One reported dead, several injured in Virginia Tech shootings

[pakomen]

I LOL at "faith in your police force"

Beats Japan's "after the fact" police force. If you think the US' police force are pussies or slow, you have no idea.

 

[Jereme]

Everytime a gun is used someone uses that incident to further gun control. Wow you are some genius on figuring out that someone would bring up gun control in America. Really took some deep thought to figure it out that gun control would be brought up huh?

It isn't about fear and paranoia. It is about the right keep and bare arms. Europe hates America anyway.

I bet anytime someone critizes Canada's health care system which is pretty shitty you get all defensive decidence.

Noone is coming up with anything plausible to combat incidents like this? So stricter gun control laws will combat this decidence? Is that the only thing that will combat it? If the kid wanted to get a gun he would have gotten his hands on a gun whether legally or illegally. Stricter laws wouldn't have prevented this.

 

[Halifirien]

There's not much point in bringing up gun control because that particular genie has been out of the United State's bottle a long time. Even if by some miracle you managed to amend the Constitution to outlaw guns -- which won't happen -- you'd never get 'em all. We've got some spectacular numbers when it comes to violence in this country, but the guns are not the cause.

Besides, I'm a big believer in the idea that an armed population keeps the government from going completely over the high side. It almost seems silly to say "We keep our guns to keep tyrants at bay" when we've had President Shit-head pissing on the Constitution for years with a big chunk of the United States eagerly lapping it up so he can keep us safe from "teh terror," but there you go.

The Virginia Tech thing is horrible, but three bombs went off in Iraq and took out 33 people today. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for the wall-to-wall news coverage and manufactured gravitas from Matt Lauer.

This kind of mass death isn't happening on a regular basis. Give us a different loner going apeshit and taking out a mall every day or two and then you might have some serious talk about gun control... or more likely a whole lot more people packing iron.

 

[Reauland]

I'm going to say this once and only once.

The reason that we Americans get so hot under the collar over issues like this is because we believe that Europe and much of the rest of the First World places far too much faith in their respective systems of government, seemingly turning a blind eye to the fact that should things ever take a wrong turn, your government can become your worst enemy.

Americans look at government as a necessary evil, one with which we co-exist under a sort of wary cease-fire, whereas other countries seem to view it as being a close relation to "divine rule," an entity that can always be counted on to look after the needs and safety of its citizenry without anyone giving it a second thought.

I'd just like to remind you, Germany was a young (albeit catastrophically crippled) republic prior to the rise of the Third Reich, and after they came to power, among the first things the Nazis did before they started packing people aboard those dark trains to nowhere was to make it so that only Nazis and Nazi sympathizers could own firearms (see The 1938 Law).

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so."

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

 

[Mattaru]

How bout instead of buying guns to protect yourself that you have faith in your police force. The university security and private police forces on US campuses amaze me compared to what Canadian campuses settle for. The largest university in BC (UBC @ 30,000 students) only have something called "Campus Cowboys" which I guess are like rent-a-cops?

You people need to stop living in fear and paranoia and just let law enforcement do its job and keep bugging your government to improve conditions in which you live. And if you say that you don't live in fear or paranoia then I ask, how? Because most of you don't even know what its like to not live in fear or paranoia and therefore probably have no clue that it's how your probably living. And really this is not a diss against the people of america because it's not your own fault, the government at a federal and municipal level need to step it up.

And why is it that everytime someone critisizes the american government that you people get so defensive? Do you guys think that we are trying to say "Ha ha, you should of never seperated from Britian" or something? Grow up, everyone should be able to admit the problems of your own government. Not only that but everyone keeps defending gun laws saying that people should be able to own a gun, but no one is suggesting plausible ways to prevent these types of tradgedies in the future.

PS: BTW I just read today that much of Europe have publically blamed gun-control in the US for this, and that everytime something on this scale happens that it's scarring the interpretation of the "American Dream". So yea, my OP still stands, and I guarantee there will be a re-visiting of stricter gun laws soon.

