ProTip: /nin sucks for most jobs

[Firestreak]

The only benefit I've seen so far is that you can e-peen it up and be a shitty dd by pulling too much hate. Hey guess what, other jobs can do that too. Again, DDing isn't rocket science. It's about maximizing damage without becoming a liability. If you're fucking with hate, even with shadows to save your ass, you're a liability. Liabilities eventually lead to deaths which lead to downtime which leads to you wasting my time.

I think the stupid DD is the guy who could be doing more damage and not only not take damage thanks to Utsusemi but save the tank damage by saving them hits but instead decides to pick the more offensive subjob and hold back entirely so they don't take hate.

This is a pretty basic concept to not be understanding at your level. It's like telling me I'm a stupid BLM for subbing RDM instead of SMN because I could be doing more damage with SMN sub. It's true but what's the point?

If you're pulling hate, you do enoughs damage to warrant a subjob that can create shadows. This allows you to continue building your damage up and up. When you have to be mindful of hate, you've already set your damage limit no matter how many times you double-attack or how much your berserk helps you.(Berserk increasing attack while lowering your shadowless defense emphasizes this point.)

Going on and on saying how people who don't want to limit their hate are idiots it just putting more and more nails into the coffin that holds your argument. Truth be told, anyone who makes a statement "Anyone who... is an idiot" is an idiot.(Yes, I realize the irony, but I go for the gold nonetheless.)

The concept of multiple subjobs and the idea of situational setups and versitility is obviously very foreign to you. I wonder if you're one of those kind of people who likes to bring up politics at a dinner party just so you can find out who has different beliefs than you and shun them for not being your clone. Only to find out a year later the politician you were backing turned out to be a pedophile. Oops, your life is meaningless.

 

[Uzor]

In this case, wouldn't /BLM be a better sub than /NIN? It gives you more mp, Conserve MP for more attacks, an INT boost, and other nifty magic enhancing abilities. Or are blus still falling back on the "we do teh uber dmg, need teh blinks"? I always thought if you pulled hate you'd just Headbutt to give the tank time to get it back, that's what I do on drk (Stun, that is).

Edit: Punctuation. And wait, why can I edit on the flameboard? <_<

BLU/BLM is very good in Dynamis. I've already tried that.

However, its close to useless in exp parties. BLU can get Conserve MP through setting spells, and MP isn't really an issue anyway. We also get Auto Refresh. INT does nothing to our physical spells.

The ones where he failed to realize how Dualwield works or the one where he failed to show a parse comparing BLU/NIN to BLU/WAR?

I know very well how Dual Wield works. The reason why Dual Wield enhances melee damage output, is because we attack two times guaranteed in-between spells. Most of the time, you'll only go through 1-2 attack rounds in-between spell casting. with /THF sub, using the same ammount of spells, this will only be about 2-3 attacks as opposed to 2-4. You might argue that 10% Double Attack is better then 15% (+suppanomimmi too) is better, but Dual Wield still allows you to attack 5% more. And Attack Bonus isn't an issue, since you can get Attack Bonus through spells.

Warcry and Berserk, sure, they add to melee damage. But melee damage isn't really that important anyway. Main damage output comes from spells, and Attack Bonus does nothing for these. And I can't really say that giving up blink for those two will be beneficial.

 

[Celvantes]

Also, pld/nin to exp. Die in a damn car fire. Only time pld/nin is any good is the harder HNM.

Company Sword + Joyeuse
Ifrit's Bow
Optical Hat
Fortitude Torque
Suppanomimi
Brutal Earring
Homam Corazza >>> Hecatomb Harness for WS
Homam Manopolas >>> Hecatomb Mittens for WS
Flame Ring x2
Amement Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Valor Breeches
Homam Gambieras >>> Hecatomb Leggings for WS

Accuracy: +43 (+28 for Vorpal Blade)
Strength: +23 (+48 for Vorpal Blade)
Attack: +15
Sword: +12
Enmity: +6 (holding hate through damage, maybe?)
Haste: +6%
Enhanced Dual Wield
Enhanced Double Attack (+ Joyeuse effect)
Enhanced Triple Attack
Store TP +1

Godly gear yes, but you can drop off the WS gear swap and still have good stats with more realistic gear on the normal setup:

Justice Torque >>> Chivalrous Chain
Homam Corazza >>> Haubergeron
Brutal Earring >>> Ethereal Earring
Homam Manopolas >>> Dusk Gloves
Valor Breeches >>> Sipahi Zerehs
Homam Gambieras >>> Marine Boots/Rutter Sabatons

Either way, I'd love to try out a PLD/NIN DD setup like the first one in a TP burn party.

