philosophy of suicide.

[Kotsu]

if a person causes pain to others, and continued misunderstandings, which seem to have negative effects in the extreme to those around them; if a person has become a burden, is it not better to just go? would this not be an act to free everyone involved? If i'm not here, i can't cause anymore upset to the people i care about.

discuss.

(feel free to spam me with hate or suggest this is an attention getting tactic. i expect no less. however, would be nice to have some philosophical discussion on the matter apart from the standard "you selfish prick" reactions to suggested suicide.) :blush2:

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. I chose to ignore this thread for a while, assuming it'd get locked. However, since it's open I decided to take a look.

One of my best friends committed suicide on September 17, 2006. Whatever was going through his head, it wasn't him. I seen the signs of depression, a bit of a inclination towards a suicidal tendency. However, I thought he wouldn't do it. We were extremely alike, and even though I thought of suicide frequently, I never would do it. The fact that I seen the signs and didn't say anything is something I regret everyday. I partially blame myself for the outcome. I dropped out of college (was going for bio-chem major / pre-medical) and decided to focus completely on work, try to do something with a bit less responsibility. At least, as far as life-death scenario's go, considering I proved to myself that I couldn't be trusted with big decisions. So there's a short back story as to why I feel the way I do about what I'm typing.

Simply put, get the fuck over yourself if that's the way you're feeling. People choose what burdens they are going to take on. If you're that much of an inconvenience, they wouldn't take you on as a burden. If someone's shoulders aren't strong enough to carry you, they'll just drop you and go down with you, but it's still their choice to make. For that matter, you are your own person. If you don't want to be a burden anymore, work harder. I mean, really and genuinely work harder. I'm not going to be naive enough to say that hard work alone will get you out of any down-point your life is in. That would be ridiculous to assume. What is safe to assume though, is that you can never get out of a down-point by yourself without hard work. Sometimes you need your hard work and the help of someone else, but either way... You take the initiative and make the change and fight it head on like a man. Running away and taking the cowards way out of fucking bullshit. There's no sense in proving to god and others that you're not worth the life you were blessed with by opting out and taking the path of suicide.

 

[Princemercury]

I hate emos.

 

[Tribalinius]

here is my take on this:

What about helping other people to suicide themselves? 5 years ago I had to make the most difficult choice of my life. The November of that year my mother got a cancer diagnostic but with a 90+% chance of getting through it no problem. So November come to an end and she gets her first surgery. They were able to remove a part of the cancer from her bladder but not enough. So she had to undergo a new surgery after Christmas.

At this point my grades were plummeting at a fast pace. I had so much conflict in my life (broken heart, very big problems with my father to the point we came to fight each other (for the record, I gave him a beating and I leveled up), even my cat died). Funny to say, but my mother was the only one I could talk too. I didn't have a very large friend network at that time (fat + nerd + wearing glass = fail). And for quite some time I though about suicide, and I would lie if I say I don't think about it from time to time. But the point is, I was worried about my mom state. Death is not a taboo in our family, she worked for 25 years as a nurse in the (sorry I don't know the term) old people department. So people came and went during those years and she talked about her experiences openly.

One day before her surgery, she came in my computer room as I was playing Final Fantasy VII (I remember because she sat there for about an hour watching me beating the crap of mobs) and she looked very serious. At first we talked normally but she ask me a question:

"If anything happens, will you please disconnect me and let me die?"

Pause 1 sec..

I was 18yo, not necessarily sure of what I was doing and she had a call few months back from a psychologist at the school that someone reported me having suicidal tendencies at some point Oo, but she asked me the question.

To say the least it shocked me. Helping someone to get killed. I don't remember exactly what I answered, but it's something along the line: "you know mom, I won't let you suffer for nothing."

So fast forward to the start of January, my mom is scheduled to undergo a 2nd surgery, she pack and leave on the 3rd or 4th I don't recall. They needed to do some tests before and was ready to go on the 6th. It was suppose to be an easy surgery, and she would be up and running before the 15th. But, the operation did not go as well, the doctor broke some blood conduit while doing the surgery. Noone paid attention / noticed (at this day we still don't know the answer) until the alarm went on. At this point, she was already "dead" since more blood was leaving her body than coming in. The final diagnostic was the death of the brain.

