Question to other Dynamis LS's

[metachronism]

BTW, you still avoid the question of what Dynamis LS you are in. I'm guessing none.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the question. Why should I make the members of my LS face your mental midgetry? You can guess what you like, but I am a glacier piece away from finishing a 3rd full set of af2, along with a few other pieces no one wanted. How this will provide anything for you (or anyone) to advance your argument is beyond me, but there you go.

 

[Raesylil]

Then you're basically saying you are a moron for not having the ninja (you) pull in the first place.

Thats not what he said nor implied. From what I take from what Uzor said, rather than kiting the mobs, he'd rather have the THF join in the killing and give the LS TH4 to get more drops. No where in the quote you used implied that he'd rather be doing the pulling.

So, as I asked before, they come as drg and smn because they value "fun" above their opportunity to get their drops?

To have fun or not to have fun is one's choice. If you're going to be playing the game, wouldn't it make much more sense to enjoy in what you do?
If there's a rather good number of DDs than those with the healing duties, then it is possible that they would come as smn or drg/whm.
Or as another possibility, they come as those jobs because it's their highest.
In either case, if you're not going to have fun in doing the things you do, then you would be better off not doing dynamis at all.

"Almost", missing which pulls was it? And this is bastok, right? The city with almost no aoes?

If you're not counting the scorpion Breakga as an AoE to potentially mess up the pace then I'm assuming that it is so.

So you must be "doing it wrong" too when you take them on occasion?

He already said they do take it on occasion, and it is based on chance somewhat. While killing the mob only takes maybe 20-40 seconds at most from what I have seen in the past runs I've been in, there are times when the mobs do it at the last minute.
It's not a matter of doing it right or wrong, but a race to kill the mobs fast enough before they get a chance to.

 

[metachronism]

Thats not what he said nor implied. From what I take from what Uzor said, rather than kiting the mobs, he'd rather have the THF join in the killing and give the LS TH4 to get more drops. No where in the quote you used implied that he'd rather be doing the pulling.

The premise was that he was keeping the mobs off the puller (thf) because he'd rather have the thf meleeing. Obviously, the statues are all linked, and they go after the puller if there is no intervention. If the desire was to have the thf meleeing for the TH, and that the ninja was dedicated to mob control in the first place (both which is what uzor said), having the ninja pull would be the obvious answer, wouldn't it?

To have fun or not to have fun is one's choice. If you're going to be playing the game, wouldn't it make much more sense to enjoy in what you do?
If there's a rather good number of DDs than those with the healing duties, then it is possible that they would come as smn or drg/whm.
Or as another possibility, they come as those jobs because it's their highest.
In either case, if you're not going to have fun in doing the things you do, then you would be better off not doing dynamis at all.

You are absolutely correct. It's up to the players to decide if they want to make their experience efficiency oriented or not. Given the choice of more drop opportunities and the said "fun", however, most people choose the former.

Yes, the issue about having only the jobs which aren't the merit favorites IS one of my main points, and the expectation by courtney et al that "most" would have them leveled to 75 is narrow-minded and elitist.

If you're not counting the scorpion Breakga as an AoE to potentially mess up the pace then I'm assuming that it is so.

If you are just joining, the discussion was about the healing costs associated with damage AOEs and healing utsusemi-less dds.

He already said they do take it on occasion, and it is based on chance somewhat. While killing the mob only takes maybe 20-40 seconds at most from what I have seen in the past runs I've been in, there are times when the mobs do it at the last minute.
It's not a matter of doing it right or wrong, but a race to kill the mobs fast enough before they get a chance to.

I am not the one making claims about doing it "right" or "wrong". As you said, it is probability based. The mob can mijin at over 50% and touting your plans which hope for it never happening is nothing short of foolish, is what I was saying.

 

[decidence]

If we could see how perpetual motion looked like, I think Meta and Uzor would be involved somehow.

 

[Uzor]

So all stunners should concentrate on keeping all NIN's stunned at all times, when they're not slept or not sleepable?

Would take quite a few stunners with recast and all... And I'm sure they're not better used elsewhere... Especially if it's in Xarcabard.

Granted, I've only done Dynamis for a little more than half a year, so I guess I'm not experienced enough to comment yet... Even worse, my only 75 job is WHM.

