ProTip: /nin sucks for most jobs

brd/nin is just an mp sponge that loses any benefit it could be gaining from other subs. Even if the benefits are mainly for yourself (like curing yourself so the mage doesn't have to), it's still much more sensible for you to be subbing anything other than nin unless your pt members absolutely do not understand how to provoke pulled mobs.

And yes, Crosis always subs rdm for our xp pts where we get our chain 300s. He has more than enough time to keep songs going and pull while casting SS/Blink/etc. It's not hard if you work with your other pt members.
 
Rappa said:
brd/nin is just an mp sponge that loses any benefit it could be gaining from other subs. Even if the benefits are mainly for yourself (like curing yourself so the mage doesn't have to), it's still much more sensible for you to be subbing anything other than nin unless your pt members absolutely do not understand how to provoke pulled mobs.

And yes, Crosis always subs rdm for our xp pts where we get our chain 300s. He has more than enough time to keep songs going and pull while casting SS/Blink/etc. It's not hard if you work with your other pt members.
That's about 90% of war's right there, I might have to try /nin when I get brd up to merit level.
 
But then you're making assumptions you're partying with skilled people which is often not the case. I think Neophytal can back me up that on my last party in Mire as BRD I was literally killed over a period of 4 hits in camp standing next to the melees with no other mob being fought even. That's an extreme case but that's what's been happening to me lately, in that I'm expected to pull but I'm left standing there in a Justacorpse+1 getting the shit kicked out of me. At that point I don't give a shit to be honest if BRD/RDM can get the party another 500 exp/hour parsed, I care about the R1 I'm taking that I have no control to prevent. I'll probably continue playing BRD/WHM or move on to BRD/RDM(probably /whm for Mire still), but that's my choice - as ultimately everyone's given their own choice for subjob.

If I want to sub /nin because that's my preference, it's my decision and as long as I'm keeping 2 songs on everyone all the time and pulling mobs for nonstop chain, no one has any right to complain to be honest, cause I'm the one putting the most effort in of all the party members and if the EXP is lacking in any way it's probably someone else who's dragging ass.
 
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Firestreak said:
But then you're making assumptions you're partying with skilled people which is often not the case. I think Neophytal can back me up that on my last party in Mire as BRD I was literally killed over a period of 4 hits in camp standing next to the melees with no other mob being fought even. That's an extreme case but that's what's been happening to me lately, in that I'm expected to pull but I'm left standing there in a Justacorpse+1 getting the shit kicked out of me. At that point I don't give a shit to be honest if BRD/RDM can get the party another 500 exp/hour parsed, I care about the R1 I'm taking that I have no control to prevent.
I agree with this completely. I just left a mire party where I was getting totally slammed. Had to eat R1 once (twice on the way back to town, but I'm still mad about that and don't wanna talk about it, rofl). But even without access to yigit yet I could keep buffs up when needed.

Oh and protip to you melee. For the love of christ, don't fucking attack sleeping mobs that the tank hasn't voked yet. Thanks!

Edit: Was brd/rdm in that pt.
 
I had a MNK who wouldn't stop attacking a slept mob when our tank was weakened and AFK. We kept spamming it with sleep and he kept punching. I had to boot him from the party to get the mob asleep again and find a replacement. (I do believe i replaced him wtih a 70 THF who posts on QCDN often.)
 
Actually on birds which is mainly where most my exp has been coming from recently its about 12 per hit for mec kris where my mainhand is about 35 dmg. GOGO colibris and lesser birds!!!
So when it procs al three I get a fuckload of TP and more dmg out of it which is a 33% chance...
Regular mobs like Raptors its been about 8ish havent had to do any crab parties as thief but I prolly wouldnt use that dagger if I had to.

ohh and I parse the first 20ish or so fights of every party and I have only been beaten by two monks and both were more decked then me and one had Merits. But I cant say much for the wars ive partied with only been a few good ones here and there.

I know someone is going to come here and say but you TP the mobs... I have yet to have a problem with tanks yet. Most problems that tanks have is without my help.


Edit while Mithra are the best Thief because of dex and agi thats not gonna make me parse all that much higher than an eqaully skilled and equipped thief. Id give it a percent or maybe 2 percent at max because of base stats.

