Nuevo corselette, the end of Haubergeon+1

[pchan]

You hit slightly faster, but it doesn't give you any additional attack rounds, so it doesn't contribute to your damage output or your TP gain.

You are the only one that thinks haste doesn't make you do more damage. 1% is 1%, 2 accuracy from torreaodor is still 2% etc ... 24% haste > 25% haste is 2% increase in melee speed, and therefore in killing speed. You argument about about "it's useless because because it doesn't save you a hit" can be applied to almost all melee stats including, for example : attack. Using attack is useless if it doesn't save you a hit.

 

[mdkuser]

The only people who are unable to understand are you and pchan; everyone else seems to understand it just fine. Hell, you even agreed with my position(agreeing that more accuracy was better than 1% more haste in ace/askar vs turban) before the mods deleted the posts; so why you can't understand is beyond me.

So again(100th time, go!): an incredibly small increase in haste(1%) is meaningless, just like 1 STR, or 1 accuracy. You hit slightly faster, but it doesn't give you any additional attack rounds, so it doesn't contribute to your damage output or your TP gain. The fact that you swing faster is irrelevant to the amount of time it takes to kill the mob, because it'd still die at the same time. With that extra haste, you'd be 17% of the way to your next swing as opposed to 15% away; it doesn't matter because you're still not swinging.

say you need to punch a mob 100 times to kill it. it takes you 100 seconds. and 1% haste, it takes you now 99 seconds.

Now say you you have 50 haste. It takes you only 50 seconds to kill it. Add 1% haste. It takes you now 49 second to kill it.

Then say you have 80 haste and get 1% more. You kill it it 19 seconds.

Sure the difference seems as small. cutting one sec from 100 sec is much smaller than cutting 1 sec from 50 sec.

Moving from 100sec to 99sec increased your damage-over-time by 100/99-1=1.01%

Moving from 50 sec to 49 sec increased your damage-over-time by 50/49-1=2.04%

Moving from 20 sec to 19 sec increased you damage-over-time by
20/19-1=5.2%

etc.

The value of 1 haste is all the better, the higher your base haste. 1% haste when you have 20% in haste gear, march, haste spell, is NOT neglectible. its equal to 2% damage increase. Or if you want equivalent to +20 STR on weapon skill...

Thats how haste works. Too many people underrate haste, its the BEST melee stat, and shouldnt be traded but anything else that has an equivalent impact.

 

[Bajaratt]

You are the only one that thinks haste doesn't make you do more damage.

Where did you pull this from? I've never said that haste doesn't give you more damage, only that a 1% difference doesn't have a noticeable effect unless it gets you an extra attack round.

1% is 1%, 2 accuracy from torreaodor is still 2% etc ... 24% haste > 25% haste is 2% increase in melee speed, and therefore in killing speed.

2 accuracy is 2%? a 1% haste difference is a 2% difference in melee speed? Who failed to teach you math?

You argument about about "it's useless because because it doesn't save you a hit" can be applied to almost all melee stats including, for example : attack.

Yes, it can. THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THE WHOLE TIME. All very small differences between stats, especially at 75, are essentially meaningless; it's only when you have a large difference that you see an impact. 1 STR, 1 accuracy, or 1 attack is NOT NOTICEABLE, EVER BY A PARSER.

Using attack is useless if it doesn't save you a hit.

More lunacy that proves you have no idea what's being discussed. I'm saying that the effects are not noticeable in such small increments. In terms of haste, it's an increase in attack speed, in attack it's damage per hit. 1 more attack is not going to give you more damage per hit; but 10+ should; the same applies for haste, 1% probably won't do anything, but 10% definitely will.

bullshit math, and thinking he's the only one who thinks haste is a worthwhile stat

No one's underestimating haste here, you're just dramatically over exaggerating it's importance. It's an incremental improvement over your previous attack speed, just like every other stat in the game. It is not a magic stat that just makes you mysteriously better with no diminishing returns. Apparently you're the one who taught pchan math, though.

You two are the ONLY people who fail at math enough to think that 1% more haste is the greatest improvement you could possibly get. I'm sick of trying to explain something so simple to you two; this is at least the 10th time we've had this discussion and you still can't grasp something so simple.

Oh, where's your blitz rings?

