rdm melee debate continued

[Mishaela]

I'm still incredibly doubtful that a RDM/NIN would out-DoT a WAR with a Ridill and the handicap of an offhand Joyeuse, unless there's additional skews in the parse such as RDM Hasting himself and the WAR not getting Haste at all. And even with that it's somewhat doubtful; the number of hits on top of damage gives WAR a large edge vs the RDM just from that, let alone the access to Bergressor and a -much- larger array of melee gear.

I've virtually never run a parse because most of the tests I've run have never been important enough for such a thing to be needed, but I can safely say that when I'm doing Hexas for 800-1500 and the RDM is doing omfgsavageblade for 400 max, Enspell ain't gonna help them pass me in damage. =P

RDM does in fact have more survivability than a WHM or a WAR. Yeah, they'll (WAR, WHM, etc) probably get slapped around a bit if they tried to melee a higher level mob and wound up tanking for too long. But at the same time that's not quite the argument here; it's wether or not RDM can do better damage or not, which unless they have noteworthy gear and their competition is average at best, they generally won't.

It's not at all a bad thing that RDM isn't a good melee when they excel so much in other categories. You can't make a job be the best in everything or no one would want to play anything else, you know?

Also, huge leap between the "RDM shouldn't melee" and the "DRG/BST are bad melee" mantras people have/used to have. Huge huge leap. =P


*edit* To add to my doubt of this claim of a RDM out-parsing a Ridill/lolwutJoyeuse WAR, the RDM stopping to debuff, toss two Hastes and a Refresh would also give the WAR quite a large advantage in terms of getting in extra hits. It really, really sounds like a large piece of the story is missing, if that person's story even happened.

 

[hellstorm]

They might have been "meant" to do that much, but in reality they're doing about 10-20% of a real damage dealer while also not doing their jobs as effectively.

A couple of the rdm/nin there on other server where rdm is more applicable to melee say that they can pull out 60% of a avg dd.

No, their specialty is SPELLS; hence why their magic skill is so much higher than their melee skills and they have that "mage" word at the end of their name. They're not fast enough nor do they hit nearly hard enough to compete with even a thf's DoT

No we have a high magic skill so we don't have to wear so much magic gear.

The only speed advantage RDM has over WHM is fast cast, which only works for MAGIC. It has nothing to do with melee ability.

I don't see whm using 278 delay weapon or a weapon that can swing twice, a rdm could hit the 25% haste cap pretty easy and that not even including the haste spell which we get automatically.

So now you're using parsers and they're ok? For the longest time you were whining about how they were hacks and cheats; but now they're ok when someone uses them to support rdm meleeing?

Lol you still do not recognize why I did stated that. /sigh Why am I not surprised. Parse is a cheat but I still use it, it the point that you think you are mr. perfect I don't cheat, but you do if you are using parse. Different topic though so last i'll speak about that.

Red mages weren't allowed to melee long before ToAU came out; no job should have the capability to fulfill every role in the game with the same or near effectiveness as every other job. If you want to melee, change your job, but stop being a fucking moron who thinks that red mages are even remotely useful as a damage dealer in a full exp party.

near effectiveness is the key word. A rdm can fulfill all the roles but never as good as the other jobs.

Only the red mages are retarded enough to think they should be a god class; SE should just remove your sword skill already just to shut you up. If you have the time to swing your sword a few times in between casts, then you could spend resting to regain your MP back. Get your ass back with the other mages and stay there.

Or they should give us the en-spell II so that we can actually compete with melee better as well as a acc buff and native vorpal blade. Which is what most rdm think that we be getting tier 2 en-spell next update. Also why should we be resting mp that why we have convert.

 

[hellstorm]

Arguing with Starfox about his abilities as a DD RDM is a very BAD idea. Unless you yourself have gone out and done this, with acceptable level of gear, you can not make judgments on it. Yes a melee built RDM will do significant damage, this has been proven time over time. A melee RDM with joyeuse and other "nice" gear will do crap ton of damage, I would say more then your average "AH DD". And before you start attempting to redefine the term "AH DD", its not a nooblet, its merely someone who falls into the 80% of the playerbase who can't acquire the R/EX items, or some of the HQ items. These are "average" players, average is by definition something that falls into the majority.

Anyhow, the DD capabilities of a RDM have already been proven so arguing against them is futile. Especially when your arguing with one of the experts who kinda led the way for other RDMs to design DD builds.