One last edit: A few days back a little taru rng/war gave me a run for my money on Colibri. But I have to say being a thief and a rng I think that ranger benefits from the dmg increase from piercing alot more than thief.
 
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Crosis said:
LolLufaise? What am I partying with a Thf cannon? Cause Nins and Wars sure have gimp damage there.

As for Range I've done it many times with plenty of chains over 10. You act like you cant sleep a mob if its hitting you? And please do tell me how Blink and Stoneskin which is 4 hits+ is weaker then 3 Ni shadows which you have to STOP to recast? And if one hit does indeed get through by the time I get to camp, I can easily Cure III myself with my 400+mp pool. If one hit ever gets through on /Nin guess who has to heal that.

And plenty of times you have to pull in Mire and Thickets, there are usually multiple parties you have to outclaim or go far to grab an unclaimed mob.

Just because they do *less* damage than usual doesn't mean the xp is not feasible. You're not going to get 25k/hr there, but you can certainly do at least 12k. The one advantage lufaise offers is that it's usually open, and easily accessible, because unskilled players are afraid to xp there. It sure beats competing with 5 other parties in bhaflau for crap xp.

When caedarva/bhaflau isn't crowded, it doesn't even matter who is pulling. I "pulled" as rdm/whm up to chain 100-something in caedarva until the zone was crowded again. That doesn't make me the optimal puller, or even a good one for that matter. I would certainly not be able to do the same in uleguerand or lufaise, as I'd be too strained for MP to be running around.

I guess you've never xped in lufaise, as if you have, you'd certainly know that abraxes do not sleep. Also, your stoneskin doesn't last that many hits, unless you are fighting the wimpy T mobs in the aht urghan zones. If you're one of those guys who insist on xping in bhaflau despite there being 5 parties there and the astral caddy being taken, yeah sure, your argument is very legitimate.

But that wasn't what I was saying in the first place. I was saying that if you are mass chaining in areas with *actually dangerous mobs*, that sub nin is often more beneficial to the brd and the party.

Just because one sub works in one scenario doesn't mean it's the ultimate choice for all scenarios.
 
Scaevola said:
Kind of a moot point, to be fair. Mithra will out-damage any other race, and if anyone beats a Mithra, they'd have done better as a Mithra themselves.

Of course, whether this has anything to do with the fact that Mithra have more DEX has yet to be established lolololololololol

how about no? i out dmged mithras as elv alot... str 4tw
 
Scaevola said:
When it means you're doing less damage with SATA (your only meaningful source of damage as a THF) than you could be as a /NIN, yes, you are nerfing your damage.

You underestimate dagger damage. The numbers are low, but they come at you fast. WS are a high portion of any merit cannon melee's damage, but even for a thief, DOT shouldn't be ignored entirely.

Sneak Attack Damage is determined by a DEX coefficient. Trick Attack is determined by an AGI coefficient. I understand that this may be an alien concept to classess who don't have key abilities determined this way, but when you're dealing with abilities that work as coefficients of certain stats, every single stat point counts. This is why some MNKs sub /WHM for phat Chi Blasts. How does NIN's higher DEX and AGI bonuses, plus 3 more dex from scimitar and later calveley's, not equal more damage for the THF?

Scimitar is a sword, which you shouldn't be using.

Also, attack modifies sneak attack damage too. It's a guaranteed critical hit, but that doesn't mean PDIF is completely ignored.

TP generation is based on weapon speed. When dual wielding, each weapon generates an average of the two weapons' TP gains. Weapon speed doesn't matter because if your off-hand is a slower weapon speed, you generate more TP per hit to compensate.

TP generation is also based on hitting the mob, which is significantly harder with a D-rated Sword skill compared to A- Dagger.

And /NIN gives you an extra hit per weapon skill. I was putting up 600+ VBs as a THF/NIN against bats and flies in Gustav Tunnel at level 38.

You only get the extra hit if your offhand weapon is the same class of weapon as your main hand, so your poor offhand sword won't do jack for your WS.

I'm not sure how that's relevant. But regardless, I'm sure the fact that the tank could hold hate under that circumstance had nothing to do with the fact that a THF opened the fight with a SATA.

