My Account was Hacked :(

[Jussy]

hello jussy
On December 4 my account was hacked into just like yours. Same way and same responses from SE. However I am able to pursue to the end to get my 3 years worth of work back. And yes if i could could just fly to california it would be cheaper. I have secured an attorney and will be filling a supena is El- segundo California If you want to to join please reply on thread was red75 monk75 ect> and fell like i got kidnapped

I sent you a PM concerning this. /bow

 

[Zylia]

Out of my own curiosity I posted on a legal advice forum asking about what kinda case you could pursue after all of this. I explained the situation and they pretty much said despite our investment into the game, the characters in the end belong to SE, and we are merely paying them to use them.

It doesn't really matter if we invested ~$800+ over years (with expansions, monthly fees, extra mules/accounts, etc) because in the end our money is only going toward playing the game, not how nice the character is over time. The way the guy put it, as long as we enjoyed our playtime during each month we got our $14 out of that month. He said legally there are no sort of actions that can be made against SE, and ultimately only the hackers can be charged with anything and that is mainly because they illegally gained access to information on your account.

Your monthly fees are for access to the game during the month. If you do not get $14 per month enjoyment out of playing then stop playing.

The SE policy is that all characters are property of SE and that you are only subscribing to the service. Therefore, your characters do not increase in monetary value over time since they are not really yours. You may like the characters better after 5 years of playing, but they are not yours to sell so you have not lost $1000 for your account.

The only claims here would be against the hackers who gained unauthorized access to your account.

It unfortunately made sense...

As far as a credit card being billed for the month of December when an account was stolen goes, you can probably dispute the charge with your credit card company and get that money back since you did not get your services for the month of December. Can't freeze the account, but you can probably at least get your money back.

It seems the most we can really do is push SE to change their policy or add protections. Legally I really don't think a lot of people would be able to get their accounts back, because the character doesn't 'belong to them.' We pay SE to use our characters... and as long as we got to play for the month we payed for the money isn't considered wasted and the time we invested in it is considered fulfilling.

 

[Khali]

sorry i read this thread late but i do agree with the people who talk about sending a confirmation email to an outside non-pol email account to confirm information changes. I think that's been happening pre-ffxi days with other sites and forums and etc.

 

[Veresko]

Out of my own curiosity I posted on a legal advice forum asking about what kinda case you could pursue after all of this. I explained the situation and they pretty much said despite our investment into the game, the characters in the end belong to SE, and we are merely paying them to use them.

It doesn't really matter if we invested ~$800+ over years (with expansions, monthly fees, extra mules/accounts, etc) because in the end our money is only going toward playing the game, not how nice the character is over time. The way the guy put it, as long as we enjoyed our playtime during each month we got our $14 out of that month. He said legally there are no sort of actions that can be made against SE, and ultimately only the hackers can be charged with anything and that is mainly because they illegally gained access to information on your account.

It unfortunately made sense...

As far as a credit card being billed for the month of December when an account was stolen goes, you can probably dispute the charge with your credit card company and get that money back since you did not get your services for the month of December. Can't freeze the account, but you can probably at least get your money back.

It seems the most we can really do is push SE to change their policy or add protections. Legally I really don't think a lot of people would be able to get their accounts back, because the character doesn't 'belong to them.' We pay SE to use our characters... and as long as we got to play for the month we payed for the money isn't considered wasted and the time we invested in it is considered fulfilling.

I'm no lawyer and I want to say that this does make a lot of sense. However, I'm sure you could make a case that what's been stolen, is your account or account information, not the character itself.

As stated, the characters DO belong to SE and you are allowed to use them, for a fee. I think what would need to be looked at is exactly when that fee is being paid, which can be one of 2 things:

1) You pay 14$ a month for an account on PoL. That account is yours. SE then allows free access to their game, owned by them, to your account, owned by you.

2) SE gave you an account for free, but it's still yours. Then you are paying 14$ through your account, to play their game.

In both scenarios, either they sold you or gave you the account, it's still yours. It's debatable of course, but I'm sure it could be easily determined, considering it has personal information in it. I haven't looked at the litterature in a while but I'm sure a good lawyer could establish ownership of the account by you, using SE's litterature.

Now the hacker(s) didn't steal the character, since it always has and still does belong to SE. But they stole the account or account ifnormation, which could be established as being owned by the player. Also, it would be quite easy to establish a monetary value to an account, just by looking at ebay and such. Remember, people sell their account info, not the characters.

Finally, you could make the case that when you purchased the product (your PoL account), it was implied that in that product came a certain securty that SE would provide. Had you been under the impression you could be hacked into and robbed of your account, you probably wouldn't have bought it in the first place. In that case, you could maybe sue SE for not providing what you paid for, ie a minimum security in the product you bought from them.

