Orz O.o;;

Apologize for the double post, but I missed part of Baj's post.
It seems to be an economical backing of the reasoning of Atlas Shrugged.
Adam Smith lived from 1723 - 1790, so assuming you are refering to the 1950-1960 best sellers novel of Atlas Shrugged, you have it backwards of who is supporting who. :wink:
 
Though I've been one of the people saying that gilbuying has no effect on the economy, I have to amend that statement slightly.

Gilsellers have a variety of means by which they gather the money that they sell to people, and unfortunately, a few of those ways involve the introduction of new gil into the system, mostly by means of fishing. We've all seen the gilsellers synthing rusty gear at every city in the game. I make it a general habit to /slap Lloo whenever I see him... >.> Accomplishes nothing of course, but makes me feel a little better.

The problem with applying Smith's economic theories to FFXI is that they assume that everyone is playing fair. Hell, that's the problem with applying them to anything, really. Note the Enron scandal.

Oh, and I want Rones to do another BCNM40 run with me... The one set of runs we did was litterally the best drops I've ever had on that stinking fight. ><
 
Just so you know, these guys are losing any money really to do such a thing. If you throw it up for 1 gil, then pay 700k, you will be buying your own scroll back, unless of course someone else had one up for that price. Putting something up for 1 gil runs about 100 I think, so they arent losing much money at all. Sucks man, but think about how kickass BCNM runs are now. You could potentially make like 1.4 million off a 40. You usually get either Ni or Erase from them.

Fae
 
You're right rones, I just didn't know of the dates for the two books. I accidently got the order wrong, but it could have been that Adam Smith's work was the basis for Atlas Shrugged, but that really doesn't matter.
 
There's too many of you economics people in here... you're making me feel like a (power) (tool).

Mmmm.... (/slap). No dumbass, stay on track!

As slim of a chance as it may have been, it could also be a mule purchase for his main. Maybe his ninja was off levelling in Altepa, just hit 37, ran to Rabao, jumped to mule, bought, sent to main?
 
Please rethink my statement, I said gilbuying defeats the purpose of the game in general. Of course this will cause inflation and of course there would be inflation no matter what due to the NPC's. My point was that the point of the game and money was to make the money yourself in game instead of using outside sources just to quicken your progress through the game.

The fact that the ToS dissalows gil buying and selling outside of the game is proof of that. You could go into massive detail about how different things effect the economy. Gil buying DOES effect the economy. Yes the gil is still and was created by people who's sole purpose is to make a profit off of a video game.

Therein lies the whole problem. What gilbuyers/sellers do is increase the rate of inflation in the game. By someone who outside of the game pays for the gil and then recieves it by spending no time whatsoever IN game and then buy the so called 'l337' gear that other players actually spend in game time to obtain. Often times these gilbuyers have no care for price and do not have the inhibitions of other players.

You can also take into effect the tactics that are used by the gilsellers. having many different Place holders on all the NM's, clogging up different zones and overall makeing it more difficult for people who play the game for the sole sake of playing a game. This is business to them and defeats the whole purpose of the game, to be played as a G A M E, not for profit gains or a daily paycheck.
 
What gilbuyers/sellers do is increase the rate of inflation in the game.
I don't think you have the proper understanding of inflation. What you described is simple price fluctuations. The main source of inflation is when extra money is created into the economy (quests, npc vendors) or there is less supply on sale, and deflation when money is destroyed (eg: dynamsis, chocobos) or there are surplus of products on sale. Simple exchange of gil between sellers and buyers does not affect inflation. While you argue a gilbuyer will spend their money more generously, the opposite can also be argued. I would value my gil more if I had to spend real money to get it, but this varies person to person. Even if they did spend it more, this would simply cause price fluctuations, but not real inflation because the volume of money being exchanged is the same and amount of products on sale is same.