Summary: Generalization, genrealization, stipulation, soapboxing and self-righteousness.

It is seriously amazing how some of the world views alot of Americans and tends to generalize us. I remember going over to Germany and staying with a family where the son had a lot of anti-american posters etc. but had never once actually met an American and conversed for any period of time.

I do not go around assuming that all Europeans are absurdly left-wing. And I do not go around assuming all Canadians are backward, hockey playing socialists.

You may say, I'm not poking fun at you, you even do say that but its a blatant contradiction. In one paragraph you say it isn't entirely our faults and you are not blaming us, and then the next you say why do "you people" get so defensive; and THEN say we need to be bugging the government to make these changes therefore directly linking ourselves with the culpability of our government. Seriously, get what you are trying to say straight.

Referring to the comment about not saying plausible things to prevent these things. Read, seriously. First off I already said that looking at ways to LOGISTICALLY prevent a lone crazed gunman from commiting this act is near impossible due to the fact people want to live in an open society and infringing on that to an extreme degree in order to monitor everyone would be the only way to even come close to completely preventing it. We reject that idea which itself shows that we do not want to live in a world of fear that you pruport only occurs here in the US with "people like us". Which is why I suggest on an individual level you have to strive to provide healthy environments for children and trying to legislate anything like that is just ridiculous other than obvious things like stopping child abuse.
Secondly, gun control isn't a plausible solution in these types of cases because handguns can be obtained illegaly, through backdoors and black markets anywhere in the world and if someone is hell-bent on doing this they will. So why are you asking us to create a plausible solution when you can't offer one yourself.

Is Europe, is the U.S., is anyone infallible. Just because Europe points its finger into absurdity and picks "gun-control" does not make it so.

 

[alanon]

Don't forget oklahoma city! We should have stricter control on Uhauls and fertilizer!!!

 

[RoM]

The USA is considerably more relaxed with gun control laws. You can't even legally shoot people here unless they attack you first.

The first sentence i can't speak to, i'm a knife person. Never attempted to go get a gun, never had the inclination. I'm much less inclined now that i'm a father.

On the second sentence, and someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think it's legal to shoot anyone in the US unless they attack you first either and at that your life has to be demonstratably in danger for you not to at least catch an agg assault charge or better. Unless, maybe if it's a home invasion in which case ... shoulda knocked i s'pose.

 

[RoM]

How bout instead of buying guns to protect yourself that you have faith in your police force. The university security and private police forces on US campuses amaze me compared to what Canadian campuses settle for. The largest university in BC (UBC @ 30,000 students) only have something called "Campus Cowboys" which I guess are like rent-a-cops?

You people need to stop living in fear and paranoia and just let law enforcement do its job and keep bugging your government to improve conditions in which you live. And if you say that you don't live in fear or paranoia then I ask, how? Because most of you don't even know what its like to not live in fear or paranoia and therefore probably have no clue that it's how your probably living. And really this is not a diss against the people of america because it's not your own fault, the government at a federal and municipal level need to step it up.

And why is it that everytime someone critisizes the american government that you people get so defensive? Do you guys think that we are trying to say "Ha ha, you should of never seperated from Britian" or something? Grow up, everyone should be able to admit the problems of your own government. Not only that but everyone keeps defending gun laws saying that people should be able to own a gun, but no one is suggesting plausible ways to prevent these types of tradgedies in the future.

PS: BTW I just read today that much of Europe have publically blamed gun-control in the US for this, and that everytime something on this scale happens that it's scarring the interpretation of the "American Dream". So yea, my OP still stands, and I guarantee there will be a re-visiting of stricter gun laws soon.

How bout you join us in reality where people are foulable and *our* government could give a shit less. How bout you come down here and live for a couple years and then try preaching to US citizens how we should bother our government about how we live. It's not as if it's been a rousing fucking success.

US: Shit sucks, do something.

