ProTip: /nin sucks for most jobs

[Zethren]

Phalanx isnt the real reason to sub RDM it just helps take off a bit of damage you may get. With Blink/Stoneskin you can take at least 4 hits maybe 4.5 with the right food/Phalanx and even more with damage reduction gear, wheres Ni you get 3. Now you aren't going to stop to cast Ni if you are pulling Demons nor would you stop to cast Blink/Stoneskin.

I usually eat Def food when I pull. Tacos or fish kabob, depending on the people/PT. I must be too weak then because Stoneskin alone has never gave me 4 or more hits. But if you mean both of them on at the same time then I'd agree with that. Actually when I pulled with /nin in the range aganist a demon I did stop and cast Ni, if shadows ran out and the keep on running. It is very fast, and much easier to do than blink or stoneskin while running.

All in all I belive my camp position was not a good one. But still I'd like to see you sometime in the range with /whm and /rdm for the experience.

I am not trying to fight aganist you, simply trying to learn and improve myself.

 

[Firestreak]

Well I've never actually tried brd/nin as my brd is still 69, but I'd imagine Utsusemi:Ni trumps Stoneskin and Blink and Phalanx put together and for one very simple comparison.

Well first off Blink is better than Stoneskin, simply because with BRD's defense stoneskin doesn't nearly deflect 3 hits. As well, 3 hits should be enough to allow you to get to camp, stop and sleep. The trouble with bliink is that it's not reliable, so you need a stoneskin to deflect the hits that blink misses.

Now if you're using Utsusemi... then cast Ni and you have 3 hits. You don't need stoneskin, you don't need Ichi, 3 100% deflects are enough.

So if you want to talk about time, it's 1 second to cast Ni versus the combined cast times of Blink and Stoneskin.

Not saying Brd/Nin is the way to go, but I do understand its advantage, especially not owning all the very expensive BRD gear to lower singing time.

>> And to throw out there, if you tend to always be pressed for time trying to get so many songs off that you don't have time for blink and stoneskin and often get clobbered pulling fast mobs like Puks... it would seem like Ni to stop taking 300-400 dmg on pulls is more useful than occasional backup cures.(depending on how occasional)

 

[Scaevola]

I would have to say 55-60 any WAR with standard gear could give most THFs a run for thier money. I know my war can do consistant 500-700 rampages. Pair that up with the fact that WAR DoT is so much better then THF. I would think WAR makes a better Distortion closer at this lvl.

I don't doubt it, but 1) Rampage is just about the only thing at that level that can outclose VB on Distortion, and the fact that other classes have to wait at least 20 levels to do it says a lot, and 2) the reason why THF is such a great SC closer at that level is that tanks pre-60 simply do not have the tools to hold hate off a heavy DD pulling a 500+ point WS followed by a 350+ Skillchain. The great thing about THF, to my mind, is not that they assist hate generation for tanks who may or may not need the help, but because they Skillchain for literally half or more of a mob's health without putting themselves in danger at all. It's competely maintenance-free.

 

[K. Ishitar]

just tossing this out there but blu spells with vit+ additions like sandspin and cocoon if your worried about pure def for bard tanking and pulling and such there is also lolmetallicbody but we know it starts crapping out at about oh lv10ish on blu main

reading the latter pages of this thread, I think my brain just said to my eyes gtfo I'm melting from wall of debate....

 

[Scaevola]

Sorry, but cancelling berserk takes you back down to your base att, it doesn't nerf it.

When it means you're doing less damage with SATA (your only meaningful source of damage as a THF) than you could be as a /NIN, yes, you are nerfing your damage.

Utsusemit doesn't help with it because /nin doesn't add any attack at all.

Sneak Attack Damage is determined by a DEX coefficient. Trick Attack is determined by an AGI coefficient. I understand that this may be an alien concept to classess who don't have key abilities determined this way, but when you're dealing with abilities that work as coefficients of certain stats, every single stat point counts. This is why some MNKs sub /WHM for phat Chi Blasts. How does NIN's higher DEX and AGI bonuses, plus 3 more dex from scimitar and later calveley's, not equal more damage for the THF?