 

[Rappa]

I think the stupid DD is the guy who could be doing more damage and not only not take damage thanks to Utsusemi but save the tank damage by saving them hits but instead decides to pick the more offensive subjob and hold back entirely so they don't take hate.

It's not about holding back. It's about timing. Do you blow off Thunder IV->Thundaga III at the very start of a fight? I certainly hope not. You can do teh uber melee damage by timing it correctly as well. Not a hard concept, eh?

Scenario 1:
I'm drk/nin. I blow off Souleater at the start of a fight because I have shadows up. Then I guillotine, mob takes teh 1337 damage. Then my macro lags and my shadows go down and I'm one-shotted.

Scenario 2:
I'm drk/war. When mob has 40% hp left, I use Souleater. I hit twice then use Guillotine and the mob is almost if not completely dead. If it isn't dead I Stun, cancel Souleater, and by the time Stun wears the mob is dead. 0% chance of my dying.

Will this always happen? No. Is it worth risking when I have absolutely no reason to do so? Not really.

1) Know what your job can do
2) Know when to use abilities at the right time
3) ???
4) Profit!

This is a pretty basic concept to not be understanding at your level. It's like telling me I'm a stupid BLM for subbing RDM instead of SMN because I could be doing more damage with SMN sub. It's true but what's the point?

I would never suggest /smn to anybody at all because it gives nothing beneficial. You're acting as if I'm suggesting to use /war only because of attack bonus, which is retarded.

If you're pulling hate, you do enoughs damage to warrant a subjob that can create shadows. This allows you to continue building your damage up and up. When you have to be mindful of hate, you've already set your damage limit no matter how many times you double-attack or how much your berserk helps you.(Berserk increasing attack while lowering your shadowless defense emphasizes this point.)

Wrong. If you're pulling hate you're either overdamaging or your tank sucks. Either replace the tank or quit beating off to your uber damage and be a team player.

I wonder if you're one of those kind of people who likes to bring up politics at a dinner party just so you can find out who has different beliefs than you and shun them for not being your clone. Only to find out a year later the politician you were backing turned out to be a pedophile. Oops, your life is meaningless.

No, that's Uzor. And I never discuss politics period.

 

[Angeloxi]

No, he's a gimped out THF, rocking LV 14 rings at 70+...maybe he's a new account of Peregrine.

Sadly I sold my Reflex Ring+1, so now I'm packin an Empress Band + Shikaree. woo ! Ya, I was interested in Uncle Meeze's Gil Giveaway for $$$ ONRY store, I called and was put on hold for like 30 min. >< i tink meeze dun want my $$$ ; ;

Peregrine, eh ? Nah, he was pimpin with gear like mine, but he could actually play his job. I actually don't know the guy, but I think him and Blazn make up the foundation of Quetzalcoatyl's greatest gimp levelers. I'm guessing they leveled gimp like I did only to 75 like true die hard gilsavers, maybe even unlocked sky/sea/moon/runic portal5/5/allOPwarp/etc. Maybe I should look up/learn from em.

But then, I use my Olduum Ring like 3 weeks ago and see meeze PTin as THF doing 600ish DMG to Lesser Colbri SATA Viper Bite consistantly. is that rmt style or what ? zomg meeze i saw you pimp out thf and now i jealous ; ;

Anyway, /NIN is overused and loved sub for many DD and even BRD and PLD and obviously RDM. Truthfully, /NIN really depends on the situation and gear that you have: why sub NIN as MNK/THF/DD if you can't pull hate in exp PT due to gear issues? why not sub NIN soloing avatars knowing you have no DD or healers and relying on hi-pots/refresh/etc. It has it's ups and downs, just like where to PT. Why party at dunes over korraloka/maze of shakrami? Because it is convenient and accepted that 'this job will sub this unless leader says so' or 'dunes ftw i too lazy to walk from selbina to korraloka/maze' so...

STATICs are the key to success. You know the other 5 members (traditional exp PT, not PUP/BST duo or whatever exceptions) and the key is communication: i will sub this at this level but until then blah. If members don't show up, I guess the static wasn't important to them since they committed to it in the first place. Ya, RL is goin on to miss statics, but multiple absences means people weren't deticated on the first place aka Dynamis BS. And let's all quit dynamis/cop/zm/assault because we all sub'd NIN instead of mained NIN to avoid any /NIN discussion.

