Racial profiling to be legalized!

Hexx

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I hope the bill dies a quick death. It's just inviting a bunch of ignorant bullshit and harassment. Somehow I doubt the cops will be asking Anglos to show their papers on a regular basis. Fuck the Mexicans; it's those bastards from Norway we have to watch out for.
 
Or . . . howzabout we make it just a little tougher to get an I.D. here?

Even as a native(in more ways than one) U.S. citizen, I'm required to either keep a valid I.D. or be prepared to be detained until my identity can be confirmed. Make the I.D. tougher to get in the first place, and problem solved as far as I'm concerned.

Also, forgive me for saying so, but what is it that disturbs us so about racial profiling? My guess is that it's the "racial" part.

Face facts, guys - to varying degrees, we all profile, and racially is just one among a myriad of ways. We may try not to, we may mentally chastise ourselves for it, but we all, by virtue of simple human nature, by virtue of the learning process even, base our initial impressions off of what we see. Beyond that, we're not even the only species that does it. Here's an example:

When I was a kid, we had a gigantic German Shepherd named Rodney. He looked fierce, and under the right circumstances, he was fierce, but unless you were 1) a stranger; 2) in our yard; 3) doing something catastrophically stupid like trying to jimmy open a window, he was quite content to be your bestest pal. Well one day(I think I was 8 at the time), a new meter reader came to our house. I was out in the yard playing with Rodney and told the guy that Rodney wouldn't bother him, even watched as Rodney came over to make his introduction, let the guy pet him, and even let him take his frisbee and fling it out across the yard for him to chase. About that time, a friend of mine showed up on his bike and I walked over to talk to him, my back to the meter reader. My friend hadn't said more than two words to me when he stopped short and said, "What the hell?" looking over my shoulder. I turned and was just in time to see this jackass spray my big, friendly dog with pepper spray for absolutely no good reason. None at all. We called and reported the guy, then waited to see who showed up to read the meter next time.

Flash forward to next month.

Power company truck pulls up and I'm relieved to see that it's our old meter reader. Sittin there in the truck with his elbow cocked out the window, he listens in anger as I tell him what happened. He tells me that he was on vacation last month and that he's sorry to hear that happened. He gets out and walks over to read the meter. Rodney comes stalking around from the back of the house and I have little doubt that he'd have taken a nice, juicy chunk outta that guy's ass if I hadn't been there to scold him down. Thing is, Rodney knew the guy, had been petted by him, played with him, been around him month in and month out for most of his doggy life - knew his scent. Now, however, none of that mattered. He looked like the other guy and the other guy was bad. I wish I could tell you that he eventually got over it, but he never really did. From that day forward, anyone in a power company uniform was to be feared and mistrusted.
​
Now, as people, we're blessed with an intellect that allows us to look beyond first impressions, but that doesn't change the fact that we have them. Every time you form a first impression, in short, every time you meet someone new, you are guilty of having just profiled someone based on their appearance, personality, and comportment. Does it mean you were right in your summary judgment? Of course not, but that's not to say that you were altogether off-base in all of your assumptions about them. That's something that only further exposure(investigation, if you will), and time will make clear.

Even more to the point, why is profiling such a dirty word? It's part of the arsenal of investigative techniques in virtually every branch of law enforcement. For instance, looking for a serial killer? Odds are he's a single white guy in his late twenties to early forties, so why not start lookin there first? That's profiling with age, gender, marital status, and race as criteria. Should we do away with that too, just so they can canvas the neighborhoods questioning paraplegic, septuagenarian grandmothers in the name of equality?
 
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Or . . . howzabout we make it just a little tougher to get an I.D. here?

Also, forgive me for saying so, but what is it that disturbs us so about racial profiling? My guess is that it's the "racial" part.

Face facts, guys - to varying degrees, we all profile, and racially is just one among a myriad of ways. We may try not to, we may mentally chastise ourselves for it, but we all, by virtue of simple human nature, by virtue of the learning process even, base our initial impressions off of what we see. Beyond that, we're not even the only species that does it.
[/INDENT]
[/INDENT]Now, as people, we're blessed with an intellect that allows us to look beyond first impressions, but that doesn't change the fact that we have them. Every time you form a first impression, in short, every time you meet someone new, you are guilty of having just profiled someone based on their appearance, personality, and comportment. Does it mean you were right in your summary judgment? Of course not, but that's not to say that you were altogether off-base in all of your assumptions about them. That's something that only further exposure(investigation, if you will), and time will make clear.

Even more to the point, why is profiling such a dirty word? It's part of the arsenal of investigative techniques in virtually every branch of law enforcement. For instance, looking for a serial killer? Odds are he's a single white guy in his late twenties to early forties, so why not start lookin there first? That's profiling with age, gender, marital status, and race as criteria. Should we do away with that too, just so they can canvas the neighborhoods questioning paraplegic, septuagenarian grandmothers in the name of equality?

I think you missed the point.....
Getting the ID isn't really the problem here....
Most of the people they'd be *trying* to target would not have a valid ID in the first place.

