mystic wonders on the side of my screen

CmdrFly said:
I wish pot was a form of currency, Canada's "dollar" would be astronomical. $10/g is the going rate here, $30/8th, $50/qtr, $90/half, $150/oz (this is all in CDN funds). What are comparative prices in the states?

I never bought more than a gram, since I didn't want to carry it with me for days. Its important to note just how different the quality is in different portions of the states. I had a boss who came from Boston, and the first time he smoked out here he was asolutely flying. He thought he was all pro and could take a who owl to himself, but the stuff in Cali layed him out. He said he used to be able to for $15.00/g over in boston, and it was $20.00/g here, about a year after I quit smokin pot it dropped to $15.00/g ut I heard that was very local because the dealers were starting to compete because there were so many of them.

When you have collages like Humbolt growing it on site for their "Experiments" theres gonna be alot. On top of that we have alot of the wine making students taking their lessons in hydroponics and addapting it towards pot production.

Now Pot sounds dirt cheap in Canada at $10.00/g. Especially when I look at the back of on of my books and see it cost $17.00 USA and $21.00 CAN

That pretty much puts it at $7.00 USA is what you're paying. So if we are paying $15.00 you're getting it for half the price we are.
 
Interesting.

That's strictly Vancouver BC prices, where it's not too difficult to have a one-middleman connection to a grow op. I didn't smoke when I was living in the hillbilly lands so I couldn't say those prices are common across all of Canada or even BC, but I'm sure they're not too different as you travel region to region up here.

Given the apparent difficulty of growing en mass in the states, I'm sure there's a couple more hands between buyer and grower so that may also inflate the price. But interesting to compare nonetheless.
 
Miruyasha said:
I know you didn't mean any offense, hence why I didn't take any. BB made an excellent point, which is that people that do most studies for things like this are paid to prove a predetermined opinion. Alot of information is misleading in and of itself, simply because of the nature in which it was researched. Your going to get handed money to "prove" something, the results of which may or may not be true. As I said before, its really just about what information you choose to believe.

Something I read on here (and have told my smoking friends) that has worked wonders for trying to quit smoking is to do it gradually. The reason people who quit cold turkey end up relapsing is because its like having your eyes get adjusted to a dark room, then turning a bright light on. Its like "ah, turn it off!" because your body is suddenly thrust into a change. Long story short, smoke cigs less and less each day. Allow your body to get used to less and less nicotine, and eventually you'll find yourself craving less and less of it. It may (and in most cases will) take a while, but consider the alternative.

As for pot, I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life. Your a very well informed individual, at least based on which side you take. I never had any intention of sparking a heated debate on marijuana use. I know that people do it, regardless of the dangers it faces to your health. I merely wished to get the point across that it is, in fact, dangerous and detrimental to your health. Also, it really depends on how often you smoke pot. If its a few times a week (or something like that), then your MUCH better off then those who do it on a daily basis. I choose not to do drugs or drink. I will (at the drop of a hat) engage in promiscuous sex with my fiance, but thats really the only "sinful" indulgence I partake in.

As i heard it and have seen in news segments and the like the body starts to shake the addiction at 2hrs after the last cigarette was smoked. Everything else is somewhat psychosematic from my understanding.

Also, nicotine dosages aren't controlled by how many smokes your have like it would be alchohol or many other substances studies have shown that the dosages of chemicals you absorb from the average cigarette is all but solely dependant on how an individual actaully takes the sequential hits of the cigarettes. I don't remember exactly where i got the information on this but i know it was a news segment about a college department that had made a cigarette hitting machine, was interesting to watch.

When i drop them it's going to be flat. No gum, no patch, no inhaler, none of that stuff. Last time i put them down all it took me was a small bag of dark chocolate hershey kisses, one for each craving attack. Dopimene/seratonin (sp?) ftw.
 
Not this shit again. RoM said it best when he metioned the other thread (you know, the one that set out to discuss marijuana) handled it much better.


Go go random acts of weed bashing!! All right!!
Get over it. Be proud of your own decisions in life and leave others alone.
 
Usually every week or so, I buy an oscar de la hoya(sp?). 28 grams for $160~$220.

This has been an average of the past 6 or 7 months, since I started working full time...Before that, I used to buy honey oil.

*Gasp* That stuff is made by mixing 99.9% Isopropl alcohol with buds, then cooking away a majority of the alcohol via a low temperature. My friend's dad has been making the stuff for over a decade, it's very high quality. (taste and texture) I mainly smoked that stuff because I was working part time. It was only $25 for a 2 gram vial.

I'd be ignorant as hell to say I'm not mentally dependant on pot. I can't fall asleep soundly without it. I wake up in the morning very groggy, if I smoke moments before getting into bed. My short term memory is terrible and things I cannot seem to remember are always on the tip of my tongue.

Anyway, jumping to the point. All this brings me is a short duration of enjoying life a -little- bit more, laughing a -little- harder, tasting a -little- more, and last but not little...Falling asleep is -a lot- easier.

For the vast negative aspects I listed, from cooking with iso alcohol, to paying well over $300 per month...I enjoy the rollercoaster ride that life can be, this simply helps me enjoy it a -little- more and to get away from it via sleep -a lot- easier.

It's my life, I'll enjoy it how I see fit.

People use crutches everyday. God fobid I start a discussion about the pharmacuticals which our tax dollars are paying to poison people daily.

Oh, I'm also a pack/day smoker. As some of you Canadians might know the WNP is actually a popular brand of cigarettes. Flip it over and it reads duM (lol) du Maurier. D:

/preach!
 
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Well. Lot of people that are ignorant to facts are posting here. As opposed to quoting all the inaccurate (or in some cases down right false) propaganda.

If you are interested in the non-medical use of drugs in this country, the time to go back to is 1900, and in some ways the most important thing I am going to say to you guys I will say first. That is, that in 1900 there were far more people addicted to drugs in this country than there are today. Depending upon whose judgment, or whose assessment, you accept there were between two and five percent of the entire adult population of the United States addicted to drugs in 1900.

Now, there were two principal causes of this dramatic level of drug addiction at the turn of the century. The first cause was the use of morphine and its various derivatives in legitimate medical operations. You know as late as 1900, particularly in areas where medical resources were scarce it was not at all uncommon for you to say, let's say you would have appendicitis, you would go into the hospital, and you would get morphine as a pain killer during the operation, you would be given morphine further after the operation and you would come out of the hospital with no appendix but addicted to morphine.

The use of morphine in battlefield operations during the Civil War was so extensive that, by 1880, so many Union veterans were addicted to morphine that the popular press referred to morphinism as the "soldier's disease". Now I will say, being from Virginia as I am, that the Confederate veterans didn't have any problems about being addicted to morphine because the South was too poor to have any, and therefore battlefield operations on the Confederate Army were simply done by chopping off the relevant limb while they drank a little whiskey. But the Northern troops heavily found themselves, as the result of battlefield operations and the use of morphine, addicted to morphine.

Now, the other fact that I think that is so interesting about drug addiction at the turn of the century, as opposed to today is who the addicts were, because they were the exact opposite of who you would think most likely to be an addict today. If I were to ask you in terms of statistical groups who is most likely to be involved with drugs today, you would say a young person, a male, who lives in the city and who may be a minority group member. That is the exact opposite of who was most likely to be addicted to drugs at the turn of the century.