 

[Zoolander]

Eh, you are trying to make a ridiculous arguement. And BTW, check the price on Blitz Rings sometime. Its the ring of choice if you are ever capped acc. I've been procrastinating in getting one for my WAR because its a few hundred k now, but its not "lol" like you think it is/was.

Haste is a big deal and is important to stack, the only time it isnt is if you are getting a significant amount of some other stat that would eventually outweight it. Haste is good to add because the more you have, the better each additional haste becomes. General consensus is that +2acc = about 1% more acc, until you are capped of course. Making some kind of arguement that 1% haste is useless unless it gives you an extra attack round is just retarded, I never understood why you always made that argument. There is 0 chance to know whether that haste will give you an extra attack round or not, its just about making your DD as strong as possible so shit dies as fast as possible and you move on to the next mob etc.

 

[mdkuser]

its actually 1 haste=4 acc on single marches, and 5-6 acc with doubles.

 

[Bajaratt]

Eh, you are trying to make a ridiculous arguement. And BTW, check the price on Blitz Rings sometime. Its the ring of choice if you are ever capped acc. I've been procrastinating in getting one for my WAR because its a few hundred k now, but its not "lol" like you think it is/was.

I'll grant that it's the best thing to add when you don't need more accuracy/attack, but that rarely happens unless you're killing really weak stuff or you have massive brd support.

I know blitz rings are up in price lately, and it's because someone noticed that it's actually useful when you're at capped acc/attack; so it's the only ring worth putting on then. And then everyone copied them, and even though it's a situational piece, they full time it.

Haste is a big deal and is important to stack, the only time it isnt is if you are getting a significant amount of some other stat that would eventually outweight it. Haste is good to add because the more you have, the better each additional haste becomes.

No, it's the same improvement going from 5-6% haste as 20-21%. It's still only a 1% increase; if that 1% actually tips the balance between an extra attack and not, then yeah, it's a big deal, but in general it isn't. The only way that "it's much better the more you already have" works is through crappy math skills and ignoring the entire concept of diminishing returns.

Even If I granted that it actually gets better the more you have, it's not a noticeable improvement; and it's no where near a 2-5% improvement that mdkuser's bullshitting about.

General consensus is that +2acc = about 1% more acc, until you are capped of course.

And general consensus is that it's easily possible to have 100% hit rate and never miss.

Making some kind of arguement that 1% haste is useless unless it gives you an extra attack round is just retarded, I never understood why you always made that argument.

Because it doesn't DO anything. Wow, it takes you 0.1 seconds less time in between attack rounds than it does that guy over there with 1% less haste. But you both only get 4 attack rounds in before the mob's dead; so what did that extra 1% actually get you?

There is 0 chance to know whether that haste will give you an extra attack round or not, its just about making your DD as strong as possible so shit dies as fast as possible and you move on to the next mob etc.

With the dynamics of a merit party, no, you can't guarantee an extra attack round in. But, there's a big difference between an easily possible extra attack round and a mathematically impossible extra attack round.

You should always try to improve your DD, and if you think an extra 1% haste is the end-all, be-all improvement(and you're magically always going to be at capped acc/att), then by all means go for it. But it's not a blanket statement; 1% haste will not always be the best improvement someone can make(obviously since you're stipulating capped acc to begin with); so people need to stop acting like it is.

 

[Uzor]

You're going about it the wrong way. First of all, you're basing your argument at the total number of melee hits you would get. By your argument, if every melee in a party have 25% haste, haste would be useless to them because everyone is attacking at the same speed, thus not granting them an extra round over someone else. Saying that is simply retarded, as it still increases their killing speed. Secondly, you don't know if it will get you an extra attack round. As Zoolander said, it is impossible to show. For all you know, that 1% extra haste might be what causes you to land the killing blow before someone else. Not that it matters, which is why your argument is stupid.

Also, Pchan and Mdk are right. The more haste you add, the greater the overall bonus for it is. The more haste you have, the better the overall gain is for every additional haste you add.

Your math is flawed. Yes, you gain an additional 5% haste, that won't change, but your overall damage is actually increased by 5.2%. Between 5 > 10% it is increased by 5.5%, that is 0.3% higher increase then from 0 > 5. That means your overall increase in damage is now 11.1%, while your total haste is only 10%. From 20 > 25%, that gain is increased to 6.6% net gain. That means that while you might have added 25% haste, your actual increase in damage is closer to 33%.