Last I checked, DRKs have stun too. Stun lasts roughly 3 sec for me. 3 sec can lower a mob's HP by a lot. 2 stuns make that 6 sec. All mobs use their 2 hours at around 50% HP, and at 50% HP, if you stun by then, you can nearly kill a mob in 2 stuns.

 

[Uzor]

So you have taken significant mijins. So your claim that "it never happens" is rather preposterous, isn't it? You're willing to put your main dd group in that high risk? You basically have to stop and wait for recovery if the mijin (and possibly subsequent AOEs) take out that dd party. Again, basic logistics.

I never said it never happens. I've said in all of my posts that it do happen when we're unlucky. A Mijin Gakure slips by every now and then in all shells. Our main DD group isn't at any higher risk then anyone else when mijin gakures rarely kill anyone.

Then you're basically saying you are a moron for not having the ninja (you) pull in the first place.

No, because he only need to hit the mob once for TH to be active. Thus, he have plenty of time to hit it once once he gets to camp.

Only with stacking abilities *might* a paladin be able to keep the mob on himself in such an occasion, and if that is done, he has just jeopardized the ability timer for the next mob, slowing things down in the end. Once more, basic logistics. How many seconds is "seconds"? People firing WS at that kind of a timing will trigger the mob 2hr for sure. In which case, that mnk is likely to eat whatever flavor the mob has--and guess which will go down first when the mob has the 2hr going, the berserked mnk, or the mob?

I don't know about your PLD's, but mine hold hate just fine. Minne earring, that mamool ja H.Q sword... there's lots of enmity equipment out there for PLD. Besides, you can just heal the person that gets hate as PLD, thus incresing the chance you'll get hate back.

Oh, you mean you didn't know typing /assist <t> on a mob jumps to the person with hate? Well, that explains one and another.

So what you're saying is that you didn't comprehend the damage comparison provided by courtney himself, and that you also fail at understanding the game mechanics. What else is new?

I did understand it just fine. I'm just trying to simplify it for morons (read: you).

So, as I asked before, they come as drg and smn because they value "fun" above their opportunity to get their drops?

They'll still get their drops. They don't slow us down. SMN's are very usefull in Dynamis (Too bad you don't seem to realize that... even though you keep preaching how usefull other jobs are). DRG is usefull too. And can kill almost as fast as a WAR. They can also act as a healer by subbing a mage job.

"Almost", missing which pulls was it? And this is bastok, right? The city with almost no aoes?

Yes. You keep arguing it's impossible. And if you'd have read my previous post, I clearly stated gustaberg gate + MH.

btw, to answer your pulling question. Yes, I do pull as RDM and NIN and WHM and BLM and BLU too. Our main puller knows the pulls better then I do, though, and almost always avoid things linking.

But yes, I quite often participate in pulls, or do the pulls myself. I've also suicide pulled quite often.

 

[metachronism]

I never said it never happens. I've said in all of my posts that it do happen when we're unlucky. A Mijin Gakure slips by every now and then in all shells. Our main DD group isn't at any higher risk then anyone else when mijin gakures rarely kill anyone.

There's no need to comment, as this is self-explained. Then again, uzor probably needs to be pointed out how dumb he looks by saying it never happens "if you do it right", but it happens to him "now and then."

No, because he only need to hit the mob once for TH to be active. Thus, he have plenty of time to hit it once once he gets to camp.

And you wouldn't do the alternative which would let the level 75 thf contribute more in damage by meleeing full time while leaving everything else constant is because...?

I don't know about your PLD's, but mine hold hate just fine. Minne earring, that mamool ja H.Q sword... there's lots of enmity equipment out there for PLD. Besides, you can just heal the person that gets hate as PLD, thus incresing the chance you'll get hate back.

Oh, you mean you didn't know typing /assist <t> on a mob jumps to the person with hate? Well, that explains one and another.

If I need to rub it in, you are the one who talks about DD in your LS taking hate and getting smacked, and I sure hope they are not stupid to the point where the open with WS. I'd like to see your pld "just heal" the guy that just ate an eagle eye and died, or took a hundred fists and died in a fraction of a second. I'd also like to see your pld using an addtional 88mp on every mob for no good reason. If they aren't being the targets of 2hrs, then it's a good thing--they are not as stupid as you and don't open with WS--but if you hadn't forgotten already, that's what we were talking about.

