PLD Pro's and Con's, negating weaknesses and how to improve further your strengths

[jamal]

From my perspective, a PLD has two glaring weaknesses due to game mechanics:

1. All the defense in the world means nothing when fighting mobs 10+ lvls above you
2. Magic Spells can hurt you even more than physical attacks

However, in the past few years (and even further for #1) their have been additions to help with these problems:

1. 1. Subjob choice. For mobs that can be slowed and elegied, /nin helps negate quite a bit of damage. For those that can't, /rdm provides a stable defensive point as well as further hate tools
2. MDB gear is usually a safe bet to reduce dmg, as well as -% down. However, if fighting a strictly one element based mob, elemental resist will always fare better

List other weaknesses and ways to improve as well as strengths and ways to make stronger here.

 

[Raesvelg]

PLD/NINs run into problems with hate generation at times, sadly. Though Sentinel and other abilities can provide good spikes in volatile enmity, continual enmity is pretty elusive. Basically just Flash, which provides relatively little CE. Part of the reason NIN/DRK became popular was because of the high CE/VE spells available to DRK.

Rectifying the problem is basically impossible; no combination of gear will give you more CE generation. Mostly you just try very hard to maintain high levels of VE, while avoiding taking damage as much as possible.

 

[Zephayra]

What I have a hard time with is having DD work with me as a tank, rather than against me. I have a specific order I like to use my hate tools in, based on recast times. It is very difficult to pull hate off a DD that JA + WS after I have used a hate tool,and then I have to clamor to get hate back, either by popping more Hate Tools, and thus not having the timers ready in time for the next spike of enmity, or having to wait on Provoke/Flash while trying to cure bomb hate back to me.

Maybe I am just doing it wrong.

What I like to do is Provoke, wait thirty seconds, then Flash, and once the mob is no longer blind, Provoke is usually back up. I try to use just one of Sentinel/Rampart/Defender during EXP parties, but for Endgame mobs, I try to keep them spaced out so I can pop one of the three to continue to keep, or take back hate.

Any advice is always greatly appreciated.

 

[Arthur]

What I have a hard time with is having DD work with me as a tank, rather than against me. I have a specific order I like to use my hate tools in, based on recast times. It is very difficult to pull hate off a DD that JA + WS after I have used a hate tool,and then I have to clamor to get hate back, either by popping more Hate Tools, and thus not having the timers ready in time for the next spike of enmity, or having to wait on Provoke/Flash while trying to cure bomb hate back to me.

Maybe I am just doing it wrong.

What I like to do is Provoke, wait thirty seconds, then Flash, and once the mob is no longer blind, Provoke is usually back up. I try to use just one of Sentinel/Rampart/Defender during EXP parties, but for Endgame mobs, I try to keep them spaced out so I can pop one of the three to continue to keep, or take back hate.

Any advice is always greatly appreciated.

Hmmm i think waiting for thirty seconds to flash is a bit to much. Usually what I do is save flash for when ever a DD or someone gets hate/does an ability that might ready them to get hate. Maybe you could try that or do flash every 15secs?

 

[Ecks]

I would always start with Flash as an initial hate pulling tool, followed by provoke with minor emnity+ gear swaps. On any job I'm simply not a fan of gear swaps, I would much rather perfer one gear set with minor swaps to improve aspects. Such is the way I play.

After the initial Flash+Voke, I voke when the timer is up, and if hate is pulled while voke time is down there is ofcourse our other hate tools. Shield Bash, Sentinal (granted I use this only when really needed, since it has such an imediate +emnity aspect) while also using flash when timers are up as well as the obvious fact of healing your own injuries with magic.

I personally find pld to be a great long term tank, but in short term fights where damage is just massively piled on, it can be extremely hard to keep hate, if not impossible.

 

[Caerloc]

PLD/NINs run into problems with hate generation at times, sadly. Though Sentinel and other abilities can provide good spikes in volatile enmity, continual enmity is pretty elusive. Basically just Flash, which provides relatively little CE. Part of the reason NIN/DRK became popular was because of the high CE/VE spells available to DRK.

Rectifying the problem is basically impossible; no combination of gear will give you more CE generation. Mostly you just try very hard to maintain high levels of VE, while avoiding taking damage as much as possible.

You mean if you totally ignore the fact that Cure's accumulate both CE and VE?

 

[Raesvelg]

You mean if you totally ignore the fact that Cure's accumulate both CE and VE?