He didn't say he SATAed at the start. In fact, he didn't say when the SATA happened at all, but presumably the mob survived it, based on the fact that it was alive enough for the PLD to take hate back.

Scaevola said:
except for the part where its not

THF damage at that level is so low outside of SATA as to be insignificant. Though I am extremely dubious of the idea that the added STR from WAR contributes anything meaningful to THF auto-attacking, I highly doubt it's more than the 10% more damage you're getting from DW. As for SATA, are you seriously going to try to make the claim that /WAR, without Berserk, can beat the added DEX, AGI, DEX offhand, and extra WS hit of /NIN?

/WAR gives an Attack Bonus job trait that /NIN doesn't. 10 attack. It's not STR from the sub.

And then, 3/5 of the time, you'll have Berserk on for another +25% attack... which is quite a lot.

Are you saying MNKs never sub WHM for bigger Chi Blasts? None of the examples you've given involve coefficients, except in the case of VIT for MNKs wrt Chakra.

Sure they do, but using a subjob to enhance one ability shouldn't be done at the expense of all others if you might need them. MNK/WHM is fine because when a MNK is set up for chi blast, they probably won't be meleeing anything any time soon. MNK/WHM is really only used in Sky, and if you're doing a God or Kirin run, you won't really be killing anything else.

Of course not. I don't get hit every pull. I usually go entire nights without getting hit on pulls, because I've done a lot of it. But as I'd mentioned earlier, shit happens. You cannot possibly say that you will NEVER get hit, and even if you don't die from a THF's paper-thin defense, you're sure as hell eating a lot of mana in getting heals you shouldn't have had to take in the first place.

No, I never recast Utsu on every pull. Usually, it came down to casting once every 15-20 minutes from the errant hit. For shit like raptors where I was getting hit more often, I'd usually recast at about 3% of the last mob's health so that I'd be up and ready to go.

You sound like a good puller... welll, it at least makes up for your inept DD.

I was responding to your comment in the context of TP generation, saying that regardless of weapon delay, dual-wielding, etc., TP generation for THF/NIN is pretty constant. Wasn't that the whole point of eliminating the TP floor?

TP gain is pretty constant until you equip a sword and start whiffing indiscriminately.... that, or you're so bogged down with Sushi and Accuracy gear that you'll end up doing complete crap damage per swing.

Ok, record of 570 on Beetles in Altepa around 41. And you weren't getting TP faster than me before 50.

And I had Utsusemi, thus eating literally 0 healing mana over the course of the night.

Hey, I nearly broke 600 myself on my THF37 (/NIN for pulling) fighting crawlers. Do I get a cookie?
 
Lets do it, no gear, just weapons.

I sold most of my gear to do BRD, so I'm looking rather gimped atm.
 
It's also quite different at your level Firestreak, you aren't even 70 yet nor are you using minstrels ring and other gear I have been mentioning. If retards are waking mobs that shouldn't be and not voking I will leave the party it's quite simple.

metachronism said:
Just because they do *less* damage than usual doesn't mean the xp is not feasible. You're not going to get 25k/hr there, but you can certainly do at least 12k. The one advantage lufaise offers is that it's usually open, and easily accessible, because unskilled players are afraid to xp there. It sure beats competing with 5 other parties in bhaflau for crap xp.

If you are happy with 12k vs 20-25k elsewhere more power to ya. Lufaise is one of the worst places to exp. Triple Attack Abraxes and Max HP down from Rams is never good. Speaking of that, guess who has to Erase and cure all your HP if you do get Max Hp down?

metachronism said:
I guess you've never xped in lufaise, as if you have, you'd certainly know that abraxes do not sleep. Also, your stoneskin doesn't last that many hits, unless you are fighting the wimpy T mobs in the aht urghan zones. If you're one of those guys who insist on xping in bhaflau despite there being 5 parties there and the astral caddy being taken, yeah sure, your argument is very legitimate.

