Posts concerning drug use

[Firestreak]

Addiction is when your body is missing the effect of something, and you crave it when you go without. Anything you eat, drink, or smoke regularly will change your body chemistry enough that you will suffer withdrawal symptoms if you are no longer receiving that effect. The extreme withdrawal that you are speaking of comes from prolonged excessive use, not from simply getting drunk regularly.

There are things you can become physically dependent on and there are things you can't become physically dependent on. It's not "all relative" and not all things require prolonged excessive use to become addicted to. Alcohol you can become physically dependent on, and suffer from withdrawal systems. Saying someone is addicted to pot is akin to saying someone is addicted to gambling. They're not, it's the endorphin release they've been conditioned to enjoy.

It's like mixing drugs that you shouldn't, it's not the one that kills you but your use of both together. Alcohol poisoning doesn't come from getting drunk, it comes from having too many toxins in your body for a prolonged period of time. The alcohol alone won't do this, because your body knows to flush itself of the toxins.

You can absolutely get alcohol poisoning merely from drinking a lot of alcohol. Now I'm not talking about a reasonable amount of alcohol, but then not everyone drinks in reasonable amounts. Your body will purge toxins, however heavy drinkers' bodies are more used to alcohol and get progressive better at retaining. Enough alcohol paced right will kill you.

Just like alcohol doesn't have the calories, did that go over your head?

Are we talking about the real world or are we being purely theoretical? Alcohol doesn't have calories(it probably does actually) but you aren't drinking pure rubbing alcohol to get drunk. To smoke a joint you don't have to, assuming you aren't making it into brownies.

Eating a bunch of cupcakes, like getting drunk and getting into a fight, is activity that's caused by a high/drunk person, not the responsibility of the drug. It's a person's personal responsibility what they do if they take any sort of mind altering substance.

No, what you are talking about is smoking a joint verses getting absolutely sh!tfaced regularly. You don't get alcohol poisoning or suffer withdrawal from simply getting drunk.

No, you were talking about getting stoned versus having a glass of red wine before bed.

 

[Stouter]

You can start by telling me how many deaths you know of from Marijuana.

Because I don't know any.

I also cannot find any death related statistics on Marijuana.

Mostly because when you get stoned your alot more careful then when you get drunk, hell when your stoned your actually more carefull then when your sober. Stoned drivers are safe drivers, there actually has been studies on this.

And for the record I"m not trying to "legalize" marijuana here. Nor am I totally against it.

I personally know of three people that died as a result of stupidity related to pot. I only personally know of two that have died from stupidity related to alcohol (both drunk driving) and none that have died of medical conditions related to alcohol.

I'm more careful when I'm drunk than when I'm sober (although I don't drive) but that doesn't mean everyone is. More careful also doesn't mean you have the same reaction time, or the same perceptions. Both alcohol and pot will lower your peripheral vision, your reaction time, and impair your judgment.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Stouter]

No, you were talking about getting stoned versus having a glass of red wine before bed.

You were talking about how alcohol was bad for you because using it in excess has harmful effects, but simply smoking a joint had no major immediate health risk. I said that alcohol isn't horrible for you, and even has some beneficial effects, it's the misuse of it that has the harmful effects (much like the post about taking a whole package of some over the counter drug for a high)

Smoking pot does have harmful effects, both short term and long term. In the short term it increases your heart rate, and you are much more likely to have a heart attack shortly after using it. Long term it can weaken your body's immune system in the same manner that smoking cigarettes does, making you more prone to diseases.

 

[Sneakypants]

died as a result of stupidity

Annnd let's just leave it at that. 3 people to 2, huh? Amazing. Stupid is as stupid does.

I've known people that died completely sober due to stupidity.

Death from stupidity has nothing to do with legal or illegal drugs, and has everything to do with the stupidity of the individual. People can be stupid and irresponsible on or off any substance. I think anyone would agree that stupid things happen more often while on any substance from beer to hard street drugs to cold medicine.

On topic, I'm not sure why the fuck we would not speak of drugs out loud on a forum just because some people have made stupid mistakes.