I did understand it just fine. I'm just trying to simplify it for morons (read: you).

If your intent is to simplify, you can start out by learning to use numbers. That's usually how people simplify. Oh oops, I did that already for you. And you can't bullshit around numbers like you'd want to, now can you?

They'll still get their drops. They don't slow us down. SMN's are very usefull in Dynamis (Too bad you don't seem to realize that... even though you keep preaching how usefull other jobs are). DRG is usefull too. And can kill almost as fast as a WAR. They can also act as a healer by subbing a mage job.

People like to run away into qualitative arguments when they know they've lost the quantitative ones, but really, what the hell is your point? Of course every job brings *some* positive factor to the table. But in terms of damage dealt and damage taken, no one can argue that there isn't a huge disparity. And if you'd like to disprove me by "simplifying", feel free to go back to the numbers to do so.

You'd be every drg's hero if you maintain that drgs can "almost kill as fast as war" Yeah, you miss the part about not being an MP sponge, but let me tell you that even if you don't care about taking hate, a drg isn't going to get anywhere near a war. Sub mage drg? That sounds great if people are comfortable being cured only when their HP goes below 50% 5 seconds after taking the damage, for a meager ~200HP (~300 with af2 head), and if the wyvern doesn't get smacked to hell with aoe.

Yes. You keep arguing it's impossible. And if you'd have read my previous post, I clearly stated gustaberg gate + MH.

...? I fail to see why you are so proud to display that you left the effigy shields and the majority of the post-boss mobs. I don't know what you mean by "MH", since that's where about half of all the post boss mobs spawn. In a question of "did you do x", responding to "well, we didn't, and left about half of the stuff. That's close enough, isn't it?" is usually not considered a very strong answer. I'm not even sure why you obsess on just bastok when aoes are being discussed.

btw, to answer your pulling question. Yes, I do pull as RDM and NIN and WHM and BLM and BLU too. Our main puller knows the pulls better then I do, though, and almost always avoid things linking.

But yes, I quite often participate in pulls, or do the pulls myself. I've also suicide pulled quite often.

Did I express interest in whether you pull or not? No. All I'm saying is that you don't have much reason to be proud of "keeping 3 statues" off a the puller, as that was a self-introduced problem in the first place, and it has nothing to even do with what you wrote it in response to, which was the advantages of utsusemi. Guess what, the statues are so slow that it doesn't matter if you have utsusemi or not. Where it is relevant is when you are keeping it off mages once they have landed a barrage of spells on it, which is not what you were doing.

 

[meeze]

If we could see how perpetual motion looked like, I think Meta and Uzor would be involved somehow.

truest shit i ever read.

 

[Uzor]

There's no need to comment, as this is self-explained. Then again, uzor probably needs to be pointed out how dumb he looks by saying it never happens "if you do it right", but it happens to him "now and then."

Yes, I said they don't use it if done right. Are you trying to say it's possible to do somethin right every single time?

And you wouldn't do the alternative which would let the level 75 thf contribute more in damage by meleeing full time while leaving everything else constant is because...?

Simple. Because the THF is a damn good puller.

If I need to rub it in, you are the one who talks about DD in your LS taking hate and getting smacked, and I sure hope they are not stupid to the point where the open with WS. I'd like to see your pld "just heal" the guy that just ate an eagle eye and died, or took a hundred fists and died in a fraction of a second. I'd also like to see your pld using an addtional 88mp on every mob for no good reason. If they aren't being the targets of 2hrs, then it's a good thing--they are not as stupid as you and don't open with WS--but if you hadn't forgotten already, that's what we were talking about.

Yes. Everyone takes hate occasionally. And a FYI, I'm not the one that said "if the melee WS's at 95% HP". That was you. I never once reccomende dthe melees to WS when a mob has full HP, that's you.

As for MNK mobs, the only times someone dies by a MNK mob is if our PLD is dies.. which doesn't happen much, mind you.

