only the poor bitch about prices

[Shaunessy]

Very true Sculli, just like my corp in Eve we have mining days and a very strict buisness plan that nets us asslodes of ISK <Eve currency> Most people just don't have the patience I think to sit though the tedious task of farming. But it's not that hard. I can net 60-100k an hour on FFXI while playing another game at the same time, and if I pushed myself to actually fishing again I'm sure that profit would double. But I have most of the gear I want so I don't really care too much.

 

[Ranpha]

Whatever happened to running around naked in game while sending your best buddies stacks of insect wings? D: Does not require any game skills or gil...

BTW Insect wings are good on chicken.

 

[Phraust]

It is not so much the price of items people bitch about, and the poor being the ones bitching. It's the human aspect of this game, er.. I should say the dehumanizing aspect... It's just greatly disheartening when you are only half a mil away from something, when you see the item you have been after shoot up to double it's price. It's not unreasonable for somone to bitch a little, when they are the one working hard and doing the things that maybe even you have done. But on the same scale, if you said you could make 500k before you hit 12, that's great, but what happens when the next day the item you wanted for 500k shoots up to 2 mil? or the value of the gil you have in liquid form suddenly devalues, when you thought you were hot shit making 500k, and the guy next to you does the same exact thing you did yesterday and makes 2 mil? and you gotta do it again.. after already working for it. Always having everything a step away from you, consistantly, and constantly.

One of the greatest flaws in this game was the crafting system in conjunction with the early release in Japan. When the Japanese where crafting, all thier items sold at a profit, people would actually use some of the geat that was crafted, and a lot of the coveted items weren't in existance at that time, thus there was a demand for crafted items. Crafting worked. You wanted a good set of gloves at 40? You had your buddy make a pair of Cuire Gloves... Who the fuck uses Cuire gloves now? And I don't think the crafter was making em for the 90% loss they are to make nowadays... Chances are they broke even or made a profit.

Yes, being wealthy could be easy, but you gotta get lucky not only in what you do, but who's there, and how long you got to cash in on that activity. The arguments for gil sellers are frequent, but there is one point that is never discussed, presistance. There use to be a time, when you could go farm tree cuttings, and generate yourself some wealth. Then the gil sellers came... In masses... and it wasn't the old "Oh they're just competiton, just like anyone else" no... There's one thing about the game and finding "Competition" and being able to avoid it, and find alternatives. Search castle O, and search it every minute for a week straight, you will se the same Gil sellers there 24/7. You decide to go there and deal with the "Competiton" and suddenly that gil seller is 5, then 10. You go off to get tree cuttings, and suddenly there's 2 gil sellers at every spawn point... Later as you look for ways to help yourself, you find that gil sellers are actually following you, trying to find out where to go next after they choke you out of the 'usual' areas of farming... I got so sick of it I went to the Throne Room at the top of Castle Zvhal Baileys and stood in the center of the bridge... When I woke up the next morning there were 6 gil sellers standing around me as if they were casually waiting for a NM to spawn there.

And you really can't turn your head to the fact Gil buying exists and say: "...and please, don't mention gil buyers yet again, there are plenty of people in this and other MMOs who have shitloads of cash.."

Please....

If gil buying didn't exist, and if it didn't make such an impact, there wouldn't be so many god damn Gil Sellers on our fucking server. And yes... It's highly suspect that suddenly there's that dipshit that is always begging you for ideas on ways to make gil wearing 100k in gear suddenly leaving you alone after christmas wearing in upwards of 50mil in gear...

It's not unreasonable for the 'Poor' to bitch about things costing so much.
You need to seriously get a tiny bit of objectivity. This game isn't as easy to finance as you make it. It it really growing into a matter of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, or quitting.

It's an interesting comment Sculli, and you are correct that only the poor bitch about prices. But that is still a very White Haired Republicain outlook on the situation, to stare at it from the outside and lay judgement on a situation you have no more active participation with. In short. You're being kinda a hippocrite you're bitchign about people bitching.