So that night, I came back from school and I got a message to call back the doctor as soon as possible (not my father, me). At this point I changed color. So I call the doc to get the bad news. The doctor convicted me and my family to the hospital the next morning. The only thing is, I was the only one aware of the situation. So yeah, it did not end up well. The whole "crew" was shocked by the news. (I knew later that the nurses present in the room were having some kind of shots in their pockets to keep us down if hell would have been set loose lol). My mom was still alive, but with no brain activity. She was dead but not totally.

So here I am, having the choice of a lifetime to take. I had to take someone's life away with my own hand. I made a promise to my mother to not let her suffer, but still, I had to do it.

It took me a while to take a decision, some people tried to convince me to reconsider my decision too. But in the end I had to pull the plug for my mother, to kill her. Just to remember the sound of my sister screaming in the other room, and the machine giving a 0 heartbeat still give me the creep. I think in the end I made the right choice, I just helped her to go away and to let us live on. If the opposite would have happened, I'm pretty sure she would have done the same. Noone want to suffer as much as our family did.

Is that ethical or not to do that? Is it ok to keep people alive for the sake of having them alive when they will clearly not come back?

People may think that I am selfish for having done what I did, playing with a human life is no joke but I still stand next to my decision. I couldn't bare any longer to see my mother helplessly staying alive on a machine and that day I took out the life of the most important person in my life. If you call that selfish you're wrong, I helped her out to get out of her misery. Even if she wouldn't ask me to do it, I would have done it anyway.

My opinion on the suicide is very personal, since it touches me on a weird way, but I don't think it's selfish to let you go away. It may be tough for people around you, but they'll overcome it one day. I don't condone suicide on any way btw, but if you feel like your time has come. You can still seek professional help, but even before then your toughs are usually set. I prefer to have a control over that factor then rather let someone/something decide of my fate.

Ok, long ass post, its almost 3am here, feels like it's coherent but it's a little blurry and I don't want re-read everything lol.

 

[Lukas]

Ok, long ass post, its almost 3am here, feels like it's coherent but it's a little blurry and I don't want re-read everything lol.

My mother has a brain tumour wrapped around blood vessels and the doctor's are not sure if it is benign or malignant just yet, so we're just waiting for the results. If it does turn out to be malignant, then it would be the worst case scenario, as the tumour is inoperable due to where it is located. The thought of being in your situation frightens me, so I truly sympathise and send my condolences.

Which makes what I'm about to say very difficult and possibly offensive, so please just be aware that I do not mean to be cruel. Your mother shouldn't have put you in that situation. If I were asked the same thing, I would tell my mother to sign her own DNR order (I believe they only apply to cardiac arrests or respiratory failure, but I'm not certain) and to leave me out of it. The only life I ever want to be responsible for is my own. Yes, I can be called selfish, because I still want her around and because the consequences of such a decision would be too difficult to live with considering I am the one who will have to do the living thereafter. I already told her I wont do it - so if it's something she really wants the initiative will have to be taken by her alone.

 

[Tribalinius]

Which makes what I'm about to say very difficult and possibly offensive, so please just be aware that I do not mean to be cruel. Your mother shouldn't have put you in that situation. If I were asked the same thing, I would tell my mother to sign her own DNR order (I believe they only apply to cardiac arrests or respiratory failure, but I'm not certain) and to leave me out of it. The only life I ever want to be responsible for is my own. Yes, I can be called selfish, because I still want her around and because the consequences of such a decision would be too difficult to live with considering I am the one who will have to do the living thereafter. I already told her I wont do it - so if it's something she really wants the initiative will have to be taken by her alone.

That brings me back to "Is that ethical to let someone artificially live?" The main problem I see here, and I had to face it too, is that the person can't make a choice on his own. If DNR can take care of it, at least you won't have to do that on your own and that's alright. I know personally I'll have to live the rest of my life with those memories. I respected my mother more than anybody else I ever knew, so I owed her that much to free her from that eternal coma. But on the other hand it's alright to refuse to do something like I did. Noone will blame or be mad at you for that. It's a hell of a call to do and I would rather not do it again.

Other people may be mad and flame me for having taken that life, but is that human for someone to see his closest friend/parent hooked up to a machine with 0 chance of coming back? After 1 month of going to the hospital every day and taking in consideration either you want to remove the cables or not, you come to a logical answer. I'm not a blood thirsty person either but in the end I came to the conclusion that she was already dead, why still pushing it like "omg she will come back from the dead"? I opted for the logical solution. It wasn't an easy call to do, but someone had to stood up and take action, and unfortunately for me, it was me.