Ready for flames because that's why I'm here. maybe yall `too long didn't read` because i stopped at thf/nin on OP anyway

 

[Uzor]

I don't go all out at the start of a fight. if I did that I would tank the entire fight. Reason I said "a BLU can do 1200+ damage in 10 sec" is because they are able to do this, not because I do.

Even by spreading my damage out throughout the entire fight, I end up tanking occasionally. Its hard to avoid when your spells do 600-900 damage each.

I would never suggest /smn to anybody at all because it gives nothing beneficial. You're acting as if I'm suggesting to use /war only because of attack bonus, which is retarded.

Then what are you suggesting it for? Warcry and Berserk, which does nothing at all to BLU other then slightly increase their melee damage? Double Attack, which does nothing but help their melee damage?

 

[Firestreak]

It's not about holding back. It's about timing. Do you blow off Thunder IV->Thundaga III at the very start of a fight? I certainly hope not. You can do teh uber melee damage by timing it correctly as well. Not a hard concept, eh?

Yes I do. I get better exp because of it.

Scenario 1:
I'm drk/nin. I blow off Souleater at the start of a fight because I have shadows up. Then I guillotine, mob takes teh 1337 damage. Then my macro lags and my shadows go down and I'm one-shotted.

Sucks to be you. It's a good thing you're not a ninja with that lag, because the possibility of bad lag causing you to die negates the usefulness of a job entirely.

Scenario 2:
I'm drk/war. When mob has 40% hp left, I use Souleater. I hit twice then use Guillotine and the mob is almost if not completely dead. If it isn't dead I Stun, cancel Souleater, and by the time Stun wears the mob is dead. 0% chance of my dying.

Unless you lag before you get that stun off and are ONE SHOTTED OH NO!

Will this always happen? No. Is it worth risking when I have absolutely no reason to do so? Not really.

Exping is a dangerous situation. You'd be a lot safer in Whitegate where you don't get one shotted every battle.

1) Know what your job can do
2) Know when to use abilities at the right time
3) ???
4) Profit!

1) Know your weaknesses.
2) Adapt to compensate for your weaknesses.
3) Make more exp.

I would never suggest /smn to anybody at all because it gives nothing beneficial. You're acting as if I'm suggesting to use /war only because of attack bonus, which is retarded.

First off, you're not suggesting anything. You're demanding.

Next off, you're demanding they do WAR for stats and abilities that constitute the ability to output more raw damage - like for example more MP, more INT and autorefresh.

Wrong. If you're pulling hate you're either overdamaging or your tank sucks. Either replace the tank or quit beating off to your uber damage and be a team player.

Overdamaging? That's a great word. Need I say more?

 

[meeze]

But then, I use my Olduum Ring like 3 weeks ago and see meeze PTin as THF doing 600ish DMG to Lesser Colbri SATA Viper Bite consistantly. is that rmt style or what ? zomg meeze i saw you pimp out thf and now i jealous ; ;

You musta missed my 800+ I did a few times, man I love that zone.

 

[Rappa]

Even by spreading my damage out throughout the entire fight, I end up tanking occasionally. Its hard to avoid when your spells do 600-900 damage each.

I think no one's going to be overly upset if you "occasionally" are tanking. Every job will occasionally pull hate, that doesn't mean every job should be subbing /nin. That IS what you invite mages for afterall.

Then what are you suggesting it for? Warcry and Berserk, which does nothing at all to BLU other then slightly increase their melee damage? Double Attack, which does nothing but help their melee damage?

Your argument changes so much. First it was about dual wield cranking out damage, then it was about how melee damage doesn't matter, etcetc. Just pick something and stick to it, don't argue for the sake of arguing like you enjoy doing so much. If you feel like melee damage is unimportant and it's doing ONE THIRD of your total damage, then you're nuts. Your magic is great, yes, but look at your parses. Without that melee damage, you're at the bottom of the barrel. You have to do both, sir. Saying that shadows are REQUIRED in order to do your job means you aren't doing it right or someone else in your party isn't.

 

[Uzor]

I think no one's going to be overly upset if you "occasionally" are tanking. Every job will occasionally pull hate, that doesn't mean every job should be subbing /nin. That IS what you invite mages for afterall.

That's because I have -3 enmity. And occasionally isn't just a "Now the mob hit me once!", its more like "Now the mob hits me a lot, time to recast shadows! Oooh, finally lost hate", then it goes back to that scenario after some time. No matter the party set up, someone will always tank. A lot of the time a WAR tank in a WAR cannon, unless the NIN is good and he tanks. Its all the same, though, as they all have shadows up. So what's the difference with who pulls hate?

