New update information: Ranged attacks and utsusemi.

Taurothar said:
Any RNG who gets his/her panties in a twist about this update should do themselves a favor and quit that job now. I have had a long time knowledge of the Ranger class in DnD and other MMO's, and ours was the ONLY one who didn't have a penalty for fighting too close to a mob. It's logical that you can't fire a bow at a 3 foot range, and that a crossbow would be effective most under a certain distance. Medeival archers were always so far away from the fight even. This concept isn't making the game any worse, it's making it more realistic.

Speculations:
Bow will increase in damage and acc while at a larger range, and decrease if you get too close.
Gun will have low acc and damage at a distance, but higher both when closer.
XBow will be a medium, and have a broader range of effectiveness.

As for the utsusemi thing, NIN tanks have always had horrible hate-control abilities, and only the really good ones will remain, unless we see most pts having a NIN/WAR and a secondary tank. This part of the update is to account for non-tanks taking hits such as RNG/NIN, as said previously, making their hate drop faster so the tank can take back over. Ninjas are just gonna hafta find new ways of hate control, or more skilled BLM/RNG combos to make hate less of an issue. Perhaps this is a lead in to more +enmity gear, and/or a new ability for NIN.

IMHO
Everyone I'm seeing talk about this is thinking about NIN main only it seems, but think again that NIN is the most popular subjob for WAR THF RNG and the rare RDM who solos/ballistas. A lot of this update is SE trying to make it a better subjob for those classes and maybe for the future ones to be added. I think the new jobs will include a new tank and a new buff/debuff class at least. This will counter the complete imbalance in those departments, as there are almost 4 viable options for the other roles, and only 2 each of those. Sure WAR/NIN is a viable tank, before mid range and after 74, but theres a long span where they are best used for their damage output. I also think SE would like to see the return of WAR/MNKs that almost all melee start out as. Only time can tell how right/wrong I am with all of this, but as far as I can see, this is the only reasoning I can come up with, and sorry for the text wall.
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How would you feel if PLD's tanking ability being totally changed to that of other games? PLD and the way PLD is suppose to be used is a holy DMG dealer not a tank as in all other games I've heard/saw/played/been around. Thus making Warrior the only viable tank class like all other games. This is a kick in the nuts to us as the scenario I just described would be to you.

Balancing RNG out with the rest of the melees would just be plain stupid. Thus letting DRK, WAR, etc getting away with being just as badass with less than half the cost of play...RNG have to work harder (be it through farming or RMT..RMT = money you work for thus making you work just the same in a different way) so should reign superior as they usually do unless half assed.
 
Peregrine said:
Ranger may have to balance accuracy and damage, which is what meleers have been doing for years. Moving back may lower accuracy but improve damage or something. It may also force them to stay within AoE range, but that's something most rangers already do anyway. There are too many rangers on the server for SE to nerf them now. I do wonder what rangers will hit IT mobs for now though. It'll be interesting to see if it's a significant reduction.

As far as Nin goes, this won't be the end of ninja tanks. If they can't hold hate, I'll make them do it any day of the week. Also, if SE wanted nin tanks gone, they'd have gotten rid of them long ago. Ninjas are just plain better tanks than paladins in xp parties, and that certainly wasn't intended. Ninja might have needed a slight nerf like this. They were basically immune to losing hate via damage. It's nothing some enmity+swap-ins won't fix. I don't know of many nins who bother with equipment macros. Join the club, nins!
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Try not to make any absolute statements like this, especially when they're false.
 
i gotta go with baja on that, most nin's i run into these days are utsu whores and get pissed cos they lose hate everytime i ...... breath .. it's kinda nice to see that maybe nin's will have to work as hard as plds to not look stupid by losing hate.
 
Strid said:
How would you feel if PLD's tanking ability being totally changed to that of other games? PLD and the way PLD is suppose to be used is a holy DMG dealer not a tank as in all other games I've heard/saw/played/been around. Thus making Warrior the only viable tank class like all other games. This is a kick in the nuts to us as the scenario I just described would be to you.
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First: I didn't question the "role" or "ability" of a RNG at all. I simply talked about the penalties incurred by incorrect ranges.
Second: PLD is a "Holy Damage Dealer" in this game as well, ex. Holy, Banish, etc. PLD is also a enhancer, ex. Protect, Shell, Holy Circle, Rampart, etc. PLD is most often used in conjunction with a mount, typically a warhorse, however this would not play into this style of game, so SE went the direction of being a holy knight, explained basically by the whole Temple Knights system in Sandy.
Third: RNG won't be hurt too much by this update as far as leveling damage and such, once the range effects are learned correctly. All I can see this doing is making it more difficult for RNG to just go out and solo worms through half the game, and forcing the more party based style of play of which this game was built around.
 
