pld main hate ?

At really low levels, you're relying primarily on your melee damage, voke, Cure (with a very limited MP pool) and occasionally Shield Bash (which *is* a nice little hate boost, recast notwithstanding, so use it when needed). As you get higher you get better cures, Sentinel, Cover & Auto-Refresh, Flash, and eventually Rampart. Plus subjob stuff, primarily Provoke of course, Berserk (small hate spike, but also useful as a damage increase for WS - and in the case of things that hit *too* weakly, like mandys, lowers your defense so you take damage fast enough to be able to cure reasonably often) and later Defender (not so much for a hate spike as for turtling).

Life becomes very easy when you get Flash. Unless you're killing super *super* fast, you'll be able to Flash every single mob as it's coming in (and if kills are extra slow, you can Flash again and still have it be ready for the next mob). Before that, I personally tried to alternate Shield Bash and Sentinel from one mob to the next, though of course if you're killing at a halfway decent speed there'll be mobs for which you use neither. (Do not, however, leave either of them sitting unused.) Voke every 30 seconds (don't be one of those nubs who only vokes when they lose hate) unless the mob is almost dead, in which case don't voke, so you'll be able to voke the next mob.

Use an appropriate level cure based on how injured you are (figure out how much HP something cures, figure out how low your current HP must be to get the full healing from that, and don't let your HP get significantly lower than that before firing off that cure), managing your MP well enough that you can last, if not perpetually, at least through a chain before running out of MP. Juices are very handy at low levels; less crucial after 35, and even less so as you get higher (RDM refresh at 41, Parade Gorget at 50, Sanction refresh below 85% MP in ToAU areas).

Be sure your healers understand that provided your MP pool is healthy, you'd rather *you* cured yourself than *they* cured you. Believe it or not, this is one of the bigger problems you'll run into with hate - a lot of your hate comes from self-curing which is screwed up by overachieving healers. Suggest that they primarily Regen you unless you get hurt/interrupted a lot or your MP is low. (At higher levels with a WHM, try to get one who can use their own Flash - after yours of course - to help you get off uninterrupted cures.)

Be sure to have <stpc> versions of cures (rather than just <me> versions) so you can cure *other* party members for hate too, as needed. <stpc> also lets you have better control over the timing of self-cures. My casual observation (take with some salt) is that hate by curing is based (in addition to how much is cured of course) on how much hate the target being cured has. If someone else steals hate and gets hit, *they* are the highest-hate person, and are a better choice to cure than yourself. (Unless, of course, you're nearly dead. There are reasons to cure besides hate, after all.)

At lower levels, if it's not too big a hit to your survivability, wear gear with good melee damage stats (primarily att and a little STR at those levels, maybe a little acc or DEX but there aren't many acc options for a while). You do have an A+ in your sword: use it, and be sure to pick swords with good damage output. Don't be a lowbie sushi-eating nub (15% of a small base acc number is a tiny increase from sushi), but depending on what you fight, melee meat food may serve you better than tank defense food.

Point being, when you don't have many hate tools and (relative to at higher levels) a healthy portion of your hate comes from damage output, and when there's not too big a difference between playing damage dealer and playing tank ... play damage dealer. More damage you do, easier it is to hold hate. As you get higher and have more hate tools that don't depend on your damage output, shifting gradually to turtle mode is effective, though it's still worth using a few choice melee pieces such as Life Belt.

If you use enmity gear, leave it on full-time. This has already been discussed in this thread.

Oh, and keep your shield capped. Use a smaller shield (which procs more) if you're falling behind on your shield skillups.
 
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Passions said:
Ill have to do some testing of this because that's not how I've always belived it to work. Not saying it isn't I can be wrong, been wrong before but at most at least ill need to research that and do some testing. Good to know I would need to test the theory though.
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Catoblepas is where I first noticed it...then began my research.

SC occured, huge MB off of the light SC, catoblepas ran after Crosis, then turned back to me before reaching him and without hitting him...

Just an FYI you need 2 but preferably 3 equally equipped+merited people to test this, eliminating as many variables as possible.

Have one person (control) begin voking with enmity gear equipped (rarabs work) to build a hate base. After 3-4 vokes, have the second person begin voking and first person stopping. (in your example, with enmity+ voke macros). Record the time it takes to stabalize hate, not just turn, but stabalize (not turning back).
Then try with the Enmity+ always equipped. Have the control person begin voking again, for the exact same amount of time and vokes. Begin the second person with enmity always equipped start. Note the time it takes to stabalize hate.