I know the debate is on about the fact if it's ethical or not to let someone live artificially. I personally think that's for the best for the concerned person and his friends/parents to let someone go in the end. But it's hard for someone to conceive how much pain and suffering you can take about a question like that until the said person goes through something similar.

On a side note I'm very sad to learn that your mother may have cancer and I empathize with you since I went through the same process. It's kinda nerve wracking, but I wish you luck. Keep the head up and learn from that life experience either it's good or bad news.

oh well, an another long ass post >.>;

 

[masterorion]

Which makes what I'm about to say very difficult and possibly offensive, so please just be aware that I do not mean to be cruel. Your mother shouldn't have put you in that situation.

in 07, my mother was diagnosed with lung cancer. by the time she was diagnosed, it was already in the process of r a while. it had moved onto the brain also. they did khemo and all that good stuff. obviously, that treatment isnt 100%. in her case, it definately wasnt. it wasnt working for her.i remember the last doctors visit, i will always remember this visit vividly, because of the cancer/khemo, my mother used a wheelchair to get around easier...so, i was the one responsible for driving and taking her places such as dr visits since im the only capable sibling in the fam. well, on this one, it was told to my mother, "its not looking well." that is pretty much all the doctor had to say. both my mother and i knew what she had meant. my mom asked me to ask the hardest question ive ever had to ask someone. even though it was only like 3 words. i went down the hall and asked Dr, "how much longer". i definately wasnt expecting the answer that i had gotten. 3 weeks.
i figured, well, it will probably really be 2 months. nope. it was quite close to 3 weeks. she passed in may of that year.

the cancer causes the body to be very weak. she was bed ridden for the last 2 weeks. without getting up for anythgin. i had to take her liberties away. she had bought her dream car finally after 20 some years. she loved driving. but i couldnt allow her to use it.
i was told, and since im the oldest, that if she was on life support, she wanted me to tell them to take her off of it. as much as it would have been a horrible thing to do, and "someone shouldnt be in that situation", i was. and i accepted it. why? because i wouldnt want to extend something that isnt going to get better. someone has to do it if they asked.

from that point, i spent as much time as i could with my mother after she passed. obviously there is the day before the actual funeral at the viewing. then there is the actual funeral. most immediate families sit in the front row and follow the casket as its carried out. i wanted to just lead but at the same time, i found it necessary to carry her out since she was the one to raise me through childhood. also rode in the hearse to the cemetary. people may ask why? or why did you find it necessary to do that...well, my mother was the only parent i had. she did her best. she wasnt good at it at all by any means. we were lower than average for income. she was the black sheep in the fam. so, she was always reminded of how much she didnt amount to. she didnt do college, she barely finished HS. she did drugs in the 60s (who didnt), and she never really had a high paying occupation. all of her brothers and sister typically looked down on her since they were all successful. but you know what, she did the best that she could do for us. it was my show of respect and thanks to her.

 

[Silentsmurf]

If this info has been posted before, I'm sorry. Albert Camus was a nobel prize winning author, who lived just into the 1960's. "The Myth of Sisyphus" was one of his books dealing with the types of question/emotions associated with suicide. Was required reading for psych class, and all and all very interesting. Link to wiki below for a summary.

The abridged version: Suicide is bad, revolt and fix your life/self/world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

"Camus undertakes to answer what he considers to be the only question of philosophy that matters: Does the realization of the meaninglessness and absurdity of life necessarily require suicide?

He begins by describing the absurd condition: much of our life is built on the hope for tomorrow yet tomorrow brings us closer to death and is the ultimate enemy; people live as if they didn't know about the certainty of death; once stripped of its common romanticisms, the world is a foreign, strange and inhuman place; true knowledge is impossible and rationality and science cannot explain the world: their stories ultimately end in meaningless abstractions, in metaphors. "From the moment absurdity is recognized, it becomes a passion, the most harrowing of all."

 

[Zephayra]

Other people may be mad and flame me for having taken that life, but is that human for someone to see his closest friend/parent hooked up to a machine with 0 chance of coming back? After 1 month of going to the hospital every day and taking in consideration either you want to remove the cables or not, you come to a logical answer. I'm not a blood thirsty person either but in the end I came to the conclusion that she was already dead, why still pushing it like "omg she will come back from the dead"? I opted for the logical solution. It wasn't an easy call to do, but someone had to stood up and take action, and unfortunately for me, it was me.

I know the debate is on about the fact if it's ethical or not to let someone live artificially. I personally think that's for the best for the concerned person and his friends/parents to let someone go in the end. But it's hard for someone to conceive how much pain and suffering you can take about a question like that until the said person goes through something similar.