I hope this all makes sense.

 

[Zylia]

As stated, the characters DO belong to SE and you are allowed to use them, for a fee. I think what would need to be looked at is exactly when that fee is being paid, which can be one of 2 things:

1) You pay 14$ a month for an account on PoL. That account is yours. SE then allows free access to their game, owned by them, to your account, owned by you.

Actually you're paying the $14 for the Content IDs

When I quit the game, I still retained my POL Account and still could log on and talk to people via friend list. I couldn't use the "Play" button to get into the play game though because my Content ID's were not active. I don't know how it would change the argument, but you pay $13 for your first character, and $1 for the second character, etc etc. So technically by losing your account information, they steal the data on your content IDs that you pay for, not the account itself. Your personal information isn't displayed until you go into the detailed section of FFXI or TetraMaster, aside from maybe POL emails you receive (I think).

I'm rushed cause I have a final in 15 minutes so I can't add much else to that atm. I'll check back on it later.

 

[Veresko]

Actually you're paying the $14 for the Content IDs

When I quit the game, I still retained my POL Account and still could log on and talk to people via friend list. I couldn't use the "Play" button to get into the play game though because my Content ID's were not active. I don't know how it would change the argument, but you pay $13 for your first character, and $1 for the second character, etc etc. So technically by losing your account information, they steal the data on your content IDs that you pay for, not the account itself. Your personal information isn't displayed until you go into the detailed section of FFXI or TetraMaster, aside from maybe POL emails you receive (I think).

I'm rushed cause I have a final in 15 minutes so I can't add much else to that atm. I'll check back on it later.

But Jussy and others who have been hacked lost their PoL account, which from what you are saying belong to us, since you keep it after you quit the game.

In other words, what was stolen IS Jussy's and not SE's property. Now the question remains about the value of what was stolen and if you can threatens to start procedure against SE for not providing the security that was implied in protecting your PoL account. Since you got your account for free, it may not hold water. But again, something is always worth what someone is willing to pay for it and PoL accounts have been sold on ebay before. Granted their value was in the Content ID that came with them.

I'm really just speculating and throwing ideas/toughts out there here.

 

[Uzor]

But Jussy and others who have been hacked lost their PoL account, which from what you are saying belong to us, since you keep it after you quit the game.

In other words, what was stolen IS Jussy's and not SE's property. Now the question remains about the value of what was stolen and if you can threatens to start procedure against SE for not providing the security that was implied in protecting your PoL account. Since you got your account for free, it may not hold water. But again, something is always worth what someone is willing to pay for it and PoL accounts have been sold on ebay before. Granted their value was in the Content ID that came with them.

I'm really just speculating and throwing ideas/toughts out there here.

You don't pay for PlayOnline. You pay for a service. Similar to how you don't pay for the driver or the cab, you pay them to take you home. You pay for SE to let you pay, and you temporarily borrow an account that SE lends to you. That's SE's perfect defense. Thus, if you get hacked, they're not obliged to let you have your account back, as you don't pay for the account, you pay for the service that you've obtained. Thing is, the hackers, in turn, as long as they don't hack you on the very last day before payment, when hacking you, have basically stolen a service you were supposed to recieve. Basically, identity theft, as it was your creditcard used to ay for the service. And THAT is the lawsuit you have to file. Not against SE, but against the hackers.

SE, on the other hand, are still obliged to give the police the information about the hacker to the police, such as their credit card information, which can hopefully be used to track the hackers down. And that is pretty much your only chance at getting your account back, as SE is not, theoretically, in the wrong. Going through your bank, as myself and many others have suggested before, will only get you some of your money back, and possibly open SE's eyes up to the problem, and, if lucky, get your account back earlier. The lawsuit against the hackers aren't even guaranteed to get your account back, although its likely, if it turns out to be a real hacker, that SE would give it back to its rightful, instead of just deleting it and lose money.

 

[Zylia]

It sucks cause I think the legal argument will end up being that the account information is your property, but the Content IDs you buy are owned by SE and licensed for your usage only which is the only thing your payment to them guarantees - usage. The account merely grants you access to the services. So losing your account information means that you lost your own property, detaching SE from any responsibility in getting it back, leaving you up to your own means to determine who hacked your account because they have privacy policies that wont allow you any information for an account you 'don't have ownership of.' In the end it probably isn't even worth it to try to get through to the FBI computer crime site or whatever it was they directed you to. You'll probably end up spending more money/time trying to prove it than it is even worth. It really sucks but it is probably the truth.