A separate thread would be good for where this is being steered. A lot of this discussion doesn't really have anything to do with "posts concerning drug use". Most of this is turning into people sharing their personal feelings for drugs and what they think they know. Mielle mentioned, "I think you'll find argument for and against all over the place" so maybe we can make a separate post that discusses best and worst case scenarios that you've heard of or found on the Internet somewhere. That really has nothing to do with the topic, however.

It would be in the best interest for anyone that has anything to say about this, one way or the other, as well as for your potential audience, to create a new topic addressing your concerns, so as not bury such discussion in the QCDN Support & Feedback Forum while steering the topics within stray.

 

[Romper]

Did Firestreak say that alcohol doesn't have any calories? Stouter was being sarcastic with the alcohol not containing any calories. I don't even know what to say past this to think that alcohol doesn't contain any calories. You said it probably does when in fact I can't think of any alcoholic beverage that doesn't contain calories.

 

[Stouter]

Annnd let's just leave it at that. 3 people to 2, huh? Amazing. Stupid is as stupid does.

I've known people that died completely sober due to stupidity.

And hey, look at the chart that it's in reference to:

More than half of the listed deaths are from stupidity, almost 1/5 from drunk driving. Suicide was caused by alcohol? Even several of the medical conditions are questionable, like breast and larynx cancer from alcohol?

 

[Trippyhippy]

Did Firestreak say that alcohol doesn't have any calories? Stouter was being sarcastic with the alcohol not containing any calories. I don't even know what to say past this to think that alcohol doesn't contain any calories. You said it probably does when in fact I can't think of any alcoholic beverage that doesn't contain calories.

...

Pot doesn't dump calories into you? That sounds like someone who's never smoked a joint and then proceeded to eat an entire large bag of Doritos. Not all alcohol is high in calories, mix any liquor with a diet soda, or scotch on the rocks, gin and tonic, or whatever, and you have a nice buzz from fewer calories than you get from 5 minutes of the munchies.

That's the doritos that adds calories not pot. It's like saying alcohol is responsible for drunk driving. People are responsible for the choices they make in any state they choose to be in.

Just like alcohol doesn't have the calories, did that go over your head?

Are we talking about the real world or are we being purely theoretical? Alcohol doesn't have calories(it probably does actually) but you aren't drinking pure rubbing alcohol to get drunk. To smoke a joint you don't have to, assuming you aren't making it into brownies.

Romper... read a thread before attacking someone.

 

[Sneakypants]

And hey, look at the chart that it's in reference to:

More than half of the listed deaths are from stupidity, almost 1/5 from drunk driving. Suicide was caused by alcohol? Even several of the medical conditions are questionable, like breast and larynx cancer from alcohol?

So what exactly is your point?

My point was that this chart and discussion do not belong inside this thread.
I saw the chart. It's easy to understand.

As far as your discussion, I don't care what a single chart from 2001 says. I'm not here to debate the fine lines between different substances with you. I think it's incredibly pointless. I did make that pretty clear a couple times now. If you find value in talking about that, all I did was suggest there is a better place for it.

 

[Romper]

...









Romper... read a thread before attacking someone.

I read what both said. I was taking what Stouter said as sarcasm because I am sure Stouter knows there are calories, but after reading the comment about mixing with diet pop I retract the sarcasm statement. Once again though Firestreak said it probably does contain. Which means he's not certain of what his drinks contain.

 

[Trippyhippy]

And just so we're are clear about calories in Alcohol:

http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories/calorie_counter/alcohol.htm

 

[Zyndara]

And so we're clear on what addiction actually means/is:

ad·dic·tion [ ə díksh'n ] (plural ad·dic·tions)

noun

Definition:

1. drug dependence: a state of physiological or psychological dependence on a potentially harmful drug

2. devotion: great interest in a particular thing to which a lot of time is devoted

Just to clarify, since people are thinking it's only physical symptoms. Physiological or psychological meaning if you think you need it, if it's something you feel you have to have, or you devote an extraordinary amount of time and energy in procuring and using, you have a form of addiction.