If your intent is to simplify, you can start out by learning to use numbers. That's usually how people simplify. Oh oops, I did that already for you. And you can't bullshit around numbers like you'd want to, now can you?

Reason I tried to simplyfy it further, is due to your lack of understanding numbers. You're even denying the numbers you provided are wrong.

People like to run away into qualitative arguments when they know they've lost the quantitative ones, but really, what the hell is your point? Of course every job brings *some* positive factor to the table. But in terms of damage dealt and damage taken, no one can argue that there isn't a huge disparity. And if you'd like to disprove me by "simplifying", feel free to go back to the numbers to do so.

I never once said that DRG's take less damage then a WAR/NIN if they take hate. That's you in your little dream world making up pretend arguments.

You'd be every drg's hero if you maintain that drgs can "almost kill as fast as war" Yeah, you miss the part about not being an MP sponge, but let me tell you that even if you don't care about taking hate, a drg isn't going to get anywhere near a war. Sub mage drg? That sounds great if people are comfortable being cured only when their HP goes below 50% 5 seconds after taking the damage, for a meager ~200HP (~300 with af2 head), and if the wyvern doesn't get smacked to hell with aoe.

They're not an MP sponge if they don't take hate, see? You're still playign the retard-card I see. Let me tell you something though, the retards I know would atleast understand arguments.

...? I fail to see why you are so proud to display that you left the effigy shields and the majority of the post-boss mobs. I don't know what you mean by "MH", since that's where about half of all the post boss mobs spawn. In a question of "did you do x", responding to "well, we didn't, and left about half of the stuff. That's close enough, isn't it?" is usually not considered a very strong answer. I'm not even sure why you obsess on just bastok when aoes are being discussed.

It's not half the post-boss mobs. It's about 10 statues. But yes, we did leaver them. We decided it'd be too hard to kill them with a group of 25 and warped out.

Did I express interest in whether you pull or not? No. All I'm saying is that you don't have much reason to be proud of "keeping 3 statues" off a the puller, as that was a self-introduced problem in the first place, and it has nothing to even do with what you wrote it in response to, which was the advantages of utsusemi. Guess what, the statues are so slow that it doesn't matter if you have utsusemi or not. Where it is relevant is when you are keeping it off mages once they have landed a barrage of spells on it, which is not what you were doing.

It's not 3 statues of the puller. Oh no. You seem to completely miss the point there. The point is to keep the statues of the mages after sleepga.

And yes, I know the statues are so slow it doesn't matter if you have shadows up or not. Which is why we also have the extra PLD provoke and flash them.

And it's not needed to keep them off the mages after they've cast a barrage of spells. You know why? Because they're dead after the first spell.

 

[metachronism]

Logistics 101:

1) the primary bottleneck of doing damage is NOT how fast you get 100tp and how much damage your WS does. If you fail to see that, there's not much I can do for you. If you live in la-la land like courtney where the balance between damage dealt and damage received as a consequence doesn't exist, THEN you can make the argument that the differences between the jobs are minimal.

2) the disparity in xp that different merit parties sees comes *exactly * from 1). Some jobs can ignore the the hate level of the "tank" beause they can use WS whenever they please (hint: starts with U and ends with TSUSEMI) and not suffer any consequences. Surely you're not going to argue that being able to use WS any time is worse than having to wait? This is exactly the premise of the WS at high HP. Army of nins, war/nins, mnk/nins can do it. drg/war and bst/war's can't. Some people have a lot of trouble grasping this concept.

Can a non-utsusemi casting melee spam WS at 95% or not? You answered yes the first time, and then now you're saying no. Make up your fucking mind.

Oh really? You mean it can use a beserked asuran fist at 95% and the mob is gonna stay on the pld? Great.

Yes. And if it doesn't, the mob will die within seconds anyway.

Again, this is why all the efficiency-minded merit parties involve melees that can use utsusemi. Guess what, the utsusemi advantage grows even stronger when you have 15+ people instead of 3 on mobs to rotate utsusemi2 around with. When you have a band of merit-job melees with bards, the mobs just die as WS are spammed from the get go. *that* is the difference between having a bunch of merit melee and the "others."