Bush Government: Yea.... No. Maybe the next jerkoff you elect (lol) might work that out.

US: That's kinda illegal and counter to your title isn't it?

Bush Government: What are you going to do about it?

US: Sit and spin we s'pose, Mr. President and elected officials. Thank you for your time.

You seem to be under the impression we still have a textbook democracy in place in this country. That's not the case. The citizens do _not_, under any circumstances, have a say in how the country runs or what laws are put in to practice or reformed. Not without thousands upon thousands of dollars, media exposure, and some tragedy to reference that the average population forgets within 5 days.

Fear and paranoia is all we've known (and been the MAJOR market force) since WWII. What you say sounds great on paper but it doesn't work. Not anymore. 50 years ago i'd be marching the streets preaching the same shit. These days that gets you an 8x8 room to think about exactly how important your principles are.

Your average Joe USA is just glad to have a job, a roof over his head, food in his mouth, and what passes for an exceptional education for him and his family. The rest is just bullshit on the news for people who get paid more than we do to argue about.

PS: God knows we were just waiting on word from Europe about what caused this. Everyone hang your head in shame. Europe blames our gun control laws. Meanwhile the root causes; medical/psychological care or lack thereof, education, social and academic stress, and simple bad luck go unmentioned. Why? There's no sensationalism in it.

Your OP only stands because you're on the outside looking in.

 

[Sabia]

I don't know one Canadian that has faith in our government - in fact we had so little faith in our government that we tossed his ass recently and are constantly butting heads.

I know people like gangs, terrorists, drug dealers are always going to have access to illegal guns, but we're talking about school shootings here. Your average 13-17 year old "I don't know how this happened, he was such a nice kid" isn't going to have any idea on how to obtain illegal guns. Making semi-automatic weapons harder to obtain isn't going to stop crime but it's going to make it harder for spur of the moment violence to be so devastating and effective. Fact is yes if someone wants to come to school with a gun it's going to happen but it should be harder for someone to come to school with a duffle bag full of semi automatic weapons and 16 clips of fast, easy to load ammo.

I'm not going to say Canada is the best place and everyone should be like us because we have our share of problems. However, I don't know one person who actually knows how to fire a gun which makes me feel safer. If you handed me a gun I wouldn't know how to reload it after the clip was empty. It's not just stricter gun control that I think would help the united states avoid such devastating events like VT, but a shift of focus from guns to other things. Guns are far too big of a part of American culture, whether its supporting or fighting gun control it's always at the forefront of American culture.

You seriously think you should have a right to bear arms because one day you 'might' have to rise up and storm the white house guns a' blazing and shoot your government officials, I'm going to have to laugh. I'd think if you had such a serious issue with your government you'd settle it via talks and political action rather than ammunition.

Your government isn't scared of you because you have guns.

PS: I'm, and I'm sure everyone is aware that discussing gun control on a video game forum isn't going to have any effect on the laws of tomorrow, I'm not here to attack anyone - I just really enjoy intelligent conversation with equally intelligent people. So don't think I'm attacking you or your country, it's just that what the United States does everyday effects Canada everyday. Being attached to the united states is like sleeping with an elephant - every time you roll, we feel it, so I enjoy talking about it with Americans

 

[Reauland]

On the second sentence, and someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think it's legal to shoot anyone in the US unless they attack you first either and at that your life has to be demonstratably in danger for you not to at least catch an agg assault charge or better. Unless, maybe if it's a home invasion in which case ... shoulda knocked i s'pose.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, a citizen of Texas is within their rights to shoot someone knowingly (as in, it's posted and they came on in anyway)trespassing on their property, extenuating circumstances or not.

This, however, is very much the exception that proves the rule, and . . . well . . . it's Texas

 

[Jereme]

You make semi-automatic seem so much worse then it is. All semi-automatic means is you don't have to cock the gun after every round. You still have to pull the trigger for every round to come out. Hand guns are all very easy to unload and reload. 5 secs with a gun and you could see for yourself how easy a 2 year old could unload an reload a hand gun. You would also be surprised at how easy that 13-17 year old who you think would have no idea how to obtain a gun could get access to one.

