I expect myself and all others who can't sneak/invis themselves to bring oils and powders. If a mage gives me an initial sneak/invis great. I'm off and running to camp and use oil/powder if needed. Enough time is wasted gathering party members and getting to camp as is. This is one nuisance and time waster that can be avoided.
Ok, that's it, if you want S+I, bring Powders and Oils!
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phishn said:
Amen!!!!! Btw guys, I have 3 mage jobs and 5 melee jobs. Again, excuses are like assholes, everyone has one. Buy the meds.
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Simple rules (which, being me, will turn into a giant post anyway):
- If a mage can safely give you a sneak/invis to get you going at the zone line (which they usually can: rare is the zone line where it's unsafe to cast), by all means, they might as well. There's no need to waste anyone's money if the only concern is saving MP.
- If *all* of the following statements are true in regards to sneak/invis in a dangerous spot, then the mage should, again, take care of it, because the only thing that's lost is MP. If not, take care of it yourself with items.
1. The mage is not putting themselves at risk for your benefit. If there's a magic-aggro nearby (which *will* aggro the casting) or a sight-aggro nearby (which *may* aggro the mage when their invis drops upon casting), the mage should not risk (or guarantee) death to save you gil.
2. You are exercising common sense. Don't wait for your sneak in the middle of a pile of Robber Crabs, for example. And if you expect a mage to babysit you with sneak/invis, it's pretty damn stupid to run way off ahead, rather than sticking close to the mage.
3. You understand how sneak/invis *works*. It gives warning messages before it conks out. Take this time to find a safe spot to recast (or be recasted on), and if you're having a mage cast on you, let them know *at the first warning*. The mage does not get the warning messages except for *their own* sneak/invis. Demonstrate that your brain has cognitive and communicative functions, and *tell them*.
Also, the old sneak/invis effect needs to be gone before a new one can be put in place. Whether you're putting the effect on yourself or on someone else, know how to cancel your effects. There's also the recast on Sneak/Invis to consider. If a mage has to Invis you, they then have to stand around at risk of aggro for about 10 seconds before they can Invis themselves back to safety.
Side note, which far too people are unaware of:
Since casting invis, using tonko, using a prism powder ... all of these actions will *themselves* cancel invis "by doing something", you don't need to manually cancel. The act of recasting *on yourself* will cancel invis just before the new one lands.
Because of this, there is no excuse whatsoever for getting sight-aggro, unless you have to drop invis for another reason - most commonly replacing *sneak*, when you have to dodge both sound and sight aggros. You can recast invis on yourself right in front of a sight-aggro enemy, and it will never ever see you. (So long as the invis drops due to the casting, and not due to wearing off with time.)
This does not apply to having someone else invis you - because although an invis drops, namely the other person's, it's not the same one as is being replaced, namely yours. And it doesn't apply to sneak at all, because none of these actions automatically cancel sneak.
Other notes/advice:
Sneak and Invis will aggro magic-aggros such as elementals or arcana. Tonko will not. Items will not. In places such as Ro'Maeve or Ru'Avitau, even mages need to use items, even for themselves. And thus they certainly can't use spells on other people.
*Everyone*, mage or not, should carry a full stack of oils and a full stack of powders at all times. (I can only think of one situation where you might want more than one stack on you, and that's going through Ifrit's Cauldron to Yuhtunga for ZM5. And then it's only because you'd be sitting around waiting for flame spouts.)
Keep another full/partial stack in your mog safe. When you get back to town after using a few from your inventory-stack, refill your inventory-stack to full with the ones in your mog safe. When your mog safe runs out, buy a new stack and put it in there.
On any given outing, you will likely use anywhere from 0 to - in a *very* extreme situation - maybe half a dozen of these. Usually 0, sometimes 1-2 on average however. Rarely is it more. It takes a long time to go through a stack, so even though the stack *is* over 10K, it's not like you'll be burning through a stack of items every time you go somewhere.
Even if you do, just suck it up and figure it into mandatory expenses like food and equipment, don't treat it as something optional which you can't be bothered to buy (or bring).
-----------------------------------------------
And Cythe ... if-clause number 1 above applies even if the mage would be putting themselves at risk for the benefit of a tank who can protect them. Because who's to say that mage + tank can duo whatever enemy (or perhaps plural enemies) happen to aggro them? It's very possible that all you'll accomplish is get *both of you* killed, if you tried a stunt like that. (Depends on the enemy that aggros and how strong it is, of course.)
The most you can reliably say is "mage + tank can survive for a minute or two until the rest of the party gets there", and you can't necessarily assume that the rest of the party is a. close enough, b. able to find you, or c. able to get there without aggro *themselves*. So you can hardly depend on that eventuality either.
