PLD Pro's and Con's, negating weaknesses and how to improve further your strengths

[Caerloc]

Dont worry, ill get the picures, next time im online for a Tiamat. But now to simpler question you ignored, that you could answer in the meantime. Does your PLD's take as much damage as a BLM when not wearing any -% damage cut?

Edit: Went looking for other screenshots of about how much damage PLD with the right gear takes from tiamat, since i know we arent the only LS who actually tanks it that way.

This is done with Aegis, which has a slighly higher dmg-cut on blocked hits, but doesnt magically reduce the dmg on unblocked hits. The damage he takes isnt far at all from what i claimed myself. Critical hits for 50 anyone? Blocked hits for 19-30. I dont even know if this guy has a D.ring or any valhalla gear, or if he even has cappaed Phalanx 2 on for that matter. Point being, its not impossible to turn Tiamat into a sissy.

 

[Diabllos]

Sentinel?

 

[Grandphoenix]

I know sinus and them want me to just ask? lol

 

[Caerloc]

Sentinel?

Sentinel wouldnt give a 160 hit in between.

 

[Diabllos]

Sentinel wouldnt give a 160 hit in between.

Assuming the 160 is an unblocked attack with sentinel up and the others are blocked ones, it could have been Sentinel.

The critical hit being reduced so vastly to just 51 points towards being sentinel though (<10 seconds after activation), or magical stoneskin? He's getting Aerial armor which indicates a SMN is in his party, which could mean he's getting Stoneskin too. By asking for AA I can assume he's not /NIN, so he could quite likely be getting spammed blink/stoneskin.

I'm not saying it must be sentinel 100%, just seems hard to believe that you'd get a critical for just 51 damage without Sentinel or stoneskin. I haven't tanked Tiamat so I could be way off, but on Gods i've only seen similar numbers myself while sentinel has been active.

With all the -% damage reduction in the world, it caps at 50% in gear I believe, which means that the critical was "supposed" to be around 102 to a Paladin with no damage reduction gear (assuming this guy's damage reduction is capped, which i doubt), which still seems low.

 

[Bladewind]

Assuming the 160 is an unblocked attack with sentinel up and the others are blocked ones, it could have been Sentinel.

The critical hit being reduced so vastly to just 51 points towards being sentinel though (<10 seconds after activation), or magical stoneskin? He's getting Aerial armor which indicates a SMN is in his party, which could mean he's getting Stoneskin too. By asking for AA I can assume he's not /NIN, so he could quite likely be getting spammed blink/stoneskin.

I'm not saying it must be sentinel 100%, just seems hard to believe that you'd get a critical for just 51 damage without Sentinel or stoneskin. I haven't tanked Tiamat so I could be way off, but on Gods i've only seen similar numbers myself while sentinel has been active.

With all the -% damage reduction in the world, it caps at 50% in gear I believe, which means that the critical was "supposed" to be around 102 to a Paladin with no damage reduction gear (assuming this guy's damage reduction is capped, which i doubt), which still seems low.

This doesn't apply to shield blocks though, and if he has Aegis... it's not hard to see it happening.

 

[Redshift]

What about without sentinel and shield blocks? And the rest of the screenshot? lolaerialarmor

 

[Diabllos]

This doesn't apply to shield blocks though, and if he has Aegis... it's not hard to see it happening.

160 damage unblocked though? Let's say he's decked in everything damage reduction wise;

Main 7%
Head 5%
Body 5%
Ring 10%
Ring 5%
Feet 2%

= 34%

Works out (very roughly) to about 214 on a regular hit to someone without the damage reduction, i.e. a mage or melee. If my calculations are correct, mages/melees should take an average 214 from attacks- is that at all accurate? Again, i'm new to Tiamat here.

 

[Grandphoenix]

Was that picture taken back when shield was broken a few weeks ago perhaps ?

Eh looked it up myself
"05-Oct-2006 13:01" So some of the gear you guys are talking about wasn't even attainable then + forumulas are a bit different.

 

[Caerloc]

Assuming the 160 is an unblocked attack with sentinel up and the others are blocked ones, it could have been Sentinel.

The critical hit being reduced so vastly to just 51 points towards being sentinel though (<10 seconds after activation), or magical stoneskin? He's getting Aerial armor which indicates a SMN is in his party, which could mean he's getting Stoneskin too. By asking for AA I can assume he's not /NIN, so he could quite likely be getting spammed blink/stoneskin.

I'm not saying it must be sentinel 100%, just seems hard to believe that you'd get a critical for just 51 damage without Sentinel or stoneskin. I haven't tanked Tiamat so I could be way off, but on Gods i've only seen similar numbers myself while sentinel has been active.