Damage Dealer is a ROLE, not a "JOB". Don't make the mistake of defining all <JOB>s by <ROLE>. Different jobs are better suited at various roles, tank, healer, support, DD. Of all those "DD" is the easiest to build for, as its simple manipulation of numbers within the attack/accuracy formulas. Hell if you want I can design a "WHM DD" that would do extremely well. This entire game is nothing but a bunch of numbers in a set of computers. Everything that you do, or is done, goes through a series of calculations based on numbers in a predefined formula. If you can manipulate those numbers to be in favor of yourself, then YES YOU CAN DD. Some jobs start off with certain numbers already in their favor, others don't. All thats required is at least a "B" rated skill in a weapon class (PUP gets away with a C). Some jobs force feed "DD" to players (WAR/MNK/DRK) while others require work get em there (SAM/DRG/THF/BLU/NIN/RNG) and some required ALOT of work (RDM/WHM/SMN/BRD/COR). BLM is in its own class because it can do better damage through nuking then through melee.

If your gonna argue against the PRO-melee crowd, you MUST produce numbers and proof because thats what we have. The argument "because I said so" doesn't work anymore.----------------------------
Saevel
Elvann Lakshmi
75RDM/75SAM/75BLU/75WAR/67DRK
SUB WAR/THF/NIN/WHM/BLM/DRK
RoTZ: Finished, CoP: Finished
Divine Might:O

since you say you can't understand me, Ill let saevel from Lakshmi post do the talking. This starfox guy seems to be the guru of rdm melee.

 

[Mishaela]

I agree that perhaps a tier II enspell (or perhaps making the element of the enspell mean something worth a damn) would be fun, but it'd very very unlikely be enough to give the job enough to be a better melee.

Saying that a RDM in the best gear they can get will out-damage an "AH DD" is a complete joke. Even with "only" AH gear, the average real melee will still have an enormous strength, attack and accuracy advantage over RDM from both gear as well as natural stats, not to mention an enormous base weapon damage advantage due to much better access to weapons.

I'm fairly sure there's not a single piece of melee gear that RDM can wear that's actually better than anything real melee jobs can wear, so honestly they're at a complete disadvantage in any and every way in terms of melee capabilities. All that "an hero" is even saying is that the most decked-out of RDMs can out-DD a moderately gimped player. Which not only is that not surprising, it's additionally something no one can brag about ever doing. =\

And to counter a possible "have you tried it?" - yes, I have. I've spent quite a bit in RDM gear including borrowing Alkys from a friend and WSing in all that fancy-rare crap, even seeing if Pahluwan Body or Blue Cote is better for WS and such. And it doesn't even touch my WHM's damage, who doesn't have Tabin Jupon +1 yet.

 

[hellstorm]

I agree that perhaps a tier II enspell (or perhaps making the element of the enspell mean something worth a damn) would be fun, but it'd very very unlikely be enough to give the job enough to be a better melee.

Saying that a RDM in the best gear they can get will out-damage an "AH DD" is a complete joke. Even with "only" AH gear, the average real melee will still have an enormous strength, attack and accuracy advantage over RDM from both gear as well as natural stats, not to mention an enormous base weapon damage advantage due to much better access to weapons.

I'm fairly sure there's not a single piece of melee gear that RDM can wear that's actually better than anything real melee jobs can wear, so honestly they're at a complete disadvantage in any and every way in terms of melee capabilities. All that "an hero" is even saying is that the most decked-out of RDMs can out-DD a moderately gimped player. Which not only is that not surprising, it's additionally something no one can brag about ever doing. =\

And to counter a possible "have you tried it?" - yes, I have. I've spent quite a bit in RDM gear including borrowing Alkys from a friend and WSing in all that fancy-rare crap, even seeing if Pahluwan Body or Blue Cote is better for WS and such. And it doesn't even touch my WHM's damage, who doesn't have Tabin Jupon +1 yet.

That not entirely true. He said the good rdm can out dmg a avg player. Where not talking antdog caliber, we are talking a war with harburk, maneater, woodville maybe haidate. the avg melee hit what ~50-60. now if a rdm is hitting around 30 and en- spells are doing 20 then that would give about a avg of 50. now even if we are doing avg thats pretty good, considering we are hasting 2 others as well as refreshing 2.

 

[Neisan]

Numbers would tell you a B skill and no pet (why PUP gets away with C skill)/Native melee traits or abilities is pathetic to try to melee with...

AH DD? Wearing what, full Sipahi? I've heard people on alla call dusk 'luxury' gear...


If you've got AJ, guess what, chances are the melee you're going up against gets better, or can wear it too, so that's out.


You did not mention 60% of a real DD as proof Rdm is an acceptable DD. You did not. I'll pretend you never posted that.


High magic skill? Are you kidding me? We have ONE A+ magic. One B+. Everything else is atrocious without gear to back it to become mediocre (Save healing, but no one cares about that anyway).


And, what 25% haste cap? Recast haste cap is 50%. Supposedly melee haste caps at 95%. And whm has blessed for haste+%.



If you ever played dot HACK Roots, you'd know why a 'Jack of all trades' job is actually a weakness in a MMO based on specializing...