It is actually rather logical. At 50% haste, you don't actually gain a 50% increase in damage. As your delay is cut in half, your damage is actually doubled. Thus, adding 1% more haste over 50% haste actually increases your total damage by 2%, not 1% as you seem to think. At 25% haste, 1% more haste grants you a 1.3% damage increase. At 75% haste, 1 Haste actually equals a 4% damage increase, and between 79 > 80%, it is further increased to a 5% damage increase.

If you're going to criticize someone about their math, you should really make sure that your math is correct before you do it.

edit: On a similar note, Double Attack works the opposite way, in that your overall damage gain is reduced the more double attack you add. But that's an entirely different discussion, although supports Mdk's idea of Sword Strap being better, unless it messes with your build.

edit2: And before people go argue double attack as I'm sure people will, the gain is linear. 50% double attack is 50% double attack rate, but what you gain from adding more is less. 3% haste will at 0% base haste increase your overall damage by 3%, as you get 3 extra hits out of 100 hits. The same goes with 3% double attack. But adding more haste increases the overall effectiveness of Haste, while for double attack, it is less for every point above 1% you add, which means that above 1% haste, 1% haste gives you a larger benefit to your overall damage then double attack will in large numbers.

 

[mdkuser]

about blitz ring, people generally dont use it because for uncaped accuracy its equivalent to a nq sniper, and always inferior to HQ. Now i forgot what jobs can use it , bu war has a JA aggreesor that will literally cap its accuracy 3/5 of the time, and the blitz will have its place.

 

[pchan]

a 1% haste difference is a 2% difference in melee speed? Who failed to teach you math?

I'm glad you were not my math teacher. 24%>25% is 2% increase since it goes with haste (15%) and march (11%), so it's actually 50%>51% haste which is indeed 2 ish % increase in melee speed :

(1/0.50)/(1/0.51)=1.0204 .. so +2.04% attack speed.

so basically, same bonus as going from double sniper > double torreador, turban > robocop etc.

 

[mdkuser]

Awsome so I just finished a meripo on my ninjar at birds. DEX varying from 113 to 119 ( gimping myself by meleeing in lolrajs, iota ring and lighting bow +1). DEX builds are viable there, I averaged a freaking 25% crit rates , w/o sacrificing any haste. The expected cap of crit% for a senjuinrioko ninja is 20% + 4%(merit)+3% ( senjuin's bonus averaged on both katanas)=27%.

So dex builds work on colibris at least. Now considering its possible to easilly cap dex on those w/o askar head and hands (I was ninjar), said items are all the more usless. The fact that the very same DEX still floored crit% at 9% on most MMJ make dex build completly stupid in general as they will work on only specific mobs...lol.

 

[Khajit]

From what I can tell from my last merit pt mobs fall under 4 basic categories(gearwise) in MMJSP.
It was tested on war until about 152 mobs were killed..

Lurker:No explanation needed

Normal: wear "normal" DD gear. Stabler's count under this section. So do pikemen.


Low eva(can put normal mobs in this category with focus or aggressor on): Philosophers fall into this category but the mithra in the parse had 10% more crits than the rest of the pt. it may be possible that the higher dex of the mithra allowed it to break through the crit floor. however this occured on a lower lv blm mamool. the higher lv ones had the same abysmal crit rate. Skoffins count as low eva or normal until wind wall so kill fast before it can use a tp move.

Low agi: these have low agi values so you can start stacking dex onto them for high crits. Puk. The gear worn was not a dex setup on any of the players but all players achieved 12% crit rate without any crit% weapons so because of their low eva an increase in dex would enhance this crit rate further.

Skoffin(VERY LOW agi apparently but needs a higher sample range by far),Mimers had 20% for the members with higher dex values( me due to not being elvaan and the mithra),
Philosophers if they are the lowest lv they can be. This needs more testing via ebody + augmented barone hands/etc to see if consistent dex floor breaching is possible. The same is true of Mamool ja pikemen unless the absurdly high critrate observed was a fluke incident. once again the mithra achieved this high crit rate,


This needs alot more testing and you can mix/match these 4 basic categories together(eg lurker+normal= infiltrator) but it seems that for a 2h DD you can get away with 3 basic tp setups and 1 lurker setup if you wish to maximise damage output without going crazy and making a setup for each individual mob.