Your argument changes so much. First it was about dual wield cranking out damage, then it was about how melee damage doesn't matter, etcetc. Just pick something and stick to it, don't argue for the sake of arguing like you enjoy doing so much. If you feel like melee damage is unimportant and it's doing ONE THIRD of your total damage, then you're nuts. Your magic is great, yes, but look at your parses. Without that melee damage, you're at the bottom of the barrel. You have to do both, sir. Saying that shadows are REQUIRED in order to do your job means you aren't doing it right or someone else in your party isn't.

My main argument have always been that we get shadows from /NIN sub for survivability. And my secondary argument have always been that dual wield slightly raises total damage output. I haven't changed this. And I didn't say that its all about melee damage. I did say that melee damage raises the total output, but never once did I say you should concentrate on melee damage. Quite the opposite, as I've said several times that your main damage comes from spells. And yes, if I didn't melee, I would probably be at the bottom of the barrel. All the more reason to melee, no? and Dual Wield helps with that. While /WAR would too, it would force me to slow down on my magic damage, thus relying more on melee, lowering my total damage even more.

Edit: I rox at teh qoting.

 

[Rappa]

Yes I do. I get better exp because of it.

Good for you. Glad I don't xp with ya!

Unless you lag before you get that stun off and are ONE SHOTTED OH NO!

Because Stun is all about the timing, right?

1) Know your weaknesses.
2) Adapt to compensate for your weaknesses.
3) Make more exp.

I would prefer to play to my strengths and not rely on lazy gameplay (ie shadows) to compensate for my weaknesses.

Next off, you're demanding they do WAR for stats and abilities that constitute the ability to output more raw damage - like for example more MP, more INT and autorefresh.

Because this has anything to do with /NIN? It's already been said that INT doesn't help blu much and blus can get traits for MP and Auto-Refresh, so the ONLY thing you're getting from /NIN is dual wield and utsusemi. Stick to the topic and quit pulling things outta yer ass.

 

[Khali]

Is it 5 pm CDT yet.... ? >.>

 

[Rappa]

That's because I have -3 enmity. And occasionally isn't just a "Now the mob hit me once!", its more like "Now the mob hits me a lot, time to recast shadows! Oooh, finally lost hate", then it goes back to that scenario after some time. No matter the party set up, someone will always tank. A lot of the time a WAR tank in a WAR cannon, unless the NIN is good and he tanks. Its all the same, though, as they all have shadows up. So what's the difference with who pulls hate?

OMG I've said that for cannons you should be subbing nin. Why are you even bringing this up? Plus what the hell else would war sub, they can't sub war, rofl. Again, if you pull hate for a little bit, your mages can handle it. No pt outside of a cannon should ever have every melee subbing nin so that the mages don't have to do any work, that's just ignorant.

My main argument have always been that we get shadows from /NIN sub for survivability. And my secondary argument have always been that dual wield slightly raises total damage output. I haven't changed this. And I didn't say that its all about melee damage. I did say that melee damage raises the total output, but never once did I say you should concentrate on melee damage. Quite the opposite, as I've said several times that your main damage comes from spells.

And my main argument is that subbing nin for survivability is being lazy and inefficient. Show me multiple parses where blu/nin smokes a blu/war (where both are equally equipped and playing correctly) and I'll be happy to accept any argument you want.

 

[Firestreak]

Good for you. Glad I don't xp with ya!

When I play for EXP my only concern is my party's exp per hour. Anyone who feels different should not invite me because we won't get along.

Because Stun is all about the timing, right?

I would hope a DRK would know this.

I would prefer to play to my strengths and not rely on lazy gameplay (ie shadows) to compensate for my weaknesses.

Which is why even though you're a melee, I'd produce more exp/hour in a TP burn than you as a BLM.

Because this has anything to do with /NIN? It's already been said that INT doesn't help blu much and blus can get traits for MP and Auto-Refresh, so the ONLY thing you're getting from /NIN is dual wield and utsusemi. Stick to the topic and quit pulling things outta yer ass.

You're trying to say that rather than picking a subjob that can provide me with protection and allow me to safely take hate to kill the monster faster - that I should pick the subjob that increases my damage output and simply "not take hate".

So as a BLM/SMN I would deal more damage, be able to cast more spells and go longer without running out of MP. However I couldn't ever take hate because I have no shadows or stoneskin. By your logic shouldn't all BLMs then sub SMN?