I agree with Sneaky that this has kinda gotten outside the whole initial point and turned into a tangent about "x" being more harmful than "y." The bottom line is, addictive behavior can happen even in seemingly innocuous things (the internet) but it depends on the user. That's why not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic and not everyone who tokes is a pothead.

It seems clear that nothing is going to be proactively done to stop these threads from occuring and so be it. I personally don't want to see that junk, but as long as it's clearly labeled and keeps in an approproate (loosely used term) forum, I will feel free to ignore it. I'm guessing if it strays into other forums it'll be handled by the mods (as it really should be). To each their own; I'd only ask that people be a little responsible and keep in mind that not everyone is into drugs, and not everyone feels like hearing about it - and I'm not just talking about underage people either.

 

[Firestreak]

You were talking about how alcohol was bad for you because using it in excess has harmful effects, but simply smoking a joint had no major immediate health risk. I said that alcohol isn't horrible for you, and even has some beneficial effects, it's the misuse of it that has the harmful effects (much like the post about taking a whole package of some over the counter drug for a high)

Smoking pot does have harmful effects, both short term and long term. In the short term it increases your heart rate, and you are much more likely to have a heart attack shortly after using it. Long term it can weaken your body's immune system in the same manner that smoking cigarettes does, making you more prone to diseases.

Well you were attempting to compare the effects of someone high to that of someone drinking a glass of red wine daily. I'm trying to keep things in perspective if you want to compare chemicals from a loss/gain perspective. Everything has a loss and a gain. Even cigarettes have health bonuses, like lowering the chance of developing Parkinson's disease.

And so we're clear on what addiction actually means/is:



Just to clarify, since people are thinking it's only physical symptoms. Physiological or psychological meaning if you think you need it, if it's something you feel you have to have, or you devote an extraordinary amount of time and energy in procuring and using, you have a form of addiction.

I agree with Sneaky that this has kinda gotten outside the whole initial point and turned into a tangent about "x" being more harmful than "y." The bottom line is, addictive behavior can happen even in seemingly innocuous things (the internet) but it depends on the user. That's why not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic and not everyone who tokes is a pothead.

It seems clear that nothing is going to be proactively done to stop these threads from occuring and so be it. I personally don't want to see that junk, but as long as it's clearly labeled and keeps in an approproate (loosely used term) forum, I will feel free to ignore it. I'm guessing if it strays into other forums it'll be handled by the mods (as it really should be). To each their own; I'd only ask that people be a little responsible and keep in mind that not everyone is into drugs, and not everyone feels like hearing about it - and I'm not just talking about underage people either.

I don't consider physiological and psychological addiction to be really comparable, on the basis that physiological addiction is far more powerful, harder to break and actually relevant to the thing someone is addicted to rather than just the personality type of the person. I can become "addicted" in a psychological sense to anything. But when a person says, "I can't stop gambling, I'm addicted," they are not addicted in the same sense a person is to smoking.

They're just not comparable.

I read what both said. I was taking what Stouter said as sarcasm because I am sure Stouter knows there are calories, but after reading the comment about mixing with diet pop I retract the sarcasm statement. Once again though Firestreak said it probably does contain. Which means he's not certain of what his drinks contain.

You've rather tightly latched onto a rather tiny detail of our debate, and both attributed the statement to the wrong person, as it wasn't me who declared Alcohol has no calories, and I actually questioned that, but you've seemed to totally ignore the entire, much more complex discussion going on around it. I'm going to assume based on that you're underaged, and therefore use this occasional to point out that if it's people like you we're trying to protect by losing some semblance of free speech, it clearly isn't worth it.

 

[Zyndara]

I don't consider physiological and psychological addiction to be really comparable, on the basis that physiological addiction is far more powerful, harder to break and actually relevant to the thing someone is addicted to rather than just the personality type of the person. I can become "addicted" in a psychological sense to anything. But when a person says, "I can't stop gambling, I'm addicted," they are not addicted in the same sense a person is to smoking.

They're just not comparable.

You can think whatever you like. I can think the sky is green, it doesn't make it so. The medical establishment disagrees with you and research and facts back it up. That's good enough for me.