Repeat each test at least 20 times. Then, increase the hate hold on the control, bumping it up to 5-6 vokes, then 7-8, then 9-10.
 
So if I'm understanding this correct. +enm being kept on helps hold the hate that is gradually decaying away? Now that I kinda think about it that would make a little sence if I'm understanding it correctly
 
That is a fantastic primer on how to play paladin, Vilurum. Kudos!
 
Vilurum said:
At really low levels, you're relying primarily on your melee damage, voke, Cure (with a very limited MP pool) and occasionally Shield Bash (which *is* a nice little hate boost, recast notwithstanding, so use it when needed). As you get higher you get better cures, Sentinel, Cover & Auto-Refresh, Flash, and eventually Rampart. Plus subjob stuff, primarily Provoke of course, Berserk (small hate spike, but also useful as a damage increase for WS - and in the case of things that hit *too* weakly, like mandys, lowers your defense so you take damage fast enough to be able to cure reasonably often) and later Defender (not so much for a hate spike as for turtling).

Life becomes very easy when you get Flash. Unless you're killing super *super* fast, you'll be able to Flash every single mob as it's coming in (and if kills are extra slow, you can Flash again and still have it be ready for the next mob). Before that, I personally tried to alternate Shield Bash and Sentinel from one mob to the next, though of course if you're killing at a halfway decent speed there'll be mobs for which you use neither. (Do not, however, leave either of them sitting unused.) Voke every 30 seconds (don't be one of those nubs who only vokes when they lose hate) unless the mob is almost dead, in which case don't voke, so you'll be able to voke the next mob.

Use an appropriate level cure based on how injured you are (figure out how much HP something cures, figure out how low your current HP must be to get the full healing from that, and don't let your HP get significantly lower than that before firing off that cure), managing your MP well enough that you can last, if not perpetually, at least through a chain before running out of MP. Juices are very handy at low levels; less crucial after 35, and even less so as you get higher (RDM refresh at 41, Parade Gorget at 50, Sanction refresh below 85% MP in ToAU areas).

Be sure your healers understand that provided your MP pool is healthy, you'd rather *you* cured yourself than *they* cured you. Believe it or not, this is one of the bigger problems you'll run into with hate - a lot of your hate comes from self-curing which is screwed up by overachieving healers. Suggest that they primarily Regen you unless you get hurt/interrupted a lot or your MP is low. (At higher levels with a WHM, try to get one who can use their own Flash - after yours of course - to help you get off uninterrupted cures.)

Be sure to have <stpc> versions of cures (rather than just <me> versions) so you can cure *other* party members for hate too, as needed. <stpc> also lets you have better control over the timing of self-cures. My casual observation (take with some salt) is that hate by curing is based (in addition to how much is cured of course) on how much hate the target being cured has. If someone else steals hate and gets hit, *they* are the highest-hate person, and are a better choice to cure than yourself. (Unless, of course, you're nearly dead. There are reasons to cure besides hate, after all.)

At lower levels, if it's not too big a hit to your survivability, wear gear with good melee damage stats (primarily att and a little STR at those levels, maybe a little acc or DEX but there aren't many acc options for a while). You do have an A+ in your sword: use it, and be sure to pick swords with good damage output. Don't be a lowbie sushi-eating nub (15% of a small base acc number is a tiny increase from sushi), but depending on what you fight, melee meat food may serve you better than tank defense food.

Point being, when you don't have many hate tools and (relative to at higher levels) a healthy portion of your hate comes from damage output, and when there's not too big a difference between playing damage dealer and playing tank ... play damage dealer. More damage you do, easier it is to hold hate. As you get higher and have more hate tools that don't depend on your damage output, shifting gradually to turtle mode is effective, though it's still worth using a few choice melee pieces such as Life Belt.

If you use enmity gear, leave it on full-time. This has already been discussed in this thread.