Relying on Utsu is a crutch for mediocre pullers. You should have mob pops down by the 2nd or third chain and should know that a pop is coming.

PROVOKE IS A CRUTCH FOR MEDIOCRE TANKS THEY SHOULD JUST USE FLASH AND SPAM CURE 8 MILLION ON THEMSELVES AMIRITE

If I see a THF anywhere near a sword after they get VB I will slap them silly, especially when your main SC partners are DRG and SAM, two jobs that gain TP at a very good rate. Off handing a 236 delay sword when your mainhand is 190-205 isn't the brightest thing to do when you only have DW1.

TP generation is based on weapon speed. When dual wielding, each weapon generates an average of the two weapons' TP gains. Weapon speed doesn't matter because if your off-hand is a slower weapon speed, you generate more TP per hit to compensate.

I already posted /war isn't that hot in the 30's, and probably remains that way until lv 50 when /war gets double att. THFs att isn't that high to get excited about berserk. Once DA kicks in though, and especially once Triple Attack kicks in, /war puts you ahead of every THF out there. I dropped a few 800 VBs on Colibris, and backed that up with a few 600 VBs against crabs in Cape Terrigan

And /NIN gives you an extra hit per weapon skill. I was putting up 600+ VBs as a THF/NIN against bats and flies in Gustav Tunnel at level 38.

To close Distortion or for "zomg he kan do 400+ damage every ws he leet". I've SATA VB'd my trick partner plenty of times and had the PLD take hate back, a few PLDs have even been shocked that they could when I suggested it. I know it can happen because I kept hate as NIN, and later as PLD.

I'm not sure how that's relevant. But regardless, I'm sure the fact that the tank could hold hate under that circumstance had nothing to do with the fact that a THF opened the fight with a SATA.

I'll easily say they don't get anything from subbing /nin at lower levels, I'll just as easily say that /war isn't that hot till 50 also. I don't think either matters much pre-50, but after 55 /war is the shit.

I'll concede that after double attack, /WAR is certainly better for TP gain. I leveled THF before the TP floor was eliminated.

 

[Scaevola]

This is a stupid argument. THF really don't get ANYTHING out of subbing NIN pre-50. You can argue all you want that shadows will help, but shadows won't do anything. Mobs doesn't run faster then you unless you pull raptors, and I don't remember fighting any raptors pre-50. At 50 you get Dual Wield 2, and then it MIGHT be usefull subbing NIN for that, but I dunno. I'm not a THF, so I won't argue about that.

Offhand stats, and the fact that DW gives you another hit in a weapon skill.

 

[Scaevola]

I would have to say 55-60 any WAR with standard gear could give most THFs a run for thier money. I know my war can do consistant 500-700 rampages. Pair that up with the fact that WAR DoT is so much better then THF. I would think WAR makes a better Distortion closer at this lvl.

Maybe, but that would be the case regardless of what the THF was subbing.

 

[Crosis]

I usually eat Def food when I pull. Tacos or fish kabob, depending on the people/PT. I must be too weak then because Stoneskin alone has never gave me 4 or more hits. But if you mean both of them on at the same time then I'd agree with that. Actually when I pulled with /nin in the range aganist a demon I did stop and cast Ni, if shadows ran out and the keep on running. It is very fast, and much easier to do than blink or stoneskin while running.

All in all I belive my camp position was not a good one. But still I'd like to see you sometime in the range with /whm and /rdm for the experience.

Yes I meant both together. Stopping to recast I'll imagine doesnt even save much time, you'd lose at least 2 shadows and the third not quickly after. Id sooner sleep then do that. Also wouldn't reccommend /whm in Range, buffs are just too slow as well as songs.

Well first off Blink is better than Stoneskin, simply because with BRD's defense stoneskin doesn't nearly deflect 3 hits. As well, 3 hits should be enough to allow you to get to camp, stop and sleep. The trouble with bliink is that it's not reliable, so you need a stoneskin to deflect the hits that blink misses.