From my position, the statement IS absolute. There is no Ninja I haven't been able to fix since level 30. Paladins slow my parties down. Period. All of them unfortunately. Maybe on other jobs that'll change. Until then, ninjas are the best tanks in the game, and they were never meant to be. Yes, it might sound crazy, but ninjas are overpowered. Inviting a hate controller is a small price to pay for what those two can do together in terms of tanking.

Ninjas not being able to hold hate isn't a problem to me. Ninjas being nerfed in the hate department isn't as well. I'll still negate that with ease.
 
Taurothar said:
Second: PLD is a "Holy Damage Dealer" in this game as well, ex. Holy, Banish, etc. PLD is also a enhancer, ex. Protect, Shell, Holy Circle, Rampart, etc. PLD is most often used in conjunction with a mount, typically a warhorse, however this would not play into this style of game, so SE went the direction of being a holy knight, explained basically by the whole Temple Knights system in Sandy.
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Actually, while they may have those abilities they don't do enough DMG to warrent them as a DD's. PLD's usually deal a lot of weapon DMG, which was my main meaning, not through spells though usually they have some nice spells to offer. Also, those spells (in FFXI) are terribly weak to even render being damaging though they do a small bit. There is no viable second SJ option for PLD to commonly use other than WAR clearly making them tanks. PLD's do very little if any DMG in this game, they are tanks and effective only as tanks which by history they are not.

In a way you were doing your #1 though you may not have meant for it to look that way. You questioned a big part of the style RNG was commonly played in other games. I returned the favor but in a more blunt manner.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. SE has made up their minds so that's that. Now to hear how it actually turns out eh? Hopefully it wont be as bad as we all think but it's definatly not making jobs better and it's getting more and more clear that SE hates player innovation (the way players figure out how to do things that were not the traditional / or intended to do). Hopefully it's all going to be ok for you aspiring NIN's and RNG's but I feel really really bad for you ; ;
 
Someone said they may be opposites. Guns at point-blank range make more sense. Then again, so does accidentally hitting the samurai once in a while.
 
Peregrine said:
From my position, the statement IS absolute. There is no Ninja I haven't been able to fix since level 30.
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Go 'fix' a NIN in KRT. You're at that level.
 
Why are certain rangers talking like they're not going to be the top tier damage dealer anymore? You have to pay blah blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

I and most others REALLY doubt this will hurt them so much that they're no longer the best damage over time class. If anything maybe this could put an end to snobbish ranger cannon parties and make them have to party with the rest of the jobs in the game, God forbid that :shock:
 
Cubs might have a good challenge there. The highest thundaga is no problem for me, but a pair of monks versus nin and thief on bones would be tougher.
Edit: Nevermind, thief probably couldn't do it. I bet a sam could though.
 
peregrine level your club up for true strike. I've heards reports of it doing 1k+ one bones. I'm not saying anything either way in this discussion with cubswoo. I'm just giving ya a little hint for fighting bones.
 
My point moreso is that Ninja should never be tanking bones in the first place. Hell, most 73+ parties just have 3 MNKs bounce hate and eschew PLD/WAR/NIN altogether.
 
But that's just as alternative as arrowburn or mana parties nowadays. KRT used to be a disgusting inevitability for anyone but monk. Now it's more of a specialty camp than anything and as such doesn't contribute much to the paladin/ninja discussion.

All I keep hearing is that ninjas can't keep hate. Keeping hate isn't the only thing a tank is. Tanks have two roles: to absorb damage and to keep hate on themselves. Tanks don't tank alone. I can keep their hate for them so that they can have the best of both worlds. And in doing that they become, by far, the best tank in the game. They absorb damage like no other. Their hate is stronger than the best black mage burst. Can't ask for much more in a tank.

What is paladin without their refresher? Worse than a ninja with no hate controller, but the NIN is a bad tank because they can't keep hate alone while the paladin's dependence on MP somehow gets ignored.

Always keeping in mind that this discussion is going this way, because that ninjas are overpowered tanks is a prime reason why nerfing them isn't ridiculous.
 
Or, like others have mentioned, it may not affect direct tanking at all. It may nip easy kiting in the bud. Seems that nowadays everyone's solution to a difficult challenge is to do one of three things:

1. Throw gil at it
2. Imbalance 4tw
3. Kite it

That's probably not exactly what the developers intended.
 