Do I think we Americans will storm and shoot our government officials? Never most likely. It actually does sound funny when you say it. And yes most change in government and laws is done with talking or written letters to our government officials. Would they listen as closely if there wasn't some fear of a storming on Washington? Who knows. The founders wanted government to have that fear though.

 

[Sneakypants]

Deci...Defensive?

Not quite. You're running your mouth and people called you on it.
Nothing more to it.


Pull your head out of your ass and you might find people respond to you differently.

 

[RoM]

I know people like gangs, terrorists, drug dealers are always going to have access to illegal guns, but we're talking about school shootings here. Your average 13-17 year old "I don't know how this happened, he was such a nice kid" isn't going to have any idea on how to obtain illegal guns.

Yea... No. We could go back to columbine and see that's blatantly untrue.

Making semi-automatic weapons harder to obtain isn't going to stop crime but it's going to make it harder for spur of the moment violence to be so devastating and effective.

Until cops start selling them to people from evidence lockers, like the story that just ran in knoxville a week ago. 300 semi-auto's out the door because some schlep at the PD needed to make ends meet.

Fact is yes if someone wants to come to school with a gun it's going to happen but it should be harder for someone to come to school with a duffle bag full of semi automatic weapons and 16 clips of fast, easy to load ammo.

There's no difference between the two situations you propose. One gun in a school is just as bad as a bag full. This guy only had two guns on him from the reports i've read. Kinda makes the whole paragraph moot when it's put in context.

I'm not going to say Canada is the best place and everyone should be like us because we have our share of problems. However, I don't know one person who actually knows how to fire a gun which makes me feel safer. If you handed me a gun I wouldn't know how to reload it after the clip was empty. It's not just stricter gun control that I think would help the united states avoid such devastating events like VT, but a shift of focus from guns to other things. Guns are far too big of a part of American culture, whether its supporting or fighting gun control it's always at the forefront of American culture.

If you consider the total history of the US it's really not that hard to understand why. The truth of the matter is that there needs to be better screening on a psychological basis. Even at that you're not going to catch every nutball out there. Sometimes people spontaneously snap. Stress is at an all time high for the entire race as the push to modernize moves faster and faster. People can't keep up psychologically, physically, financially, etc. This sort of thing is the result.

You seriously think you should have a right to bear arms because one day you 'might' have to rise up and storm the white house guns a' blazing and shoot your government officials, I'm going to have to laugh. I'd think if you had such a serious issue with your government you'd settle it via talks and political action rather than ammunition.

Again. Just... Don't.

You have no idea what you're on about. You're confusing a provision, a CYA clause, in the constitution as the root of all evil when it comes to having a handgun. At the time the document was written it was very realistic to assume the government could become onmipresent and a shadow of the government we had seperated ourselves from. For this reason alone it was provided in the constitution that, should the need arise, we were legally allowed to bear arms and form militias not only to overthrow the government but, at the time, to protect ourselves from the natives and other dangers of the period.

You'd think we'd settle it with talks but talking goes nowhere in America unless you have a platform and huge backing.

Your government isn't scared of you because you have guns.

Not now. Bet your ass the first hundred years or so that was a different story. You know, back when the people of the country actually elected officials, voted on issues, and had their concerns addressed on a federal AND local level instead of getting lost in paperwork. Back when you didn't so much have to write your congressman so much as show up on his doorstep.

The constitution is outdated, no one's going to argue that point at all. But the simple fact of the matter is it is essentially a timeless document to a rational mind. The problem is that rational minds haven't had the reigns of the government for at least half a century now.

 

[decidence]

Everytime I bring up gun control someone says that if people want to find a gun illegally then they will.

