NIN and RNG gimping: SE strikes again.

Given the unavailability of the perfect scenario 9 times out of 10, I'd say they'd better be prepared to do both if they want to be a pickup partier. If they want to be babysat in a playpen, there's a static. And admittedly, if I wanted my thief babysat I wouldn't be crawling around with a paladin.
 
So a Thief's ideal tank partner is a horrible NIN. Gotcha. So if I decide to take up NIN, I should look closer at THFs when I'm not in the mood to dump gil on my tools?

I'm just trying to understand, since you don't seem too keen on being in parties with PLD tanks nor quality NIN tanks that can handle themselves.
 
A thief's ideal tank is one who can maintain control until the skillchain opener can rip it off them. Plain and simple. Any skillchain partner worth their salt can do that to a GREAT nin. It simply becomes a little difficult when the nin is too good for the skillchain partner. Let's face it--weak warriors, monks, sams, drgs, and even rangers happen. The ninja doesn't have to be bad. Ninjas get these concepts it because they have to get it. Paladins don't get it because they don't have to get it. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be BETTER paladins if they became less of a hate whore and more of a real tank. A tank does not simply take damage mindlessly.

I'm not keen on being in parties with hate whores. Hate whores shouldn't invite hate controllers, obviously. Not all paladins have to be hate whores. The best paladins AREN'T hate whores when controllers are in their party.

For all nins and paladins like to brag, I still make them a better tank than they ever could be alone. I make a firaga III disappear into thin air. It's not about DoT in a hate-controlled party. The tank provokes the incoming mob. Meleers reach 100 tp. And it's over. Skillchain partner rips it off the tank with a weaponskill. Thief puts it back onto the tank with a weaponskill. Mage bursts the heck out of the mob. If it's not over, all the better. Meleers build tp until the mob is dead, and start the next fight with a skillchain. A skillchain that irrevocably places hate on the tank. A skillchain that makes it look like the tank did 1000-2400 damage, then provoked.

Hate-controlled parties are simple. A leads to B leads to C leads to death sets up A. It's simple, but it's mindful. I could see why a monk prefers the mindless "whomg u spam i spam" mentality, but that's not how every party should fight. And I would argue that that is the inferior way to fight.
 
So if you have a poorly equipped opener, you're not useful.

If you have a 'too good' tank, you're not useful.

If you don't have a MB to make 'disappear into thin air,' you're not useful.

If you have too MUCH of a MB so that hate post-SC isn't an issue, you're not useful.

It's a simple matter of party dynamics, especially at endgame. Post 71, maybe 72, all you need is TP build, L3 Skillchain, MB, move on. In the earlier levels where the fights take a bit longer and hate control is a major issue, yes, I always enjoyed having someone who could help a tank get the hate back from my punching (if you consider the use of autoattack and the occasional weapon skill 'hate whoring,' well, guilty as charged.)

That was, of course, when the hate would go back after a fuidama. I lost count of the number of times my Howling Fist would do equal or more damage than the Dancing Edge + Distortion add from 60-65.
 
So if you have a poorly equipped opener, you're not useful.
A tank can only slack off so much before mages start to gain hate just by casting debilitations and haste. In the event that the skillchain opener is utterly failing, yes. I'm not useful. In the event that he's not doing as much as the tank expected, it is the tanks DUTY to lower their level of hate control if it is safe.

If you have a 'too good' tank, you're not useful.
A skillchain partner can only do so much to rip hate. In the event that the tank is utterly failing to match their hate with the partner's hate, I'm not useful.


If you don't have a MB to make 'disappear into thin air,' you're not useful.
Yes. I don't party without magic solid bursters. 90 percent of the damage happens within a 6 second time frame in my parties. That's why DoT is irrelevant in a hate-controlled party.

If you have too MUCH of a MB so that hate post-SC isn't an issue, you're not useful.

The MB shouldn't kill the mob optimally. That's wasting output and setting the next skillchain too late in the next fight. The end of fights are best reserved for TP gain. If YOU have too much of a MB, your blm is dead. Mine's just fine, and can even follow up with another nuke if he feels like the mob needs to die faster.

