Nerf Treasure Hunter!!

[Bajaratt]

When people are waiting to use TP, waiting to use MP, waiting for the mob to be positioned correctly and waiting for the mob to use an ability allowing for them to move in, then it is sluggish an inefficient. You'll get more nukes off and more WS off with a rapid swapping of people.

If you have so few like in Masterorion's case, then yes it makes sense. If there's no one to swap out there's nothing lost by waiting to have it times best.

When however there ARE people who could come in it's different. And it fails to become a question of what job you are, everyone damage dealer is then useful.

You're assuming that we're just having everyone in the alliance sleeping for tp and then popping off a sc when they get it ro we're only damaging kirin through sc + mb. That's where you're wrong, we have rangers and blm's in to damage kirin, then bring in 2 people for a sc and the blm's to mb off. Then we kick out those 2 people and bring in 2 more for another sc. That's keeping a constant cycle of people who are capable of dealing maximum damage to kirin in the alliance at all times, that's called efficiency.

For monks, they're out of the alliance until they're almsot fully boosted, I've been a monk for several of these fights so I know first hand. We pop in, chi blast when fully boosted and then disband. A monk would be a waste of a slot until chi blast is ready after all.

 

[Firestreak]

to help understand our strat, ill fill you in on what i notice...
monks will usually stay out of alliance..use chi blast and tp
in fact, all melee will get tp and will get swapped in and out as they get tp. they will sc when they enter and get out. then next group will come in and do the same. we have a good amount of people taht come with sam main or sam sub. so waiting for tp isnt long of a wait. its a constant process. there is nothing slowing it down period. we usually have 2 summoners come every run. (if not more) they usually use diabolos.

The question being, do you have enough BLMs to constantly swap them. And with sam sub instead of thf sub and opo necklace, do you consistantly get your chain off enough?

If you have 5 BLMs in the alliance but 6 outside standing around, why position a strategy around effective MP usage as opposed to just overpowering?

 

[masterorion]

I don't really understand, you just said you typically have 18-24. You can't compare because with those numbers you are forced to used TP and MP more wisely. It's not overpowering it's just, the most effective for your situation.

not possible. we do your tactics plus our own. the blm are using their mp wisely in the case that its being used for mb, however if there isnt a sc ready, they still use magic in the meantime. with less numbers, it sounds like our strat still works better than yours. im just guessing of course by the demeanor of your previous posts. we finish on average of an hour and 15 mins

 

[masterorion]

The question being, do you have enough BLMs to constantly swap them. And with sam sub instead of thf sub and opo necklace, do you consistantly get your chain off enough?

If you have 5 BLMs in the alliance but 6 outside standing around, why position a strategy around effective MP usage as opposed to just overpowering?

blm is what we have plenty of. not to mention the 3-5 brds that we have for the mp gas station in AND out of alliance

 

[Firestreak]

You're assuming that we're just having everyone in the alliance sleeping for tp and then popping off a sc when they get it ro we're only damaging kirin through sc + mb. That's where you're wrong, we have rangers and blm's in to damage kirin, then bring in 2 people for a sc and the blm's to mb off. Then we kick out those 2 people and bring in 2 more for another sc. That's keeping a constant cycle of people who are capable of dealing maximum damage to kirin in the alliance at all times, that's called efficiency.

For monks, they're out of the alliance until they're almsot fully boosted, I've been a monk for several of these fights so I know first hand. We pop in, chi blast when fully boosted and then disband. A monk would be a waste of a slot until chi blast is ready after all.

It's a pretty standard Kirin strategy, problem being, the more you have to swap, the less time you want to spend with each individual in the alliance setting up for SC and MB. Even if your people are perfect, still need to wait for Kirin to stop to cast. If you have people ready, and you can do 80% of the damage by just going now, and then pick up a new group, then stopping to wait doesnt become more efficient. That's my point you're missing.

Everyone knows SC and MB is more efficient than spam in terms of using the TP and MP, the question is how to use the people. Just because your alliance is ready, doesn't mean Kirin is ready. He doesn't stop on command.

 

[Bajaratt]

It's a pretty standard Kirin strategy, problem being, the more you have to swap, the less time you want to spend with each individual in the alliance setting up for SC and MB. Even if your people are perfect, still need to wait for Kirin to stop to cast. If you have people ready, and you can do 80% of the damage by just going now, and then pick up a new group, then stopping to wait doesnt become more efficient. That's my point you're missing.

Everyone knows SC and MB is more efficient than spam in terms of using the TP and MP, the question is how to use the people. Just because your alliance is ready, doesn't mean Kirin is ready. He doesn't stop on command.