It's the difference between going out at level 75 on a merit party with a pld tank with drg/war and drk/war as DD, as opposed to going with nin, war/nin, mnk/nin. The gap happens to be exacerbated when you scale the numbers, because the mob attack interval doesn't change despite the number of shadows at disposal growing.

Well, I think this is about as simple as it can get... But I'm pretty sure uzor can *still*somehow fail to comprehend.

 

[Artem]

Let it go Uzor, it's apperant that his dynamis ls (if exists) takes over a minute per mob or more. That's probably why they worry about a berserked monk dieing by wsing at 95% of mob's hp. I don't see any other reason. Or maybe their tanks just plain suck. I think it's funny how he calls people elitist, and yet he is the only one who constantly goes around saying that only merit jobs can accomplish awesome things in dynamis, while everyone else says that if merit jobs can do it, other jobs can do it too with a little bit more time.

 

[Bigboy]

I can't say I've ever been able to read a full Meta post before, and am always amazed when I see these dialogues go back and forth between people and him. My bullshit detector starts wailing almost immediately after the first sentence in each of his posts. Not necessarily because he's lying, but because it is written in such a fluph filled way. I feel like I am reading some highschooler's paper in English class where he was told he had to spend 10 pages discussing why he wanted to take the class, when the answer is 1 line: "Because I had to to graduate."

I've never actually read a post of Meta's that wasn't trying to slam someone, but I've also never read one that succeeded. Most of the time I can only bother myself to read quotes of him that people are replying to, and if it's outlandish enough of a quote, I got look for the actual post it came from. What really bothers me about people arguing with him is that I don't think ANYONE but him ever thinks he is right. I mean, at some point, it should have been obvious it was pointless to even talk to him. All I've ever heard from people is that he's some racist jackass that likes to try and come in and pwn other people by simply dissagreeing, proof rarely given to support his own arguments. His most classic line of explaining something is "If you don't already know, you're an idiot."

This is a brick wall. By proportions and attitude, I would say the Berlin Wall, to be specific.

 

[metachronism]

Let it go Uzor, it's apperant that his dynamis ls (if exists) takes over a minute per mob or more. That's probably why they worry about a berserked monk dieing by wsing at 95% of mob's hp. I don't see any other reason. Or maybe their tanks just plain suck. I think it's funny how he calls people elitist, and yet he is the only one who constantly goes around saying that only merit jobs can accomplish awesome things in dynamis, while everyone else says that if merit jobs can do it, other jobs can do it too with a little bit more time.

I fail to see how the hypothetical war/mnk talk leads to the conclusion that anyone takes a certain amount of time on a mob? Care to explain the flow of logic in that?

If you have been reading (oh wait, I should stop thinking about such unlikely events) it was uzor who was talking about a mnk/war being go all out and get away with it in Dynamis. Would you care to find me a pld who can keep every mob on himself (take careful note of the word "every") when people open with WS on a mob? That is not a matter of skill or equipment. The hate level that the pld can build in such a short time is nowhere near the hate generated by the WS damage.

It's about as idiotic as claiming that a classic pld tank party can crank out the same xp/hr as as nin nin war party in nyzul.

And if you are going to go back to "well you wouldn't use WS so early..." you fail at understanding logistics 101, the post *right* before yours.

 

[metachronism]

I can't say I've ever been able to read a full Meta post before, and am always amazed when I see these dialogues go back and forth between people and him. My bullshit detector starts wailing almost immediately after the first sentence in each of his posts. Not necessarily because he's lying, but because it is written in such a fluph filled way. I feel like I am reading some highschooler's paper in English class where he was told he had to spend 10 pages discussing why he wanted to take the class, when the answer is 1 line: "Because I had to to graduate."

I've never actually read a post of Meta's that wasn't trying to slam someone, but I've also never read one that succeeded. Most of the time I can only bother myself to read quotes of him that people are replying to, and if it's outlandish enough of a quote, I got look for the actual post it came from. What really bothers me about people arguing with him is that I don't think ANYONE but him ever thinks he is right. I mean, at some point, it should have been obvious it was pointless to even talk to him. All I've ever heard from people is that he's some racist jackass that likes to try and come in and pwn other people by simply dissagreeing, proof rarely given to support his own arguments. His most classic line of explaining something is "If you don't already know, you're an idiot."