I agree with you here. It might seem cruel and cold to some, but also very loving and compassionate.

Life is frail and that is why we cherish it so much. We are often confused and hurt when people decide to end theirs. However, assisted suicide, or euthanasia if we want to call it its prettier sounding term, is a whole different side of the coin.

Too often I see old people come in for their own funeral looking like they haven't been able to actually live a life. I dread the day that I may end up in a wheelchair, unable to communicate to those around me and being spoonfed applesauce by a nurse who, as compassionate as they might be, sees me as a just another dead body just waiting to happen.

The same goes for me feeling about having to life off a machine. Of course, I don't want to die. In fact, as a healthy 20 something year old, I'm a bit scared to die because there is so much I haven't done, and so much I don't know about the other side. But if I were to be seriously injured and couldn't speak, couldn't get up and walk, read a book, enjoy the weather but only eat and sleep, refined to a hospital bed...What kind of life would that be?

I would rather someone have the compassion to put me out of my misery, then have me live a life of total dependence and assistance. I know people would argue that animals are different, and we can't compare ourselves, but don't we put down our pets because we love them so much that we don't want them to suffer any longer? Why can't it be the same for those we love?

It is the subject of many debate here. A man in Canada took is wife, crippled with MS to another country to help her with assisted suicide. Recently, some woman named The Baroness has stated that people with Alzheimers or dementia should do away with themselves before they become a burden on their family and drain the Public Health Care that is needed to sustain their life, because they are no longer 'themselves'.

I just feel it is a personal decision one has to make by themselves. I don't agree with The Baroness that people with a disease should just go off themselves. I don't think all people on life support should be put down, so to speak, if they and their families don't believe in it. However, I just wonder if it would be a viable option in the future.

 

[Uzor]

Tribalinus, I think that's a different case really. Committing suicide as we see it is usually because people are depressed and are overwhelmed with problems they see no easy solution too. Death help on the other hand is usually for more serious cases. I don't think it is even possible to compare those two.

Really, imo, you made the right choice. Your mother asked you to not let her suffer, and it'd be highly likely she wouldn't have woken up from that either. Keeping her alive wouldn't lead to anything, other than your family's suffering. Sure, it might feel good to be able to visit her, and clinge to the hope that she one day would wake up. However, I think in the long run it would have lead to negative feelings amongst you.

I'm of the opinion that, since your mother was pretty much dead anyway, it'd be nicer and easier to handle if she passed away and you had a funeral for her. Really, everyone who has experienced the death of someone close to them know that once the funeral is over and you've been able to properly say farewell to the person, everything usually feels better.

 

[Myrrh]

There is a huge difference there. Ending ones life cause they're sad and ending ones life cause they're like your mother are completely different cases. Hell, I've told my mother that if Cystic Fibrosis puts on all those support machines that I want her to "Pull the plug" as it were.

Theres a man at the hospital where I go to when I get sick. I've seen him there with tubes in his neck, chest, and god knows what else. The only thing I think he's capable of is blinking. He's been there at least 3 years now. His family is there everyday cleaning his room, changing him, and talking to him.

That right there is what I call hell. I'd rather die then have that. But saying you want to end life cause you're a relatively healthy person because you think you're a burden on those around you is a fucking moronic thing to say and it's a slap to the face to all those who care about you.

Fuck, I had a cousin who killed herself cause she was raped and got pregnant. My mom was very close to her and the look on her face when she heard the news was something I've never seen before. My mom is a crazy, angry, messed up son of a bitch but I've never seen a face like that on her before.

And this thread still pisses me off <_<

 

[Chasym]

The pain or burden you may cause people in life, can always be overcome if you want it to be.
The pain and burden you cause people by taking your life and forcing them to carry the pain and memory of it until the day they die is a much worse than if you had stayed around to work on it.

