philosophy of suicide.

First, I have a penis.

Second, I'm plenty open minded. Please, tell me what can come out of killing yourself? My illness is forever lasting, it will never get better, only worse. I will never kill myself since it would make the pain of those around me only worse. I'm not strong willed or any of that crap. I'm just smart enough to know that when you're dead, you're dead. THAT'S IT. You're life is over.

If you come to me with a good argument then maybe I'll change my mind or calm down but all you've posted was crap telling me to not post. Daveman made an excellent post.

Also, when a person starts a thread with "when a person blah blah blah" it's generally assumed they're talking about themselves. It's like going to a doctor or something and saying "I have a friend who". For all we know you could just be wanting conformation on whether or not you should go through with it. You had a very short OP with very little info about anything. You just started with some crap about being a pain on others and asked for a philosophical discussion about suicide then told people to spam you with hate.

Penis is good.

when i see mithra, i assume female, since the character is female, until i'm told otherwise.

I never said you shouldn't post, in fact i believe i said the opposite. I -did- however say that if this topic is upsetting you than logically it might be better to self-censor yourself and stop reading it. It was a suggestion, not an order.

of course i was talking about myself. I've had suicidal thoughts many times over the course of my life. i've only been serious about it once or twice, and during those times i didn't discuss it, period. however, i was not looking for help, ect in this post. i was looking for other ppl's thoughts on the issue, and i am grateful to all who have contributed, including you Myrrh. I'm sorry that dejavu has misunderstood my intentions and believes i am playing the victim. if i was interested in doing that i'd be going into details about "oh woe is me, my life is so terrible because so and so did this to me blah blah, and it's all their fault and the world hates me and everyone is out to get me and so on and so forth." There also seems to be the pre-conveived notion that i have not done anything about my situation or sought out therapy/professional help. This also is not true, but i'm not here to go into the details of my life.

i did say to feel free to spam hate, etc, mainly because that's all i had expected in responses and wanted to portray that. perhaps that was tactless. I've been very pleased with the responses i've recieved and everyone's opinions give me food for thought.

I don't have much in the way of an argument for you here Myrrh about whether suicide is right or wrong. morality is very strickly a personal point of view and it all boils down to a person's choice. what one person sees can look very different to another. i'll take one of Exo's hypothetical situations.

a family is work several fulltime jobs to help out person "X". "X" suicides.

while one person may view the act as very selfish, another may see it as a selfless sacrifice.
"X"'s family were going out of their way to keep a person they cared deeply about in their lives. "X"'s suicide seem's to say that "X" felt their hard work was meaningless.

another take on that may be that "X" saw his family suffering for him and wanted to end that suffering.

then we of course get into the discussion about how this simply causes another sort of suffering and so on. i meerly wanted to present how one situation could look very different, dependant on POV.

again i want to thank everyone who posted for doing so. i'd love to hear more but i'm not quite sure how many more angles there could be to this. unless of course we go down the road of assisted suicide to those suffering physical pain on the road to emminant death.
 
People come from different cultures whats crazy and absurd in our culture is seen as beautiful and inspiring in others.
 
if a person causes pain to others, and continued misunderstandings, which seem to have negative effects in the extreme to those around them; if a person has become a burden, is it not better to just go? would this not be an act to free everyone involved? If i'm not here, i can't cause anymore upset to the people i care about.

discuss.

(feel free to spam me with hate or suggest this is an attention getting tactic. i expect no less. however, would be nice to have some philosophical discussion on the matter apart from the standard "you selfish prick" reactions to suggested suicide.) :blush2:

First of all if your even contemplating a "philosophical" discussion on suicide as a viable option for the end of a life, I suggest you take ownership of the arguments your presenting instead of veiling them in "If". That in itself is a insult to the people that respond to you and who are taking ownership. Define your parameters e.g burden ? Given the ambiguity of your paragraph I have trouble seeing how anyone could give it adequate address.
 