 

[Firestreak]

You can think whatever you like. I can think the sky is green, it doesn't make it so. The medical establishment disagrees with you and research and facts back it up. That's good enough for me.

No offense intended, but you don't know what the fuck you're actually talking about. I study under people who diagnose and treat addiction(among other things) for a living and you're quoting an online encyclopedia.

The common English usage that you can be "addicted" to something psychologically addictive doesn't really mean anything except that a word has grown to mean something illogically.

You can say in a casual conversation that Krispy Creme donuts are "addictive."


...that doesn't make them an actual, addictive substance.

Just consider it logically. If something is addictive because someone can become psychologically addicted to it, then everything is "addictive." Addiction would have no meaning, and you'd get caught in stupid conversations like this, where I say that alcohol is an addictive substance, and someone counters that pot is addictive too, as if the physical addictiveness of alcohol is fine because pot, like every substance on earth, and apparently, every activity too, can be considered addictive too, as long as people enjoy doing it.

Which is why there are plenty from that medical establishment you're so in sync with that don't like people using the term addictive for anything that isn't actually physically addictive. They especially hate activities addiction terms, like, "gambling addictions."

Since the symptoms to real addiction is so similar, they use the same word.

It doesn't mean it's the same thing. At all.

 

[Zyndara]

No offense intended, but you don't know what the fuck you're actually talking about. I study under people who diagnose and treat addiction(among other things) for a living and you're quoting an online encyclopedia.

The common English usage that you can be "addicted" to something psychologically addictive doesn't really mean anything except that a word has grown to mean something illogically.

You can say in a casual conversation that Krispy Creme donuts are "addictive."


...that doesn't make them an actual, addictive substance.

Just consider it logically. If something is addictive because someone can become psychologically addicted to it, then everything is "addictive." Addiction would have no meaning, and you'd get caught in stupid conversations like this, where I say that alcohol is an addictive substance, and someone counters that pot is addictive too, as if the physical addictiveness of alcohol is fine because pot, like every substance on earth, and apparently, every activity too, can be considered addictive too, as long as people enjoy doing it.

Which is why there are plenty from that medical establishment you're so in sync with that don't like people using the term addictive for anything that isn't actually physically addictive. They especially hate activities addiction terms, like, "gambling addictions."

Since the symptoms to real addiction is so similar, they use the same word.

It doesn't mean it's the same thing. At all.

No offence intended? Bullshit. And who the fuck are you to tell someone they don't know what they're talking about? You don't know anything about me, so don't presume to. I pulled a dictionary meaning... dictionary as in a bit more respectable than some random jackass saying he disagrees... to make a point because it's the most convenient and common-language example. You can take that condecending attitude and shove it.

I've studied as well... psychology, sociology, and enough biology & physiology to be coming from a place of knowledge. I have an RN, a doctor and a psycologist amongst relatives and personal friends whom I have discussed these things with at length. I do not presume to know everything about addiction or drugs, but I know enough to know you have a huge ego and little facts supporting your whole attitude.

Not going to sit here and be attacked by someone trying to tell me I know nothing to elevate his own skewed opinion, not fact, opinion. Think what you want, I don't really care anymore at this point.

 

[Firestreak]

I'm the guy who is saying you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, because I actually do know what the fuck I'm talking about. You don't know what you're talking about because you're arguing a point that's been on the wrong footing from the beginning.

This entire dumb conversation that has needlessly sprang up only emphasizes that you are wrong.

I say, "Alcohol is an addictive substance."

Stouter counters that pot is an addictive substance.

By the standards that pot is an addictive substance, anything is.

By this logic addiction has no meaning, because everything is addictive.

Therefore saying something that is physically addictive has no meaning.

^^^^^^^^

This is all confusion created by the common usage of the word "addiction."

When you're talking about something being addictive in a medical sense, the requirements to earn that tag are more specific. The fact that you can't distinguish the difference is not my fault, and if you're offended by my frankness on the matter, I can't help the fact you are uninformed.