With all the -% damage reduction in the world, it caps at 50% in gear I believe, which means that the critical was "supposed" to be around 102 to a Paladin with no damage reduction gear (assuming this guy's damage reduction is capped, which i doubt), which still seems low.

If sentinel was just activated that would mean that the 160 hit should have been 1600 with sentinel. Obviously a PLD doesnt take that amount of damage from a normal non-crit hit. And the critical isnt so vastly reduced, since they dont do all that much to beginn with. And also bear in mind that shieldblock reduction and physical dmg % cuts stacks. If you wear 25% damage reduction gear and block with an aegis a hit for 1000 dmg will first be reduced to 250 from aegis, then you subtract your gearcut wich is another 62 reducing the hit to 190. Then you have phalanx for another 30. Now a hit for 1000 has been reduced to 160. And a crit from Tiamat wont ever do 1000 to a PLD/RDM in defensive gear.

The problem is that you are buying into redshift nonsense about VIT and def gear not making any difference, all the while he wont even outright say that the BLM's in his shell takes like the double amount of dmg the PLD's geared for /nin does. So obviously Def and Vit makes a difference. As a PLD/NIN i have like 80 vit, tops and i cant even remember what def i have, but like 350 maybe. As a PLD/RDM or PLD/WAR I have 130 vit and 450 def totally unbuffed, There is a much larger difference between me and a PLD/NIN then there is between a PLD/NIN and a BLM. And my gear isnt nearly as good as Fyglas.

Also note that apparently that screen was from 2006, when alot of gear wasnt available. MY guess is that that guy is wearing just D.ring for physical damage cut.

 

[Tomasello]

If sentinel was just activated that would mean that the 160 hit should have been 1600 with sentinel.

....

Also note that apparently that screen was from 2006, when alot of gear wasnt available. MY guess is that that guy is wearing just D.ring for physical damage cut.

The effect of Sentinel was changed from an increase in defense to straight damage mitigation in Dec 2006. If that screenshot was from Oct 2006, Sentinel wouldn't of done anything to affect the numbers like that.

 

[Caerloc]

The effect of Sentinel was changed from an increase in defense to straight damage mitigation in Dec 2006. If that screenshot was from Oct 2006, Sentinel wouldn't of done anything to affect the numbers like that.

Haha, i couldnt remember when that happened. But thanks, that even further proves my point.

 

[Diabllos]

If sentinel was just activated that would mean that the 160 hit should have been 1600 with sentinel. Obviously a PLD doesnt take that amount of damage from a normal non-crit hit. And the critical isnt so vastly reduced, since they dont do all that much to beginn with. And also bear in mind that shieldblock reduction and physical dmg % cuts stacks. If you wear 25% damage reduction gear and block with an aegis a hit for 1000 dmg will first be reduced to 250 from aegis, then you subtract your gearcut wich is another 62 reducing the hit to 190. Then you have phalanx for another 30. Now a hit for 1000 has been reduced to 160. And a crit from Tiamat wont ever do 1000 to a PLD/RDM in defensive gear.

The problem is that you are buying into redshift nonsense about VIT and def gear not making any difference, all the while he wont even outright say that the BLM's in his shell takes like the double amount of dmg the PLD's geared for /nin does. So obviously Def and Vit makes a difference. As a PLD/NIN i have like 80 vit, tops and i cant even remember what def i have, but like 350 maybe. As a PLD/RDM or PLD/WAR I have 130 vit and 450 def totally unbuffed, There is a much larger difference between me and a PLD/NIN then there is between a PLD/NIN and a BLM. And my gear isnt nearly as good as Fyglas.

Also note that apparently that screen was from 2006, when alot of gear wasnt available. MY guess is that that guy is wearing just D.ring for physical damage cut.

Sentinel doesn't reduce damage by 100% for the duration. It starts at 100% (only with Valor leggings) and stays so for about 5~ seconds, before declining to about 50% and wearing off. Without the leggings it starts at 90% damage reduction. I.e. a hit of 160 about 10 seconds after activation is easily doable.

There's nothing to "buy" from Redshift here. Of course VIT and DEF have some bearing on damage taken or they wouldn't be in the game in the first place. I do understand the limitations of stacking VIT and DEF on HNMs though, and the power of /NIN over other subs. Regardless of whether /WAR or /RDM can work, it's difficult to beat /NIN in terms of overall tanking efficiency.

It isn't proven that the screenshot is from 2006, so for now we can't really make any assumptions on it. We don't even know if this guy had stoneskin up, or Sentinel, or if it's from 2002 or 2008.

I'm not saying it can't be possible, but I find it hard to believe especially based on a single incomplete screenshot. Provide some more pictures, maybe the gear this guy was using and what buffs he had, or some screenies from Fygla.