No it doesn't deflect 3 but with Blink spell and Stoneskin you get more then the 3 from Ni. Also there is damage reduction gear, Terras + Cheviot/Umbra cape and even Jelly ring paired with Tacos/Pro IV/Phalanx can make Stoneskin last close if not 3 hits depending the mob.

Now if you're using Utsusemi... then cast Ni and you have 3 hits. You don't need stoneskin, you don't need Ichi, 3 100% deflects are enough.

So if you want to talk about time, it's 1 second to cast Ni versus the combined cast times of Blink and Stoneskin.

And to throw out there, if you tend to always be pressed for time trying to get so many songs off that you don't have time for blink and stoneskin and often get clobbered pulling fast mobs like Puks... it would seem like Ni to stop taking 300-400 dmg on pulls is more useful than occasional backup cures.(depending on how occasional)

I've never taken 300-400 dmg from a Puk before lol. Rdm sub makes you not pressed for time because all the Fast Cast adds up. Puks are great examples of how Stoneskin can be better then Ni. I can easily take 3 hits from a weak Puk before Stoneskin wears and still have my backup Blink able to keep running. Whereas Ni it's just 3 and you have to stop and recast probably getting hit in the process. Eventually that adds up and a healer has to cure you because you can't cure yourself ever.

 

[metachronism]

blu/nin: I don't know if you've actually looked at parsed logs, but blu/nins crank out pretty formidable numbers. Anyone who advocates sub thf (for any job) in xp/merit for damage needs to go back to the logs.

thf/nin: thfs don't sub nin for melee damage. If they do, they are indeed idiots. What they sub thf for is to keep up with TP for the SA timer (which constitutes a large bulk of their damage source--Berserked or not, you're wasting a lot of potential damage by missing the WS on your SA timer), and for pulling. Eva whores or not, the fast running/fast hitting mobs (raptors for example) will have no trouble killing the thf on a long pull if not for utsusemi.

brd/nin: If you're in a fast merity party, brd does not have the time to sit there recasting stoneskin in order to keep the chain going. He's also away half the time to pull, so sub whm serves little purpose. Sure, if you have only 1 other person in the party that can use white magic, sub whm might be preferred, but in the typical nin dd dd (yeah, usually wars) rdm whm brd setup, brd *should* be sub nin in order to not slow down the pulls.

pld/nin: Let's face it. At 75, a pld tank can't get anywhere near the efficiency a nin tank can offer. But, a properly played/set up pld can crank out 85% and higher of the damage a "have everything" nin can do (guys fortunate to have very exclusive gear can probably reach 90% and higher). While the damage itself is not something to have an orgasm over, plds can also provide extra insurance with flash/cure/cover, making them a very legitimate dd/support member in a merit party. People seriously underestimate the A+ rating and the equipment selection a pld has. Although, the unskilled plds who just sit there meleeing mindlessly in their tank gear is partly to blame for the poor reputation pld/nins have.

There are people who mindlessly sub nin just because "it's cool," but there are clearly very legitimate reasons to use sub nin, even on the aforementioned list of jobs in the OP.

 

[meeze]

When it means you're doing less damage with SATA (your only meaningful source of damage as a THF) than you could be as a /NIN, yes, you are nerfing your damage.

No, clicking off serk puts you back to base damage before serk, which is still higher than /nin. Not nerfing damage at all.

Sneak Attack Damage is determined by a DEX coefficient. Trick Attack is determined by an AGI coefficient. I understand that this may be an alien concept to classess who don't have key abilities determined this way, but when you're dealing with abilities that work as coefficients of certain stats, every single stat point counts. This is why some MNKs sub /WHM for phat Chi Blasts. How does NIN's higher DEX and AGI bonuses, plus 3 more dex from scimitar and later calveley's, not equal more damage for the THF?

BST and PLD add more VIT which is helps with MNKs WS, BST would give more CHR to BRD and vice versa, RNG gives 22 acc as a sub, I don't see those combos out much, you know why? because they aren't as good as other subs. /WAR is the best sub hands down 55-75 for damage as a THF, and probably 50-75. before that it doesn't matter much.