- If a mage can safely give you a sneak/invis to get you going at the zone line (which they usually can: rare is the zone line where it's unsafe to cast), by all means, they might as well. There's no need to waste anyone's money if the only concern is saving MP.
- If *all* of the following statements are true in regards to sneak/invis in a dangerous spot, then the mage should, again, take care of it, because the only thing that's lost is MP. If not, take care of it yourself with items.
1. The mage is not putting themselves at risk for your benefit. If there's a magic-aggro nearby (which *will* aggro the casting) or a sight-aggro nearby (which *may* aggro the mage when their invis drops upon casting), the mage should not risk (or guarantee) death to save you gil.
2. You are exercising common sense. Don't wait for your sneak in the middle of a pile of Robber Crabs, for example. And if you expect a mage to babysit you with sneak/invis, it's pretty damn stupid to run way off ahead, rather than sticking close to the mage.
3. You understand how sneak/invis *works*. It gives warning messages before it conks out. Take this time to find a safe spot to recast (or be recasted on), and if you're having a mage cast on you, let them know *at the first warning*. The mage does not get the warning messages except for *their own* sneak/invis. Demonstrate that your brain has cognitive and communicative functions, and *tell them*.
Also, the old sneak/invis effect needs to be gone before a new one can be put in place. Whether you're putting the effect on yourself or on someone else, know how to cancel your effects. There's also the recast on Sneak/Invis to consider. If a mage has to Invis you, they then have to stand around at risk of aggro for about 10 seconds before they can Invis themselves back to safety.
Side note, which far too people are unaware of:
Since casting invis, using tonko, using a prism powder ... all of these actions will *themselves* cancel invis "by doing something", you don't need to manually cancel. The act of recasting *on yourself* will cancel invis just before the new one lands.
Because of this, there is no excuse whatsoever for getting sight-aggro, unless you have to drop invis for another reason - most commonly replacing *sneak*, when you have to dodge both sound and sight aggros. You can recast invis on yourself right in front of a sight-aggro enemy, and it will never ever see you. (So long as the invis drops due to the casting, and not due to wearing off with time.)
This does not apply to having someone else invis you - because although an invis drops, namely the other person's, it's not the same one as is being replaced, namely yours. And it doesn't apply to sneak at all, because none of these actions automatically cancel sneak.
Other notes/advice:
Sneak and Invis will aggro magic-aggros such as elementals or arcana. Tonko will not. Items will not. In places such as Ro'Maeve or Ru'Avitau, even mages need to use items, even for themselves. And thus they certainly can't use spells on other people.
*Everyone*, mage or not, should carry a full stack of oils and a full stack of powders at all times. (I can only think of one situation where you might want more than one stack on you, and that's going through Ifrit's Cauldron to Yuhtunga for ZM5. And then it's only because you'd be sitting around waiting for flame spouts.)
Keep another full/partial stack in your mog safe. When you get back to town after using a few from your inventory-stack, refill your inventory-stack to full with the ones in your mog safe. When your mog safe runs out, buy a new stack and put it in there.
On any given outing, you will likely use anywhere from 0 to - in a *very* extreme situation - maybe half a dozen of these. Usually 0, sometimes 1-2 on average however. Rarely is it more. It takes a long time to go through a stack, so even though the stack *is* over 10K, it's not like you'll be burning through a stack of items every time you go somewhere.
Even if you do, just suck it up and figure it into mandatory expenses like food and equipment, don't treat it as something optional which you can't be bothered to buy (or bring).
-----------------------------------------------
And Cythe ... if-clause number 1 above applies even if the mage would be putting themselves at risk for the benefit of a tank who can protect them. Because who's to say that mage + tank can duo whatever enemy (or perhaps plural enemies) happen to aggro them? It's very possible that all you'll accomplish is get *both of you* killed, if you tried a stunt like that. (Depends on the enemy that aggros and how strong it is, of course.)
The most you can reliably say is "mage + tank can survive for a minute or two until the rest of the party gets there", and you can't necessarily assume that the rest of the party is a. close enough, b. able to find you, or c. able to get there without aggro *themselves*. So you can hardly depend on that eventuality either.
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For anyone who (understandably) can't be bothered to read my whole long spiel, my post summarizes as such:
Everyone, mage or not, should carry Sneak Oils and Prism Powders (Shinobi-tabi instead of Prism Powders for the NINs or /NINs - Tonko does not trigger magic-aggro so it's just as safe as a Prism Powder). Everyone should be able to be self-sufficient for their stealth if the situation calls for it.