 

[Peregrine]

The whole premise of MMOs is that not all players are equal. That is what keeps the bottom 90% playing, that they want to eventually become the top 10%. Years later the majority of the 90% realizes that they won't ever make it, and they quit the game.

Could not be more wrong. Don't impose your values on the general player base as if everyone plays for the same reason. Many have no intention of becoming elite and continue to play. Just because you never hung around the type of player who doesn't care about gods and gear and online accomplishment doesn't change the fact that they're there.

The whole premise of MMOs is that all players are equal. Don't tell them why they play the game. You can't speak for them and say they only continue because they haven't realized they'll fail to be elite yet. That's a disgusting outlook honestly. Typical QCDN mentality, but disgusting nonetheless.

People who whine about prices are, above all, naive. They want to be a part of a world that they can't afford. They want to be more elite than they really can be. They're caught up in a race that they aren't competitive in. Gil and assets are a function of how long you play. It has very little to do with how savvy you are at business. If FFXi is hard enough for you to convince yourself that it takes talent, you're probably failing RMT in Skokie, Illinois. Time=money in this game. That's all you need to win unless you're talking about absolute first class elite. To be absolute first class elite, you needed to be there first AND play the most.

How elitist you are depends on how much slack you're willing to give people who play beside you for not having the time to invest in ratracing. People who whine or people who brag or mock are simply naive--out of balance. One group wants to be more elite than they deserve. The other thinks they're more elite than they really are.

 

[Sculli]

The whole premise of MMOs is that all players are equal.

Not sure what to make of you of all people saying that.
Developers created MMOs in such a way that the premise is that all players are NOT equal. If they had in mind that all players would be equal, then there would be one set of end-game gear that all players could easily get unrelated to the players play-time and financial abilities. This is clearly not the case.

MMOs are meant to cater to two groups of people equally from a dev's perspective (which is different than the players perspective). The dev's cater to the hardcore gamers, who get all the uber gear and get to see high end zones. And the dev's and hardcore gamers cater to those who want to be hardcore, and try, and try, and try, and eventually either become hardcore, or quit after realizing that given their circumstances they will never ever be in the top 10% of the game.

I am not imposing anything, I am pointing out that the majority of players plays the game with the goal to better their character, be it to "be like the guy with all the cool gear", or be it to "get all the cool gear listed on allakhazam". Few people play the game just for fun and with disreard to equipment issues. Those people who manage to play the game just for fun are happier players, and things like rising prices have no impact on them.

I'd like to hear a factual argument that would support the notion that MMOs mean for all players to be equal.

 

[dedalius]

or the value of the gil you have in liquid form suddenly devalues

The value of all currency in liquid form devalues. Buy something worth 500k with that 500k and when prices raise you won't get screwed.

 

[Mistaya]

I'd like to hear a factual argument that would support the notion that MMOs mean for all players to be equal.

I think all players BEGAN equally, as a level 1 XX with no subjob in a main city making alliances to kill tiny mandragoras or what have you. The richest player on the server had the same stats and equipment as the guy who starts tomorow once.

The inequality is the amount of time played, that's all. Now the problem is if the guy who has played 2 years continues to play the guy who starts tomorow will NEVER catch up to him. How can he make up two years of gametime? A lot of oppotunities are closed to him that got the 2yr player where he is now. New opportunities have become fewer as the gillsellers move in on any gill-generating activity and the server population grows, so he has to deal with much more competition than the 2yr player did.

I guess there is more of an illusion of equality than actual equality, imo.

 

[Peregrine]

Not sure what to make of you of all people saying that {all people are equal in ffxi}.

I am not imposing anything, I am pointing out that the majority of players plays the game with the goal to better their character, be it to "be like the guy with all the cool gear", or be it to "get all the cool gear listed on allakhazam". Few people play the game just for fun and with disreard to equipment issues. Those people who manage to play the game just for fun are happier players, and things like rising prices have no impact on them.

