You can't put out demands like "Everyone should just stop eating meat. I've stopped eating meat. You can too". Meat is natural, there's no reason to demand people stop eating meat. There's no reason to hate the meat industry, because what they do isn't unatural (except for genetically modifying them).
Abortion, and theory of evolution, so whats next gay marriage?[/quote]

 

[matchuu]

K im done talking, Uzor must be right... Ima go wait for my Call of the wild will kick in then ill kill something. Im a asshole cause i try my best as a single person to not add to the problem. I should just accept it as is and roll over and die. I got alot of stuff to do anyways we dont all have the luxury have 6k+ posts.

 

[RoM]

K im done talking, Uzor must be right... Ima go wait for my Call of the wild will kick in then ill kill something. Im a asshole cause i try my best as a single person to not add to the problem. I should just accept it as is and roll over and die. I got alot of stuff to do anyways we dont all have the luxury have 6k+ posts.

I don't think the issue here is so much your personal preference so much as your publicly uninformed opinion about us carnivores/omnivores, with all due respect. I know at the very least i could care less about your choice so much as your words on the subject. To quote futurama 'You're vegetarians, who cares what you do?'

 

[Uzor]

K im done talking, Uzor must be right... Ima go wait for my Call of the wild will kick in then ill kill something. Im a asshole cause i try my best as a single person to not add to the problem. I should just accept it as is and roll over and die. I got alot of stuff to do anyways we dont all have the luxury have 6k+ posts.

Once again your lack of actually interpretting and listenign to what others have to say show.

And yes, RoM's got it. Its not so much that you are a vegetarian, as it how you act about being a vegetarian. Mainly "I'm better, because you don't care about animals. You eat them, how can you care?" attitude.

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

Once again your lack of actually interpretting and listenign to what others have to say show.

And yes, RoM's got it. Its not so much that you are a vegetarian, as it how you act about being a vegetarian. Mainly "I'm better, because you don't care about animals. You eat them, how can you care?" attitude.

Absolutely, 100% pure truth.

Its not the actions, or even the words. Its the attitude.

ld: Eating =/= Hating

Remember, the old man never lies. (Props to whoever said it first.)

 

[Trippyhippy]

Too bad I came in on this one late, I've been itching for a good arguement.

Where to start...

you shouldnt be concerned with children's rights if your irresponcible enough to "need" to have an abortion, first that person should worry about not being a total slut, then after they build up enough respect for themselves then they can try to respect and defend the rights of children.

So men can't have abortions. Does that mean they can't be blamed for the irrisponsibility? I realize that most likely isn't how you feel, but it is poorly worded statement and you should think before you speak.

Fact of the matter is, sometimes the choice to have an abortion shows responsibility, sometimes it is because of rape/incest, and sometimes it is because birth would endanger the life of the mother, and sometimes it is the humane thing to do. If you are 15 and get pregnant, you aren't ready to be a parent and the responsible thing to do is have an abortion. Same goes for people who are too poor to support children, people who have a chemical addiction, and people who don't want children. It is the responsible and humane thing to do.

then there was this:

Ive lived both lifestyles so who is the ignorant one now?

PS I never called anyone names, but ive been called ignorant by 3 people now nice to know im speaking with adults.

In one sentance you called someone ignorant, while in the next sentence you said you haven't called anyone names. Keep in mind that earlier you called people that have abortions irresponsible and "total slut". Later on, you once again say "I never once called anyone ignorant, only you and a few others felt the need to name call."

Do not blame the destruction of the rain forest on growing produce for us up here that is totally bogus, there tore down for grazing land, why do you think the number one air pollutant is caused from cattle.

In one breath, you refute what someone else says without presenting any facts, while you present a completely baseless "fact" that has absolutely no truth to it. I looked for your figure, for a long time, and I could not find it. I did find out what the 10 most polutted places in the world are. It's an interesting read. Most poullted cities I would point out only 1 of those has anything at all to do with cows and it's in india where Cows are a symbol of god and no one eats them. I would also point out it from chemicals used for tanning and not from cow shit.

Cant believe im talkin about abortion again, but what profession uses that practice the most? How many rape victims actually get pregnant? Abortion is mainly used by prostitutes and younger women. You guys throwing rape back in my face is like a stoner tryin to use cancer patients to defend his habit. Abortions for rape victims probaly isnt even 1%

1 in 6 rape victims get pregnant. and 1.2% of abortions are for rape victims which you may dismiss because the percentage is low, but I do not because i know there are 1.2 million abortions every year in America alone. I would also inquire about your source of info that states abortion is used mainly by younger woman and prostitutes. The facts I have shows that 50% of women who have abortions are over age 25. I can't seem to find anything (that isn't on an evangelical site) about prostitutes and abortion.

In closing, you are self important and need to mind your own business when it comes to lifestyles of fellow human beings when said lifestyles do not concern or affect you in any way.

And quit making up "facts". This is the internet, google is 1 click away for all my fact checking needs.