 

[Zyndara]

Keep telling yourself that. I'm not uninformed. You're just so sure you're right and the rest of us are morons that you're being a dickhead and it's uncalled for. The fact is that any doctor will tell you that any number of endless things can be an addiction including gambling, the internet, sex, drugs, alcohol, even other people. They aren't just phrases people toss around to justify obsessive behaviors. They are real addictions and they all can be equally as destructive and harmful to the addict and the people around them. You're trying to pare the word down to fit the meaning you want it to, and that's fine if you want to keep kidding yourself. Go for it, I don't give a shit. But you've got balls calling anyone uninformed when you're arguing opinion and others are arguing facts. Regardless, have at it, as I said, I'm done beating my head upon this wall so I'm just going to leave it at that.

 

[Firestreak]

It's only an opinion as far as what we're debating is a terminology and not a hard science in itself. By which you can take an absolutely incorrect stance and hide behind opinion since I can't disprove that you are wrong the same way I can disprove that the Earth is flat. I can only offer a reasonable question for you to answer, in that if "internet, sex, [ext]" is all, in a medical sense can be addictive, then tell me what can't be addictive?

And I'm going to pull this sentence out of your response.

"They are real addictions and they all can be equally as destructive and harmful to the addict and the people around them."

First off I didn't say they weren't, "real." Obviously they're conditions and have a grounding in reality. They are not, however, equally destructive and harmful as a physical addiction to an actual addictive substance. You cannot die from withdrawal symptoms caused by your internet going out.

I sincerely doubt you've actually taken classes in "psychology, sociology, and enough biology & physiology" after hearing you say that.

 

[Zyndara]

I sincerely doubt you've actually taken classes in "psychology, sociology, and enough biology & physiology" after hearing you say that.

lol K...And yet I have to respond to this. You have an art for taking things out of context. I don't feel the need to prove my credentials or my education to someone who keeps resorting to distorting the argument to feel like he's winning it. I never said that you can die from non-physical addiction. That was never the arguement. You keep asking me what can't be addictive... I'm not going to sit out and type a list for you, instead of repeatedly asking me the same inane question, how about you go do some research then you'll have facts and not conjecture.

Regardless of what you think, the fact is that lives can be altered by any addiction, maybe not including death for non-physical addictions obviously. But to make like they are not equally as serious shows nothing more than your deparation to justify your point. You telling me someone like these people who get addicted to WoW and let their whole lives go to shit are somehow less a danger to themselves or their family as a drug addiction in a different manner? You think the possibility of death from withdrawal symptoms somehow makes that addiction more dangerous to the addict and others than the guy who jeopardizes his home, his job, the welfare of his children and family due to gambling addiction? Dangerous consequences are not restricted to physical symptoms resulting from addiction. And if you really think that they are, you're mistaken.

On a side note, though I wasn't feeling like sharing because it's nobody's damned business, I have personally watched a friend go through a pot addiction and have seen what it can do to someone's life and to their loved ones. So you and all the people like you who want to sit there and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about can go ahead and think what you want and spew whatever rhetoric you keep coming back at me with. It can be addictive, and whether psychological or physical is really moot. The destructiveness it can inflict on your life in terms of your ability to care for yourself and others is a reality. Just because you don't die from something doesn't mean it can't do extensive damage to your life.

If you feel the need to grill me further or want to question my knowledge or education again, feel free to take it to PM. Unless you feel the need to keep acting like you are the only one with any knowledge on the subject or you'd like to indirectly call me a liar some more, in which case, have fun with the rest of the thread, I won't be posting here again.

 

[Trippyhippy]

There is a very large difference between Chemical addiciton and psychological addicition. The one common factor is that anything that could cause a chemical addicition can also cause a psychological addicition, however the revearse is not true.

People become chemically and psychologically addicited to nicotine, cocain, heroin, alcohol, caffeine etc.

People become psychologically addicted to things like marijuana, video games, baseball, chocolate, Internet shopping, etc.

They are indeed two completely different types of addicition.

Here is some medical discussion on the topic.
http://www.utmedicalgroup.com/pages/webchat_addiction.html