More positioning nazism? :roll:

Ninjas will still be fine, but THFs will probably see an increase in party invites. Ninjas will probably also have to pile on the +enmity gear.

Also, look at it differently, this could be like the food update, you know, the one that stopped all melees from just using mithkabobs constantly. This could force a new style of play for ninjas. NIN/BLM DOES indeed work if done properly; I've seen it. I'd like to see more of it.
 
Peregrine said:
And in doing that they become, by far, the best tank in the game. They absorb damage like no other.
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Again, this is a total fallacy. The are some mobs that a PLD is a better tank for, and there are mobs that a NIN tank is for. When a mob busts out triple attack, or is a monk-type, you will normally want a PLD, since a NIN won't be able to keep shadows up for long. PLD's absorb damage like no other, a NIN dodges. Without their shadows, a NIN is tissue paper, while a PLD is still a brick wall. Hell, my MNK took sickle slash better than a NIN without shadows.

Peregrine said:
Their Hate is stronger than the best black mage burst.
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Yeah, this is wrong too. Unless the BLM got resisted or killed the mob, I've seen BLM's pull hate with MB's plenty of times with both a NIN and a THF in a party. I've pulled hate off a NIN and THF with just auto-attacking so they don't always have the strongest hate.

Lastly, what several people have already said, but that you're ignoring in order to further your "NIN is the best" crap, is that the nerf seems to be more for /NIN than a NIN/WAR. I'm actually surprised that this wasn't built into the game a lot earlier, since SE never intended for NIN's to tank in the first place.
 
No one fights monk types or triple attackers for xp. This is an XP discussion. As such, Paladins have tigers and mandragora. Period. For everything else right down to a weapon, I'll take a ninja. You can take the paralyzega'ing tiger if you wish. We'll be over at the sand cockatrices mopping the floor with their feathers. :roll:

Nin is a powerful tank. Refresh is more of a burden than lack of hate is, and your examples of mobs that ninjas don't want to fight is short, obscure, and irrelevant.
 
Two things...

First off, note that with this change, NINs will probably have to spam other Ninjutsu to hold hate. Meaning that they'll need more tools. And this comes right on the heels of the new NIN tool bundling system, which means that tools take up less inventory space - you can store enough tools for an exp party in just 2 inventory slots (and if nearly 1.3k tools of each spell isn't enough for a party, your parties last WAAAAY too long...) So, while money may be a concern, inventory space definitely won't be.

Next, personally I think that RNG and NIN were too imbalanced. Any time one job gets noticably and significantly more invites than another job that could fill the same role, there's a problem. Think, how many times have you looked at the party list, saw a RNG and a few other DDs, and decided to go with the RNG - not because they work best with the skillchain you've got in mind, or because of who the player is, but simply because that job is better? Same with seeing both a NIN and a PLD seeking - how many times have you invited a NIN over a PLD, even though both are the right level, and both are equally capable of tanking the mob (such as, not picking a NIN tank for mandies)?

Whether it's proven or just assumed that one job is better than another, it doesn't matter - the end result is the same, as one job gets more invites than another.
 
Peregrine said:
No one fights monk types or triple attackers for xp. This is an XP discussion. As such, Paladins have tigers and mandragora. Period. For everything else right down to a weapon, I'll take a ninja. You can take the paralyzega'ing tiger if you wish. We'll be over at the sand cockatrices mopping the floor with their feathers. :roll:

Nin is a powerful tank. Refresh is more of a burden than lack of hate is, and your examples of mobs that ninjas don't want to fight is short, obscure, and irrelevant.
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There's also the Raptors in Valley of Sorrows and the Perytons there too.

Great way to totally blow off everything and only focus on one sentance. My whole post is irrelevant, because no one ever parties off of mandragoras or raptors or ever even heard of them. You forgot about the bats in garliage citadel, where practically no whm's have erase so you get stuck with evasion down. People exp off of those types of mobs all the damn time. Then there's several HNM's and gods where the NIN's just sit out and watch while the PLD's step up and take it like men.

If NIN is the only tank that's worth while like you seem to think, why was PLD ever added? Why didn't SE just delete the PLD job once NIN became a tank? Your whole bias towards NIN's seems based on the fact that you're a NIN and a THF. Your coming off as pissy towards PLD's, maybe it's because they don't need you to hold hate, they can do just fine on their own.

Last, refresh isn't that big a burden if they have some good support. Recast on flash is what, 45 seconds? That's more than enough time for a pld to refresh that much mp. Even if they toss in a cure during that time, they've still not significantly dipped into their mp pool.

PLD is a great tank and so is NIN. Neither is the best, they just have advantages for different situations.
 
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