In terms of statistical groups, who was most likely to be addicted to drugs at the turn of the century? A rural living, middle-aged white woman. The use of morphine in medical operations does not explain the much higher incidence of drug addiction among women. What does is the second cause of the high level of addiction at the turn of the century -- the growth and development of what we now call the "patent medicine" industry.

I think some of you, maybe from watching Westerns on TV if nothing else are aware that, again, as late as 1900, in areas, particularly rural areas where medical resources were scarce, it was typical for itinerant salesmen, not themselves doctors, to cruise around the countryside offering potions and elixirs of all sorts advertised in the most flamboyant kinds of terms. "Doctor Smith's Oil, Good for What Ails You", or "Doctor Smith's Oil, Good for Man or Beast."

Well, what the purveyors of these medicines did not tell their purchasers, was that later, when these patent medicines were tested, many of them proved to be up to fifty percent morphine by volume.

Now, what that meant, as I have always thought, was the most significant thing about the high morphine content in patent medicines was it meant they tended to live up to their advertising. Because no matter what is wrong with you, or your beast, you are going to feel a whole lot better after a couple of slugs of an elixir that is fifty percent morphine. So there was this tendency to think "Wow! This stuff works." Down you could go to the general store and get more of it and it could be sold to you directly over the counter.

Now, for reasons that we weren't able to full research, but for reasons, I think, probably associated with the role of women rural societies then patent medicines were much more appealing to women than to men and account for the much higher incidence of drug addiction in 1900 among women than among men.

If you want to see a relatively current portrayal of a woman addicted to patent medicine you might think of Eugene O'Neil's play "A Long Day's Journey Into Night". The mother figure there, the one that was played by Katherine Hepburn in the movies was addicted to patent medicines.

In any event, the use of morphine in medical operations and the sale of patent medicines accounted for a dramatic level of addiction. Again, between two and five percent of the entire adult population of the United States was addicted to drugs as late as 1900.

Now if my first point is that there was a lot more addiction in 1900 than there is today and that the people who were addicted are quite a different group than the group we would be thinking of today, my next point would be that if you look at drug addiction in 1900, what's the number one way in which it is different than drug addiction today? Answer: Almost all addiction at the turn of the century was accidental.

People became involved with drugs they did not know that they were taking, that they did not know the impact of. The first point, then, is that there was more drug addiction than there is now and most of it was accidental.

Then the single law which has done the most in this country to reduce the level of drug addiction is none of the criminal laws we have ever passed. The single law that reduced drug addiction the most was the 1906 Pure Food and Drug Act.

The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 did three things:

1). It created the Food and Drug Administration in Washington that must approve all foods and drugs meant for human consumption. The very first impact of that was that the patent medicines were not approved for human consumption once they were tested.

2) The Pure Food and Drug Act said that certain drugs could only be sold on prescription.

3) The Pure Food and Drug Act, (and you know, this is still true today, go look in your medicine chest) requires that any drug that can be potentially habit-forming say so on it's label. "Warning -- May be habit forming."

The labeling requirements, the prescription requirements, and the refusal to approve the patent medicines basically put the patent medicine business out of business and reduced that dramatic source of accidental addiction. The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, not a criminal law, did more to reduce the level of addiction than any other single statute we have passed in all of the times from then to now.

The very first criminal law at the Federal level in this country to criminalize the non-medical use of drugs came in 1914. It was called the Harrison Act and there are only three things about the Harrison Act that we need to focus on today.

Number one is the date. Did you hear the date, 1914? Some of you may have come this morning thinking that we have used the criminal law to deal with the non-medical use of drugs since the beginning of the Republic or something. That is not true. The entire experiment of using the criminal sanction to deal with the non-medical use of drugs really began in this country in 1914 with the Harrison Act.

The second interesting thing about the Harrison Act was the drugs to which it applied, because it applied to almost none of the drugs we would be concerned about today. The Harrison Act applied to opium, morphine and its various derivatives, and the derivatives of the coca leaf like cocaine. No mention anywhere there of amphetamines, barbiturates, marijuana, hashish, hallucinogenic drugs of any kind. The Harrison Act applied only to opium, morphine and its various derivatives and derivatives of the coca leaf like cocaine.

The third and most interesting thing for you all as judges about the Harrison Act was its structure, because the structure of this law was very peculiar and became the model for every single piece of Federal legislation from 1914 right straight through 1969. And what was that model?

It was called the Harrison Tax Act. You know, the drafters of the Harrison Act said very clearly on the floor of Congress what it was they wanted to achieve. They had two goals. They wanted to regulate the medical use of these drugs and they wanted to criminalize the non-medical use of these drugs. They had one problem. Look at the date -- 1914. 1914 was probably the high water mark of the constitutional doctrine we today call "states' rights" and, therefore, it was widely thought Congress did not have the power, number one, to regulate a particular profession, and number two, that Congress did not have the power to pass what was, and is still known, as a general criminal law. That's why there were so few Federal Crimes until very recently.

In the face of possible Constitutional opposition to what they wanted to do, the people in Congress who supported the Harrison Act came up with a novel idea. That is, they would masquerade this whole thing as though it were a tax. To show you how it worked, can I use some hypothetical figures to show you how this alleged tax worked?

There were two taxes. The first (and again, these figures aren't accurate but they will do to show the idea) tax was paid by doctors. It was a dollar a year and the doctors, in exchange for paying that one dollar tax, got a stamp from the Government that allowed them to prescribe these drugs for their patients so long as they followed the regulations in the statute. Do you see that by the payment of that one dollar tax, we have the doctors regulated? The doctors have to follow the regulations in the statute.

And there was a second tax. (and again, these are hypothetical figures but they will show you how it worked.) was a tax of a thousand dollars of every single non-medical exchange of every one of these drugs. Well, since nobody was going to pay a thousand dollars in tax to exchange something which, in 1914, even in large quantities was worth about five dollars, the second tax wasn't a tax either, it was a criminal prohibition. Now just to be sure you guys understand this, and I am sure you do, but just to make sure, let's say that in 1915 somebody was found, let's say, in possession of an ounce of cocaine out here on the street. What would be the Federal crime? Not possession of cocaine, or possession of a controlled substance. What was the crime? Tax evasion.

And do you see what a wicked web that is going to be? As a quick preview, where then are we going to put the law enforcement arm for the criminalization of drugs for over forty years -- in what department? The Treasury Department. Why, we are just out there collecting taxes and I will show you how that works in a minute.

If you understand that taxing scheme then you understand why the national marijuana prohibition of 1937 was called the Marihuana Tax Act.

But before we get to that next big piece of Federal legislation, the marihuana prohibition of 1937, I would like to take a little detour, if I may, into an analysis of the early state marijuana laws passed in this country from 1915 to 1937.

The first group of states to have marijuana laws in that part of the century were Rocky Mountain and southwestern states. By that, I mean Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Montana. You didn't have to go anywhere but to the legislative records to find out what had motivated those marijuana laws. The only thing you need to know to understand the early marijuana laws in the southwest and Rocky Mountain areas of this country is to know, that in the period just after 1914, into all of those areas was a substantial migration of Mexicans. They had come across the border in search of better economic conditions, they worked heavily as rural laborers, beet field workers, cotton pickers, things of that sort. And with them, they had brought marijuana.