Post 71, maybe 72,
Blah blah blah...Don't invite a thief to a L60 party! They suck at L75!!! Bump those numbers up to post 73 where nothing checks IT any more, and maybe I'll concede that hate controllers lose their luster. Last time I checked, people don't fight VT's unless they have to. And let's be honest here...monk isn't going to be ripping hate off anyone unless they're fighting skeletons. Almost all of the monks I've partied with couldn't rip mobs off a ninja nonetheless without first using provoke. Post-60 they got better at it. Overall though, monks and thieves really aren't that compatible, which is where some of your misunderstanding may come from. Now if you're better than most monks, yay. This is the real game though, where averages are accounted for.

It's not about your howling fist doing more than dancing edge. That you would say that proves that you just don't get it. It's about the full force of that dancing edge going to the main tank. Not just half of it.
 
And there remains a difference between "useful" and "optimal." I can split my tricks and sneaks if the partner can't turn the mob. No skin of my back. But it's a lot of skin of the general thief's back, because it takes about a million gil to make a solid solo-trick attack equipment swap.

I'm still useful in a party that can't do anything but whore the mob to death. Just far from optimal, and so is the party. In my opinion, from 30 through 73, the best traditional party has a hate controller in it. That means from 30-60 it has a thief in it. From 60-74 it has anyone subbed thief in it or a thief in it.

My parties simply do better than cluster-**** parties for 73 levels.
 
Peregrine said:
So if you have a poorly equipped opener, you're not useful.
A tank can only slack off so much before mages start to gain hate just by casting debilitations and haste. In the event that the skillchain opener is utterly failing, yes. I'm not useful. In the event that he's not doing as much as the tank expected, it is the tanks DUTY to lower their level of hate control if it is safe.
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A lot of the time it's going to take more than a 250 Wheeling Thrust or a 300 Mistral Axe/Kasha to turn the mob, and you know that. But it's the tank's job to lower his hate output and potentially put more people in danger? With a lot of Light openers, it's simply NOT safe.

If you have a 'too good' tank, you're not useful.
A skillchain partner can only do so much to rip hate. In the event that the tank is utterly failing to match their hate with the partner's hate, I'm not useful.
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Passing the blame? If you can 'control hate' so well, control it so if the SC partner isn't doing their job, the opener gets more hate to begin with so grabbing it is easier.

If you don't have a MB to make 'disappear into thin air,' you're not useful.
Yes. I don't party without magic solid bursters. 90 percent of the damage happens within a 6 second time frame in my parties. That's why DoT is irrelevant in a hate-controlled party.
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And why DoT is so useful otherwise, because one resist, one lag spike, one mistimed macro or what have you means the fight just got prolonged for another minute or 2, and the hate is no longer controlled.

If you have too MUCH of a MB so that hate post-SC isn't an issue, you're not useful.

The MB shouldn't kill the mob optimally. That's wasting output and setting the next skillchain too late in the next fight. The end of fights are best reserved for TP gain. If YOU have too much of a MB, your blm is dead. Mine's just fine, and can even follow up with another nuke if he feels like the mob needs to die faster.
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Actually, in a PLD-tanked party, I have Cover for that instance, which allows that BLM to do the same thing.

And let's be honest here...monk isn't going to be ripping hate off anyone unless they're fighting skeletons. Almost all of the monks I've partied with couldn't rip mobs off a ninja nonetheless without first using provoke. Post-60 they got better at it.
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Let's also be honest here and say that, as a Thief, you basically didn't party with Monks until Howling Fist. And you stopped partying with them after 65 because you're both competing for the Light closer spot. And those you did party with were invited because the leader didn't understand skillchain dynamics and picked his/her melees out of a hat.

I'll be the first to say that a MNK and a THF in a party together is, in general, a bad idea. All of the other melee DD classes either deal much lower damage numbers, hit much, much slower, or have poor endgame weapon skills. From 61-75 a well-equipped MNK will hit at about the same speed as a THF/NIN's daggers with a equal or slightly lower DMG rating as a DRK's Scythe. That DoT, combined with strong lategame WS make a difficult challenge for hate controllers.