The problem is that they are only picking on one race... in this case Hispanics. See the bill itself isn't a bad idea, we'd all like to crack down on illegal immigrants, but saying that a law only applies to Hispanics and not any other race is obviously not a fair statement. Forget the fact that police will begin profiling Hispanics only.... what they are trying to say is that you can enter the US illegally, so long as you are not Hispanic.

As for your point on profiling....
We do profile... but there is something wrong when you publically ACT on a misconception. THAT is where the problem lies. Be it racial, sexual, ethical or gender based.
If I say "American" words like rude, obnoxious pricks comes to mind, but as long as I keep that to myself and not let it affect my overall judgment or interactions with an individual my profiling is harmless, and it maybe even proven wrong with time. Sure some Americans maybe stupid, rude and obnoxious pricks, but that doesn't give me a right to say to the world that we shouldn't allow Americans in our borders because they are ALL stupid people. Neither does it give me a right to marginalize them from anything that I do.

No one ever said profiling was wrong.... but when you wield it as an excuse for unacceptable behaviour, then its wrong. Everything in Moderation... and by moderation I mean the right time and right place.

Additionally... while profiling is used in law enforcement... its still not foolproof. Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? None of the criminal profiling was correct in that case...You could probably put that down to dumb luck why that case was "solved" so quickly since the eventual bomber was arrested in another matter and subsequently linked to the case.
 
Where, exactly, does it say that this law targets only Hispanics?
 
Where, exactly, does it say that this law targets only Hispanics?

The same place it says "Japanese" in Executive Order 9066 during World War 2
 
The immigration issue has always been nothing more than thinly veiled racism. They're not fooling anyone.
 
For the life of me, I can't see where this legislation "short circuits" due process. Here's some examples of "profiling" that have absolutely nothing to do with race:

  • A cop sees a guy leave a bar, he's got good reason to believe that the odds are good that he's been drinking. Whether or not he's been drinking to excess is something he'll only know if he stops him and tests him.
  • There's a guy hanging out in an alley behind a closed business. Maybe he's homeless, maybe he's on drugs, maybe he's planning on robbing the place, . . . or maybe he's in some form of distress. The officer will only know if he goes over to question the guy.

Now if you will, point out how that form of "probable cause" is any different from this one:

  • A cop sees a crowd of guys hanging around outside a Home Depot at 6:00 in the morning, most, if not all of them, look Hispanic. Probably they're looking for work, maybe some of them are here illegally. Checking for documentation is the only way he'll know for sure.

See? I have a different outlook on this because once upon a time, I was stopped on several occasions because I just so happened to work night shift in an area that was predominately African American. They were looking for someone who'd been killing prostitutes. Big surprise that a guy who ostensibly looks white driving around in the late hours of the evening in a Black neighborhood would arouse suspicion. They eventually caught the guy and he was nowhere near what statistics told them to expect. Not only was I a "victim" of racial profiling, it turns out that in this instance, the profile wasn't even a good fit for the killer. Should I have raised a big stink because I'd been discriminated against?

Of all the things in this article the one that I found the most laughable is this:

"Senate Bill 1070 "is exactly why the federal government must act on immigration reform," said Democratic leader Jorge Luis Garcia in a written statement. "We cannot have states creating a jigsaw puzzle of immigration laws. This bill opens the doors to racial profiling with the provision that allows an officer to ask for citizenship papers from someone who only looks illegal."​

If police stop a guy on suspicion of public intoxication, aren't they stopping him because he looks drunk? If the guy happens to suffer from Cerebral Palsy, has he just been a victim of Motor Neuron profiling? In truth, yes he has, but being able to prove he's not drunk means no harm, no foul, right?

Yes, there are people of many nationalities in this country illegally, but from a statistical standpoint, if you're an illegal, odds are you're Hispanic. Law enforcement would be fools not to look there first.

Part of the problem, I think, is that we're too quick to damn people who choose to serve in a policing capacity. To be good at their jobs, they have to be able to play "What's wrong with this picture?" with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Problem is, when they're wrong, we, as a society, are quick to label them as racists and bigots. When they're right . . . well . . . they're just doing what they're paid to do . . .

Don't get me wrong, I see your points, everyone's, about this being dangerously close to racism, but when the overwhelming majority of your "perps" all hail from the same ethnic group, isn't any crackdown going to look like racism whether it is or not?
 
Reauland, the day I see AZ cops pulling over a blonde, blue-eyed person and ask them for their proof of residency/citizenship is the day I believe there is no racial bias in this bill.
 
So long as they always remember to plant a weapon I am fine with this.
 

And no Hexx, you generally won't see the Aryan supermen getting pulled to have their papers checked, mostly because they represent a relatively insignificant fraction of the total number of illegal immigrants.
 
Exactly raes, which automatically makes this a racially motivated bill. Besides, a state has no business giving their local rent-a-cops the power of a federal ICE or Border Patrol agent.
 
It makes it a racially inconvenient bill, in fact.

As a general rule, people don't particularly care what nationality the cheap labor that doesn't speak their language and is in the country illegally is. They just want the laws to be enforced.