Basically, none of the white people in these states knew anything about marijuana, and I make a distinction between white people and Mexicans to reflect a distinction that any legislator in one of these states at the time would have made. And all you had to do to find out what motivated the marijuana laws in the Rocky mountain and southwestern states was to go to the legislative records themselves. Probably the best single statement was the statement of a proponent of Texas first marijuana law. He said on the floor of the Texas Senate, and I quote, "All Mexicans are crazy, and this stuff (referring to marijuana) is what makes them crazy." Or, as the proponent of Montana's first marijuana law said, (and imagine this on the floor of the state legislature) and I quote, "Give one of these Mexican beet field workers a couple of puffs on a marijuana cigarette and he thinks he is in the bullring at Barcelona."

Well, there it was, you didn't have to look another foot as you went from state to state right on the floor of the state legislature. And so what was the genesis for the early state marijuana laws in the Rocky Mountain and southwestern areas of this country? It wasn't hostility to the drug, it was hostility to the newly arrived Mexican community that used it.

A second group of states that had criminal laws against the use of marijuana were in the Northeast, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York -- had one and then repealed it and then had one again -- New Jersey. Well, clearly no hypothesis about Mexican immigration will explain the genesis of those laws because, as you know, the Northeast has never had, still doesn't really, any substantial Mexican-American population. So we had to dig a little deeper to find the genesis of those laws. We had to go not only to the legislative records but to the newspapers in the state capitols at the time these laws were passed and what we found, in the early marijuana laws in the Northeast, we labeled the "fear of substitution." If I may, let me paraphrase an editorial from the New York Times in 1919 so we will get exactly the flavor of this fear of substitution.

The New York Times in an editorial in 1919 said, "No one here in New York uses this drug marijuana. We have only just heard about it from down in the Southwest," and here comes the substitution. "But," said the New York Times, "we had better prohibit its use before it gets here. Otherwise" -- here's the substitution concept -- "all the heroin and hard narcotics addicts cut off from their drug by the Harrison Act and all the alcohol drinkers cut off from their drug by 1919 alcohol Prohibition will substitute this new and unknown drug marijuana for the drugs they used to use."

Well, from state to state, on the theory that this newly encountered drug marijuana would be substituted by the hard narcotics addicts or by the alcohol drinkers for their previous drug that had been prohibited, state to state this fear of substitution carried, and that accounted for 26 of the 27 states -- that is, either the anti-Mexican sentiment in the Southwest and Rocky Mountain areas or fear of substitution in the Northeast. That accounted for 26 of the 27 states, and there was only one state left over. It was the most important state for us because it was the first state ever to enact a criminal law against the use of marijuana and it was the state of Utah.

Now, if you have been hearing this story and you have been playing along with me, you think "Oh, wait a minute, Whitebread, Utah fits exactly with Colorado, Montana, -- it must have been the Mexicans."

Well, that's what I thought at first. But we went and did a careful study of the actual immigration pattern and found, to our surprise, that Utah didn't have then, and doesn't have now, a really substantial Mexican-American population. So it had to be something else.

Come on folks, if it had to be something else, what do you think it might have been? Are you thinking what I was thinking -- that it must have had something to do with the single thing which makes Utah unique in American history -- its association with the Mormon church.

With help from some people in Salt Lake City, associated with the Mormon Church and the Mormon National Tabernacle in Washington -- with their help and a lot of work we found out what the genesis was of the first marihuana law in this country. Yes, it was directly connected to the history of Utah and Mormonism and it went like this.

I think that a lot of you know that, in its earliest days, the Mormon church permitted its male members to have more than one wife -- polygamy. Do you all know that in 1876, in a case called Reynolds against the United States, the United States Supreme Court said that Mormons were free to believe what they wanted, but they were not free to practice polygamy in this country. Well, who do you think enforced that ruling of the Supreme Court in 1876? At the end of the line, who enforces all rulings of the Supreme Court? Answer: the state and local police. And who were they in Utah then? All Mormons, and so nothing happened for many years. Those who wanted to live polygamously continued to do so.

In 1910, the Mormon Church in synod in Salt Lake City decreed polygamy to be a religious mistake and it was banned as a matter of the Mormon religion. Once that happened, there was a crackdown on people who wanted to live in what they called "the traditional way". So, just after 1910, a fairly large number of Mormons left the state of Utah, and indeed left the United States altogether and moved into northwest Mexico. They wrote a lot about what they wanted to accomplish in Mexico. They wanted to set up communities where they were basically going to convert the Indians, the Mexicans, and what they referred to as "the heathen" in the neighborhood to Mormonism.

By 1914, they had had very little luck with the heathen, but our research shows now beyond question that the heathen had a little luck with them. What happened apparently -- now some of you who may be members of the church, you know that there are still substantial Mormon communities in northwest Mexico -- was that, by and large most of the Mormons were not happy there, the religion had not done well there, they didn't feel comfortable there, they wanted to go back to Utah where there friends were and after 1914 did.

And with them, the Indians had given them marijuana. Now once you get somebody back in Utah with the marijuana it all becomes very easy, doesn't it? You know that the Mormon Church has always been opposed to the use of euphoriants of any kind. So, somebody saw them with the marijuana, and in August of 1915 the Church, meeting again in synod in Salt Lake City decreed the use of marijuana contrary to the Mormon religion and then -- and this is how things were in Utah in those days -- in October of 1915, the state legislature met and enacted every religious prohibition as a criminal law and we had the first criminal law in this country's history against the use of marijuana.

That digression into the early state marijuana laws aside, we will now get back on the Federal track, the year is 1937 and we get the national marijuana prohibition -- the Marihuana Tax Act

Now, first again, does everybody see the date, 1937? You may have thought that we have had a national marijuana prohibition for a very long time. Frankly, we haven't.

The marijuana prohibition is part and parcel of that era which is now being rejected rather generally -- the New Deal era in Washington in the late 30s.

Number two, you know, don't you, that whenever Congress is going to pass a law, they hold hearings. And you have seen these hearings. The hearings can be extremely voluminous, they go on and on, they have days and days of hearings. Well, may I say, that the hearings on the national marijuana prohibition were very brief indeed. The hearings on the national marijuana prohibition lasted one hour, on each of two mornings and since the hearings were so brief I can tell you almost exactly what was said to support the national marijuana prohibition.

Now, in doing this one at the FBI Academy, I didn't tell them this story, but I am going to tell you this story. You want to know how brief the hearings were on the national marijuana prohibition?

When we asked at the Library of Congress for a copy of the hearings, to the shock of the Library of Congress, none could be found. We went "What?" It took them four months to finally honor our request because -- are you ready for this? -- the hearings were so brief that the volume had slid down inside the side shelf of the bookcase and was so thin it had slid right down to the bottom inside the bookshelf. That's how brief they were. Are you ready for this? They had to break the bookshelf open because it had slid down inside.

There were three bodies of testimony at the hearings on the national marijuana prohibition.

The first testimony came from Commissioner Harry Anslinger, the newly named Commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. Now, I think some of you know that in the late 20s and early 30s in this country there were two Federal police agencies created, the FBI and the FBN -- the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Federal Bureau of Narcotics.

I have been known to talk at great length about how different the history of these two organizations really are. But, the two organizations, the FBI and the FBN had some surface similarities and one of them was that a single individual headed each of them for a very long time. In the case of the FBI, it was J. Edgar Hoover, and in the case of the FBN it was Harry Anslinger, who was the Commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics from 1930 until 1962.