Abraxes do sleep they are just resistant, Blink and Stoneskin = Ni in damage prevention. You want to stop and cast Ni while running thats an extra 2 hits easy for the mob before you even start running again, assuming no Double Attack even, lot of help that would really do. Then you have to go out and pull again and Ni won't be ready, so you have to use slow casting Ichi. Ideally Bard pulling here isn't the best idea with either sub and you should be roaming. However, this might be the only area I could see Nin sub being more useful and that is only because you can't sleep Abraxes well.

metachronism said:
But that wasn't what I was saying in the first place. I was saying that if you are mass chaining in areas with *actually dangerous mobs*, that sub nin is often more beneficial to the brd and the party.

How exactly is subbing Nin beneficial to the party? The party gets nothing out of you subbing Nin. I often have nearly full mp and am able to cast Dia 2 on mobs if the healer is resting. Not to mention occasional back up cures for the party and myself.

Skoffins aren't dangerous? I can pull them easy with my "weak" buffs and not get hurt. And I've stated how Demons aren't any tougher. The only exception are Abraxes which are fast and resistant to sleep. And ideally the people I party with aren't going to want to go there, nor is the majority of the server. Nin's hate tanking these and their damage is weakened, as well as Wars.

metachronism said:
Just because one sub works in one scenario doesn't mean it's the ultimate choice for all scenarios.

I never said /RDM was the ultimate sub because /WHM is more useful in other areas like Sky on Aura Weapons/Statues.
 
Crosis said:
It's also quite different at your level Firestreak, you aren't even 70 yet nor are you using minstrels ring and other gear I have been mentioning. If retards are waking mobs that shouldn't be and not voking I will leave the party it's quite simple..

Well my static partner and me can party together either 1 or 2 times a week and I usually only have a few hours til I'll need to get to sleep, so leaving a party is usually not an option for me. What's preferable is when I'm leader myself but there's not always the needed jobs seeking.

As for different levels and gears, that was kinda my point, in that the OP states that in a general sense it's never acceptable to subjob nin. Now I've personally never wanted to sub nin but I think it's unfair to say I'd like to close the option off to me, especially when there are so many possible camps, levels setups, mobs, ext. For all you know sometime in my game career I'll want to use Brd/Nin, /Smn, /Cor or whatever. Always nice to leave the door open there. Beyond that, if a Brd/Nin isn't sponging any MP, is keeping all the songs up and is doing a good job pulling I don't see the point at complaining about them for their SJ choice.

In many cases BLM/RDM is the best possible sub for a situation over /WHM, and while people may pick /WHM in those situations using a less efficient combination they don't warrant themselves at being flamed.

The difference is not so big, it just seems outlandish which warrants closer scrutiny.
 
I'd be very interested in knowing how to get Stoneskin to last more than 1.5 hits (if even that) on Uleguerand demons. They hit *hard*, and don't have too much trouble eating through the Stoneskin on the first smack. And of course, Blink is thoroughly unreliable, so while it *can* stop 2 hits, it's quite possible (not only possible but likely, from my experience with the spell) that the mob will cheerfully whack you a few times and leave you still safely protected by both hits of that Blink that never kicked in.

For fast-hitting low-damage mobs (read: puks and imps), or for attacks that go through blinks, then yeah, of course Stoneskin > Utsusemi. But for *most* things that you want to pull, that hit hard enough that they eat through Stoneskin mighty quick, it doesn't justify the time or the MP. (Save yourself the time and spend about 1.5 times the MP on Cure 3, which is a fair tradeoff of MP to damage avoided/healed since subjob Stoneskin ain't blocking 200 damage anyway. Not to mention Cure 3 has a way shorter cast time and recast time.)

Basically it's situational. Pre-ToAU for example, a BRD puller would want, say, WHM sub in KRT but NIN sub in Uleguerand or Ru'Avitau. (The latter was more so Whirl of Rage wouldn't stun you, than any notable damage mitigation.) It's the same now, except with more camps. Flies and imps? Sub WHM so you can Curaga/2.

Mamool Ja Staging Point? More puks than mamool ja, sub WHM or RDM for Stoneskin (or Cure 3); more mamool ja than puks, sub NIN for Utsusemi, or you can *still* sub WHM or RDM if you're good at pull distances and have a fast way of sleeping things. (Minstrel's Ring is far and away the biggest bang for the equip slot, not to mention the most easily obtainable out of it, manteel, gomlek, rostrums, and loquacious.)