I'm really not sure if a court of law would follow the 'black market' of currency sales. While there is a price tagged to the currency/accounts(even achievements) based on demand from those websites, I don't know if those types of things would legally be able to be recognized, as it is not really a retail value type of thing. Its one of those things where the value of the account is only as much as someone else is willing to pay for it. Legally it doesn't have a price tag. In essence it is virtual data that doesn't even belong to the person selling it if you are going off of Content ID's. If you sell your account, the account doesn't have value, the Content ID's within do, and that is property of SE if you discontinue the services. If you legally shouldn't even be able to sell SE's property, I'm not sure legally they would be willing to place a price tag based off a account/gilselling website.

I'm not really well versed in law either, but from the few introductions to law I've had theres a lot of fine print that would probably halt any attempts to try to get the account back If you could prove who the hacker was and prove they got into your computer, prove they stole your account information and all of that and have some sort of request to SE after all of that to get your character back I'm sure they probably could, but you're going to have to be the motivating force to push the investigation, cause unless they're told by a legal source with confirmed proof and documentation that the current owner of the account obtained it illegally, they probably aren't going to budge to try to change the information.

I'm really hoping theres some legal loophole that someone will be able to find that succeeds in the account argument.

 

[Uzor]

It sucks cause I think the legal argument will end up being that the account information is your property, but the Content IDs you buy are owned by SE and licensed for your usage only which is the only thing your payment to them guarantees - usage. The account merely grants you access to the services. So losing your account information means that you lost your own property, detaching SE from any responsibility in getting it back, leaving you up to your own means to determine who hacked your account because they have privacy policies that wont allow you any information for an account you 'don't have ownership of.' In the end it probably isn't even worth it to try to get through to the FBI computer crime site or whatever it was they directed you to. You'll probably end up spending more money/time trying to prove it than it is even worth. It really sucks but it is probably the truth.

I'm really not sure if a court of law would follow the 'black market' of currency sales. While there is a price tagged to the currency/accounts(even achievements) based on demand from those websites, I don't know if those types of things would legally be able to be recognized, as it is not really a retail value type of thing. Its one of those things where the value of the account is only as much as someone else is willing to pay for it. Legally it doesn't have a price tag. In essence it is virtual data that doesn't even belong to the person selling it if you are going off of Content ID's. If you sell your account, the account doesn't have value, the Content ID's within do, and that is property of SE if you discontinue the services. If you legally shouldn't even be able to sell SE's property, I'm not sure legally they would be willing to place a price tag based off a account/gilselling website.

I'm not really well versed in law either, but from the few introductions to law I've had theres a lot of fine print that would probably halt any attempts to try to get the account back If you could prove who the hacker was and prove they got into your computer, prove they stole your account information and all of that and have some sort of request to SE after all of that to get your character back I'm sure they probably could, but you're going to have to be the motivating force to push the investigation, cause unless they're told by a legal source with confirmed proof and documentation that the current owner of the account obtained it illegally, they probably aren't going to budge to try to change the information.

I'm really hoping theres some legal loophole that someone will be able to find that succeeds in the account argument.

That's not what you file a law suit for though. You file it for identity theft, hacking and theft.

 

[Zylia]

I was referring to:

Also, it would be quite easy to establish a monetary value to an account, just by looking at ebay and such.

The comment you bolded was aimed at this. Legally you probably can't set a price on an account/content IDs, even if there are people who would pay money for it. I don't mean that you'd prosecute for those damages, just in general, the legal system probably would be unwilling to allow a price tag on that type of internet data. If you tried to add that as some sort of 'damages' in a lawsuit against the hacker (for things they stole while using your account) you probably wouldn't win that claim. Sorry if I caused confusion.

 

[Uzor]

I was referring to:


The comment you bolded was aimed at this. Legally you probably can't set a price on an account/contend IDs, even if there are people who would pay money for it. I don't mean that you'd prosecute for those damages, just in general, the legal system probably would be unwilling to allow a price tag on that type of internet data. If you tried to add that as some sort of 'damages' in a lawsuit against the hacker (for things they stole while using your account) you probably wouldn't win that claim. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Oh :3 Yeah, you're right

 

[Cletus]

That's not what you file a law suit for though. You file it for identity theft, hacking and theft.

While you're at it, why don't you file a lawsuit because China is the #1 polluter, or SARS came from there. The fact is we have no jurisdiction over what happens in China. It's pretty much a dead issue. All you can do is your best to make sure it doesn't happen to you, and say "That sucks" to the people that it did happen to.

 

[Uzor]

While you're at it, why don't you file a lawsuit because China is the #1 polluter, or SARS came from there. The fact is we have no jurisdiction over what happens in China. It's pretty much a dead issue. All you can do is your best to make sure it doesn't happen to you, and say "That sucks" to the people that it did happen to.

What good does filing a lawsuit over semantics, when hacking can be proven?

 

[Trippyhippy]

Legally I really don't think a lot of people would be able to get their accounts back, because the character doesn't 'belong to them.'