Commissioner Anslinger gave the Government testimony and I will quote him directly. By the way, he was not working from a text that he had written. He was working from a text that had been written for him by a District Attorney in New Orleans, a guy named Stanley. Reading directly from Mr. Stanley's work, Commissioner Anslinger told the Congressmen at the hearings, and I quote, "Marihuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death." That was the Government testimony to support the marijuana prohibition from the Commissioner.

The next body of testimony -- remember all of this took a total of two hours -- uh .. You understand what the idea was, don't you? The idea was to prohibit the cultivation of hemp in America. You all know, because there has been some initiative in California, that hemp has other uses than its euphoriant use. For one, hemp has always been used to make rope. Number two, the resins of the hemp plant are used as bases for paints and varnishes. And, finally, the seeds of the hemp plant are widely used in bird seed. Since these industries were going to be affected the next body of testimony came from the industrial spokesmen who represented these industries.

The first person was the rope guy. The rope guy told a fascinating story -- it really is fascinating -- the growth of a hemp to make rope was a principle cash crop right where I am from, Northern Virginia and Southern Maryland at the time of the Revolutionary War. But, said the rope guy, by about 1820 it got cheaper to import the hemp we needed to make rope from the Far East and so now in 1937 we don't grow any more hemp to make rope in this country -- it isn't needed anymore.

If you heard that story, there are two things about it that I found fascinating. Number one, it explains the long-standing rumor that our forefathers had something to do with marijuana. Yes, they did -- they grew it. Hemp was the principal crop at Mount Vernon. It was a secondary crop at Monticello. Now, of course, in research no one has found any evidence that any of our forefathers had used the hemp plant for euphoriant purposes, but they did grow it.

The second part of that story that, to me is even more interesting is -- did you see the date again - 1937? What did the rope guy say? We can get all the hemp we need to make rope from the Far East, we don't grow it hear anymore because we don't need to.

Five years later, 1942, we are cut off from our sources of hemp in the Far East. We need a lot of hemp to outfit our ships for World War II, rope for the ships, and therefore, the Federal Government, as some of you know, went into the business of growing hemp on gigantic farms throughout the Midwest and the South to make rope to outfit the ships for World War II.

So, even to this day, if you are from the Midwest you will always meet the people who say, "Gosh, hemp grows all along the railroad tracks." Well, it does. Why? Because these huge farms existed all during World War II.

But, the rope people didn't care. The paint and varnish people said "We can use something else." And, of the industrial spokesmen, only the birdseed people balked. The birdseed people were the ones who balked and the birdseed person was asked, "Couldn't you use some other seed?"

These are all, by the way, direct quotes from the hearings. The answer the birdseed guy gave was, "No, Congressman, we couldn't. We have never found another seed that makes a birds coat so lustrous or makes them sing so much."

So, on the ground that the birdseed people needed it -- did you know that the birdseed people both got and kept an exemption from the Marihuana Tax Act right through this very day for so-called "denatured seeds"?

In any event, there was Anslinger's testimony, there was the industrial testimony -- there was only one body of testimony left at these brief hearings and it was medical. There were two pieces of medical evidence introduced with regard to the marijuana prohibition.

The first came from a pharmacologist at Temple University who claimed that he had injected the active ingredient in marihuana into the brains of 300 dogs, and two of those dogs had died. When asked by the Congressmen, and I quote, "Doctor, did you choose dogs for the similarity of their reactions to that of humans?" The answer of the pharmacologist was, "I wouldn't know, I am not a dog psychologist."

Well, the active ingredient in marijuana was first synthesized in a laboratory in Holland after World War II. So what it was this pharmacologist injected into these dogs we will never know, but it almost certainly was not the active ingredient in marijuana.

The other piece of medical testimony came from a man named Dr. William C. Woodward. Dr. Woodward was both a lawyer and a doctor and he was Chief Counsel to the American Medical Association. Dr. Woodward came to testify at the behest of the American Medical Association saying, and I quote, "The American Medical Association knows of no evidence that marihuana is a dangerous drug."

What's amazing is not whether that's true or not. What's amazing is what the Congressmen then said to him. Immediately upon his saying, and I quote again, "The American Medical Association knows of no evidence that marihuana is a dangerous drug.", one of the Congressmen said, "Doctor, if you can't say something good about what we are trying to do, why don't you go home?"

That's an exact quote. The next Congressman said, "Doctor, if you haven't got something better to say than that, we are sick of hearing you."

Now, the interesting question for us is not about the medical evidence. The most fascinating question is: why was this legal counsel to the most prestigious group of doctors in the United States treated in such a high-handed way? And the answer makes a principle thesis of my post -- and that is -- you've seen it, you've been living it the last ten years. The history of drugs in this country perfectly mirrors the history of this country.

So look at the date -- 1937 -- what's going on in this country? Well, a lot of things, but the number one thing was that, in 1936, President Franklin Roosevelt was reelected in the largest landslide election in this country's history till then. He brought with him two Democrats for every Republican, all, or almost all of them pledged to that package of economic and social reform legislation we today call the New Deal.

And, did you know that the American Medical Association, from 1932, straight through 1937, had systematically opposed every single piece of New Deal legislation. So that, by 1937, this committee, heavily made up of New Deal Democrats is simply sick of hearing them: "Doctor, if you can't say something good about what we are trying to do, why don't you go home?"

So, over the objection of the American Medical Association, the bill passed out of committee and on to the floor of Congress. Now, some of you may think that the debate on the floor of Congress was more extensive on the marijuana prohibition. It wasn't. It lasted one minute and thirty-two seconds by my count and, as such, I will give it to you verbatim.

The entire debate on the national marijuana prohibition was as follows -- Are you ready? The bill was brought on to the floor of the House of Representatives -- there never was any Senate debate on it not one word -- 5:45 Friday afternoon, August 20. Now, in pre-air-conditioning Washington, who was on the floor of the House? Not very many people.

Speaker Sam Rayburn called for the bill to be passed on "tellers". Does everyone know "tellers"? Did you know that for the vast bulk of legislation in this country, there is not a recorded vote. It is simply, more people walk past this point than walk past that point and it passes -- it's called "tellers". They were getting ready to pass this thing on tellers without discussion and without a recorded vote when one of the few Republicans left in Congress, a guy from upstate New York, stood up and asked two questions, which constituted the entire debate on the national marijuana prohibition.

"Mr. Speaker, what is this bill about?"

To which Speaker Rayburn replied, "I don't know. It has something to do with a thing called marihuana. I think it's a narcotic of some kind."

Undaunted, the guy from Upstate New York asked a second question, which was as important to the Republicans as it was unimportant to the Democrats. "Mr. Speaker, does the American Medical Association support this bill?"

In one of the most remarkable things I have ever found in any research, a guy who was on the committee, and who later went on to become a Supreme Court Justice, stood up and -- do you remember? The AMA guy was named William C. Woodward -- a member of the committee who had supported the bill leaped to his feet and he said, "Their Doctor Wentworth came down here. They support this bill 100 percent." It wasn't true, but it was good enough for the Republicans. They sat down and the bill passed on tellers, without a recorded vote.

In the Senate there never was any debate or a recorded vote, and the bill went to President Roosevelt's desk and he signed it and we had the national marijuana prohibition.

Now, the next step in our story is the period from 1938 to 1951. I have three stories to tell you about 1938 to 1951.