First of all if your even contemplating a "philosophical" discussion on suicide as a viable option for the end of a life, I suggest you take ownership of the arguments your presenting instead of veiling them in "If". That in itself is a insult to the people that respond to you and who are taking ownership. Define your parameters e.g burden ? Given the ambiguity of your paragraph I have trouble seeing how anyone could give it adequate address.

not quite sure what it is you are trying to say here? i've stated that i am not going to get into the specific details of my life. i'm sorry if you take that as an insult. (not sure how, but i don't exactly have the best social skills to allow me to relate to others, so i'll just chalk this confusion up to my own social retardation) perhaps it would have just been better if i had taken myself out of the equation altogether and posted something like "what are your philosophies on suicide. discuss." then it would have been easier to address? although i think the people who have responded have done an excellent job. :biggrin:
 
Watch Talladega Nights a few times, rub one out, go to sleep. You'll be ok.

lol ah yes, the best weapon in a manic depressive's arsenal: masturbation. or at least, one of my best weapons. :fapfap:
 
Really, Kohra, "You selfish jerk" is a very good response to people contemplating suicide. Because that's what it is, the most selfish thing a person can do in their life. They disregard other's feelings by taking the easy way out themselves. And why? Because the suicidee feel he have more problems then others? Because they don't want to struggle through life? Because he don't get good things handed to him?

Really now. Everyone in life is born with 100 problems, but you have 101. Your extra problem is thinking you can go through life WITHOUT problems.

I've experienced someone committing suicide myself. It wasn't someone I knew well. It was actually someone I strongly disliked in my class. One day, however, she took her father's shotgun, put it in her mouth, and pulled the trigger. Later that day when her parents came home from work, they walked in to her room with a surprise as it was her birthday. The surprise, however, was theirs. I can't even imagine the pain they must have felt seeing their daughter on the bed with a shotgun and her brain splashed all over the wall behind her. Needless say my class were never the same again. Even the people that hated her were affected.

At church some time later on the memorial, it was silent except for some people's silent sobs, the priest talking, and the heart-crushing sound of her mother crying like I've never heard anyone cry before.

A parent should never, under any circumstances, have to attend their child's funeral. What's worse is if their child commited suicide. Why? Because the parents will blame therselves for the rest of their lives. Their life will never be the same again, as they will try to figure out exactly what it was they did wrong. They will, in short, feel like they failed at one of lifes most important jobs.

Another mom I know had half her family killed of. Her husband was going to a BBQ party, and their daughter insisted on coming along, even though she didn't want her to. The father and the dauther had a fun time that day, and went to bed late. That, however, is the time where their life would end, and said mother would never be the same again. That day the house started burning, everyone made it out safely except for 2 people. Firemen worked hard to put out the fire, but it was impossible for them to enter the house.

The next day, the mother got a call from her mother, who asked her to come over because she wanted to talk to her. Even though she had no idea what had happened or what the conversation would be about, she dropped the phone and froze. On her way out to the car she half-run-half-crawled to the car in tears, and her hands shoke as she opened the car door. Speeding the entire way, her worryness could not hold her bladder tight, which emptied itself.

At her mother's house, she learned the shocking news of her husband and her daughter. She learned that their death was not painful, as they died in their sleep from the smoke. However, no one has had the heart to tell her that the remains of her husband and daughter were never found, as the house were completely burnt to the ground, leaving nothing intact. Since that day her life were never the same. Even though it wasn't her fault, she still blames herself for her daughter's death, thinking thoughts like "If I just wouldn't have let her go", or "If I hadn't screamed at her earlier that day she wouldn't have gone with him", and especially "I wish I had at least told her 'I'm sorry'".

To this day, 5 years later, even with extensive therapy, she blames herself, and the one thing she wishes above all else is to speak the words "I'm sorry" to her daughter. While these two cases are different from eachother, that is one thing they have in common. In both cases, the parents want nothing else then to at least be able to tell their child that they're sorry for all the mistakes they've done, for all the bad things they've said, that, no matter what happens, they love them.

In both cases, the parents would do almost anything to spend another day with their diseased child. However, they don't. They don't commit suicide in the hopes they will reunite with their child in the afterlife. They still struggle through life, even through the pain they feel. They struggle onwards not only for themselves, but for their family and friends. And after experiencing the death of their child, all other problems seem bleach in comparison.

When life feel rough, it can be easy to contemplate suicide. But under no circumstances is death actually the answer. Without any problems in life, without any pain, you would be unable to experience joy and happiness.

That is why I personally give a big fat "Fuck you" to anyone that commit suicide. They are selfish bastards with no consideration for those who love and care for them. Who are they to think their problems are harder or worse than anyone elses? That is, despite what you might think, a selfish attitude. You say "You don't know what problems I have". No, I agree. But guess what, you don't know what problems anyone else have either. You can't say your problems are SO god damned hard that suicide is the only solution. Man the fuck up and learn to deal with them like the rest of the world. Whatever you might think, there's always people with tougher and harder problems.