No, but the registration key does. The discs these people paid $50 for are completely useless now.

2) SE gave you an account for free, but it's still yours. Then you are paying 14$ through your account, to play their game.

They didn't give me an account for free. I paid a total of $150 for the game and 3 expansions.

You don't pay for PlayOnline.

I paid for playonline. As far as I know, there isn't anyplace where you can legally download it for free.

Similar to how you don't pay for the driver or the cab, you pay them to take you home.

You don't have to pay for the Cab itself, then pay for the service, you just have to pay for the service. I bought those discs. This would be no different than buying the discs with a registration code that has already been used. You also don't give your credit card to a cab driver to pay him by the month, and if you did, and he wasn't there when you needed him after you bought his cab for him, then paid him a month in advance, you'd be pretty pissed off.

It sucks cause I think the legal argument will end up being that the account information is your property, but the Content IDs you buy are owned by SE and licensed for your usage only which is the only thing your payment to them guarantees - usage.

If it was me, I'd push the registration code issue (because I still have mine, and the discs that I originally bought 4 years ago). I paid them money for my registration code and by god I'm going to be using it. When I got CoP, it was DVD only and I didn't have a DVD drive. I installed it from a file on my desktop that a friend sent to me from his disc and ONLY used the registration code. That code is the only reason I bought the disc that my computer couldn't read. And if my shit got stolen and they tell me it's not really mine even though I bought it...

I'd do something drastic, perhaps violent.

 

[Uzor]

Just hire Dayner. I'm sure he'd help you out with a few bombs

 

[Gerry]

While you're at it, why don't you file a lawsuit because China is the #1 polluter, or SARS came from there. The fact is we have no jurisdiction over what happens in China. It's pretty much a dead issue. All you can do is your best to make sure it doesn't happen to you, and say "That sucks" to the people that it did happen to.

Off Topic: Don't forget #1 at animal cruelty ie. skinning dogs and cats alive in filthy conditions

On Topic (Sorta): How many e-mails will the UN need to take away China's hackers and put them all away for mass cyber crimes against the world. Seriously though, hacking in any country is a crime, and if its on this large scale, shouldn't the UN or Interpol do something about it?

 

[Uzor]

Off Topic: Don't forget #1 at animal cruelty ie. skinning dogs and cats alive in filthy conditions

On Topic (Sorta): How many e-mails will the UN need to take away China's hackers and put them all away for mass cyber crimes against the world. Seriously though, hacking in any country is a crime, and if its on this large scale, shouldn't the UN or Interpol do something about it?

That's suing individuals :3 He wanted to sue a country There's a difference.

Besides, USA would just bomb them instead of suing them. That is, if George Bush cared for the environment ;P

 

[Cletus]

That's suing individuals :3 He wanted to sue a country There's a difference.

Besides, USA would just bomb them instead of suing them. That is, if George Bush cared for the environment ;P

Hah, yes I did say sue China. But you know what I meant. Call me naive, but I honestly think Interpol or the UN has more pressing matters than FFXI account hacking in China.

 

[Gerry]

Hah, yes I did say sue China. But you know what I meant. Call me naive, but I honestly think Interpol or the UN has more pressing matters than FFXI account hacking in China.

Not just hacked FFXI accounts, the Chinese also hack other MMO games.

*finds videos*

Edit#1: Its very hard trying to find videos of this kind of thing so please bear with me while I try and find some.

Edit#2: Ok, I can't find videos, but you know how it is. Other MMOs get hacked all the same, then sold on the net for thousands of dollars/pounds/euros etc. First of all Its theft of identity in a way as your details are on your account, therefore its a crime. Second, its theft of data, also illegal. Third, its hacking, also a crime. Many Chinese people are doing it ALL THE TIME! Therefore its a mass crime which should be dealt with by:

a) Interpol as these are international crimes occurring
b) UN, for same reason
c) The companies that makes the MMOs to provide evidence to the UN and Interpol
d) Credit/Debit card companies to provide information that the legit players actually owned the account from the very start

It doesn't matter if it is a game, the point is hacking is a very serious crime and it should be dealt with like any other crime, no matter if it is either an MMO account or an international bank.

Edit#3: btw, I understand how its been working there and I do feel sorry for some of they're problems, but it still pisses me off when they hack the accounts of people I know and care about.

 

[Cletus]

Not just hacked FFXI accounts, the Chinese also hack other MMO games.

*finds videos*

Edit#1: Its very hard trying to find videos of this kind of thing so please bear with me while I try and find some.

There's no need to provide evidence they hack other MMO's. My point is, that's small potatoes for an international organization to focus resources towards. I mean, if I were originally from Africa or SE Asia I would be pissed that the money that could be spent on poverty and AIDS prevention is going to make sure a couple of people don't get their video games taken away from them.