PROVOKE IS A CRUTCH FOR MEDIOCRE TANKS THEY SHOULD JUST USE FLASH AND SPAM CURE 8 MILLION ON THEMSELVES AMIRITE

Seriously, do you take the time to put shadows up before pulls or during fights? fuck that, i never did. I kept chains going and pulled from a safe distance. It isn't difficult. If you "need" utsu to pull, you suck. SAM and DRK pull a lot without sub NIN, I don't see why a THF "needs" it.

TP generation is based on weapon speed. When dual wielding, each weapon generates an average of the two weapons' TP gains. Weapon speed doesn't matter because if your off-hand is a slower weapon speed, you generate more TP per hit to compensate.

Ya, delay doesn't matter, the whole point of using /nin is being able to cut delay on weapons, not to offhand a fucking greatsword.

And /NIN gives you an extra hit per weapon skill. I was putting up 600+ VBs as a THF/NIN against bats and flies in Gustav Tunnel at level 38.

Cool, you 600+ on mobs taht are weak to piercing...I was doing that with my hornetneedle AND getting TP faster than you.

I'm not sure how that's relevant. But regardless, I'm sure the fact that the tank could hold hate under that circumstance had nothing to do with the fact that a THF opened the fight with a SATA.

I said it before, any tank that needs SATA is a gimp.

 

[Firestreak]

No it doesn't deflect 3 but with Blink spell and Stoneskin you get more then the 3 from Ni. Also there is damage reduction gear, Terras + Cheviot/Umbra cape and even Jelly ring paired with Tacos/Pro IV/Phalanx can make Stoneskin last close if not 3 hits depending the mob.



I've never taken 300-400 dmg from a Puk before lol. Rdm sub makes you not pressed for time because all the Fast Cast adds up. Puks are great examples of how Stoneskin can be better then Ni. I can easily take 3 hits from a weak Puk before Stoneskin wears and still have my backup Blink able to keep running. Whereas Ni it's just 3 and you have to stop and recast probably getting hit in the process. Eventually that adds up and a healer has to cure you because you can't cure yourself ever.

Well at 75 Puks are going to hit you a whole lot less than they hit me at 68, as well lower level BRDs don't have access to Rostrum Pumps, BRD JSE and Loq Earring to increase the cast speed.

Of course there's no Utsusemi: Ni at my level either making blink versus Utsusemi a less tilted argument.

So I guess you could say BRD/NIN wins for defensive pulling after you get Ni but before you get Loq. Earring, Rostrum pumps and JSE Body, which for some BRDs can be quite a while. Especially if you're paired with a more than competant healer but someone unreliable vokers.

 

[Scaevola]

No, clicking off serk puts you back to base damage before serk, which is still higher than /nin. Not nerfing damage at all.

except for the part where its not

THF damage at that level is so low outside of SATA as to be insignificant. Though I am extremely dubious of the idea that the added STR from WAR contributes anything meaningful to THF auto-attacking, I highly doubt it's more than the 10% more damage you're getting from DW. As for SATA, are you seriously going to try to make the claim that /WAR, without Berserk, can beat the added DEX, AGI, DEX offhand, and extra WS hit of /NIN?

BST and PLD add more VIT which is helps with MNKs WS, BST would give more CHR to BRD and vice versa, RNG gives 22 acc as a sub, I don't see those combos out much, you know why? because they aren't as good as other subs. /WAR is the best sub hands down 55-75 for damage as a THF, and probably 50-75. before that it doesn't matter much.

Are you saying MNKs never sub WHM for bigger Chi Blasts? None of the examples you've given involve coefficients, except in the case of VIT for MNKs wrt Chakra.

Seriously, do you take the time to put shadows up before pulls or during fights? fuck that, i never did. I kept chains going and pulled from a safe distance. It isn't difficult. If you "need" utsu to pull, you suck. SAM and DRK pull a lot without sub NIN, I don't see why a THF "needs" it.