RNGs are the best fits for endgame THF parties, plain/simple. They deal enough damage to turn the mob, can keep up with TP, and don't require healing if they do grab hate. WAR/NINs are good too, but Mistral and Decimation aren't really super-amazing skills, to say the least.

It's not about your howling fist doing more than dancing edge. That you would say that proves that you just don't get it. It's about the full force of that dancing edge going to the main tank. Not just half of it.
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What I mean is that even with the full force of a fuidama'd Dancing Edge - THE MOB STILL WOULD NOT TURN. In most parties I was in I resigned myself to Counterstance tanking after a Skillchain in every NIN party and a very large number of PLD parties. Either that, or simply dropping target lock and not hitting the mob for 5-10 seconds. And again, this wasn't due to some amazing trick I may have learned while playing, it happened because I hit autoattack and did a weapon skill.
 
CubsWoo said:
Well, hmm.

Let's just, for argument's sake, assume that:

Ranger A is using Sushi
Ranger B is using +attack food

Now let's also assume that Ranger A hits 20% more than Ranger B, but Ranger B hits 20% harder than Ranger A. Let's also assume that each RNG gets 12 TP per shot, and that a RNG now has to stand out of melee range to get optimal DMG and accuracy, so no dagger/axe swings.

Ranger A hits 8 times out of 10 for 100 damage each.
Ranger B hits 6 times out of 10 for 120 damage each.

Total Ranger A damage: 800
Total Ranger B damage: 720

RATP: 96
RBTP: 72

Now let's also assume that Ranger A's accuracy with SW/Slug is the same at 100% TP as Ranger B's accuracy at 150%.

At ranged attack 20:

Ranger A has hit 16/20 times for 100 each, and has fired 2 WS's for 600 each (having gained 100% twice in the 20 possible shots + the TP from the WS.) Ranger A has done a total of 2800 damage in 20 shots.

Ranger B has hit 12/20 times for 120 each, and has fired 1 WS for 720 damage. Ranger B has done 2160 damage in 20 shots.

If you have to wait that long to make your Sidewinders/Slugs count, maybe you'd be helped more with +acc food. But then again, this is only theory, and especially at 71-2+ RNGs don't need sushi to hit VTs unless they want 95% hit rates or better.
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the damage differences are far greater than that cubs, and there's enough r. acc gear out there that a rng doesn't need sushi, it just so happens most of them don't need it. Because i wonder how RNG's did this BEFORE sushi was put in the game!! i mean they'd never hit anything!! ooo wait, they did, all the way from 55-75.
 
Ithenas said:
CubsWoo said:
Well, hmm.

Let's just, for argument's sake, assume that:

Ranger A is using Sushi
Ranger B is using +attack food

Now let's also assume that Ranger A hits 20% more than Ranger B, but Ranger B hits 20% harder than Ranger A. Let's also assume that each RNG gets 12 TP per shot, and that a RNG now has to stand out of melee range to get optimal DMG and accuracy, so no dagger/axe swings.

Ranger A hits 8 times out of 10 for 100 damage each.
Ranger B hits 6 times out of 10 for 120 damage each.

Total Ranger A damage: 800
Total Ranger B damage: 720

RATP: 96
RBTP: 72

Now let's also assume that Ranger A's accuracy with SW/Slug is the same at 100% TP as Ranger B's accuracy at 150%.

At ranged attack 20:

Ranger A has hit 16/20 times for 100 each, and has fired 2 WS's for 600 each (having gained 100% twice in the 20 possible shots + the TP from the WS.) Ranger A has done a total of 2800 damage in 20 shots.

Ranger B has hit 12/20 times for 120 each, and has fired 1 WS for 720 damage. Ranger B has done 2160 damage in 20 shots.