Oh, and keep your shield capped. Use a smaller shield (which procs more) if you're falling behind on your shield skillups.
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There is a reason I'm going to duo my pld and whm together, which is so I can alternate my cures and flashes in perfect sync. I understand the cure caps after lvling whm mulitple times and from rdm. Also I know to voke mash I learned that trying to keep hate on ninja from mnks :D. I'm not to concerned about getting a rotation down and holding hate later on, it was mostly a "concern" in dunes/jungles. I've only had 2 dunes partys so far and I'm pretty sure the mnk was voking off me in one of them. I definatly got the answer to my original question and that was that at 37 (odd how that works ninja got easier and more enjoyable then as well) your able to stabalize your hate easier.


Lots of fun in play for me ahead it looks like, I definatly enjoy a tanking role just looking to broaden my horizon.
 
Passions said:
There is a reason I'm going to duo my pld and whm together, which is so I can alternate my cures and flashes in perfect sync. I understand the cure caps after lvling whm mulitple times and from rdm. Also I know to voke mash I learned that trying to keep hate on ninja from mnks :D. I'm not to concerned about getting a rotation down and holding hate later on, it was mostly a "concern" in dunes/jungles. I've only had 2 dunes partys so far and I'm pretty sure the mnk was voking off me in one of them. I definatly got the answer to my original question and that was that at 37 (odd how that works ninja got easier and more enjoyable then as well) your able to stabalize your hate easier.


Lots of fun in play for me ahead it looks like, I definatly enjoy a tanking role just looking to broaden my horizon.
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Well in the dunes a mnk could easily take hate if they have decent gear and boost every 15secs. Add a voke in there and it's easy money to pull hate.

Peace,
Shmed
 
It starts to get really tough on lesser colibri in the upper 50s. However, if you actually cure others, you should be able to maintain hate.

I know curing others is a big hassle because you have to use <stnpc>, but it's better than just letting others tank.
 
Jojojo said:
It starts to get really tough on lesser colibri in the upper 50s. However, if you actually cure others, you should be able to maintain hate.

I know curing others is a big hassle because you have to use <stnpc>, but it's better than just letting others tank.
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I mainly tanked Lesser's from 52-60ish. The only time I had troubles was when 1) a Ranger would get over zealous and rip hate by non stop shooting, 2) a DD would be a dumbass and WS before I've even voked once, or 3) The healer in the party wouldn't give me room to cure myself.

Ranger's are truly evil on those things. Especially the ones that think doing Barrage at the start of the fight is a cool thing to do.

Remember curing others will get you hate, but not nearly as much as curing yourself, but it will help. The best option, of course, is Cover if it's up. Use it, and have it on an <stpc> macro with a /p line in that macro stating the use of Cover and their name by using <lastst>. This will help them know they are being covered and to keep their ass behind you. This doesn't get you hate back from using it but it does give you a reason to cure yourself.

Peace,
Shmed
 
i dont particularly like the idea of waisting mp curing others in the party to gain hate. luckly though, i will have the option at those lvls of choosing who will be curing my pld... me on pld or me on whm MY DESCION(SP)!!!! :D and shm, you should know me well enough. if someone wants to play nOOb with me ill just kickem to the dirt and grab someone that wont be a retard. Generally its thfs that piss me off that bad though.
 
Passions said:
i dont particularly like the idea of waisting mp curing others in the party to gain hate. luckly though, i will have the option at those lvls of choosing who will be curing my pld... me on pld or me on whm MY DESCION(SP)!!!! :D and shm, you should know me well enough. if someone wants to play nOOb with me ill just kickem to the dirt and grab someone that wont be a retard. Generally its thfs that piss me off that bad though.
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If your going to be playing pld to 75, get used to it(bolded part). Once you hit 65ish, it can be very hard to hold hate against all the war's, rng's, sam's, ect. If all your JA timers happen to be down and the War unleashes a Rampage before you've even got your second voke off, you'll be turned into a back up healer real quick, until you can get some JA's back and get the mobs attention again, lol. You'll do fine though, as you lvl'd NIN first, which should make holding hate on PLD that much easier for you.
 
The absolute best hate grip you'll ever have on pld is soloing level 1 to 9 :p

If I were pld and the monk in the pt was voking and boosting, I'd probably ask him if he wanted to tank. Maybe he was a WAR and was just playing what he knew as a newbie WAR tank.

I love playing pld. The hardest transition is going from trying to max out your hate all the time everywhere to learning how to dance with hate for certain situations.