I am a suicide survivor. Something i do not talk about often, but i died. Yep, i died and came back. I hung myself in my parents basement when i was 16 because i felt i had too much responsibility forced upon me my whole life, i raised my 2 brothers and little sister since i was 4 while my mom worked 2 or 3 jobs and my dad drank his life away. Dad never supported anything i did, led me to believe i could never do anything right, and wouldnt hesitate to inflict a beating on me at a moments notice for any reason he saw fit.
When i turned 16 and realized that after all this time i still was left to do everything and couldnt have a life outside of my house, had girlfriends break up with me because i could never get away to come see them outside of school, one night i had enough.
Grabbed an extension cord, tied up a noose, stood on a chair and kicked the chair out from under me. Everything faded to black and moments later (actually i dont know how much later it was)
i woke up on the basement floor, My best friend was on the phone screaming and crying.
Apparently he was on his way to my house to come hang out un announced, and because he was like family he was allowed to walk in without knocking.
He tells me he walking in and saw me struggling for a second and stop moving and breathing. He did everything he could to get me down and i just fell on the floor.
He was sure i was dead. Infact, i was. I wont get into how or why i know this or what i had seen to prove this. But i died.
after i became coherent again i told my friend to swear he would never tell my parents or anyone for that matter.
Well, he did tell them. He and his mom showed up at my house that night and told my mom everything, he was afraid i hated him and stayed behind his mom bawling his eyes out not saying anything but "im sorry, i had to"
And i never hated him for it, that was the move of a true friend.

My mom cried and kept asking me why, and i couldnt get a word out because i was so choked up...my dad rushed home from the bar drunk but sobered through it enough to know what was going on.
Like my dad he instead of caringly asking what happened, took it as a time to yell at me some more until he calmed down and i explained what throwing all that responsibility on me had led to. How i never got to be a kid.

Well, my mom worked less after that, my dad stayed home more. And i half moved out for a year, living with different family members all around ohio. I never talked to them about what happened, but i knew that my parents had told them. And they never asked me about it. Only my uncle who had a similar experience brought it up after a week of staying in cleveland with him, finally asked "how come you havent talked about what you did...you woulda killed me if you killed yourself you know that?"

That, ironically was the best year of my life. I got away from everything, i got to live and be on my own for awhile around people i loved. I came home on occasional weekends and stayed with my parents, but couldnt stay long because they were so afraid i would try it again that any sound i made in my room and they came running to check on me.
Side story is, my mom dreamt about this happening 2 months before it did. I even remember waking up that night to hearing my mom crying in the living room and talking to my dad and saying "my boy was just hanging there, he was dead" over and over.
My dad told me she dreamed it after it had all happened and he calmed down.
It was only then that i knew what even happened that night she was crying because i never asked.

So what came out of all that?
Everything. I would have missed EVERYTHING. The bad times have come and gone and they ALWAYS come and go. And no matter how bad it gets, i know i will never come to that conclusion again. Because i would have missed so much.
I have a family now, two beautiful kids like i always dreamed. I am nothing like my father which was something i always feared would happen, im there for my kids at all times...which i guess comes from raising my brothers and sister.
Im not an alcoholic and i rarely ever drink. Im always home when im not working. Ive made many friends and built many great memories over the years.
I own my own house, and struggle with bills everyday. But i wouldnt trade it for anything.
I made ammends with all those whom i had issues with in the past.
And its all because i am here today.
Committing suicide is not a solution, its not a freedom of burden, but a massive addition of burden to those who surround you. And no matter how much you think they dont care and would not care if you are gone, They do care, and they would be destroyed.
Sadly it took me nearly losing my life to learn that.
And in the end, i was 100% fucking wrong in that choice.

My only issue now as an adult is i am living my childhood late. I have my own game room i spend all day gaming in, and i just goof and joke around like i dont have a care in the world. My wife even gets pissed because she says i need to grow up and act like a man some times, but...i cant. And i dont take that as a bad thing. Being a kid at 24 is much better, cause i can buy my own toys XD

 

[Miruyasha]

I find this threads title ironic.

"philosophy of suicide".

Philosophy's goal is to find logic and reason within a given issue.
Suicide is illogical and has no (sound) reasoning behind it.

Suicide just puts more burden on those around you; it doesn't take any of it away. It took me nearly losing my life as well (speaking about Chasym) to learn that it wasn't worth it and I couldn't bring myself to put so much hurt on those around me.

I've always said the meaning of life is to give life meaning. No ones going to tell you "This is what your life SHOULD be", you have to make it for yourself. Your entire life from birth to death (when nature decides it) is a story. No one likes when a story ends right in the middle, especially during the best parts, so why would life be any different?

Before my gf and I were going out we were fairly good friends. I found out she had been cutting and once I did, I did everything I could to get her to stop. Every time I saw her with a new wound it was like I had been cut as well. It's been stated already, but its a slap in the face to everyone who wants to help you. I got her to stop (obviously) and even though others saw it, I was the only one who did anything.

Suicide is NEVER an option (except in the cases Daveman pointed out).