Problematically, if you're curing yourself, you've been taking damage, and losing CE. Ideally, enmity more than makes up the difference, but typically you're also not going to be able to cure yourself completely.

Curing other people is a good tool tho'. Just assumes they're taking damage for whatever reason, and that your WHMs (much like curing yourself) allow you to actually spend your MP.

And good lord you have an offensive style for entering a conversation.

 

[Caerloc]

Dont be to offended, i think its more of a language barrier then anything, even if i do get aggresive at times.

But this is where enmity gear comes into play alot. Alot of paladins think pld/nin is just a change of subjob, when in actuality its a totaly different playstyle with a totaly different gearset. I havent seen your gear setups, so im not gonna go into that. I could post what i use, and when if wanted, but ill start of with a few smal tips to solve the issue you where having.

Cure others. Even if noone else is taking dmg, blms always have their sorc ring latent, and cure them wether they like it or not. Its not alot of work for them to swap back, and it also provides you with another cure target. With Ballad2, refresh, autorefresh, paradegorget and possibly sanctionrefresh and ares body, you shouldnt just cure cause you have to, you shpould cure any and everything thats moving.

And if you cant find enough to cure, there is always this little gem.

input /ma "Cure III" <me>
input /equip ring1 "Bomb Queen Ring";
input /equip back "Gigant Mantle";
input /equip waist "Ocean Sash";
wait 5;
input /equip ring1 "Hercules' Ring";
input /equip back "Cerberus Mantle";
input /equip waist "Trance Belt";

allowing you to cure without taking dmg.

 

[Jakey]

Problematically, if you're curing yourself, you've been taking damage, and losing CE. Ideally, enmity more than makes up the difference, but typically you're also not going to be able to cure yourself completely.

Curing other people is a good tool tho'. Just assumes they're taking damage for whatever reason, and that your WHMs (much like curing yourself) allow you to actually spend your MP.

And good lord you have an offensive style for entering a conversation.

macroing in and out hp gear so you can heal yourself also seems to be growing in popularity, I don't do this since I find that there's always somone who needs a cure but it is another option.

yes if talking about merits and a few similar events if you have to go pld(don't really recomend it if you can avoid it) DDing is probably your best bet, I've actually been messing around with a DD set on pld for kicks recently, does ok but needs more work lol.

and to the earlier poster don't wait to use voke and flash.

 

[Raesvelg]

Aye, HP gear swaps can be useful, no doubt. It's something I've been using, though I need to improve my HP set a bit before it becomes truly efficient.

If you really want to be clever, also, you can carry around a "no-HP" set on you. Or a conversion set, but the concept remains the same. Swap to your null set, back to your HP/Enmity set, Cure IV. With some mobs that becomes a bit less practical tho'.

For the record, I have no issues holding hate on HNMs, lol.

 

[jamal]

Cure others. Even if noone else is taking dmg, blms always have their sorc ring latent, and cure them wether they like it or not. Its not alot of work for them to swap back, and it also provides you with another cure target. With Ballad2, refresh, autorefresh, paradegorget and possibly sanctionrefresh and ares body, you shouldnt just cure cause you have to, you shpould cure any and everything thats moving.

This is the biggest one I use. Most higher Tier NM's have some type of Aga, so you can usually spot a melee that has taken damage as well. Self-cures are nice, but curing others solidifies your own hate while still being able to keep your own dmg resistance/enmity sets in place. Don't forget devotion + chivalry, although I tend to not rely on devotion incase WHMs need to swap it with eachother.

 

[Zephayra]

Hmmm i think waiting for thirty seconds to flash is a bit to much. Usually what I do is save flash for when ever a DD or someone gets hate/does an ability that might ready them to get hate. Maybe you could try that or do flash every 15secs?

You mean initially wait 15 seconds >_> since flash is on a 1:30 timer, it;s not up every 15 seconds? Now that I think about it, my first post was wrong. I like to hit provoke, then wait 15 seconds, then flash, and then in 15 seconds provoke is up. I guess I was getting confused with timers there =/.

The only reason I like waiting between flash and provoke is because they are nice to have up with a DD pulls hate, instead of an immediate voke/flash or flash/voke. I preferably like to do a cycle of provoke/flash instead of saving them up.

I was under the impression that building hate/enmity should be continuous, rather than letting it wear off over ti,e. and that's why I've been doing a routine. Suppose a DD uses something that generates more hate than a paladin's hate tool. If the hate wasn't being built up, does that not make it more difficult to get back?