I'd like to hear a factual argument that would support the notion that MMOs mean for all players to be equal.

Talk of inequality is nothing more than a fun place to take conversations when antagonism implies that there is inequality online. No one is better than anyone else online. They paid Square. You paid square. They don't cater to you any more than them. They take the NMs away from you and give it to them. They give them sushi when they can't afford enough acc gear to be effective. They give them solo content. They give them xp breaks. Square does not cater to the endgamers as if they even had to pay them attention. They already have them. Your 12.95 is already in their books. How long have you been waiting for more endgame content? How many times will they wave their hands and say no one is playing what they gave you? Everyone is equal. They listen to "them" as much as if not more than they listen to the elite. They own the elite.

If you play this game for competition you're a flawed minority. I don't see you all refusing to do uncompetitive dragon fights because it's pandering to the gimps of the game who can't claim. That's you all after all. Sooner or later SE reminds you that the game is equal, and they finally pay you attention. They told you the game was equal when they gave you ENMs. They told you the game was equal when they remodeled HNM spawn mechanics. Where were the elite snobs then? On the JP boards mocking you gimps.

Do you really think SE isn't going to let the person who plays only six hours a week in this game be EFFECTIVE at playing? Do you really think these players don't deserve to perform adequately? The game allows it whether you think they're gimps or not. SE does not allow a petty thing like how much time you play affect how well you can perform to a great degree, because you didn't pay any more to their bottom line than the "gimp" did. That gimp doesn't want to be you. They were never gimp. There is nothing I can't do with labeled gimps that you can do with elite, because the game remains more equal than gunners admit. Anything you try to hold over other players is useless and petty. They paid 12.95. You can't significantly perform better, so they are not "gimp."

There is nothing you can do that they can't, nor should there be. If they whine about prices of gear, they've just bought into the affected elite mentality that you NEEED in this game. NEED as if you'll fail without it. NEED as if you're less without it. You parse what...30 more damage in a BC 60. You know what, the gimp won son. That they won without the gear is more of a complement to them than anything. Why do you NEED better gear to win? Is there a deficit that YOU are trying to make up for by equipping better?

You can so easily turn the tables on elitists in this game by saying that the gimps can do anything they can, and they have the ABILITY to succeed with less. So who is the real gimp if you both win and they win with a bigger handicap?

Again, whining=affected buying-in to this need-based play that is wholly unsupported by the reality of the game. Simple as that.

 

[Peregrine]

Screw it. It suffices to say that all players are equal because there is nothing that 3-hour-a-weekers can't do that 40-hour-a-weekers can. Nothing at all. There is no aspect of the game that demands heavy time investment and game assets as a prerequisite to succeed at. Why? Because SE doesn't cater to time-spammers. When you pay by the hour they will deny people who play less access to success in the game.

 

[Mattaru]

I'm currently poor, I have good gear, the best pieces being rare/ex, I complained when my gear prices doubled in a week.

I have 4 crafts 50+, in consumables, hi lvl crafters and shihei gilsellers lower profit margins to the point that its useless to go that path. I break tier 2 in my main and sub crafts for lowbie armor, yet get sporadic HQ results for little profit. Most likely Sculli when you made your gil, if through crafting it was because markets werent flooded with hi lvl crafters. Any and everyway of making gils was not posted on the internet for anyone to see, making research fairly pointless (unless its HQ research which you need to sink a decent amount of gil into). If I had the knowledge i have now that I had when I started 500k would be something I could make in 2 weeks or so.

Basically, rich people dont complain about prices because they are rich (besides gil is pretty easy to come by if you have a hi lvl character that can farm hi stuff or just do HNMs), poor people complain because they are poor, and its disheartening, some people take it to extremes but some people have legitimate reasons for complaining....

Maybe if you stop bringing up the "I made money easy when I played over a year ago" card, like you have done in another thread, which i also refuted, id take you seriously.

 

[Phraust]

The value of all currency in liquid form devalues. Buy something worth 500k with that 500k and when prices raise you won't get screwed.