Have you been locked up in your cellar your entire life and raped by your father on a daily basis and given birth to several of his children? no? Have you been rejected by your family and tortured every day and been forced to work as a slave for your own family? no? Interesting, isn't it, that all of those with the toughest problems actually struggle through them without commiting suicide. they know the hardships of life and have learnt to deal with it, and appreciate the other things in life. And you're contemplating suicide? Nothing, no pain in the world, compare to the pain a mother feel when they lose their child. Nothing have ever pained me more then seeing these mothers cry over their lost children. The death of my grandmother felt weak compared to the pain I felt when these mothers cried in the church.

Really. Selfish prick is the only words I can think of in the case of suiciders.
 
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I'm not trying to press this Uzor but since I don't know the entire situation at all by any means I will tell you what my mind wandered about the 1st instance.

It was actually someone I strongly disliked in my class...Needless say my class were never the same again. Even the people that hated her were affected.
What if you were part of the reason behind this? Was you and your peers "dislike" and "hatred" a contributing factor? We have these problems here in the states and it's people like this that normally lead to Columbine or Virginia Tech..

Because the parents will blame themselves for the rest of their lives.
What about them? The parents could of been a high contributing factor of stress and anger and depression. They could have been physically and mentally abusive to the girl no?

Like I said I don't know the whole story but those were just some of the thoughts that peaked into my mind. If indeed she was just little sally I love the world, bang, fuck this I'm out. Then I'm wrong but then again why should anyone have to justify their suicide to our society who isn't very tolerable of the subject in the 1st place
 
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What kind of discussion are you hoping for? This isn't a religious debate between Christians and Atheists or something. There is no upside to suicide at all. Nor is there a reason for it. All you'll continue to get is people saying how bad it is, how useless it is, the pain you'll cause to those around you, and so on. There isn't any sort of discussion between the two options.
 
The way that you've approached the "philosophical side" of suicide is a complete fucking slap in the face to anyone who has had to deal with the suicide of a loved one. The fact that you were so concerned with your own (selfish) emotions instead of stopping to think about how this would effect other people disgusts me, quite frankly. If you've thought about suicide as many times as you say, I'm not really surprised that you were unable to put the needs, emotions, and desires of someone else above your own.

If you "can't deal with it all anymore", you need to get help. If you say its "for the best for everyone else", you need to quit being so fucking arrogant. Who in the hell do you think you are to be making those decisions for other people? If those people don't want you in their lives, they will stop talking to you. Its really that simple. There is never any "need" for suicide. Ever.
 
First of all if your even contemplating a "philosophical" discussion on suicide as a viable option for the end of a life, I suggest you take ownership of the arguments your presenting instead of veiling them in "If". That in itself is a insult to the people that respond to you and who are taking ownership. Define your parameters e.g burden ? Given the ambiguity of your paragraph I have trouble seeing how anyone could give it adequate address.


While I'm not really up for discussing the philosophy of suicide with a perfect stranger, I did look through these posts. I agree with 2 posts more than any other.

Firstly, this one from Mielle. In short, take this seriously and own up to your issue. The manner of your posts is way too whiny and emo. You want genuine responses from people, but seem to pick and choose what you like and don't like about them. While a person is entitled to their own philosophy about anything, and you know this, you're quick to turn your back on ideas you don't want to hear. That lends to people responding (or reading) feeling insulted. You solicit thoughts and then come off unappreciative when you receive them. Some fundamental changes need to happen here, and those changes will help you now and down the road.

Secondly, Tristam's initial reply was genuine, as well as solid advice. I'll back that suggestion as well and tell you I think you should look into that...More than you feel you ought to, apparently.


At the end of the day though, if you're gonna do what you feel like doing, even after soliciting the genuine thoughts of this forum, then I can only tell you to do what you gotta do and be done with it.



Add the entirety of this post to the other 2 I highly agree with:
The way that you've approached the "philosophical side" of suicide is a complete fucking slap in the face to anyone who has had to deal with the suicide of a loved one. The fact that you were so concerned with your own (selfish) emotions instead of stopping to think about how this would effect other people disgusts me, quite frankly. If you've thought about suicide as many times as you say, I'm not really surprised that you were unable to put the needs, emotions, and desires of someone else above your own.