When we have people in for a sc and we're waiting for him to get into a sc position, we're not just standing around watching him. The people in the alliance who are capable of dealing damage to him without interfering with the skillchain are still doing so, black mages included. It's just when he gets into a good sc position, we send in the melee's to do the sc and have the blm's burst. We don't stop everything and wait for him to get ready for us to hurt him, that's what you're missing.

 

[Firestreak]

I would say less than an hour except the truth is I'm not really sure. Sometimes less, sometimes more, seeing as the elemental day and level of kirin varies.

But anyway, I'm not really even sure where this is going. Afterall, none of our strategies relies only BLMs, you in fact argue BLM is already more effective in a group as opposed to spamming nukes. Where's the need for the nerf?

Too be continued... after class...

 

[masterorion]

It's a pretty standard Kirin strategy, problem being, the more you have to swap, the less time you want to spend with each individual in the alliance setting up for SC and MB. Even if your people are perfect, still need to wait for Kirin to stop to cast. If you have people ready, and you can do 80% of the damage by just going now, and then pick up a new group, then stopping to wait doesnt become more efficient. That's my point you're missing.

Everyone knows SC and MB is more efficient than spam in terms of using the TP and MP, the question is how to use the people. Just because your alliance is ready, doesn't mean Kirin is ready. He doesn't stop on command.

the point your not understanding is that it doesnt take as long as your thinking it takes. it doesnt take but 10 seconds to have two people disband and invite the next two people. regardless of wether or not kirin is ready, when it comes to casting magic, the tank can stop in the same spot on every round of the room. all of us know where this spot is because we have it preplanned. also, since we mainly use nin as tank 80-90% of the time, kirin can cast anything he wants (with regards to GA of course) and it wont have a obliterating effect to the tank.
i will have someone parse the info and possibly vid it so you can see. ill even time it for you and count the number of people so you can see how well it works.
you have already stated that you do about an hour and 15 with more people than we have...doesnt that tell you something?

 

[Mai Ikari]

But anyway, I'm not really even sure where this is going. Afterall, none of our strategies relies only BLMs, you in fact argue BLM is already more effective in a group as opposed to spamming nukes. Where's the need for the nerf?

The need for nerf is that while it's (random number, let's say 15%) more efficient to do it (it being just about any HNM, not just Kirin) with SCs, MBs, Chi Blasts, and all sorts of other things resembling teamwork... It can still be beaten by throwing BLMs at it until it dies. Just like they used to do with RNGs. SE's trying to remove that aspect.

 

[masterorion]

I would say less than an hour except the truth is I'm not really sure. Sometimes less, sometimes more, seeing as the elemental day and level of kirin varies.

But anyway, I'm not really even sure where this is going. Afterall, none of our strategies relies only BLMs, you in fact argue BLM is already more effective in a group as opposed to spamming nukes. Where's the need for the nerf?

Too be continued... after class...

its not that there is a need for blm....its more along the lines of needing several jobs to work together to win effectivly and efficiently. a blm cannot burst without having melee to sc first

 

[Firestreak]

When we have people in for a sc and we're waiting for him to get into a sc position, we're not just standing around watching him. The people in the alliance who are capable of dealing damage to him without interfering with the skillchain are still doing so, black mages included. It's just when he gets into a good sc position, we send in the melee's to do the sc and have the blm's burst. We don't stop everything and wait for him to get ready for us to hurt him, that's what you're missing.

How are the BLM free nuking him while waiting for SC for the burst? It's not like he gives you a massively huge window.

And while casting your free nukes you can'...

Be moving to keep up with kirin. He passes you as you cast. Be preparing to MB, you can't cast one spell while you're in the middle of the other. If it shaves 5-6 seconds there's a good chance you're missing that MB anyway. I'd like to see those stats on how often each individual BLM hits the MB and how hard they're nuking.(Because I can dump my MP in like 4 spells max.) Aeroga 3, Aero 4, Aero 3, Aeroga 3(2 if 3 isn't ready yet). And I'm from full to empty. This is quite a bit faster than how often he casts Stonega 3(from the sounds of it the only spell you'll have time to SC off of considering your BLM are free nuking instead of following him in wait for stop.

But must... go ... to class...

 

[Foofighter]

The most profitable BCNM fight involves 2 Ninjas. I've yet to even see an alternative setup that can even win it. It's more profiable than KS30, and just as you can't use KS fights to BS fights, you can't use BS seals for KS fights.

(BS seals are much more common.)

And forget skillchaining kirin. You spend so much time waiting for the opportunity, that you are wasting time you could be spamming nukes and weapon skills on it. You wind up killing Kirin slower. The only reasoning I could see behind it is a huge abundance of WHMs and a poor setup of DDs, to make them unable to deal good damage by just spamming. And no that includes melees, who have a good weapon for the job and thf SJ, and MNK/WHM with all their MND gear.