Can't do that all the time. Let's say I am selling an ingot of precious metal in game that is worth 500k to buy something else. Things don't sell instantly, and trade item for item (Bartering) is exceptionally rare. Liquid assets happen no matter what. What you are saying in essence is don't sell anything, and that's just not realistic. In order to save money up i need to sell items, hell who's to say the that 'something' you suggest I buy for 500k doesn't drop in value? Like a Kreiegsbiel for instance. If I had bought one of those as an investment before the ranger "adjustment" [@30 mil]I would have lost 65-75% of my investment(and almost did actually...) You can't predict the market that precisely.(Unfortunately)

 

[dedalius]

Try taking down say....JoL with an alliance of people with sub-par gear and lmk how you fare.

 

[dedalius]

Can't do that all the time. Let's say I am selling an ingot of precious metal in game that is worth 500k to buy something else. Things don't sell instantly, and trade item for item (Bartering) is exceptionally rare. Liquid assets happen no matter what. What you are saying in essence is don't sell anything, and that's just not realistic. In order to save money up i need to sell items, hell who's to say the that 'something' you suggest I buy for 500k doesn't drop in value? Like a Kreiegsbiel for instance. If I had bought one of those as an investment before the ranger "adjustment" [@30 mil]I would have lost 65-75% of my investment(and almost did actually...) You can't predict the market that precisely.(Unfortunately)

You can play this market just like the stock market. Buy low, sell high. Doing a little bit of research can show you how the market fluctuates. And buying a peice of gear for a job they say they're going to nerf is just stupid. You can either take a chance of maybe even making money over the inflation curve, or you can keep your wealth in gil and definitely come out behind. It's like buying a house vs. sticking a couple hundred thousand dollars under your bed. Which sounds like a better idea?

 

[Pompidou]

SE does cater to two different groups, as Sculli said, but I don't think his second group was the second group SE has in mind. There are hardcore gamers and there are casual gamers. If it looks like SE caters to the hardcore gamers more, it's simply a matter of need. Casual gamers progress slower by definition. They don't need steady updates. Many haven't seen most of what's already available as is. Hardcore gamers are the ones burning through SE's updates as soon as they happen. Any illusion that SE cares more for these people than casual players is just that, an illusion. SE gives us what we need as we need it. I believe CoP was a gift to the hardcore gamers. It came first because hardcore gamers needed new content faster. ToAU seems to be a gift to casual gamers. The game has been out long enough that even the three hour a week players are running out of stuff to do. That's my take on SE's stance on catering to the playerbase. SE likes us all equally, because as Peregrine said, 12.95 is 12.95.

 

[Halifirien]

If gil buying didn't exist, and if it didn't make such an impact, there wouldn't be so many god damn Gil Sellers on our fucking server.

Every time I go into Castle O and completely fail to get claim on Mee Deggi because of that wonderful team of Gil Sellers, I humbly ask God to rain lightning on all the assholes who "value their time" so much they'll just buy an O.Kote through Visa or Mastercard. It's fucking annoying.

I've had my pity party moment. Now back to your regularly scheduled program of dance music.

 

[Peregrine]

Try taking down say....JoL with an alliance of people with sub-par gear and lmk how you fare.

Ah, there's always one target where the current elite think they're the kings. Few months later...

 

[Mattaru]

You can play this market just like the stock market. Buy low, sell high. Doing a little bit of research can show you how the market fluctuates. And buying a peice of gear for a job they say they're going to nerf is just stupid. You can either take a chance of maybe even making money over the inflation curve, or you can keep your wealth in gil and definitely come out behind. It's like buying a house vs. sticking a couple hundred thousand dollars under your bed. Which sounds like a better idea?

You cant study our market as easily as the stock market, in fact irl most people have others do it for a living to make a living. I have a friend who AH speculates, makes some money on some gear, but he scours the AH. Finding these items isnt easy and is quite different then playing the stock market. The difference being AH deals with actual goods, the stock market speculates a corporations success. The parallel to the stock market would be like....buying stock in hi lvl crafters.