The first of them. Immediately after the passage of the national marijuana prohibition, Commissioner Anslinger decided to hold a conference of all the people who knew something about marijuana -- a big national conference. He invited forty-two people to this conference. Here is an exact transcript.

The first morning of the conference of the forty-two people that Commissioner Anslinger invited to talk about marijuana, 39 of them got up and said some version of "Gee, Commissioner Anslinger, I don't know why you asked me to this conference, I don't know anything about marijuana."

That left three people. Dr. Woodward and his assistant -- you know what they thought.

That left one person -- the pharmacologist from Temple University -- the guy with the dogs.

And what do you think happened as a result of that conference? Commissioner Anslinger named the pharmacologist from Temple University the Official Expert of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics about marijuana, a position the guy held until 1962. Now, the irony of trying to find out what the drug did after it had been prohibited -- finding out that only one person agrees with you -- and naming him the Official Expert, speaks for itself.

The next story from this time period was a particular favorite of the police groups to whom I spoke at the FBI Academy, because it is a law enforcement story.

After national marijuana prohibition was passed, Commissioner Anslinger found out, or got reports, that certain people were violating the national marijuana prohibition and using marijuana and, unfortunately for them, they fell into an identifiable occupational group. Who were flouting the marijuana prohibition? Jazz musicians. And so, in 1947, Commissioner Anslinger sent out a letter, I quote it verbatim, "Dear Agent So-and-so, Please prepare all cases in your jurisdiction involving musicians in violation of the marijuana laws. We will have a great national round-up arrest of all such persons on a single day. I will let you know what day."

That letter went out on, I think, October 24, 1947. The responses by the resident agents were all in the file. My favorite -- at the bottom line, there wasn't a single resident agent who didn't have reservations about this idea -- came from the Hollywood agent. This is the exact letter of the FBN agent in charge in Hollywood.

"Dear Commissioner Anslinger,

I have your letter of October 24. Please be advised that the musical community here in Hollywood are unionized and very tight we have been unable to get an informant inside it. So, at the present time, we have no cases involving musicians in violation of the marihuana laws."

For the next year and a half, Commissioner Anslinger got those kinds of letters. He never acknowledged any of the problems that the agents said they were having with this idea and always wrote them back the same letter.

"Dear Agent so-and-so,

Glad to hear you are working hard to give effect to my directive of October 24, 1947. We will (and he always underlined the word 'will') have a great national round-up arrest of musicians in violation of the marijuana laws all on a single day. Don't worry, I will let you know what day."


This went on -- and, of course, you know that some jazz musicians were, in fact, arrested in the late 40's -- this all went on until it ended just the way it began -- with something that Anslinger said. Commissioner Anslinger was testifying before a Senate Committee in 1948. He was saying, "I need more agents." And, of course, the Senators asked him why.

"Because there are people out there violating the marijuana laws."

Well, you know what the Senators asked -- "Who?"

And in a moment that every Government employee should avoid like the plague, Anslinger first said, "Musicians." But then he looked up at that Senate committee and he gave them a little piece of his heart and said the single line which provoked the most response in this country's history about the non-medical use of drugs. Anslinger said, "And I don't mean good musicians, I mean jazz musicians."

Friends, there is no way to tell you what a torrent ensued. Within 24 hours, 76 newspaper editorials slammed him, including special editions the then booming trade press of the jazz music industry. With three days, the Department of the Treasury had received fifteen thousand letters. Here was a typical one, and it was spot on.

"Dear Commissioner Anslinger,

I applaud your efforts to rid America of the scourge of narcotics addiction. If you are as ill-informed about that as you are about music, however, you will never succeed."

In the Commissioner's own appointment book, five days after he says "I don't mean good musicians, I mean jazz musicians." there is a notation: 10 AM -- appointment with the Secretary of the Treasury." Well, I don't know what happened at that appointment, but from that appointment on, no mention is ever made again of the great national round-up arrest of musicians in violation of the marijuana laws all on a single day, much to the delight of the agents who never had any heart for it in the first place.

The final story from this period is my favorite story from this period. You know, if you talk to your parents or grandparents -- that's the generation we really need to talk to -- people who were adults during the late 30's and 40's. And you talk to them about marijuana in particular you would be amazed at the amazing reputation that marijuana has among the generation ahead of you as to what it does to its users.

In the late 30's and early 40's marihuana was routinely referred to as "the killer drug", "the assassin of youth". You all know "reefer madness", right? Where did these extraordinary stories that circulated in this country about what marijuana would do to its users come from?

The terrific reputation that marijuana got in the late 30s and early 40s stemmed from something Anslinger had said. Does everybody remember what Anslinger said about the drug? "Marihuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."

Well, this time the magic word -- come along lawyers out there, where's the magic word? -- Insanity. Marihuana use, said the Government, would produce insanity.

And, sure enough, in the late 30s and early 40s, in five really flamboyant murder trials, the defendant's sole defense was that he -- or, in the most famous of them, she -- was not guilty by reason of insanity for having used marijuana prior to the commission of the crime.

All right, it's time to take you guys back to class here. If you are going to put on an insanity defense, what do you need? You need two things, don't you? Number one, you need an Expert Witness.

Where, oh where, in this story, are we going to find an expert witness? Here it comes -- sure enough -- the guy from Temple University -- the guy with the dogs. I promise you, you are not going to believe this.

In the most famous of these trials, what happened was two women jumped on a Newark, New Jersey bus and shot and killed and robbed the bus driver. They put on the marijuana insanity defense. The defense called the pharmacologist, and of course, you know how to do this now, you put the expert on, you say "Doctor, did you do all of this experimentation and so on?" You qualify your expert. "Did you write all about it?" "Yes, and I did the dogs" and now he is an expert. Now you ask him what? You ask the doctor "What have you done with the drug?" And he said, and I quote, "I've experimented with the dogs, I have written something about it and" -- are you ready -- "I have used the drug myself."

What do you ask him next? "Doctor, when you used the drug, what happened?"

With all the press present at this flamboyant murder trial in Newark New Jersey, in 1938, the pharmacologist said, and I quote, in response to the question "When you used the drug, what happened?", his exact response was: "After two puffs on a marijuana cigarette, I was turned into a bat."

He wasn't done yet. He testified that he flew around the room for fifteen minutes and then found himself at the bottom of a two-hundred-foot high ink well

Well, friends, that sells a lot of papers. What do you think the Newark Star Ledger headlines the next day, October 12, 1938? "Killer Drug Turns Doctor to Bat!"

What else do we need to put on an insanity defense? We need the defendant's testimony -- himself or herself. OK, you put defendant on the stand, what do you ask? "What happened on the night of . ."

"Oh, I used marijuana."

"And then what happened?"

And, if the defendant wants to get off, what is he or she going to say? "It made me crazy."

You know what the women testified? In Newark they testified, and I quote, "After two puffs on a marijuana cigarette my incisor teeth grew six inches long and dripped with blood."

This was the craziest business you ever saw. Every one of these so-called marijuana insanity defenses were successful.

The one in New York was just outlandish. Two police officers were shot and killed in cold blood. The defendant puts on the marijuana insanity defense and, in that case, there was never even any testimony that the defendant had even used marijuana. The testimony in the New York case was that, from the time the bag of marijuana came into his room it gave off "homicidal vibrations", so he started killing dogs, cats, and ultimately two police officers.