If it's *reasonable* for a mage to sneak other people (such as at a zone line, or if it's a really safe spot), then yes, the mage should sneak other people. Better to spend MP than money.
If it's *risky*, then people should take care of themselves.
And finally, people should bloody well know how sneak/invis works, what with the three warnings you get and how you can't get a new one until the old one's gone. ><
Everyone, mage or not, should carry Sneak Oils and Prism Powders (Shinobi-tabi instead of Prism Powders for the NINs or /NINs - Tonko does not trigger magic-aggro so it's just as safe as a Prism Powder). Everyone should be able to be self-sufficient for their stealth if the situation calls for it.
If it's *reasonable* for a mage to sneak other people (such as at a zone line, or if it's a really safe spot), then yes, the mage should sneak other people. Better to spend MP than money.
If it's *risky*, then people should take care of themselves.
And finally, people should bloody well know how sneak/invis works, what with the three warnings you get and how you can't get a new one until the old one's gone. ><
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ThatGuyYouKnow said:
I'll sneak/invis everyone at the start, but after that it's their own responsibility. I hate having to go back and recast on someone in the middle of a crowd of aggro mobs and then having to use my own powder/oil to sneak/invis myself because waiting for my recast timers to cooldown might result in me dying.
If you feel that melee gets the shaft on this, then maybe you should just play a mage instead so you don't have to bitch about it.
I *always* carry powder/oil regardless of whether or not I'm playing melee or mage job. When I play melee job, I always use my items instead of waiting on the mages to cast on everyone. Don't you dare say that mages don't know how you feel. I know what it's like to be the mage and I will gladly use my powder/oil to get to the exp spot regardless of which job I'm playing.
Interesting... Reading all this fun stuff...
I have to ask one question before I mae a post here...
Is it just me... or the second an XP PT gets to an aggro heavy zone where all the melee's stand in a line waiting to get their non-aggro'ing buffs... does this remind you going to a water park and you're at the top of a waterslide and you sit there and stare at the life guard waiting for him/her to give you that hand to wave ya down the slide? For some reason I always think that...
As for the topic of this thread I just have to say this. As THF/NIN I'm always caring shinobi tabi to cast Tonko: Ni on myself.
One... It comes in stacks of 99.
Two... It casts faster than Invisibility.
Three... It lasts a hell of a lot longer.
As for oils... I have a stack or two of those on me at all times as well.
Deoderizer... Umm... yeah right... sorry to all you mobs that track by scent but aggro by something else, but if you've already aggro'd me... I think one of us is going to die... (example: damn orcs)
I just have this to say for the post:
Thank you to all the mages who cast an initial sneak/invis buff before heading into that particular aggro'ing zone. But thank you, I'll take care of myself. When I level WHM and have casted a buff such as sneak or invis on someone, the second I see the nice little message that says that buff just wore off so and so, my first thought is...
Craaaaapppp.... where are they and do they have the necessary supplies to keep themself safe.
So... as to make my PT mages not worry about me at all, I use my powders and oils right from the get go so they don't see my buff disappear and them wondering what I wonder.
Story:
Helping out people do ZM5 in Cape Terrigan someone in alliance said wait by the cave exit.
Myimyi thought: Pssht to that...
/item "Silent Oil" <me>
/nin "Tonko: Ni" <me>
Off I go. At the Cermet Headstone staring at the Gob, I'm thinking Solo the EM!! So I start fighting...
Someone in my PT notices that I got hit once...
PT member: Umm... where's Myihta????!!!
Other Alliance member: LoL She's already there!
Random Alliance member: I need invis!!
Another Random Alliance member: I need sneak!!
Look at map... for every melee stranded on the map I recheck map markers to see where the nearest mage is...
I shake my head at the screen as I wonder how you guys put up with it for so long.
Thank you guys for the wonderful job that you guys do and sorry for all the crap them melees put you through. Just have hope and be happy to know that some of us know what you go through!
I have to ask one question before I mae a post here...
Is it just me... or the second an XP PT gets to an aggro heavy zone where all the melee's stand in a line waiting to get their non-aggro'ing buffs... does this remind you going to a water park and you're at the top of a waterslide and you sit there and stare at the life guard waiting for him/her to give you that hand to wave ya down the slide? For some reason I always think that...
As for the topic of this thread I just have to say this. As THF/NIN I'm always caring shinobi tabi to cast Tonko: Ni on myself.
One... It comes in stacks of 99.
Two... It casts faster than Invisibility.
Three... It lasts a hell of a lot longer.
As for oils... I have a stack or two of those on me at all times as well.