It's great to see pld/nin become a viable end-game tank; just gotta polish the rust off the old shield and get back to leveling it ^^;
 
PLD, in the early levels, is all about timing. Your hate routine is everything. I'm glad they don't give PLD Flash until 37 because it forces you to learn the basics of your job before you start getting the really - no pun intended - flashy hate tools.

You're hate routine should be built to both establish and maintain hate. When you start out, you begin with the most simple routine because you have limited tools. Then you make it more elaborate as you gain abilities.

Starting with each provoke cycle (30 seconds), you interspace cures and other job abilities at equal spacing between the 'vokes or as needed based on what the mob does.

At lv 10, it should look like this:
Provoke - 1 or 2 Cure Is - Provoke

Simple. This is where you learn how to time your cures and space out your MP to last the whole fight.

When you first get shield bash, you typically save it to stun a gob bomb or to regain hate when you lose it. You only incorporate it into a hate routine when you have an opposing 5 minute timer against which to balance it.

As you get each successive cure, you will then ramp up your cures to garner the most hate. Sometimes a nice big cure on the puller as he returns (if he's taken damage) is a great way to start a fight. However, curing yourself always grants you the most hate. You also have to gain a sense of MP management so that you're not holding back the party. It usually takes a few levels between when you first learn a new cure and when you can start using it regularly in a hate routine. At first you'll just use Cure II when you really need it or when you see that it will give you a hate advantage. Eventually, you'll switch to Cure II as your primary cure, and never use Cure I in your hate routine again. The same applies to Cure III. Cure IV will never be your primary hate routine cure spell - it will always be your emergency spell or your MUST GRAB HATE NOW spell. Nothing gets a mob's attention back better than a Flash + Cure IV on the offending BLM that ripped hate.

Lv 30:

When you get Sentinel, you can now balance your 5 minute timers.

Provoke - Shield Bash - Provoke - 1/2 Cures - Provoke

alternated with (on the next fight)

Provoke - Sentinel - Provoke - 1/2 Cures - Provoke

Hate is like voting; you want to do it early and often. Always use your best hate abilities up front. Sentinel used to be roughly the same hate as shield bash with only a +def bonus, but now it gives -dmg and +enmity while it's up, so it pays to fire it and then do a cure and a provoke before it wears.

At lv 30, you can now go a provoke cycle without curing, or without curing as much because your staggered JAs in the hate cycle give you a hate boost without burning MP. This gives you more capability of conserving MP in those critical levels before you finally have a RDM with refresh (because let's face it, most BRDs won't party with you). You also get Cover at this level, which helps when you have a slap-happy DD or a BLM who does not know the meaning of restraint. Usually the element-weak mandragoras smack it into BLMs in the jungles, but not always.

Lv 37 - hallelujah, the mother of all hate tools, flash:

Provoke/Flash - Sentinel (alternate with Shield Bash) - Provoke - Flash - Provoke - Provoke/Flash and interspace cures when you need them

Provoke is every 30s, Flash every 45s. You want to fire as soon as the timers are up to maximize hate. The great part about post-37 life is that it allows your cures to become supplementary hate tools, maintaining hate instead of generating it. Follow this routine and cure when you need it/have the MP. Only 4 more levels until refresh and you won't have to meter your MP as carefully anymore.

Lv 50

You get Defender - whether or not you want to keep it up depends on your gear and the mob you're facing, but it's another tool in your arsenal.

As you get Rampart and later Warcry, it gives you now a total of 4 hate gaining JAs to space between fights. Depending on the length of the fights and the hate requirements, you can either do this for long fights with high hate requirements:

Provoke/Flash - Warcry(alternate with Rampart) - Provoke - Flash - Provoke - Shield Bash (alternate with Sentinel) - Provoke/Flash

or you can do this for short flights with low hate requirements:

Provoke/Flash - Warcry (alternate with 3 other JAs) - Provoke - Flash - Provoke - Cures as needed - Provoke/Flash

Keep in mind that with all hate routines, you always cure when you need it and have the MP. JAs gain hate, curing maintains it. With enough refresh (and weak-hitting mobs) it is entirely possible for a PLD to cure himself. You can then replace the WHM with a quasi WHM (SMN or RDM) to buff/debuff and cure you in emergencies only.