Commissioner Anslinger, sitting in Washington, seeing these marijuana insanity defenses, one after another successful, he writes to the pharmacologist from Temple University and says, "If you don't stop testifying for the defense in these matters, we are going to revoke your status as the Official Expert of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics." He didn't want to lose his status, so he stopped testifying, nobody else would testify that marijuana had turned them into a bat, and so these insanity defenses were over but not before marijuana had gotten quite a reputation, indeed.

The next step -- and now we are going to move very quickly here -- in 1951. We get a whole new drug law called the Boggs Act and it is important to us for only two reasons.

Number one, it reflects what I am going to call the formula for drug legislation in this country. Here is the formula. The formula really is always the same, think about it in our lifetime.

The formula is that someone, and by the way, that someone is usually the media, perceive an increase in drug use. What's the answer? The answer in the history of this country is always the same -- a new criminal law with harsher penalties in every single offense category.

Where did the perception come from this time? Well, if you have ever seen movies from this time period like High School Confidential, the perception was that kids in high school were starting to use drugs. What's the answer? The answer is always the same. The Boggs Act of 1951 quadrupled the penalties in every single offense category and, by the way, the Boggs Act had a whole new rationale for the marijuana prohibition.

Do you remember the old rationale -- that marijuana was an addictive drug which caused in its users insanity, criminality, and death? Just before Anslinger was to testify on the Boggs Act, the doctor who ran for the Government the Lexington, Kentucky narcotics rehabilitation clinic testified ahead of Anslinger and testified that the medical community knew that marijuana wasn't an addictive drug,. It doesn't produce death, or insanity, and instead of producing criminality, it probably produces passivity, said the doctor.

Who was the next witness? Anslinger. And, if you see, that the rug had been pulled out from under everything he had said in the 1937 hearings to support the marijuana prohibition. In what I call a really slick Federal shuffle -- Anslinger, you know, had been bitten bad enough by what he said, he didn't want that again -- he said, the doctor is right, marijuana -- he always believed, by the way, that there was something in marijuana which produced criminality -- is not an addictive drug, it doesn't produce insanity or death but it is "the certain first step on the road to heroin addiction." And the notion that marijuana was the stepping stone to heroin became, in 1951, the sole rationale for the national marijuana prohibition. It was the first time that marijuana was lumped with all the other drugs and not treated separately, and we multiply the penalties in every offense category.

By the way, I told you that the history of drug legislation reflects the history of the country. 1951, what's going on? The Korean War, the Cold War. It didn't take the press a minute to see this perceived use in drug use among high school kids as our "foreign enemies", using drugs to subvert the American young. One of my favorite political cartoonsfrom the era is a guy with a big Fu Man Chu (mustache) labeled "Oriental Communism." He has a big needle marked "Dope" and he has the American kids lying down -- "Free World" it is marked. There it was -- that our foreign enemies were going to use drugs to subvert the American young. What did we do? We passed a new law that increased the penalties in every offense category by a factor of four.

Well, now once you buy it, the ball is going to roll like crazy

1956, we get another new drug law, called the Daniel Act, named for Senator Price Daniel of Texas. It is important to us for only two reasons. One, it perfectly reflects the formula again. What is the formula? Somebody perceives an increase in drug use in this country and the answer is always a new criminal law with harsher penalties in every offense category.

Where did the perception in 1956 come from that there was an increase in drug use? Answer: Anybody remember 1956? In 1956, we had the first set ever of televised Senate hearings. And whose hearings were they? They were the hearings of Senator Estes Kefauver of Tennessee about organized crime in America.

These hearings, which everybody watched on their little sets showed two things that we all know today, but it sure made their socks roll up and down then. Number one, there is organized crime in America and number two, it makes all its money selling drugs. There it was, that was all the perception we needed. We passed the Daniel Act which increased the penalties in every offense category, that had just been increased times four -- times eight.

With the passage of each of these acts, the states passed little Boggs acts, and little Daniel acts, so that in the period 1958 to 1969, in the Commonwealth of Virginia, and Virginia was typical, the most heavily penalized crime in the Commonwealth was possession of marijuana, or any other drug.

It led to a mandatory minimum sentence of twenty years, no part of which you were eligible for parole or probation, and as to no part of it were you eligible for a suspended sentence.

Just to show you where it was, in the same time period first degree murder in Virginia had a mandatory minimum sentence of fifteen years. Rape, a mandatory minimum sentence of ten years. Possession of marijuana -- not to mention sales of marijuana with its mandatory minimum of forty years -- mandatory minimum of twenty years.

That is the situation in 1969 when we have a new drug law, the first one in this country's history that does not follow the formula. It is the 1969 Dangerous Substances Act. For he first time in this country's history, we have a perception of an increase in drug use during the Sixties, but instead of raising the penalties, we lower them. And, further, in the Dangerous Substances Act of 1969, for the first time we finally abandon the so-called "taxing" mythology.

In the 1969 Act, what the Federal law does is, it takes all the drugs we know -- if you can't fill in this next blank, you are in trouble -- except two -- which two? Which two are never going to be mentioned? Nicotine and alcohol. But, other than nicotine and alcohol -- every other drug.

By the way, I tried this with the FBI for ten years and they wouldn't listen, and you won't listen either but, I am going to try. If you are going to go out and talk about drugs and whatever you are going to do with drugs, will you please discard the entirely antiquated and erroneous word "narcotics." Narcotics are drugs that put people to sleep. Almost all of the drugs that we are interested in today don't do that.

So, in 1969, the Dangerous Substances Act gave up the effort to define what are narcotic drugs. What the 1969 act did, and what most state laws still do, is to classify all drugs except nicotine and alcohol by two criteria. What is the drug's medical use? And, what is the drug's potential for abuse?

We put all the drugs, by those two criteria, in schedules, and then we tie the penalties for possession, possession with intent to sell, sale, and sale to a minor to the schedule of the drug in question. Now, again, I am no good at this anymore, I have not kept up with the drug laws, I don't know who is in what schedule, and many states have abandoned the schedule but, to give you a flavor of it: The first schedule, Schedule One Drugs were drugs that had little or no medical use and a high potential for abuse. What's going to go in there? LSD, marijuana, hashish, they are all in Schedule One -- little or no medical use and a high potential for abuse.

Then you get some medical use, high potential for abuse -- what do you want there? Barbiturates, amphetamines,.

Then we are going to get what? High medical use and high potential for abuse. Morphine, codeine. Codeine is the best one because codeine is in almost every single prescription cough medicine and it is addictive as can be.

Then you go on down and get the antibiotics -- high medical use, almost no potential for abuse, and there you are.

Once you schedule your drugs, you then tie the penalties for the drugs to the schedule and then, because in 1969 they wanted to reduce the marijuana penalties they had to deal with marijuana separately and did so.

But the 1969 act important for two reasons again: One, we abandoned the taxing mythology and; two, it was the first law in this country's history that, instead of raising the penalties in every offense category, lowered them.

Well, then you know what happened. We get the War on Drugs. You know how it all went down. We got perceptions in the 80s that there was an increase in drug use, a great dramatic decision to declare war on drugs and, predominantly, war on drug users.

What I want to say to you is this, and this is where I think some of you are going to be a little surprised. You know as much about that process as I do. You watched it. You saw how we had one law after another, raising the penalties so that as late as 1990, thirty percent of the minority group population of America who are male and between 20 and 29 are under court supervision for drugs. Thirty percent, that's the number you are looking for.