If you have to wait that long to make your Sidewinders/Slugs count, maybe you'd be helped more with +acc food. But then again, this is only theory, and especially at 71-2+ RNGs don't need sushi to hit VTs unless they want 95% hit rates or better.
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the damage differences are far greater than that cubs, and there's enough r. acc gear out there that a rng doesn't need sushi, it just so happens most of them don't need it. Because i wonder how RNG's did this BEFORE sushi was put in the game!! i mean they'd never hit anything!! ooo wait, they did, all the way from 55-75.
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You're only proving the point for nerfing ranger and if I am not mistaken, you were against it. And even if what Cubs said was off, as I sure it is because he probably did not want to over exagerate(sp?), the point still remains if you miss the WS it means you ruined the SC. The main point of the WS is for the added damage of the SC followed by a MB. Yah its great that you get added damage from eatting attack food, but so does every other melee. The only difference here is the melee lacks the proper equipment to make up for not eating sushi. Where is the fairness in that?
 
in that i don't know any other melee jobs that spends 300k per XP party, and don't give me that "If they could they would" because they can't. Not to mention that melee attacks and WS are much more accurate than any ranged attack ever thought about being, we don't wear all that gear to look pretty, we wear it because w/o it we stand no chance in hell of hitting the mob.

Lavi said:
The only difference here is the melee lacks the proper equipment to make up for not eating sushi. Where is the fairness in that?
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i wonder what in the world all the poor poor melee that don't have gear avaliable to them did before sushi came along?
 
We had everyone and their grandma bitching about how Toramas were impossible to hit and not as many parties tried to XP off mobs 11 levels above them.
 
Poor melees? Maybe you should check my gear as a thf and say that again. I have spent more on gear than any ranger thus far. Far more. I have sniper's rings which give me the most accuracy and yet its only 10 acc. whereas a ranger can get more r.acc with other rings and for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. A comparable ring for rangers as a HQ version is about 50k. Sniper's ring is 500k for a NQ and 3-5mil for a HQ. The best ranged acc. rings for rangers tops out at 250-300k with +10r.acc (vs. the 7 of HQ sniper's) and yet still mine is 5 mil. I do not include Behemoth rings because lets face it, there are none and never will be. Or maybe you want to compare ranged weapons? I have a pretty good idea that the ranged weapons available for thiefs are comparable in price to all but Eurytos' Bow(some are as much as 3 mil and for thf only) and yet not every ranger is required to own it. Start comparing those numbers again. The only reason you have to complain is the cost of arrows which again can be reduced with woodworking. But cost was never an issue to begin with. Its the shear problem that rangers can get an abundance of +r.acc redily while other jobs cannot and therefore can eat attack food without a huge loss in acc. Or the fact they can build tp at a superior rate to even SAM.

Oh and the fact that rng's weapon skills tend to miss a lot with WS at lower tp never stopped half the rangers I partied with from using their WS when I had insufficient tp to SC just to build up another 100 tp for when I did.
 
i don't think i've seen this brought up yet, but i might have lost it in the spam. this is gonna have a really suck effect on thf rng PT's. w/ the ranger now having to stand farther away from the mob a thf is gonna lose his TP alot by the mob being out of range when he trys to sata the tank after the rng uses his ws, so the equalizing TP thing has just flown out the window.
 
Ithenas said:
i don't think i've seen this brought up yet, but i might have lost it in the spam. this is gonna have a really suck effect on thf rng PT's. w/ the ranger now having to stand farther away from the mob a thf is gonna lose his TP alot by the mob being out of range when he trys to sata the tank after the rng uses his ws, so the equalizing TP thing has just flown out the window.
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I wish I could find the post i replyed to on this topic. I said something to the effect of: I supprised no one has brought up the fact of THF/RNG;RNG/THF players this means only one ranged or lose out on SATA.

I like the combo of thf/rng for many reasons Mainly puller/hunter also you get great damage all the time SATA plus I ve noticed an increase in rng dmg when sub rng vs. nin. Now it might make it hard.
 
i said i might have lost it in the spam, i didn't read most of the pissing contest between pere and that other guy
 
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