Older camps like Uleguerand or Ru'Avitau or Lufaise? NIN sub all the way. KRT, or supporting BLMs in manaburns, probably back to being better off with WHM sub.

To write off BRD/WHM puller *or* BRD/NIN puller is silly. Some situations call for one, some call for another. Of the three subs mentioned, RDM is the sub you could most easily do away with - it's basically WHM with faster casting and fewer useful spells.

Faster casting is useful if you need to get buffs back up and have a long pull ahead (if it's a short pull ahead or your buffs don't need recasting, faster casting isn't a priority), and generally such situations can be noticed and planned for in advance (i.e. recast buffs early when the next pull is short, so on the long pull you don't have to recast at all).

It's also useful when competing for pulls, but if you're competing for pulls then your choice of crowded location is probably hurting your exp/hr more than your puller's choice for sub anyway, at which point the faster casting sub is more about damage control to mitigate the loss of exp/hr caused by competition.

(That's not to say BRD/RDM puller is useless, because it *does* have its advantages in those situations, but those are more momentary advantages on this or that specific pull, compared to the overall "good for this exp camp no matter what" advantages that the other two subs have.)

And on a tangent, just to be extremely picky, Abraxas can be slept with Lullaby. They're immune to Sleep, and are heavily light-resistant so Lullaby is difficult to land too. But to be technical, they *are* sleepable by a bard puller. Just don't expect too impressive a success rate (and if you swap in debuffing gear to improve that, even more ouch at the damage when you get hit).
 
Well, I'm also arguing why I feel /Nin isn't better with people who do. People can sub whatever they want, doesn't mean it's accepted.
 
Soujiro said:
I stopped levelling blu at 44, and never subbed nin for it since it was pre-50, and anyone that understands dual wield knows that before DW2, it's essentially pointless.
DW1 is a 10% reduction to delay, DW2 is a 15%, why is DW2 where it becomes useful?
Crosis said:
My Brd/Whm and Brd/Rdm multiple chain 250+ parties beg to differ lol. People act like just cause Brd/Nin has Ni they will never take damage, get hit, and can pull quicker. Let's not forget AOE damage that go through shadows that the solo main healer will have to cure. Hello thar Cursed Sphere and Wind Shear.

Again Fast Cast from /Rdm allows you to sleep the mob after pulling it to camp without getting hit or losing a shadow unless its a quick mob, IE Puk. /Nin you can never help the healer and in the event you do take damage, because shit happens, you can't cure yourself.
As brd/nin, I get hit maybe twice per hour, and I get hit with maybe 1/4 of AoE attacks, as well as 1/4 of all Curagas...

If your melee are strong, Paeon V with an Ebony+1 can make up for a gimp healer, and you can still do endless mire chains, even with a rdm/blm main healing and you as brd/nin. I'd even bet that 5 nin or /nin and a brd/nin could chain endlessly in mire on double Paeon.
 
Don't know said:
And /NIN gives you an extra hit per weapon skill. I was putting up 600+ VBs as a THF/NIN against bats and flies in Gustav Tunnel at level 38.
Ok, and I was doing 575+ against bats in Garliage Citadel at 34. They are weak to piercing DMG, big deal.

I also partied with a THF/WAR at 65 who was hume, and he was doing 900+, I think his highest was just over 1,ooo. Then he had to go so I got a THF/NIN who was Elvaan from my LS to come out and take his place and he had the same gear and had a hard time doing 750+ on the same WS same setup same mob. Plus I think your DMG on beetles is a little exaderated.
 
Party Location. Mire

Party.

Ninja/war
Ninja/war
Ninja/war
Thf/nin
Thf/nin
Brd/nin

Chain 237 Bard puller.

Take special care against imps. Not so much because of silence but because of aga spells. If shadows drop on a silenced nin no major problem bouncing hate.

I did the same party setup another time but I was Brd/whm

Chain 257 before broke.

I pulled again in that case and was able to use silena on the pt, which helped. Both were efficient. I don't have alot of mp gear though so my mp had to be used almost exclusively on silena only since the only time I had to get mp was when I got a ballad2 on me before I went out to pull again.
 
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