The War on Drugs, a very interesting war, because why? It was cheap to fight. It was cheap to fight at first -- why? What was last year's big moment, and the year before? The change in cheap and easy forfeiture. Criminal forfeiture was used to make this a costless war. That is, easy forfeiture from those who were caught allowed us to pay for the war in that way. I think we are going to have some real questions about whether people want to pay for the war on drugs through their taxes because now the Court has made forfeiture much, much more difficult in their overall concern for property rights.

But here is what I think may surprise some of you. You guys know as much about the War on Drugs as I do. I think it speaks for itself. It is a failure and I think it will be judged as a failure. I want to bring to you the truth. This is the story that no one hears. These are the facts. For all you non-smokers that were too lazy to read this... Remember. A dirty hippie libral pot head had the intiative and took the time to write all this.

Edit: Spelling and grammer
 
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Yeah, fuck reading that. >.> I had to scroll the track ball over ten times just to get to the bottom! I suspect I know whats contained within, but thats quite the fillabuster reguardless.
 
Trippyhippy said:
Everyone had lots to say about the topic until facts were presented. I'm glad you all see it my way now.

"When you assume, you make an ass of you and me".

Don't assume that "we all see it your way". I'm curious as to where you acquired this wealth of information.

I'm not challenging you, trippy, I'm merely asking where this came from.
 
Miruyasha said:
"When you assume, you make an ass of you and me".

Don't assume that "we all see it your way". I'm curious as to where you acquired this wealth of information.

I'm not challenging you, trippy, I'm merely asking where this came from.

I was interested in the topic an have studied it for quite a few years. I can tell you anything you want to know about the history of the war on drugs in america.

Most of the info here came from a book a read a few years back, I can't remember the name of it right off hand, but I'll see if I can find it when I get home. Us pot smokers and our short term memeories. We are the ones that will destroy the world ya know :-p
 
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You've made that fact more than apparent.

I'm actually in agreement with you on the War on Drugs being basically a failure. Its like the War on Terror overseas, you can't fight something thats everpresent. You simply just can't stop everyone from doing something, even if its bad for you. America, it would seem, learned nothing from the days when Prohibition was in effect. Human nature came into effect and then we had speakeasys and the like. Same thing now with drugs, you can make laws against them, but that doesn't mean people are going to obey them. The whole point I wanted to get across was that pot, is bad for you in some way/shape/form. The lengthy info aside, pot is smoked (a vast majority of the time), and thats bad for your lungs.


Edit: Brock is t3h shitz.
 
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Trippyhippy said:
Everyone had lots to say about the topic until facts were presented. I'm glad you all see it my way now.
Except it was all about legislation, so it didn't matter. It was an interrsting read tat had nothing to do with what we were talking about. But go you for giving me something to read through breakfast.

It's like we're doing math problems and you bust in and start ramblin' of the history of arithmatic. It's not that you presented fact, it that you presented omething meaningles to the confines of the conversation. It was an interresting read, no doubt, but it doesn't have anything to do with what were were talking about short of pot.
 
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Bigboy said:
Except it was all about legislation, so it didn't matter. It was an interrsting read tat had nothing to do with what we were talking about. But go you for giving me something to read through breakfast.

It's like we're doing math problems and you bust in and start ramblin' of the history of arithmatic. It's not that you presented fact, it that you presented omething meaningles to the confines of the conversation. It was an interresting read, no doubt, but it doesn't have anything to do with what were were talking about short of pot.

I figured everyone was so misinformed I should start with the basics. Lets get to the meat of the subject now. I'll even give you multiple links for tommorows breakfast reading.

Miruyasha thinks pot has more cancer causing chemicals in it than tobacco. 150 different chemicals have been identified in marijuana, but morethan 4000 chemicals are in cigarette smoke, 46 of which are know carcinogens. I can't find a list or anyone citing the name of more than 1 carcinogens, benzopyrene, in marijuana smoke.
http://www.counterpunch.org/gardner07022005.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/23/1728_57309
http://www.ccguide.org.uk/nocancer.php

Then Chasym says it makes people violent. Every serious scholar and government commission examining the relationship between marijuana use and crime has reached the same conclusion: marijuana does not cause crime. The vast majority of marijuana users do not commit crimes other than the crime of possessing marijuana. Among marijuana users who do commit crimes, marijuana plays no causal role. Almost all human and animal studies show that marijuana decreases rather than increases aggression.
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/goode/mjsmokers9.htm
http://www.drugwardistortions.org/distortion22.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4440/is_200511/ai_n16056922

Then Skaw states that marijuana doesn't cause fatalities because it is illegal and if it were legal, it would hold ground with alcohol. One thing he missed was that it is impossible to overdose on marijuana, but you can die of alcohol poisoning. It's not like there aren't a lot of people using it either. According to the UN's estimate, 141 million people around the world use marijuana. Smoking marijuana doesn't impair you as much as drinking alcohol. You also aren't allowed to do it in public. Less people being less impaired cause waaaaay less accidents. If smoking marijuana was legal, there would still be 0 deaths caused by marijuana every year. Skaw is also comes from a family with a lot of military/police if I remember correctly, which has a rather large influence on his opinion.

Then ruffyreborn makes a halfhearted guess that people kill because of marijuana. I've already addresed this one.

Kicamo comes in and says pot had a worse effect on friends in cigarettes. My guess is that the friends that smoked pot stopped talking to her because she wouldn't quit bitchin at em over smoking pot. I know I stopped talking to my friends that wouldn't quit harping on me about it.

In response to post #24, I would also point out to Skaw that caffine is considered a psychoactive substance. So is Dimethyltryptamine, a chemical that is made in small amounts in the human body.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug

Then Ruffyreborn pops back in with the lazy arguement. For twenty-five years, researchers have searched for a marijuana-induced amotivational syndrome and have failed to find it. People who are intoxicated constantly, regardless of the drug, are unlikely to be productive members of society. There is nothing about marijuana specifically that causes people to lose their drive and ambition. In laboratory studies, subjects given high doses of marijuana for several days or even several weeks exhibit no decrease in work motivation or productivity. Among working adults, marijuana users tend to earn higher wages than non-users. College students who use marijuana have the same grades as nonusers. Among high school students, heavy use is associated with school failure, but school failure usually comes first.

I personally believe that it makes you not want to go outside because that is where the police are. Kinda like FFXI players don't want to go outside because that isn't where the computer is. People you know that seem to just drop out have simply found different interests. They want to smoke pot and enjoy activites associated with smoking pot. If you don't want to do that and you bitch about it the whole time, then those people won't come around you.

Post #34, Miruyasha says it has too many detrimental health problems for it to be legal. If you read my post (the one that was way to long for most non-pot smokers to read, even though I'm supposed to be the one with the concentration problem... anyway) you know that isn't true. If you have ever heard of cigarettes, you know that isn't true. In future reports, you should use some sources that aren't so biased.

Post #36, Romperstomper doesn't say one thing that is true. None of the medical tests currently used to detect brain damage in humans have found harm from marijuana, even from long term high-dose use. An early study reported brain damage in rhesus monkeys after six months exposure to high concentrations of marijuana smoke. In a recent, more carefully conducted study, researchers found no evidence of brain abnormality in monkeys that were forced to inhale the equivalent of four to five marijuana cigarettes every day for a year. The claim that marijuana kills brain cells is based on a speculative report dating back a quarter of a century that has never been supported by any scientific study.
http://bbsnews.net/bw2003-07-06.html
http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/brain-damage-marijuana.htm
http://www.marijuana.com/marijuana-myths/myth-08.php
http://www.mpp.org/site/c.glKZLeMQIsG/b.1986689/k.4CEA/Common_Questions_about_Marijuana.htm
http://www.quit4good.com/marijuana-by-PeterKaradsheh.html
And no, you can't regain any brain cells ever. They do not regenerate.