 

[Grandphoenix]

Yes it was proven I proved it..

http://www.shardofapathy.com/sinus/

Look at tiamat.PNG

 

[Moink]

It isn't proven that the screenshot is from 2006, so for now we can't really make any assumptions on it. We don't even know if this guy had stoneskin up, or Sentinel, or if it's from 2002 or 2008.

He's taking damage more then one time throughout the SS, there is no Stoneskin up... :crazy:

 

[Diabllos]

Yes it was proven I proved it..

http://www.shardofapathy.com/sinus/

Look at tiamat.PNG

Alright, thanks for clearing that up.

He's taking damage more then one time throughout the SS, there is no Stoneskin up... :crazy:

And yeah, that's right. My mistake.

However:

Sentinel doesn't reduce damage by 100% for the duration. It starts at 100% (only with Valor leggings) and stays so for about 5~ seconds, before declining to about 50% and wearing off. Without the leggings it starts at 90% damage reduction. I.e. a hit of 160 about 10 seconds after activation is easily doable.

When exactly was the change in Sentinel? I can't find any information about when it was updated.

Also:

I'm not saying it can't be possible, but I find it hard to believe especially based on a single incomplete screenshot.

 

[Grandphoenix]

If you look at his other SS's he has random pics of him taking minimal dmg so I think you're all just flamebaiting the hell out of each other heh.

 

[Diabllos]

If you look at his other SS's he has random pics of him taking minimal dmg so I think you're all just flamebaiting the hell out of each other heh.

Nobody's flamebaiting, unless i'm misunderstanding someone somewhere.

Also, they could be a lot of really great pictures of sentinel.

 

[Grandphoenix]

Not you but some people slinging poo at each other in here lol.

 

[Redshift]

The problem is that you are buying into redshift nonsense about VIT and def gear not making any difference, all the while he wont even outright say that the BLM's in his shell takes like the double amount of dmg the PLD's geared for /nin does. So obviously Def and Vit makes a difference. As a PLD/NIN i have like 80 vit, tops and i cant even remember what def i have, but like 350 maybe. As a PLD/RDM or PLD/WAR I have 130 vit and 450 def totally unbuffed, There is a much larger difference between me and a PLD/NIN then there is between a PLD/NIN and a BLM. And my gear isnt nearly as good as Fyglas

50 VIT, 100 DEF, some misc DMG-% gear and Phalanx2? This will make Tiamat a pussy?
Really?

If you bothered to read anything I wrote, VIT is pretty useless if you want to reduce damage. If the pDIF of monsters attack ranges anywhere from fractions to 4.0, has monstrous D value, and knowing they multiply to a really large number (the damage you take)... decreasing D is the stupidest approach if you want to reduce damage. Also, increasing DEF and VIT have diminishing returns on how much damage you take, which is relatively easy to show.

To illustrate my point, let's say Tiamat crits my poor BLM for 900, then let's just assume his critical hit pDIF is capped on me (probably is anyway), so his D value (recall: sum of lolfSTR and base DMG) is 225. If you decrease D by lets say... 10 fSTR with your badass VIT, which is roughly 40~50 VIT increase on your part. 4 x 215 = 860; great success! You lowered damage taken from 900 to 860, a huge difference of 40! Restating what I've said many times; fSTR is the smallest part of D. Another example that illustrates this, if you are using a 95 DMG weapon (like a scythe) and has capped fSTR (approximated by wRank + 8), your D value is (95 + 17). 17 is very small compared to your weapons damage. If you wanted this 95 DMG weapon to cap fSTR on Greater Colibri (VIT=67), you would need 17x4-4+67= 131 STR. You know why people always say meleeing in STR rings (other than that ACC+5 is about +2~4% increase in TP) is retarded? That's why.

That value of 40 less damage taken would only get less and less significant the more you lower pDIF. If pDIF is 2.0 and you went from a D of 225 to 215 , 2.0 x 225 = 450, 2.0 x 215 = 430. Only reduced 20 damage now compared to the capped pDIF of 4.0.

If you lower pDIF from 4.0 to 3.5, 3.5 x 225 = 787. 112 is a much more significant change. But again, the same thing happens the more you lower D, lowering pDIF becomes less effective in the grand scheme of things.

That is my argument, yours is based on qualitative claims with nothing factual at all. Literally what your saying is "with the magic of vit/def/phy -% you can take a lot less damage." You give me a screenshot of a person taking minimal damage, no information on what buffs were use, the equipment used or let alone the sub used (recall that you are arguing for /RDM). Not to mention the picture is a small portion of the entire screenshot, which again isn't represented.