 

[Dowzer]

Blasting Lesser Colibri's for 1080 Sidewinder (1181 max) and a record high 937 Barrage, I'd say subbing Warrior is great for Ranger. That was only level 56, too. Screenies later for my epeen.

 

[Uzor]

OMG I've said that for cannons you should be subbing nin. Why are you even bringing this up? Plus what the hell else would war sub, they can't sub war, rofl. Again, if you pull hate for a little bit, your mages can handle it. No pt outside of a cannon should ever have every melee subbing nin so that the mages don't have to do any work, that's just ignorant.

BLU/NIN. God, everytime I see this I want to ram a fork into their eyesockets. Dual Wield is cute for you guys if you're soloing, but once you get past 30 stop that shit in parties. /THF gives you SA even at this point, or you can use berserk from /WAR so that your damage isn't so insignificant anymore. And god, at higher levels you guys can own if you don't gimp yourselves with /NIN. Just last night Pud was busting out some SATA Death Scissors that was totally destroying mobs. It was beautiful, and almost made me mist up a little.

That doesn't sound like you saying "OMG I've said that for cannons you should be subbing nin. Why are you even bringing this up?".

My argument was that past 70 (when most cannon parties are), /NIN is superior. I did, however, also say that pre-70, NIN isn't a very bad sub either. But it doesn't shine untill post-70.

And my main argument is that subbing nin for survivability is being lazy and inefficient. Show me multiple parses where blu/nin smokes a blu/war (where both are equally equipped and playing correctly) and I'll be happy to accept any argument you want.

sadly, this will never happen due to reasons I've already stated. Most BLU's plain-out sucks, and very few are properly equipped.

Edit: Anyway, I'm off to bed. Good night, and good luck on whatever new stuff you decide on exploring.

 

[Angeloxi]

You musta missed my 800+ I did a few times, man I love that zone.

Ya, 800+ for VB is great damage anyway. I can tell my THF skills did not inspire you to level it, unless maybe you wanted to take a job people gimp to make look bad and be the l33tist person to do it...or maybe you needed an extra THF for dynamis. Either way, you're great THF.

 

[Rappa]

I would hope a DRK would know this.

If I'm trying to Stun a bomb toss or something yes. If I'm trying to stun a mob after a weaponskill, no. Unlike shadows, which you have to time to ensure they get back up between mob attacks. You never know when your macros are going to lag, why do you think even the best nins get hit sometimes?

Which is why even though you're a melee, I'd produce more exp/hour in a TP burn than you as a BLM.

If you're surpassing my 20-25k xp/hr cannon pts then more power to ya, enjoy your manaburns. Though this is of course irrelevant to the topic.

You're trying to say that rather than picking a subjob that can provide me with protection and allow me to safely take hate to kill the monster faster - that I should pick the subjob that increases my damage output and simply "not take hate".

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'm curious, when you sub nin do you intentionally try to steal hate off the tank just because you can? If so, that's rather silly. No one should ever be trying to take hate, you should be trying not to. You shouldn't have to rely on those shadow crutches that got you thru the jungles.

So as a BLM/SMN I would deal more damage, be able to cast more spells and go longer without running out of MP. However I couldn't ever take hate because I have no shadows or stoneskin. By your logic shouldn't all BLMs then sub SMN?

No. Why you keep comparing mages to melee is beyond me since they are two different things completely.

My argument was that past 70 (when most cannon parties are), /NIN is superior. I did, however, also say that pre-70, NIN isn't a very bad sub either. But it doesn't shine untill post-70.

Yes, and for the millionth time I already covered cannon pts in my 2nd sentence in this topic.

sadly, this will never happen due to reasons I've already stated. Most BLU's plain-out sucks, and very few are properly equipped.

Until I see otherwise, nothing will convince me that a DD subbing nin is better than a DD subbing war, blus included. Do /war and parse or something, rofl.

 

[Rappa]

That doesn't sound like you saying "OMG I've said that for cannons you should be subbing nin. Why are you even bringing this up?".

Oh right, forgot this. He was doing SA Death Scissors when the mob was close enough to death to where one-two more hits afterwards would kill. Never once did his hp drop significantly because he would stun it then it died. This pt was also pre-70 if that matters.

 

[Tagrineth]

If you're surpassing my 20-25k xp/hr cannon pts then more power to ya, enjoy your manaburns. Though this is of course irrelevant to the topic.

You mean the ones where you're a WHM healing WAR/NIN NIN/WAR and MNK/NINs (ie jamal, deci, neophytal - it's public knowledge that you've WHMed for them)