 

[Phraust]

You can play this market just like the stock market. Buy low, sell high. Doing a little bit of research can show you how the market fluctuates. And buying a peice of gear for a job they say they're going to nerf is just stupid. You can either take a chance of maybe even making money over the inflation curve, or you can keep your wealth in gil and definitely come out behind. It's like buying a house vs. sticking a couple hundred thousand dollars under your bed. Which sounds like a better idea?

You missed the point completely...

Let me re illustrate.

I am a level 30 thief and wish to buy a rabbit charm, which at the time is valued at 1,000,000 G ok?

I go mining.

Knowing that Ores have a positive slope in thier value historically I opt to save them untill I possess a proper amount netting me 1,000,000 G.

The day comes to sell.

I put 7 of 40 up, and get 25k each, over night.
The next day I put up 7 more, at 25k each again.
I repeat this for three more days, 25k each times 7.
The final day is christmas, and I look at the sales history and see my Ores are worth 100,000k I only ha5 5 left, put em up, and they sell in minutes. making me 500k.
Totally, I have now, 1,375,000 G!

But.. the rabbit charm is 4 mil now...

If I coulda sold ALL the ore on the last day, I coulda bought the charm, but in the time it took me to sell all the items, inflation had decimated my chances at getting the item I desired, in a mere 6 days, less than a week.

You can't predict stuff like that.

And that Happens a lot.

But the worst part is this:
Assume I am still the same thief...
I go back to the mines now to make more money to get the item knowing that the ore has increased in value, I have more incentive to mine.
I show up at the mines...
And there's 18 Gil sellers each parked at a mining point.
My mining time quadruples because I can't hit as many points but I get 30 more ore... to pay the rest of the rabbit charm..
Look on the AH and there is the gil sellers' names and 58 Ores up, price now at 80,000 G.
I put mine up at 75,000 to clear em out.
Three days later I get em back in my box.
Look at the ah and there are 62 ore up now and the value is 50k.
Sell em all for 40k... Via shouts.
The next day out of curiousity look at the price on the ore, there's now 46 being sold for 120,000 each.

This shit happens ALL the fucking time...

 

[dedalius]

Phraust- You forget that I am a member of the economy, I know how it works. Rather than having a bunch of cheaper items (the ores) why don't you buy a bigger item (say erase). Now, you can see that you have enough to buy the charm you sell the scroll. Doing what you're saying is like holding on to quarters when trying to buy a car. You don't hold on to quarters, you change them for dollars, then tens, then twentys, and so forth.

Your second problem, say you see them go at 80k, you put yours up for 75 and they don't sell. If you watch the items in the game then you learn the curves. Such watching produces results like: only sell stuff on saturday night/sunday morning, because thats when prices jump. Following market trends is what being a smart buyer is out. You can play our market exactly like wall street executives play theirs. I made a good 100k this weekend by buying/selling Spider webs. I bought 10 on Thursday afternoon for 30k apeice. Then I held them until Sunday mid-day when they reach peak (usually) and sold them for 40k apeice within minutes. You just have to watch the market and learn trends.

Mattaru- I'm not talking about your lucky 100k under price on a erase scroll, I'm talking about consistant ability to make money by watching AH trends. I rarely farm anymore because I can sit at the AH watching price trends and make plenty of money doing that. All it takes is some ability to read and process data. You can even use a spreadsheet program and create graphs. Sure the occasional under-buy is great but to consistantly make money you have to watch trends. Every economy has its trends, even one as artificial as ours.

 

[dedalius]

Ah, there's always one target where the current elite think they're the kings. Few months later...

Few months later because all of the elites have posted their strategies and make it easy for the non-elites to do it. Non-elites never would be able to take down stuff without the elites to do the work first. FYI before you start calling me an elitest, my highest job is 65 Bard and I am far from elite equipment.