Of course not. I don't get hit every pull. I usually go entire nights without getting hit on pulls, because I've done a lot of it. But as I'd mentioned earlier, shit happens. You cannot possibly say that you will NEVER get hit, and even if you don't die from a THF's paper-thin defense, you're sure as hell eating a lot of mana in getting heals you shouldn't have had to take in the first place.

No, I never recast Utsu on every pull. Usually, it came down to casting once every 15-20 minutes from the errant hit. For shit like raptors where I was getting hit more often, I'd usually recast at about 3% of the last mob's health so that I'd be up and ready to go.

Ya, delay doesn't matter, the whole point of using /nin is being able to cut delay on weapons, not to offhand a fucking greatsword.

I was responding to your comment in the context of TP generation, saying that regardless of weapon delay, dual-wielding, etc., TP generation for THF/NIN is pretty constant. Wasn't that the whole point of eliminating the TP floor?

Cool, you 600+ on mobs taht are weak to piercing...I was doing that with my hornetneedle AND getting TP faster than you.

Ok, record of 570 on Beetles in Altepa around 41. And you weren't getting TP faster than me before 50.

And I had Utsusemi, thus eating literally 0 healing mana over the course of the night.

I said it before, any tank that needs SATA is a gimp.

Do you understand words?

 

[Crosis]

brd/nin: If you're in a fast merity party, brd does not have the time to sit there recasting stoneskin in order to keep the chain going. He's also away half the time to pull, so sub whm serves little purpose. Sure, if you have only 1 other person in the party that can use white magic, sub whm might be preferred, but in the typical nin dd dd (yeah, usually wars) rdm whm brd setup, brd *should* be sub nin in order to not slow down the pulls.

My Brd/Whm and Brd/Rdm multiple chain 250+ parties beg to differ lol. People act like just cause Brd/Nin has Ni they will never take damage, get hit, and can pull quicker. Let's not forget AOE damage that go through shadows that the solo main healer will have to cure. Hello thar Cursed Sphere and Wind Shear.

Again Fast Cast from /Rdm allows you to sleep the mob after pulling it to camp without getting hit or losing a shadow unless its a quick mob, IE Puk. /Nin you can never help the healer and in the event you do take damage, because shit happens, you can't cure yourself.

So I guess you could say BRD/NIN wins for defensive pulling after you get Ni but before you get Loq. Earring, Rostrum pumps and JSE Body, which for some BRDs can be quite a while. Especially if you're paired with a more than competant healer but someone unreliable vokers.

JSE Body can be switched with Yigit, its not much a difference. If people aren't voking then yell at them to voke. If they aren't voking you are losing Ni shadows anyway and thats less shadows to go out and pull with. With /Rdm the 8 seconds it takes to cast Stoneskin is not long, plenty of time to still go pull a mob back to camp, sleep it, then cast Blink. Ni may be a bit safer for the Bard but overall it's not the best for the party IMO and Fast Cast with the ability to back up the main healer is much better.

 

[Ugotjacked]

Meeze is that a challenge? my thief is 63 right now and I garuntee ill out DD you as /nin and you on /war. /war doesnt have enough benefits for thief especailly 54-66 because we have a huge dmg increase on birds. I prolly wont be on a lot so try and catch me in lvls and Ill show you how to play thief.

Merc Kris is still the best for thief 50-68. Fuck double attack I can do that every single round with this dagger lol.

 

[Tride]

Merc Kris is still the best for thief 50-68. Fuck double attack I can do that every single round with this dagger lol.

for 4dmg!

 

[Scaevola]

Meeze is that a challenge? my thief is 63 right now and I garuntee ill out DD you as /nin and you on /war. /war doesnt have enough benefits for thief especailly 54-66 because we have a huge dmg increase on birds. I prolly wont be on a lot so try and catch me in lvls and Ill show you how to play thief.

Merc Kris is still the best for thief 50-68. Fuck double attack I can do that every single round with this dagger lol.

Kind of a moot point, to be fair. Mithra will out-damage any other race, and if anyone beats a Mithra, they'd have done better as a Mithra themselves.