If you "can't deal with it all anymore", you need to get help. If you say its "for the best for everyone else", you need to quit being so fucking arrogant. Who in the hell do you think you are to be making those decisions for other people? If those people don't want you in their lives, they will stop talking to you. Its really that simple. There is never any "need" for suicide. Ever.
 
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What kind of discussion are you hoping for? (snip) All you'll continue to get is people saying how bad it is, how useless it is, the pain you'll cause to those around you, and so on.

You're more than likely right and this discussion has probably run it's course. though, you never know, someone might have something new to say on it that we never thought of.
 
The manner of your posts is way too whiny and emo. You want genuine responses from people, but seem to pick and choose what you like and don't like about them. While a person is entitled to their own philosophy about anything, and you know this, you're quick to turn your back on ideas you don't want to hear.


*cocks eyebrow* Not quite sure where you're getting this from sneakypants. Throughout this entire discussion i've been rather clinical and devoid of emotion in my responses. perhaps you're seeing me as whiney and emo because you expect someone who has considered suicide to be so? or maybe i really am coming off that way.

As to picking and choosing which ideas i like and do not like, i think i've pretty much responded fairly to everyone that posted. of course i pointed out the things in particular that really caught my attention, but that's human nature. we gravitate towards what we agree with. However i have read everyone's post (with the exception on linhjah's) and given them all serious contemplation. What has been said here has given me a lot of things to think about, some of which have never really been presented to me before. either that or i just wasn't receptive to them at the time.

I appologize if anything i've said has come across as insulting.
 
It really is pointless. I would say more, but it's already been said by everyone I agree with that suicide is a completely lose/lose situation. Although at the same time, you have the right to reject life if you want to, but it's an entirely meaningless decision. Humans are capable of doing nearly anything, that doesn't mean you should do it.
 
*cocks eyebrow* Not quite sure where you're getting this from sneakypants. Throughout this entire discussion i've been rather clinical and devoid of emotion in my responses. perhaps you're seeing me as whiney and emo because you expect someone who has considered suicide to be so? or maybe i really am coming off that way.

As to picking and choosing which ideas i like and do not like, i think i've pretty much responded fairly to everyone that posted. of course i pointed out the things in particular that really caught my attention, but that's human nature. we gravitate towards what we agree with. However i have read everyone's post (with the exception on linhjah's) and given them all serious contemplation. What has been said here has given me a lot of things to think about, some of which have never really been presented to me before. either that or i just wasn't receptive to them at the time.

I appologize if anything i've said has come across as insulting.


I've had a friend blow his head off and 92 year old grandmother-in-law that could hardly move somehow find the strength and will to swing from the pipes in the basement. I'm pretty sure of the way I "expect" suicidal people to behave. This post in itself isn't really suicidal behavior, but again, my best and most true suggestion to you would still be to go talk to someone that is a professional in the field. Cock your little eyebrow all you want to that.

Of course we all gravitate naturally towards some ideas more than others. That's besides the point. All anyone here can hope for is that you speak the truth to what you say, bolded in the quote.
 
The way that you've approached the "philosophical side" of suicide is a complete fucking slap in the face to anyone who has had to deal with the suicide of a loved one. The fact that you were so concerned with your own (selfish) emotions instead of stopping to think about how this would effect other people disgusts me, quite frankly. If you've thought about suicide as many times as you say, I'm not really surprised that you were unable to put the needs, emotions, and desires of someone else above your own.

If you "can't deal with it all anymore", you need to get help. If you say its "for the best for everyone else", you need to quit being so fucking arrogant. Who in the hell do you think you are to be making those decisions for other people? If those people don't want you in their lives, they will stop talking to you. Its really that simple. There is never any "need" for suicide. Ever.

I couldn't agree more with everything Linh said. There's a lot of ego involved in "this is what's best for everyone else." The fact is, everyone else has the right to decide what's best for themselves, up to and including saying piss off and walking away from a relationship that isn't healthy for them. To try to control that for them, and in such a vulgar, selfish, and harmful way is not only cowardly but incredibly cold. The thing about love - real love not "oh, I love you this week" - is that on occasion, you do something that is better for them and not necessarily better for you. If you think offing yourself is better for them, you are kidding yourself and you need to seek help to figure out why you'd even think that Death causes agony to the people left behind in ways that are permanent and traumatic - and believe me, if they thought they were "responsible" for you wanting to die, it would torture them always.