Also Miruyasha keeps going back to the idea that THC is the bad part for you. It is not. The smoke is the unhealthy part.

It took me the better part of 5 hours to type up that first post. There is way more to it than just the facts. There is the political side to it that presents misinformation and propaganda. That was where I was going with the first post.

Edit:spelling and grammer
 
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Trippyhippy said:
So.

Everyone had lots to say about the topic until facts were presented. I'm glad you all see it my way now.

Either that or people aren't gonna waste their time on someone so far in the trenches they can't see out. That and the fillabuster. Weed causes deaths, even if only indirectly, I've seen it, and been witness to more than enough stupidity to know. Legislation, had nothing to do with it, and the discusion was pretty much over when you came in.

Weed is hardly evil, but it's not some wonder drug thats good for you either.
 
Bigboy said:
Either that or people aren't gonna waste their time on someone so far in the trenches they can't see out. That and the fillabuster. Weed causes deaths, even if only indirectly, I've seen it, and been witness to more than enough stupidity to know. Legislation, had nothing to do with it, and the discusion was pretty much over when you came in.

Weed is hardly evil, but it's not some wonder drug thats good for you either.

As you make no counter points. Enjoy your Wheaties.
 
Trippyhippy said:
As you make no counter points. Enjoy your Wheaties.

I never did, neither did you, thats what I'm trying to say. You busted into a thread and got all uber defensive about marajuana, when most people were saying it was fine, but not to be so naive as to believe it was harmless. A few people gave their personal experiences, and you told them they were wrong. If Chasym says he gets violent when he smokes, I'd believe him. No reason not to really. I wouldn't say it is a common effect of the substance, but hell, some people break out in hives after eating nuts, so I don't see why there wouldn't be uncommon occurances particularly from a mind altering drug. You may say I'm comparing apples to oranges, but you were explaining how to plant trees.

Edit: I think the ingestion of pot is relatively harmless, but smoking it is a different story.
 
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Bigboy said:
I never did, neither did you, thats what I'm trying to say. You busted into a thread and got all uber defensive about marajuana, when most people were saying it was fine, but not to be so naive as to believe it was harmless. A few people gave their personal experiences, and you told them they were wrong. If Chasym says he gets violent when he smokes, I'd believe him. No reason not to really. I wouldn't say it is a common effect of the substance, but hell, some people break out in hives after eating nuts, so I don't see why there would be uncommon occurances particularly from a mind altering drug. You may say I'm comparing apples to oranges, but you were explaining how to plant trees.

Did you read the post with the links?

I'm getting uber defensive about marijuana, I'm spotting ignorance and correcting it. So Chasym got violent when he smoked pot. Does that mean he has never felt violent at any other time? It's like people blame anything that happens on marijuana if they were under the influence at the time.

lets refer back to my initial post on the topic.

...in the late 30s and early 40s, in five really flamboyant murder trials, the defendant's sole defense was that he -- or, in the most famous of them, she -- was not guilty by reason of insanity for having used marijuana prior to the commission of the crime.

People in this thread have been doing the same thing. If someone killed a guy and he had a pepsi on him at the time, are you gonna blame his violence on pepsi? It has caffine in it, and that is a psychoactive drug, just like THC.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the laws against marijuana are more harmful to society than the actual drug could ever dare to be. There a lot of non-violent drug offenders put away everyday. These people have families, just like you and I, and they are torn away from them because they want to smoke a little weed. People don't realize what is happening because they can't get by the snicker that comes to mind when someone says "legalize pot". No, not so I can sit around and get high all day, so johnny 1st grader will still be able to see his dad for the next 5 years even though dad wants to smoke a joint.

It pisses me off that no one takes this seriously. I know pot is bad for me. Just like I know that italian hogie I ate for dinner was bad for me. Just like I know the cigarette I smoked after was bad for me. This double standard has the widest gap of any that I can think of, but no one cares. All the can do is laugh and dismiss the "burned out stoners" that say legalize pot.
 
Trippyhippy said:
Did you read the post with the links?

I'm getting uber defensive about marijuana, I'm spotting ignorance and correcting it. So Chasym got violent when he smoked pot. Does that mean he has never felt violent at any other time? It's like people blame anything that happens on marijuana if they were under the influence at the time.
sure ive got violent before, but never as violent and irrational as i did that night. thats why i dont do the shit, stay safe, stay smart.
 
Trippyhippy said:
It pisses me off that no one takes this seriously. I know pot is bad for me. Just like I know that italian hogie I ate for dinner was bad for me. Just like I know the cigarette I smoked after was bad for me. This double standard has the widest gap of any that I can think of, but no one cares. All the can do is laugh and dismiss the "burned out stoners" that say legalize pot.

I think everyone can understand what you're saying to a degree, but stoners have a habit, and I've never met one, including myself when I smoked, of being total fucking abnoxious morons. Maybe it's the tunnel vision that gets them stuck on the most retarded of topics/ideas, or maybe that same tunnel vision makes it impossible for them to notice all the people around them looking pissed off that they won't stop spilling shit out their mouths. It's not like they even argue, they just talk, non stop, about nothing. Hygene is usually sub-par, and a general aura of disrespectful behavior and absolute arrogance follows them everywhere. At first glance you may think I'm describing a teenager, and I am. These stupid shits are the ones ruining the whole movement. No one can take that visage seriously, and knowing that we are just going to see more of that same means we don't want it. There are enough things people try to pass off as excuses for their behavior, we don't need to legalize another.

Caffine doesn't make you tired or groggy, and booze already has firm laws in place that govern it's usage. Take the unhealthy aspects of smoking cigs and combine them with a similar loss of inhibitions that alcohol causes and you have the basic results of smoking weed. Don't try to tell me it doesn't work that way either, I've done it, alot. It makes perfect sense not to want that around and easily available.

Biggest problem with weed is the fact that it is a smokable mind altering drug. And it will work, everytime, reguardless of how much you eat ahead of time, or how much water you drink (unlike alcohol). There's no use like a beer that wont even get you drunk, or a cup of coffee just for the flavor. It will get you high, or buzzed with a hit or two, if you don't abuse the shit out of it. And, if you are in a closed space, you may get someone else high. While smoking a cig in a closed space is inconsiderate because of the smell, you'll hardly be causing the person any changes that will follow them hours afterwards. The same can't be said for weed, and there's nothing legal that even compares. It's an actual hazard to the people around them.

There may be corporate reasons why the government doesn't legalize it, but there are plenty of others as well. Could you really see a government that is cracking down on tobacco, and greatly limiting how it can be used both in public and private arenas, legalizing something like this? I mean ask yourself that seriously. People are being told they can't smoke a cig in the appartments they live in and pay over $1000/month for and have to walk 25 feet from their own front doors to light up, in parts of this country. Legalizing something that is both smoked and an imparing drug is rather counter-intuitive no? There are deffinately states trying to legalize it, but the federal government is a long ways off from giving it the ok.
 
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