My point was that the point of the game and money was to make the money
That's your point of the game. My point of the game is certainly not to earn gil. I hate earning gil and if that was a main point I would never play. Main points of the game to me is questing, lvling, meeting people, visiting friends, exploring, and having fun in general. Slaving to earn virtual money isn't fun nor a game to most people.
someone who outside of the game pays for the gil and then recieves it by spending no time whatsoever IN game and then buy the so called 'l337' gear that other players actually spend in game time to obtain.
Time spent farming in game or time spent working in the real world to earn the gil, what difference does it really make? Either way its work and not fun. I prefer the Japanese view on gilbuying, do what you are best at. If you are better at earning money in game with your time do that, or if you are better at earning money in real life and then buying your game money do that. Either way you are doing work, at least this way minimizes the time spent doing tedious work for the player and maximizes time spent doing fun activities. The problem stims from how the gilsellers supply the money (eg: monopolizing nms, selling products to npcs causing inflation instead of just doing a straight trade from player to player). If IGE did nothing but trade gil from one player to another with a middle man transaction fee, the inflation problem would have nothing to do with gilselling but simply SE's in adequate gilsinks in the economy.
 
What affects inflation the most, is that the gilsellers have a general monopoly on certain items. They can charge whatever they wish... creating large problems...

Sure, that money they get for the items was already in circulation, but people have to extract more gil from the environment in order to pay for them.
 
Rones said:
Time spent farming in game or time spent working in the real world to earn the gil, what difference does it really make? Either way its work and not fun. I prefer the Japanese view on gilbuying, do what you are best at. If you are better at earning money in game with your time do that, or if you are better at earning money in real life and then buying your game money do that. Either way you are doing work, at least this way minimizes the time spent doing tedious work for the player and maximizes time spent doing fun activities.

Rones, I have a question for you - Are you against or with cyber-criminals? I can point out quite a few similarities between them and gilbuyers.

Actually, I can make comparisons in every field and aspect of games or RL that show what you wrote was hypocrisy.
 
Are you against or with cyber-criminals? I can point out quite a few similarities between them and gilbuyers.
I am really unsure where you are coming from with this question. Cyber criminials are malicous hackers, spammers, and thieves. Gil buyers (or buying an video game property with rl money) is hard to group with cyber criminials. Yes, it is against the ToS, but that alone doesn't make it morally wrong. Just look at Everquests2's new view on purchasing game property with real money. Hackers hurt people, while gil buying (assuming it was as I described earlier a trade between two players with a middle man) is not going to hurt others. Inflation wouldn't be a factor in gil trading if it wasn't for the way gilsellers collect gil currently. Please point out these similaties so we can get some actual discussion.
Actually, I can make comparisons in every field and aspect of games or RL that show what you wrote was hypocrisy.
Please do instead of making unsupported insults. It is common courtesy to at least point outt what and why something is a hypocrisy rather than just accusing. I'm not even sure how 'every aspect and field of rl and the game' can even relate to a single issue. :?
 
The first page of this post I was fine with. The second page made my head hurt. Please excuse me while I just go hit something with my Scythe alot really hard.
 
Rones said:
Are you against or with cyber-criminals? I can point out quite a few similarities between them and gilbuyers.
I am really unsure where you are coming from with this question. Cyber criminials are malicous hackers, spammers, and thieves. Gil buyers (or buying an video game property with rl money) is hard to group with cyber criminials. Yes, it is against the ToS, but that alone doesn't make it morally wrong. Just look at Everquests2's new view on purchasing game property with real money. Hackers hurt people, while gil buying (assuming it was as I described earlier a trade between two players with a middle man) is not going to hurt others. Inflation wouldn't be a factor in gil trading if it wasn't for the way gilsellers collect gil currently. Please point out these similaties so we can get some actual discussion.

Gilsellers are making a profit off of someone elses medium. The ToS is basically SE telling us that they do not want us to trade money outside the game for work done inside the game. It would be like plagiarism taking someone elses work and using it for personal gain (or using it as your own words) so this has much more to do than with just morality. That person has directly stated that they do not want you using their words for anything yet you still do it. You are being too vague on the term cyber crime although I dont know for sure if you could group gilsellers with them.