Deoderizer... Umm... yeah right... sorry to all you mobs that track by scent but aggro by something else, but if you've already aggro'd me... I think one of us is going to die... (example: damn orcs)
I just have this to say for the post:
Thank you to all the mages who cast an initial sneak/invis buff before heading into that particular aggro'ing zone. But thank you, I'll take care of myself. When I level WHM and have casted a buff such as sneak or invis on someone, the second I see the nice little message that says that buff just wore off so and so, my first thought is...
Craaaaapppp.... where are they and do they have the necessary supplies to keep themself safe.
So... as to make my PT mages not worry about me at all, I use my powders and oils right from the get go so they don't see my buff disappear and them wondering what I wonder.
Story:
Helping out people do ZM5 in Cape Terrigan someone in alliance said wait by the cave exit.
Myimyi thought: Pssht to that...
/item "Silent Oil" <me>
/nin "Tonko: Ni" <me>
Off I go. At the Cermet Headstone staring at the Gob, I'm thinking Solo the EM!! So I start fighting...
Someone in my PT notices that I got hit once...
PT member: Umm... where's Myihta????!!!
Other Alliance member: LoL She's already there!
Random Alliance member: I need invis!!
Another Random Alliance member: I need sneak!!
Look at map... for every melee stranded on the map I recheck map markers to see where the nearest mage is...
I shake my head at the screen as I wonder how you guys put up with it for so long.
Thank you guys for the wonderful job that you guys do and sorry for all the crap them melees put you through. Just have hope and be happy to know that some of us know what you go through!
Edit: EP not EM
^^(Big huge sweat drop)
^^(Big huge sweat drop)
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<3 Myihta
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Kat said:<3 Myihta
I'll second that
You just type /ma for Ninjutsu, I never heard of a /nin function.
vang said:I have never seen a PLD with sneaks or invis, then again I never pegged PLD to be a job played by the most intelligent, coordinated people on the server.
But really, from my experience, most melee are lazy and selfish and way to cocky for how replaceable they are. Deny it all you want, call me a dick all you want, just stating my opinion. I will say one thing and believe me Im not kissing up, I have yet to party with a QCDN melee who has let me down.
That is quite ignorant. To say that most PLDs are stupid and unprepared is true, but then again, that is true for every job in the game. I am a PLD, and I always have at least 12 Silent Oils and Prism Powders on hand. When entering a zone, I will request S+I from a mage, but if it begins to wear in a dangerous area, I'll reapply myself. There is no sense in endangering the party because you were too cheap to buy powder and oil.
Please refrain from touting yourself as one of the only people who know how to play this game; it causes people to dislike and disrespect you.
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Firestreak said:
You can type either /so or /ma for BRD songs. Works just the same either way. I assume the same is true for ninjutsu.
Yes, both /ma and /nin will work for Ninjutsu (/nin didn't work at first but they patched it in a few months ago I believe).
vang said:
^^
:?
First off, I always carry at least half a stack of Prisms and Silents when out and about. Its just sense. Theres too many times when you will be separated from your mages or maybe farming etc that there arent any mages, that the med will save you several hours worth of exp.
However I second the motion that mages are by no means angels in getting aggro. If I burn an oil and a powder in Terrigan to get to the cave, and the mage behinds me stops in a bad spot to recast his own sneak/invis, gets aggro and then i have to voke it off him... That just cost me a healthy bit of money. Also in zones where there is rampant magic aggro the mage never seems to have a pot handy. Even after I -repeatedly- state all mages need pots before leaving Jeuno. Did they think I was joking? Worst example I remember is doing Optical hat runs and the giant clusterf*ck that is (uhhh crap i cant remember the name now its been a while...) That underground zone by Temple of Uggalipih... GAH its late and my head hurts anyways, I remember burning a stack and a half of powders and oils because every f*cking time i recast on myself someone would get aggro and the whole alliance had to uncloak, kill it, and recloak. I was slamming my desk IRL. And you know who kept getting aggro? The RDM,s the BLMs, the classes who fricking HAD sneak/invis but after repeated warnings didnt bother to buy pots. RAWR.
My personal opinion:
Cast spell at the zoneline. If safe to do so, (Person stops in safe place like the tunnel before the Goobues in Boya) recast. If not safe to do so especially in sight aggro places, (Oztroja, Onozo), let him fend for himself. Raising an idiot causes more downtime than reapplying buffs, however 2 bodies take longer to raise than one. It's the mage's call but please dont be stingy with a spell you bought for 500gill. It costs the melee double that each time they apply it to themselves. Persons who run off and get lost and die somewhere stupid have no sympathy in my book. If your new to an area hug someone's ass.