Not to be snobby, but I have talked to other LS before and they tell me how their kirins take hours, and they need like 35+ people.

I've taken down Kirin with like 20, post RNG nerf in maybe 2 hours. And with 28 people done it in like an hour.

Just to try and explain the effectiveness of just spamming on it. IF SC and MBs are better, I'd do them. It doesn't mean just because I chose not to it's hard, just not reliable.

I do the pcc bcnm with 1 ninja (me) a rdm and any other job and win it easily every single time. 2 ninja not necessary just to let you know. Only thing you are right about is it is the most profitable bc in the game. I have personally seen atleast 7-8 pccs drop in under 20 runs.

We do Kirin with 20-25 usually, average about 50minutes, and we use sc like mother fuckers. Oh, and we have done Kirin with 1 blm in under 1 hour - just ask Bigherb(though he is of the highest quality blackmage). We still rely heavily on rotating monk chi blasts and 5 rng/war with a bard who sc with a rotation of warriors and sams and thfs.

Beastmen seals are a lot less common when you are in endgame and meriting most of the time instead of leveling. I'm pretty sure that I have attained more kindred seals from Ul. Range, TheShrine, and Lufaise Meadows then I have beastmen seals. I have been involved in a manaburn KS30 but only because I had the orb from a long while back and I wanted the Senjrukio(sp?) katana. The katana was well worth the orb and I thank the blms that helped me.

 

[masterorion]

on the other hand, there are those few blm that like to do things their own way and dont like playing with the diverse team. they would rather solo buffalos while the rest of the LS is fighting jorm.....coughodoncough

 

[masterorion]

How are the BLM free nuking him while waiting for SC for the burst? It's not like he gives you a massively huge window.

And while casting your free nukes you can'...

Be moving to keep up with kirin. He passes you as you cast. Be preparing to MB, you can't cast one spell while you're in the middle of the other. If it shaves 5-6 seconds there's a good chance you're missing that MB anyway. I'd like to see those stats on how often each individual BLM hits the MB and how hard they're nuking.(Because I can dump my MP in like 4 spells max.) Aeroga 3, Aero 4, Aero 3, Aeroga 3(2 if 3 isn't ready yet). And I'm from full to empty. This is quite a bit faster than how often he casts Stonega 3(from the sounds of it the only spell you'll have time to SC off of considering your BLM are free nuking instead of following him in wait for stop.

But must... go ... to class...

well, to not have kirin go out of range, what is the logical solution that would coincide with common sense? my guess is to stand ahead of him so he has to run to you. that way, he isnt running away from you while your casting. at most he would have just passed you if you stood ahead of him during the mb

 

[masterorion]

my suggestion would be to come to watch. thats the easiest way to comprehend how this strat works.

 

[Lavi]

BC are by their nature NOT COMPETITIVE. By me entering a BC it doesn't mean you need to wait 24 hours for the burning circle to repop. NMs on the other hand are totally competitive, and you don't hear BLM bitching that squaresoft should nerf all the NMs so they are just as good at making gil as THFs.

They are not competetive great. That is correct, but also hugely misleading. The drops Hierarch Belt and Warwolf belt, once worth 100-200k each are now more valuable to an NPC than the AH. You could once do that KS fight and not worry about walking away still poor. Mind you this was a year ago when 100-200k was a lot more. Now you walk away 40k tops unless a V Claw drops which is still very rare or about 1/10 regardless of what BLMs tell you (Why would they tell you its low and thus turn you away when they stand to profit off you?). Any non-BLM abused KS fight still gives the orb owner some chance of gil every run. Coincidence? Or just plain obvious?

If I camp NM as a BLM, there are fights I can't win solo that a THF can. And their drop rate will be higher. Squaresoft forces me to level THF to camp NMs just as much as it forces you to level BLM to do KS30. Why the god damn double standard easy win. Otherwise they would just make KS runs like a casino slot machine; give the machine your orb and walk away a winner or loser with no actual effort needed.

Wah wah wah. You nerfed me so nerf them... What the fuck does thief have to do with nerfing BLM? Granted that is the OP, but I am still confused as to why you need to bitch they are nerfing your job so another job should get the axe as well. WHM cures better than a PLD, nerf them!!!! A job is meant to have a specific position in a team based game and the BLM is a DD which deals in damage spikes (You hit it on the ball) and most importantly the MB. MB is what makes BLMs the strongest in the game and will continue to make it sought after even after the nerf. You just need to be patient and wait for SE to removed the abused aspects of the game. Does that mean BLM will become any less useful? I highly doubt it.