Well guess what, most murders are not 1st degree. For those that don't know what 1st degree murder is, it means that it has to be pre-mediated, which means in a country that has gun control that the person would have to go out and find a gun illegally and pre-meditate his actions.

Most people commit gun crimes out of convienence, which means something posesses them to kill and they have a weapon already laying around to do it. Chances are someone who is suicidal, or is in a situation where he/she feels they need to take their problems out on society will not go through the trouble of finding an illegal weapon, or will not be talked out of it or caught by the time he/she obtains one.

Not only that but do you really think that this South Korean kid which wasn't exactly a gangster or something would have the connections already made with the underground market to obtain such an illegal weapon? You think Canada doesn't have such markets? We do, and so would the US if they had stricter gun laws, but I don't know a single person with connections that go in that direction.

Strict gun posession laws and voluntary or even involuntary disarment of public assault weapons and handguns is the first step to a less violent society , if you can't see that or don't want that then I guess you can fall back on the many excuses that people like Jack Thompson fall upon.

Blame Video Games
Blame Parents
Blame Rap Videos
Blame Rock and Roll.... yadda yadda.

By the way, I don't care if you find faults in anything in Canada, the thing I care most about is a safe environment and one in which I'm not worried about getting shot or finding myself in a dangerous situation like that. One in which I can walk home alone at 3am and not be looking down each back alley. I don't even use my health care system, I would rather be privatized at this stage in my life, but maybe later on when my immune system isn't perfect I will come to like how Canada does that too.

 

[Firestreak]

The problem with your premeditation argument is that 4 in 5 gun murders are with illegal guns.

 

[decidence]

4-5 1st Degree murders?

I doubt most psycho school shooters obtained there guns illegally. I think that statistic is heavily weighted by organized crime murders. 2nd or 3rd degree murders which are the majority of non-organized crime gun deaths are not from ilegally obtained weapons.

Organized crime is a whole seperate argument from this one imo, baby steps are necessary in an issue like this. First you must deal with the general public having handguns and assault rifles. Then you start protecting them by going after the organized crime syndicates.

 

[RoM]

Everytime I bring up gun control someone says that if people want to find a gun illegally then they will.

Because it's a true statement. Guess what if they don't find one and still want to hurt someone they'll probably go pick up a big rock too, get testy about that a little...

Interesting read: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

Shoots your posts to shit, sry.

Well guess what, most murders are not 1st degree. For those that don't know what 1st degree murder is, it means that it has to be pre-mediated, which means in a country that has gun control that the person would have to go out and find a gun illegally and pre-meditate his actions.

Most people commit gun crimes out of convienence, which means something posesses them to kill and they have a weapon already laying around to do it.

Completely obvious statement. However, your universe is entirely too simple. Case in point; I break in to your house, you have a gun legally, i find it and shoot you because you bother me while i jack your converse. This actually happens quite a bit. It's not quite so clear cut.

Chances are someone who is suicidal, or is in a situation where he/she feels they need to take their problems out on society will not go through the trouble of finding an illegal weapon, or will not be talked out of it or caught by the time he/she obtains one.

Like this kid, columbine, the kid up the road in cumberland who shot a couple guys and students about a year back, etc etc etc. You're out in the ether.

Not only that but do you really think that this South Korean kid which wasn't exactly a gangster or something would have the connections already made with the underground market to obtain such an illegal weapon?

You think there's an 'underground' where you have to make 'connections' to get a gun. That's cute.

Turn off the TV.

You think Canada doesn't have such markets? We do, and so would the US if they had stricter gun laws, but I don't know a single person with connections that go in that direction.

Dude, what you're speaking of is a minute fraction of illegal weapon purchases it's an even less prevelant means of posession. 9/10 a friend has a friend or a family member who they steal/buy the gun from without the proper paperwork. It's not as if all of these crimes required a shady meeting with a guy in a do-rag in some dark alley.

Strict gun posession laws and voluntary or even involuntary disarment of public assault weapons and handguns is the first step to a less violent society , if you can't see that or don't want that then I guess you can fall back on the many excuses that people like Jack Thompson fall upon.