Which this bill would assist in, much as a wide variety of people might complain about it.

The bill offers temptation to abuse, but that in and of itself is nothing new, and there are a wide variety of bills that encompass similar levels of discretionary power on the part of police that don't elicit the same vehement response.

Oh, and calling state and municipal police forces "rent-a-cops" is just insulting.
 
Frankly if I was an officer of the law, if you don't speak in understandable American English language in public settings, you should have your citizenship questioned. I understand it may be easier to communicate in your native tongue, but it's obvious you're not from here, or are very close to those who are not if you don't speak the language fluently enough. I'm not saying that all people must cast aside language and cultural heritage but simply put, even children of immigrants speak understandable English due to school and social interaction. I currently am employed in retail and it absolutely frustrates me when I cannot understand the people who come into my store every day. Whether they speak Spanish, Chinese, Russian, or Arabic, it matters not, I speak English, which is the national language. (to put a small aside here, I don't understand sign language but I can communicate easier with a deaf person than one who doesn't speak my language) Our country is a melting pot of culture and heritage, but communication is key. So when I say this, I mean no disrespect to those who make an honest effort to adapt, and take the legal steps required, but if you refuse to take OUR culture and heritage seriously, maybe you don't belong here.
 
The immigration issue has always been nothing more than thinly veiled racism. They're not fooling anyone.

Heh, tell that to those of us who realized we gave almost half our income to the government earlier this month and still owed more. I'm lovin' it though; Illegal immigration is good, stimulus is good, and suddenly workin' your ass off to gain a high income job is now punished, FTL.

Every immigrant in the U.S. should be forced to show papers at any time deemed necessary by the government. The only downside to this is if you're an illegal immigrant and if you're illegal your shitting on not only those of us who pay taxes but double on those immigrants who did it properly. I get where you guys of the "love everyone and peace on Earf" come from, but calling this racism is just ridiculous beyond a norm. What they are calling for is no different than me having to show proof of age at the store when buyin' tobacco, or something. Should the people of illegal age be able to cry foul play when they're asked to provide proof of age? Absolutely not, it's not racism, it's the damn law.
 
And no Hexx, you generally won't see the Aryan supermen getting pulled to have their papers checked, mostly because they represent a relatively insignificant fraction of the total number of illegal immigrants.

Not to mention the fact that the "needle" is a lot easier to spot if you've already started dealing with the haystack. I understand your concerns, Hexx, I truly do, but law enforcement has to be allowed to first focus their efforts where they're most likely to get results.
 
Not to mention the fact that the "needle" is a lot easier to spot if you've already started dealing with the haystack. I understand your concerns, Hexx, I truly do, but law enforcement has to be allowed to first focus their efforts where they're most likely to get results.

See that? You already realize the bill is targeting Hispanics.
Hexx's point still stands... when they pull over someone of non-Hispanic descent then they can come back and say that the bill isn't racist.
And your commentary is pretty much mirroring that sentiment.

What makes illegal Mexicans easier targets then any other ethnic group? And how do you know the others are significantly smaller? They are here illegally after all, and logically, that should mean the exact numbers are unknown.
Unless you know something we don't. I mean if you have evidence that hispanics are more likely to be illegal immigrants then Filipinos, Chinese, Western Europeans, Canadians then please let us know, so that the nice people in Arizona can help the rest of the country become more secure. Because then they'd KNOW who to pull over and they won't anger the same person they've pulled over five times in the same day.

To do List for the summer:
1) Walk across US/Canada border
2) Get a job in Arizona
3) Place bet with Hexx to see if law enforcement will pull me over
4) Win bet because law enforcement will be too busy pulling over hispanics to care about me
 
3) Place bet with Hexx to see if law enforcement will pull me over
4) Win bet because law enforcement will be too busy pulling over hispanics to care about me

Yes, because you'll be one of the only freakin' Canadians illegally immigrating to Arizona.

There are vastly more Mexican illegal immigrants than anywhere else, because it's the only place where you have the delightful combination of a country that is significantly poorer than the United States, and the ability to cross the border on foot. Canada doesn't, as a general rule, serve as the source for vast numbers of illegals (though there are some who enter the country through Canada), in part because the country isn't a festering shithole like Mexico can be.

And probable cause still applies here. The cop can't just stand in the middle of the road and snag every latino that walks by. He can, however, swing by the Home Depot and question the bunch of day laborers standing around waiting for work.
 
Yes, because you'll be one of the only freakin' Canadians illegally immigrating to Arizona.

There are vastly more Mexican illegal immigrants than anywhere else, because it's the only place where you have the delightful combination of a country that is significantly poorer than the United States, and the ability to cross the border on foot. Canada doesn't, as a general rule, serve as the source for vast numbers of illegals (though there are some who enter the country through Canada), in part because the country isn't a festering shithole like Mexico can be.

And probable cause still applies here. The cop can't just stand in the middle of the road and snag every latino that walks by. He can, however, swing by the the gas station near the Home Depot and question the bunch of day laborers standing around waiting for work.

fixed in bold.
 
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