And just as a side note, it is perfectly 100% doable to walk from CN zone to the "Secret room" with no sneak or invis. I've been offline for months and I can still do that. If your careful and watch yoru aggro radius and learn how the mobs aggro you will be fine. Or maybe I just have Mad Skillz.
Also a side note, once i get sneaked I make a mad dash for camp. I'm set and ready and the only time i stop is when its safe to stop. It's possible with luck and speed to cover Terrigan in one buff. If you get a wearing message stop behind the one boulder halfway. Boyadah is the only place i can think of off the top of my head thats too big for one application.
First off, I always carry at least half a stack of Prisms and Silents when out and about. Its just sense. Theres too many times when you will be separated from your mages or maybe farming etc that there arent any mages, that the med will save you several hours worth of exp.
However I second the motion that mages are by no means angels in getting aggro. If I burn an oil and a powder in Terrigan to get to the cave, and the mage behinds me stops in a bad spot to recast his own sneak/invis, gets aggro and then i have to voke it off him... That just cost me a healthy bit of money. Also in zones where there is rampant magic aggro the mage never seems to have a pot handy. Even after I -repeatedly- state all mages need pots before leaving Jeuno. Did they think I was joking? Worst example I remember is doing Optical hat runs and the giant clusterf*ck that is (uhhh crap i cant remember the name now its been a while...) That underground zone by Temple of Uggalipih... GAH its late and my head hurts anyways, I remember burning a stack and a half of powders and oils because every f*cking time i recast on myself someone would get aggro and the whole alliance had to uncloak, kill it, and recloak. I was slamming my desk IRL. And you know who kept getting aggro? The RDM,s the BLMs, the classes who fricking HAD sneak/invis but after repeated warnings didnt bother to buy pots. RAWR.
My personal opinion:
Cast spell at the zoneline. If safe to do so, (Person stops in safe place like the tunnel before the Goobues in Boya) recast. If not safe to do so especially in sight aggro places, (Oztroja, Onozo), let him fend for himself. Raising an idiot causes more downtime than reapplying buffs, however 2 bodies take longer to raise than one. It's the mage's call but please dont be stingy with a spell you bought for 500gill. It costs the melee double that each time they apply it to themselves. Persons who run off and get lost and die somewhere stupid have no sympathy in my book. If your new to an area hug someone's ass.
And just as a side note, it is perfectly 100% doable to walk from CN zone to the "Secret room" with no sneak or invis. I've been offline for months and I can still do that. If your careful and watch yoru aggro radius and learn how the mobs aggro you will be fine. Or maybe I just have Mad Skillz.
Also a side note, once i get sneaked I make a mad dash for camp. I'm set and ready and the only time i stop is when its safe to stop. It's possible with luck and speed to cover Terrigan in one buff. If you get a wearing message stop behind the one boulder halfway. Boyadah is the only place i can think of off the top of my head thats too big for one application.
Well, this certainly went on longer then I'd expected it to. To add some details:
Everyone else was at camp. It was only the one person who couldn't make it for some odd reason.
They stopped in a shallow alcovish area practically surrounded by beetles. It's amazing they didn't get aggro then.
I cast S+I on the person, making sure to be as out of the way as possible, then threw up S+I myself. Unfortunately, just before invis could be cast, a beetle smacked me. I attempted to sleep and escape, but there was already a link, so I just prepared to die. It might not have been all that bad--but the (I believe it was a DRK/WAR) VOKED the beetle. I can only assume the PT went on to die because of his stupidity, as I saw him running back to camp with the beetles tailing.
Now, I have no problem with Sneaking and Invising when it's safe. Hell, it's my duty even as a BLM. Unfortunately, I've a bit too much WHM in me, so I often am the first to run out and save a person. See what it gets me? ¬_¬
Everyone else was at camp. It was only the one person who couldn't make it for some odd reason.
They stopped in a shallow alcovish area practically surrounded by beetles. It's amazing they didn't get aggro then.
I cast S+I on the person, making sure to be as out of the way as possible, then threw up S+I myself. Unfortunately, just before invis could be cast, a beetle smacked me. I attempted to sleep and escape, but there was already a link, so I just prepared to die. It might not have been all that bad--but the (I believe it was a DRK/WAR) VOKED the beetle. I can only assume the PT went on to die because of his stupidity, as I saw him running back to camp with the beetles tailing.
Now, I have no problem with Sneaking and Invising when it's safe. Hell, it's my duty even as a BLM. Unfortunately, I've a bit too much WHM in me, so I often am the first to run out and save a person. See what it gets me? ¬_¬