 

[Diabllos]

PLD/NIN > PLD/WAR. It's a topic that's been debated over and over again.

Edit:

The main usage for /WAR for me is Dynamis, although even said that I go /NIN for Xarcabard these days.

 

[jamal]

You mean initially wait 15 seconds >_> since flash is on a 1:30 timer, it;s not up every 15 seconds? Now that I think about it, my first post was wrong. I like to hit provoke, then wait 15 seconds, then flash, and then in 15 seconds provoke is up. I guess I was getting confused with timers there =/.

The only reason I like waiting between flash and provoke is because they are nice to have up with a DD pulls hate, instead of an immediate voke/flash or flash/voke. I preferably like to do a cycle of provoke/flash instead of saving them up.

I was under the impression that building hate/enmity should be continuous, rather than letting it wear off over ti,e. and that's why I've been doing a routine. Suppose a DD uses something that generates more hate than a paladin's hate tool. If the hate wasn't being built up, does that not make it more difficult to get back?

Flash timer is 45 seconds, and can be lessened greatly through haste. If you use at the start of a fight followed by Voke, you'll have both ready at nearly the same time and be able to load up on enmity. When Sentinel is ready, swing once at the mob then sentinel / flash. It's once per 4:10, but can really solidify hate easily if you know a skillchain is coming.

 

[Caerloc]

This is the biggest one I use. Most higher Tier NM's have some type of Aga, so you can usually spot a melee that has taken damage as well. Self-cures are nice, but curing others solidifies your own hate while still being able to keep your own dmg resistance/enmity sets in place. Don't forget devotion + chivalry, although I tend to not rely on devotion incase WHMs need to swap it with eachother.

The neat thing with curing melees is that not only are you keeping your own emnity up high, your keeping the support-mages enmity down. In an ideal 2-paladin tanking setup, they should be able to mainheal the entire alliance, baring back to back GoH or similar. Leaving the support to do na-spells, haste, refresh, debuffs, barspells and resting. Alot of paladins arent able to look outside their own party tho, some are even unable to take their eyes of their own hpbars.

 

[Caerloc]

PLD/NIN > PLD/WAR. It's a topic that's been debated over and over again.

No doubt in 99% of the cases, but there are better and worse ways to play pld/nin, wich is more or less what is being discussed at the moment.

 

[Raesvelg]

My biggest problem is finding WHMs that allow me to cure. With Reya it was never a problem, she knew exactly how much I could cure before I needed to conserve MP, with others... With others I frequently don't even get to cure myself, and they take offense when I tell them to scale back a bit.

 

[Caerloc]

That really is a whm issue, and if its in one of your static groups you probably have to make clear that that way doesnt work. If it is in pug events, i would rely heavy on my cureswap and ignore the whm all together.

But this problem is also often a product of newer groups not knowing any better and stacking like 3-4 whms in one alliance, with a few whms standing on the outside. These whms are gonna get bored, and when they get bored, they are gonna cure randomly.

Unless it is a extremely (and i do mean extremly) AoE heavy event, i never go with more then 1 whm in an alliance. Not only does it save spots for more usefull jobs, but it also really cuts back on the overcuring.

 

[Zephayra]

Flash timer is 45 seconds, and can be lessened greatly through haste. If you use at the start of a fight followed by Voke, you'll have both ready at nearly the same time and be able to load up on enmity. When Sentinel is ready, swing once at the mob then sentinel / flash. It's once per 4:10, but can really solidify hate easily if you know a skillchain is coming.

>< Why the hell was I thinking Flash was longer? Lately I haven't been using the Voke/Wait 15/Flash routine because I have not been involved in a standard party for awhile, so I guess I've been geting all mixed up, although that's a weak excuse and now I'm ashamed, lol.

Either way, this has all been very useful. Thanks.

Edit: Now that I'm done making myself look dumb; Flash/Voke go together indefinitely during the course of the fight, save for a Sentinel/Flash, or just for the initial grab? Or would Flash also be more effective paired with other hate tools, Rampart, for example?

 

[Dejan]

I think the only complaint i have is that i actually have to go as /nin. Almost everything in the game requires /nin, and that takes away a bit out of the whole magic if you ask me. I loved the times where pld/war could be a viable tank and all. The whole /nin thing makes it just... Eh for me. Makes every pld/nin equal really.

Also, KB should be done /war or /drk (!), and JoL should always be done /rdm. Those were the fights i loved the most, go figure.