You're talking about how it's wrong that since you want to stack BLMs to do Ks30 it means you need to level BLM to do it. Well guess what, you can do divine might and you can do KS30 easily without a single BLM.

I hardly consider doing KS30 or DM easy with or without BLM. I do consider manaburns EASY. 16 BLMs all casting Thundaga III at a predesignated time takes no effort and I could have done it having never leveled BLM and buying an account (btw my BLM is 60 atm). No thought, no skill. 2 things SE doesn't look highly upon. They do not look well upon giving things away free which is what manaburn fights are. I am not talking about exp either. Manaburns are decent exp for BLM and take some semblance effort. Manaburning DM is casting 1 spell and Manaburn KS is 2 spells. Not really very much effort for a huge reward if you ask me.

The most profitable BCNM fight involves 2 Ninjas. I've yet to even see an alternative setup that can even win it. It's more profiable than KS30, and just as you can't use KS fights to BS fights, you can't use BS seals for KS fights.

(BS seals are much more common.)

And forget skillchaining kirin. You spend so much time waiting for the opportunity, that you are wasting time you could be spamming nukes and weapon skills on it. You wind up killing Kirin slower. The only reasoning I could see behind it is a huge abundance of WHMs and a poor setup of DDs, to make them unable to deal good damage by just spamming. And no that includes melees, who have a good weapon for the job and thf SJ, and MNK/WHM with all their MND gear.

Not to be snobby, but I have talked to other LS before and they tell me how their kirins take hours, and they need like 35+ people.

I've taken down Kirin with like 20, post RNG nerf in maybe 2 hours. And with 28 people done it in like an hour.

Just to try and explain the effectiveness of just spamming on it. IF SC and MBs are better, I'd do them. It doesn't mean just because I chose not to it's hard, just not reliable.

KS cannot be used on BCNM fights therefore voiding your entire argument. What do you want me to do? Throw away my KS because I can make more gil with my BS instead? Quit while you are ahead. The two have no relations and you are just grasping at straws hoping to gain some sympathy. I am sorry, but I have none to give you. Will the nerf be bad? I can almost guarantee it, but do you think I will care? No, I'll still play the job and you will never catch me bitching about losing my free ride either.

Kirin dead. Mini gods and all. 45 Mins. SC + MB for the win. (Osode dropped too )

 

[alanon]

I do the pcc bcnm with 1 ninja (me) a rdm and any other job and win it easily every single time. 2 ninja not necessary just to let you know. Only thing you are right about is it is the most profitable bc in the game. I have personally seen atleast 7-8 pccs drop in under 20 runs.

Yes, I win this consistently with a Nin a Bst and a "leech" job. You said it perfectly though. It's the same with the Scorp BC, you don't "need" Blm's to win. I am addressing this more to Baj, then foo, foo just happened to say something similiar to Baj.

I still have yet to hear how you guys can possibly justify nerfing an entire job class based off the success of on 2 BCs. Listen to yourselves. You guys have been arguing for multiple pages about different ways to kill shit. What the fuck is the problem?? You apparently have your parity!

 

[masterorion]

Yes, I win this consistently with a Nin a Bst and a "leech" job. You said it perfectly though. It's the same with the Scorp BC, you don't "need" Blm's to win. I am addressing this more to Baj, then foo, foo just happened to say something similiar to Baj.

I still have yet to hear how you guys can possibly justify nerfing an entire job class based off the success of on 2 BCs. Listen to yourselves. You guys have been arguing for multiple pages about different ways to kill shit. What the fuck is the problem?? You apparently have your parity!

the reason why se is nerfing blm is to un segregate the party setups. they notice the fact that blm are doing manaburn parties. se wants to curb that strategy. the BCNM issue is a side effect. hence the reason why its being brought up. in essence, its an xp manaburn setup.

 

[masterorion]

my theory of the blm nerf is that, the only people upset about it, are the people that rely on it. obviously we know odon is pissed about it. he uses manaburn for everything under the sun. this hinders him quite a bit.
if it doesnt affect you because you dont do manaburn, why would you have a need to complain about it?
i plan on lvling blm to 75 in the future, do u see me complaining about this? nope. cuz im not going to rely on what this nerf is going to hinder

 

[Lavi]

I don't see why they would nerf based upon manaburn exp parties. SE already fixed it once with the elemental pets in sea (I think that's correct) so that BLM wouldn't abuse that. If they had such a problem with manaburn exp parties then, why wouldn't they have just corrected the problem outright? I think they see this more of a rewards versus effort issue with KS being the main culprit. BLM parties can pump out 30+ runs in the matter of 2-3 hours, making millions of gil each and never having left a single area or provided their own seals. People come in the hopes of gaining some gil, but most walk away empty handed after having spent time farming seals which should have been a fair shot at some decent gil.