Yea, meanwhile the war on drugs is going smashingly with the same mindset.

You can preach till you're blue in the face about how gun law is going to help solve the problem but the simple fact of the matter is you're entirely, incontrivertably, and totally wrong. The only way to remove this sort of thing from the realm of reality is to get rid of guns altogether or somehow erase their introduction to this society.

The damage is done, it's going to increase exponentially. Laws or not you can't change it or stop it.

Blame Video Games
Blame Parents
Blame Rap Videos
Blame Rock and Roll....

You forgot one

Blame gun control laws.

yadda yadda.

 

[Sabia]

Yea... No. We could go back to columbine and see that's blatantly untrue.

It is true, American's have easier access to guns both legal and illegal in comparison to other G5 nations.

There's no difference between the two situations you propose. One gun in a school is just as bad as a bag full. This guy only had two guns on him from the reports i've read. Kinda makes the whole paragraph moot when it's put in context.

Hence why I also brought up easy access to ammunition/guns. When someone is buying 400 rounds of ammo for a gun it's time to question whats going on. And no, one gun is a lot better than a duffle bag as far as efficiency goes.

If you consider the total history of the US it's really not that hard to understand why. The truth of the matter is that there needs to be better screening on a psychological basis. Even at that you're not going to catch every nutball out there. Sometimes people spontaneously snap. Stress is at an all time high for the entire race as the push to modernize moves faster and faster. People can't keep up psychologically, physically, financially, etc. This sort of thing is the result.

You're essentially arguing for stricter gun control in this paragraph.

Again. Just... Don't.

You have no idea what you're on about. You're confusing a provision, a CYA clause, in the constitution as the root of all evil when it comes to having a handgun. At the time the document was written it was very realistic to assume the government could become onmipresent and a shadow of the government we had seperated ourselves from. For this reason alone it was provided in the constitution that, should the need arise, we were legally allowed to bear arms and form militias not only to overthrow the government but, at the time, to protect ourselves from the natives and other dangers of the period.

I wasn't countering your argument in my paragraph, I was countering previous statements brought up in this thread which I thought were ridiculous.

You'd think we'd settle it with talks but talking goes nowhere in America unless you have a platform and huge backing.

Democracy is a government where the public elects it's officials, I know because we're also democratic country and effectively tossed John Chretien without a show of arms

Not now. Bet your ass the first hundred years or so that was a different story. You know, back when the people of the country actually elected officials, voted on issues, and had their concerns addressed on a federal AND local level instead of getting lost in paperwork. Back when you didn't so much have to write your congressman so much as show up on his doorstep.

Uhm....kinda a moot point since this isn't the first hundred years.

The constitution is outdated, no one's going to argue that point at all. But the simple fact of the matter is it is essentially a timeless document to a rational mind. The problem is that rational minds haven't had the reigns of the government for at least half a century now.

Did you know that it used to be law that if a peasant owned a greyhound they would be put to death? Do you know what england did? They changed it because it was out of date. No laws are timeless because society changes.

 

[RoM]

4-5 1st Degree murders?

I doubt most psycho school shooters obtained there guns illegally. I think that statistic is heavily weighted by organized crime murders. 2nd or 3rd degree murders which are the majority of non-organized crime gun deaths are not from ilegally obtained weapons.

Organized crime is a whole seperate argument from this one imo, baby steps are necessary in an issue like this. First you must deal with the general public having handguns and assault rifles. Then you start protecting them by going after the organized crime syndicates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Canada

tee hee

All that aside. Your first paragraph shows how little you've brushed up on high profile school shootings and gun crimes in general in this country.

The second paragraph i can't really find anything to take issue with ><

 

[Jereme]

We are a constitutional republic not a democracy. A democracy is like 2 wolves and one sheep voting on whats for dinner. We have electors to elect our representatives. The founding fathers were wise beyond there years.