Enmity gear comes in two forms - static and macroed. Static is gear you always wear that grants enmity. Notable pieces include:

Grudge Sword
Gluttony Sword
Parade Cuirass
AF/AF2/AF+1

They give you the most enmity as they modify every action you take.

Macroed enmity is meant to increase the "spiked" hate you get when you use a JA or Cure yourself or someone else. You never want to make macroed enmity pieces be something that is visible because the "blink" that happens when you change visible gear can screw up mage targetting. You *don't* want to miss that Cure V because your WHM lost target. There is a lot of good enmity gear you can get, however, that doesn't require visible gear changes: Mermaid Ring, Hercules' Ring, Hateful Collar, Dash Sash, etc.

How much you macro is up to you. I found it very difficult to do multiple gear swap macros (like DD weapon skill gear swaps where they change almost everything you wear) because of the sheer number of JAs we use per fight. Using the standard macros of FFXI, you can change two pieces of gear, use a JA or do a cure, and change back with a single macro.

JAs look like this:
Equip Line 1
Equip Line 2
Wait (wait time depends on JA-time it to see what works)
JA (flash falls here too)
Equip Line 1
Equip Line 2

Cure Spells work like this (you can only change one piece on these):
/ma "Cure X" <me>
wait (time depends on spell)
Equip Line 1
wait (time depends on spell)
Equip Line 1

You want to see the gear swap line in your log before the cure animation starts and after it finishes.

Depending on your level, you can get +2 to +5 enmity added each time you do a JA or cast Flash just by using such macros. This makes a HUGE difference in your overall hate picture.
 
In normal exp parties where fight tend to be short, it's better for PLD to spread their hate tools in different fight. For example,
Fight#1 Flash Provoke, Rampart, Flash Provoke
Fight#2 Flash Provoke, Warcry (if you are 75) , Flash Provke
Fight#3 Flash Provoke, Shield Bash, CureIV, Flash Provoke
Fight#4 Flash Provoke, Sentinel, Flash Provoke (I like to use Sentinel much later to give me time to get mp back, your mp should be low by this fight if you are actually using your mp)
Fight#5 Flash Provoke, Spirits Within , Flash Provoke (Depending on your gears and playstyle, you may use different ws for hate but in general SW is good hate spike tools till higher lvl i think, i've seen PLD dished out constant 500-600 Vorpal Blade at lvl68-70 ;D. )
Fight#6, If hate tools ain't ready, you can use CureIV to get hate till they are ready, then rinse and repeat.

The sequence is not fixed, i just use the tools that is available and appropriate depending on how my party is doing , eg mp.

Don't waste all your hate tools in one fight unless it's necessary otherwise you will be unable to get hate back from DD after that...

Oh, and always remember the forgotten ability of PLD, Cover, use them and love them.
 
Nycon said:
You'll do fine though, as you lvl'd NIN first, which should make holding hate on PLD that much easier for you.
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Not trying to bait, but he may have bought the acct already with a 75 NIN.
 
hmmm, been a while since i was that low, but i'll give it a shot ^^; In the dunes, what i did (Elvaan PLD mind you) is every 3rd hit of the mob (ie: iwas almost spamming it on myself) i would use a Cure 1 spell on myself. with the small damage, and provoke and the constant 28-30 hp from cures I don't recall loosing hate to anyone around that level. As long as the WHM in the party isn't spamming onyou as well, you should be ok. Your also a Taru, so tech. you'll take more damage than i did, but have a greater MP pool... So Like someone said before, Pineapple juices are your friend. Also, the update about resting and not loosing TP is extremely nice as well (it wasn't there back then ;_; ). Anyways, Pineapple juices, consistent curing yourself, and provoking every 30 seconds will hold hate fine until 37 and flash. Try to time out your JA's (other than provoke and defender) so they go off at more of a % (ie: if you have Shield Bash, Sentential, Rampart, Warcry, they are all 5 min recast, so fire them off roughly every min or so). I never really had a problem with hate at that level, until my static starting fighting in KRT with our monk going All out damage -_- Monk + BS gear + x2 Damage on bones = Cover being the MNK's new best friend. ^^;

Remember, being a good PLD isn't just holding hate, it's knowing the balance... A good DD will try to stay under that balance.

also, gridlocking hate isn't always a great thing against some mobs... If you can't loose hate when it counts and cure yourself up to near full... (you'll get hate back :P not 'that' hard ;) ) you'll be doing the party less good as a skid mark on the ground because more than likely, they will be following. ^^;

edit: ----

oh! just noticed what Celvantes said about 1 or 2 cures = a voke. That is and isn't true. Remember just the cure spell alone isn't hate building... it's how much HP you actually cure, which is why everyone says spot heal the others in the group if the main healer is cure bombing you :P

Back up healing is good for some decent hate especially post 30 if you have a thf. for example. WAR THF and PLD set up.