This is a brick wall. By proportions and attitude, I would say the Berlin Wall, to be specific.

Thank you for coming in and writing a "10 page paper written by a high school student" which amounts to the one-liner "I don't understand." It's especially saddening when the first line is a confession that you aren't reading.

The reason the posts keep getting longer and longer is because some people are incapable of understanding things when it is wrtten concisely with the assumption that people can deduce the obvious. Of course, the posts and counter-posts ensue until the person who didn't understand what was supposed to be obvious the first time finally sees it when he begins to contradict himself.

Tell me what you don't understand in the "logistics 101" post, to which I assume you're responding.

 

[Bigboy]

Thank you for coming in and writing a "10 page paper written by a high school student" which amounts to the one-liner "I don't understand." It's especially saddening when the first line is a confession that you aren't reading.

The reason the posts keep getting longer and longer is because some people are incapable of understanding things when it is wrtten concisely, assuming that people can deduce the obvious. Of course, the posts and counter-posts ensue until the person who didn't understand what was supposed to be obvious the first time finally sees it when he begins to contradict himself.

Tell me what you don't understand in the "logistics 101" post, to which I assume you're responding.

No I didn't read it. It's not that I don't understand, it's that it's all bullshit not worth reading.

Thats the whole point. You take a non-sequiter statement, and try to argue against it and make assumptions to argue against. That is all you have ever done, and that is why you have only ever been a failure in this arena. You are incabable of commenting in a concise, non-abbrasive, manner without being able to let people actually say something without assuming there is a different meaning to it.

If I were to sink to your level of rational, you admitted you were a racist by not debunking it in you last post.

See how stupid that is?

 

[metachronism]

Why are you arguing against something you didn't even read? Is your "bullshit detector" defective when it comes to your own posts?

 

[Bigboy]

Why are you arguing against something you didn't even read? Is your "bullshit detector" defective when it comes to your own posts?

See, I'm not arguing here. You're just assuming. I'm explaining a veiwpoint, and there have been no counters, thus no argument.

Edit: I'm gonna go get some Coffee. Peace!

 

[Nyaano]

See, I'm not arguing here. You're just assuming. I'm explaining a veiwpoint, and there have been no counters, thus no argument.

Edit: I'm gonna go get some Coffee. Peace!

And yet, without even reading, you somehow manage to dismiss his posts as bullshit?
Is that the smell of attention whore I notice in the air?

 

[Bajaratt]

Logistics 101:

1) the primary bottleneck of doing damage is NOT how fast you get 100tp and how much damage your WS does. If you fail to see that, there's not much I can do for you. If you live in la-la land like courtney where the balance between damage dealt and damage received as a consequence doesn't exist, THEN you can make the argument that the differences between the jobs are minimal.

Saying the limiting factor on how much damage you do isn't how fast you can weaponskill nor how much that weaponskill does, but how much mp you will eat up keeping you alive is completely backwards logic. That's like saying the primary bottleneck to doing kirin is Despot; it's something you need, but the actual statement is just wrong. Your survivability has nothing to do with the amount of damage you can put up. Survivability is not something to be neglected, no; but it's a completely independent thing to consider than simply damage.

Monk is the perfect example of this. In most merit party's, monk has to severely hinder their damage in order to improve their survivability rate. If it wouldn't get me killed every fight, I'd never sub nin on my monk, but I happen to love 20k/hour exp parties, so I sub nin. Monks also sub war in dynamis except for in xarc, everywhere else there's not much reason for nin sub; so your "reasoning" is still flawed because they're not subbing nin. There's also nothing actually stopping the other jobs from subbing nin, but since you ignore that people can change jobs, might as well forget about that.

If I used my monk's tanking set, I would survive considerably more, but then I would also be doing significantly less damage. Anyone with half a brain would be wearing full damage gear and as soon as they pull hate, use whatever means they have to survive, be it third eye, super jump or changing your gear to a more defensive set.

 

[meeze]

And yet, without even reading, you somehow manage to dismiss his posts as bullshit?
Is that the smell of attention whore I notice in the air?

If you've read Metas posts in the past, you know he's full of shit.