Of course, whether this has anything to do with the fact that Mithra have more DEX has yet to be established lolololololololol

 

[metachronism]

My Brd/Whm and Brd/Rdm multiple chain 250+ parties beg to differ lol. People act like just cause Brd/Nin has Ni they will never take damage, get hit, and can pull quicker. Let's not forget AOE damage that go through shadows that the solo main healer will have to cure. Hello thar Cursed Sphere and Wind Shear.

I'm not talking about caedarva where you don't even need a puller in the first place. If you're "pulling" in caedarva, you're doing something wrong. Also, flies rank among the slowest mobs in the game. Of course you don't need sub nin for that. Also, if you are xping with only 1 person who can heal, you don't have a brd-pull party setup in the first place.

Try pulling in lufaise or uleguerand for chain 10+s, and you'll appreciate the utsusemi. You'll either fail to chain that high, die pulling, or be an mp sponge at best, pulling as brd/whm or brd/rdm on the abraxis/demon, etc.

 

[Marajade]

for 4dmg!

compared to what, 15?

 

[Crosis]

I'm not talking about caedarva where you don't even need a puller in the first place. If you're "pulling" in caedarva, you're doing something wrong. Also, flies rank among the slowest mobs in the game. Of course you don't need sub nin for that. Also, if you are xping with only 1 person who can heal, you don't have a brd-pull party setup in the first place.

Try pulling in lufaise or uleguerand for chain 10+s, and you'll appreciate the utsusemi. You'll either fail to chain that high, die pulling, or be an mp sponge at best, pulling as brd/whm or brd/rdm on the abraxis/demon, etc.

LolLufaise? What am I partying with a Thf cannon? Cause Nins and Wars sure have gimp damage there.

As for Range I've done it many times with plenty of chains over 10. You act like you cant sleep a mob if its hitting you? And please do tell me how Blink and Stoneskin which is 4 hits+ is weaker then 3 Ni shadows which you have to STOP to recast? And if one hit does indeed get through by the time I get to camp, I can easily Cure III myself with my 400+mp pool. If one hit ever gets through on /Nin guess who has to heal that.

And plenty of times you have to pull in Mire and Thickets, there are usually multiple parties you have to outclaim or go far to grab an unclaimed mob.

 

[Firestreak]

JSE Body can be switched with Yigit, its not much a difference. If people aren't voking then yell at them to voke. If they aren't voking you are losing Ni shadows anyway and thats less shadows to go out and pull with. With /Rdm the 8 seconds it takes to cast Stoneskin is not long, plenty of time to still go pull a mob back to camp, sleep it, then cast Blink. Ni may be a bit safer for the Bard but overall it's not the best for the party IMO and Fast Cast with the ability to back up the main healer is much better.

At this point to be honest I'm happy if I don't die in the camp having ran past the party with the pull that didn't react. The days of me getting a party where I can be completely confident that I'm not taking hits not really just from the pull but from standing around in camp have not come yet. I know I can just ditch a party when that happens and find another but I don't really have that option.(I'll spare you the reason.)

First off, if we can agree our main intent assuming we can give 2 attack songs and a ballad 2, is from then on to be able to pull fast as possible. Meaning we want to keep the chain going and we won't at all points be able to have an endless supply of mobs, being that there can be competition. It's true BRD/WHM or /RDM is helpful in assisting the healer if the trouble we're facing is low MP, but if alternatively our biggest obstacle is pulling a mob back before the chain runs out we have to consider getting out to pull as soon as possible.

For all internsive purposes, if the melees slam the hell out of a mob it can very easily be almost dead by the time you're done with minuets and the only choice you have is to race into the pack to find another victim as fast as possible - in this situation, Ni would be the only thing I'd consider casting. Ironically, those are also the situations where I'm most likely to take damage, being that I'll jam my elegy macro without care for position because I don't want to lose claim or pull back too slow.

Can't comment on what Brd/Nin is actually like as i've never tried it. Just pointing out as BRD/WHM my biggest problem is when melees kill a mob too quickly and I'm forced to prematurely run out to pull or lose the chain - the slow speed of stoneskin and blink really show there.