The fact is, life isn't easy. No one gets a free ride. Even the people that seem like they have it all have problems, have sorrow, and have angst. But you have a little respect for yourself, and the people who love you, and you suck it up and live another day. If you don't like your life, you change it. And don't give me "it's too hard" or "I don't have the means." If there is a will, there's a way. If you want something bad enough, you will find a way to make it happen. If you choose to die rather than live, you need to understand that you are copping out. Every emotion passes, even the clinically diagnosed ones. It takes far more courage to live than to take your own life.
 
Everyone goes through life and hits rough spots, some of which put people in a dark place. I know I've been there on more than one occasion, contemplating suicide for whatever reasons you might have. Rebellion, anger, frustration, release, just to get away from your problems. If you think you're really a burden, ask yourself why? What makes you such a burden on others, and are those real reasons? Do you think the people around you really don't love you? As much as you might question your effect on other people, there's always someone around that cares for you, even if they don't show it.

If your intent is to relieve the burden, there's always another way. There's always times when you just want to get away from it all, and escape your own emotions, but there are certainly ways to help yourself out of that hole rather than suicide. Suicide has such an emotional effect on the people around you, but it's rarely a positive one. You might think you're a burden to them now, but if you commit suicide, you're a burden on them for the rest of their lives. Everyday they have to question themselves why it happened, and they'd probably blame themselves.

Whenever someone seems suicidal or tells you they're suicidal, it should always be taken seriously. I don't think it's something that should ever really be joked about, or that person made fun of or have their feelings invalidated. Too many times someone who's suicidal isn't taken seriously and they need nothing more than for someone to lend a caring ear. I've had to be that person many times over, as well as being on the other side of it all, and I would never refuse someone that asked me for help.
 
To say "my suicide would be best for everyone" is just self-justification for selfish gratification. You're not committing suicide to please other people, you're committing suicide because you don't want to deal with the problems you perceive yourself to be causing, intentionally or inadvertently.

If you kill yourself, you might not be around to upset other people, no. But your death will become the giant fucking pink elephant in the room. Everyone knows it's there, but nobody wants to talk about it. It won't lessen the emotional burden you perceive yourself to be placing on others.

Now, financial burdens, for those with illnesses that prevent them from improving their own situation, those could arguably be lessened by suicide. So fucking what? You think people will thank you for that, you are sorely mistaken. If they care enough to work those double or triple shifts, or hold down multiple jobs, or do go without things so that they can care for you, then your suicide not going to make them happy. On the one hand, they can perceive it as a huge slap in the fact, that they weren't doing enough for you. On the other, they can perceive it as a different slap in the fact, and perceive (perhaps more accurately) that you weren't willing to put forth the same effort that they were.

Now, people with emotional problems who live in their parent's basement, draw an allowance, and generally play the "pity poor me, I'm not well" card when the issue comes up, those people just irritate the piss outta me. I've had emotional problems. I was placed on drugs so fucking severe that these days, they're recommended for no more than a month or two of use, and I got put on them for 4 fucking years.

You know what? I still had a fucking job. I improved my situation. I resolved my issues, completed therapy on myself when the damn shrinks couldn't get to the root of the problem, weaned myself off the medication they put me on, and ultimately I'm back in school now, improving my situation again. I'm going to be married in 372 days, to a person I love more than anything. I'm, on the whole, ridiculously fucking happy with my life.
 
.

a family is work several fulltime jobs to help out person "X". "X" suicides.

while one person may view the act as very selfish, another may see it as a selfless sacrifice.
"X"'s family were going out of their way to keep a person they cared deeply about in their lives. "X"'s suicide seem's to say that "X" felt their hard work was meaningless.

another take on that may be that "X" saw his family suffering for him and wanted to end that suffering.

.

I feel that as long as "X" is old enough to live by themselves legally and is able to work then I suggest they move away. "X's" family might be sad or angry at said person, but to know they're still safe, could end the families suffering and when things start to turn around (which it most likely will at the end) then you could return to work things out in the end.
Point being there are other alternatives to suicide that can end others suffering and have a less dramatic way of ending things. Its like drug addicts, the only way to change is to take yourself out of the environment that is making you do the things you do.
 
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