THF pulls, and brings to camp (say mob gets a hit in on way), Throw out a cure 1 or 2, then by time for the SATA, WAR may have taken a hit or two, While They are SATAing, throw out another cure on WAR. Then the SATA is fired off, and you voke/flash etc. This does alot in terms of hate. the 2 cures you do almost equal a voke at that level. Also, this allows your WHM to rest a slight bit longer if needed, gives you an early edge in focusing hate, and so on...

These are all tricks and things i've done and worked well for me ^^; so don't take this as 'law'...

Also, to add to that list of static armors and such, is the Durandel. Same as the Gluttony sword with none of the bad sides, and a +1 to your growing hate pool.

Not sure if mentioned, but a good shield is always nice. with all the updates, a smaller shield may work out better than a larger shield, since block rate is usually > than % at the lower levels. Kite shield and Aegis being the two larger shields with the best balance of both.

So yep, there is my input ^^ and happy tanking!
 
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Ean said:
oh! just noticed what Celvantes said about 1 or 2 cures = a voke. That is and isn't true. Remember just the cure spell alone isn't hate building... it's how much HP you actually cure, which is why everyone says spot heal the others in the group if the main healer is cure bombing you :P
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Nono, I meant voke, then 1 or 2 cures (depending on cure level) then voke again. The "-" denotes time in the hate cycle.

If they ever publish what the actual enmity numbers are, I'd like very much to see how many cures of what magnitude = 1 voke. I'd suspect that a Cure IV which heals the full amount of HP possible would be equivalent.

Also, to add to that list of static armors and such, is the Durandel. Same as the Gluttony sword with none of the bad sides, and a +1 to your growing hate pool.

Not sure if mentioned, but a good shield is always nice. with all the updates, a smaller shield may work out better than a larger shield, since block rate is usually > than % at the lower levels. Kite shield and Aegis being the two larger shields with the best balance of both.
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Durandal is nice, but the stat bonuses it offers are quickly eclipsed by the hate you'll get from the sheer number of hits from a Joyeuse. Even the additional damage from a Company Sword is better if you don't need the additional VIT from Durandal. I only keep mine for straight tanking big NMs, and even then I'll replace it if I ever get a Hauteclaire.

You are absolutely right about shield. There are 4 shield classes (Buckler, Round, Heater, Tower). The smaller the shield the higher the block percentage, but the lower the damage reduction and vice-versa. Short of Aegis (which carries damage reduction of a Tower but the block percentage of a buckler, roughly), your best bet is the Heater shield class. The first you can get is the Kite Shield and the best is the Koenig Shield (unless you *really* want to spring for a Kaiser).

I pays to have a good small shield (Musketeer Commander's Shield was my favorite) to equip right after you level so that you raise your shield skill as quickly as possible. Then, switch back to your "big" shield.
 
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I have basically done the same between my two chars from lvl 40-60, pld and whm. I'm lvlling pld on my other char, it's at 60 now, and whm on my main char. Using both in the pty is nice as you plan to do, although I'm thinking of stopping whm on Chrono at 60 and continue with my other char alone that way I get a better feel at really doing the job, that and it's less work and I don't care much to get whm to 75 yet.

I have tried various things with my pld though, balancing the JAs throughout each chain is nice, and somehow I got into the habit of using sentinel and defender both at the same time too, and that would often get me hit with less than 10 hp for one or two hits from an IT mob.

Btw, my other char is a tarutaru female pld, so it's nice to have all that extra mp to cure and such, and she keeps hate quite nicely as well. I'd normally voke and flash, or flash when my hp is somewhat low enough to use my biggest cure with the chance of the mob missing so that I keep better hate. Then I might use one JA about 50% or so of the mob's HP, and voke whenever it's ready.

After sometime, it's all pretty much the same repetition like most jobs, but it can be fun trying to get the monster to attack just you and no one else.
 
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