As for above yes you are right I was misusing the Term inflation, but it still remains true that the gilsellers do have an adverse effect on how we play games. How many times have you had someone try to mpk you because you got the claim on serket or amemit. Take korroloka tunnel for instance, that used to be a prime place for farming, slime oil's, gigas socks, and even the morion tathlum that used to be 100k. I look at the AH now and see that it is worth 50k because they now have a monopoly on that area. What happens is the prices lower on the items that we use to gain money and price goes up on the items that we need. While this is debateable I have seen plenty of instances where this has happened.

You also have the problem of motivation. These people are pulling a daily grind for money. How they get their money is by playing ffxi for the sole purpose of obtaining gil any way possible. Its basically a black market for ffxi.
 
Recheck seawolf's origonal comment about cyber criminals. He was refering to gilbuyers. I also admitted that the current gilsellers tactics are very wrong. However, I wouldn't have much of a problem with them if it was nothing more than trade of gil between players for rl money with a possible middle man company charging a transaction fee. That would still be a violation of the ToS, but much more in line with EverquestsII's new system. The real problem is that SE's game allows these current gilsellers harmful tactics of gaining gil.
It would be like plagiarism taking someone elses work and using it for personal gain (or using it as your own words) so this has much more to do than with just morality
This is actually something that has been bouncing around in the courts. The question is do the players, who have put in a great deal of work, have any right/ownership of what they earn in the video games. With the current systems that would is a definite no, but is that the way it should be? Yes, no one should profit directly from SE's game (pirating product), but what about the items/gear/gil players earn in game. If the courts decide in favor of the gamer, we will see something of a 180 on this entire situation. As the net develops and ownership becomes less and less tangible I could see this coming about someday.
 
Rones said:
It would be like plagiarism taking someone elses work and using it for personal gain (or using it as your own words) so this has much more to do than with just morality
This is actually something that has been bouncing around in the courts. The question is do the players, who have put in a great deal of work, have any right/ownership of what they earn in the video games. With the current systems that would is a definite no, but is that the way it should be? Yes, no one should profit directly from SE's game (pirating product), but what about the items/gear/gil players earn in game. If the courts decide in favor of the gamer, we will see something of a 180 on this entire situation. As the net develops and ownership becomes less and less tangible I could see this coming about someday.

This is a neat concept to think about but also put it this way. You spend countless hours to get an item on a normal video game, you put in your time and effort to get the item, is it really of any value outside of the game? What should happen is the digital remain in the digital. This is getting harder to define as technology progesses though. What happens and I think this is in the ToS is that they have you understand that this is a virtual game and the items should have no value outside of the game. Everquests new system take the opposite approach. As for that I would rather have it be up to the producer to decide on these things. Everquest has their system and ffxi has its own system. As it stands we arent alloud to do it. Does it happen? Yes, does SE do anything about it? hmmm, thats a toughy ^_~
 
this is a virtual game and the items should have no value outside of the game.
Except that isn't possible. Anything that humans put time and effort into gains value. So while we can try to say digital data like this has no value, if demand, supply, and the effort to create the item say otherwise, it gains value. We all value our items we earn, and that gives them value. :wink:

This is a fairly recent philosophical/economic situation (in comparison to those that have been around for centuries) which warrents more consideration than our legal system's quick decision has given it. Just look at music and movies, it was easy to declare ownership when you had a physical object like a tape or dvd, but once it goes digital all the standards go out the window yet we still try to use them. The ability to reproduce an item to limitless amounts for example really messes with supply and demand which risks boiling over into the tangible market (eg: download mp3s instead of buying physical cd). Our current economic laws for physical goods does not carry over into the digital world very well. :oops:
 
Hehe, rones your a Ghost in the Shell fan arent you? If not... wth go out there and watch it already!!!! A lot of what has been discussed has actually happend in GitS. We are nearing the age where a cyberpunk story like that is getting close and closer to reality.
 
Yep, I've seen all the ones made so far on dvd. One of my favorite animes. I'm a big fan of all sci fi & cyber punk animes I can find. :o
 
Head-computer, datajack {can I have it?}
 
Back
Top