 

[hellstorm]

And, what 25% haste cap? Recast haste cap is 50%. Supposedly melee haste caps at 95%. And whm has blessed for haste+%.

The haste equipment cap is 25%.

 

[hellstorm]

You did not mention 60% of a real DD as proof Rdm is an acceptable DD. You did not. I'll pretend you never posted that.

saevellakshmi wrote:
RDM can melee VERY well, we're not able to compete with a full fledge DD but whens the last time a WAR/MNK/SAM/NIN cast Cure IV? But IF a RDM is going DD the pt has to know the RDMs role isn't a refresh/haste/cure bot (aka main healing) that role should be on someone else.

This is not quite true. I'll usually post around 70-75% of a Ridill/Adaberk WAR, BB MNK, etc. on neutral mobs, and that's with self-support and casting Dia2 on mobs. On Colibris using Blau/Joy, it gets to 80-90% - probably could do a bit better if I was willing to let the birds snatch food more often. Melee RDM makes for a great 4th DD spot filler as someone who can deal good damage and still cure in a tight spot, and it takes a load off the backline mage (one less person to support).

Probably the worst I've parsed was a SAM burn merit pt right after the Aug patch (ie, when SAM _was_ overpowered) when I DD'ed roughly 50% of the SAMs while playing cure-bot for this one SAM that insisted on coming /WAR to Mamook. I did run out of MP a couple of times thanks to that while waiting on convert timer...

now note this would be in the role of a full dd meaning no haste cycle except yourself and minimal cures.

 

[Tomasello]

My god Hellstorm, your like the Al Sharpton of RDMs. You think your helping the RDM cause with your antics but all you do is remove all credibility from the job. A “pimped RDM” can not hanged with a normal exp party. Whatever moron Ridill/Joy WAR that RDM/NIN was playing with must of either been afk half the time or mentally impaired.

Even if you INSIST on being a “RDM DD” then at least have the brains to sub /WAR. You seem to be under some sort of delusion that a RDM/NIN with gimp dual wield and savage blade is somehow the best DD choice for a RDM. If I had to, gun to my head, DD I would at least sub /WAR so I can have Berserk and Vorpal Blade. BELIEVE ME you’re not going to pull hate just DDing no matter what you sub so have Utsusemi is absolutely pointless.

I’m not going to go down the least of reasons when there are SO many better choices for DD because it’s common sense. All I’m going to say is the number on detriment to the job is Accuracy. You need a shit load of accuracy just to get on par with a decent PLD DD. Decent means he also has a suppimoni, torque, etc. Then after wasting most of your slots on acc, you have to load up on haste, dmg and neglect all your other duties and well…. It’s just a stupid argument so please just drop it. You’re not going to win.

 

[Guyfox]

Was pretty relevant to me bud. It's less a flame than a fact. If you're a Red Mage, in a normal, fucntioning experience party, you're expected to not melee, because it just isn't viable.

If you're going to solo or be in groups where things aside from the norm are acceptable, then more power to you. Find ways to do it yourself.

The relevance of the topic was just that. Don't melee if you're in a party that's trying to gain experience points efficiently.

I appreciate and respect your opinion. Now why do you think that way? What numbers do you have to support your statement? If you want this to die once and for all support it with math that will be 100% engrained into whoevers's brain so they will drop this.

Bilun

 

[etchdog2000]

You know Hellstorm, we can argue with you about this all day long and you arent going to change your stance. How about you make up a merit party with at least average equipped DD and prove to use how awesome RDM melee is and post the results.

Maybe after seeing the results you will finally see that RDM melee isnt as good as you think it is.

 

[Neisan]

It's a paper issue Bilun. While you won't always have the numbers on paper translate to a parse, they tend to give a good indication of where you will stand. The paperwork itself is stacked against the Rdm.

No no, to be fair let's have him parse against a melee Whm and Smn. Any takers? If he can't beat out those two, he definitely has no room to consider Rdm a melee job.

 

[Lucki]

I don't see whm using 278 delay weapon or a weapon that can swing twice, a rdm could hit the 25% haste cap pretty easy and that not even including the haste spell which we get automatically.

Max Haste available for RDM

• Sentinel Shield - 1%
• Walahra Turban - 5%
• Goliard Saio - 4%
• Dusk Gloves +1 - 4%
• Nashira Seraweels - 2%
• Dusk Ledelsens +1 - 3%
• Speed Belt - 6%

Total: 25%

Max Haste available for WHM

• Capricorn Staff - 5%
• Walahra Turban - 5%
• Goliard Saio - 4%
• Blessed Mitts +1 - 6%
• Blessed Trousers +1 - 4%
• Blessed Pumps +1 - 3%
• Swift Belt - 4%

Total: 31%

If you just look at the armor, RDM drops to 24% (Sentinel Shields 1%) and WHM drops to 26% (Carpricorn Staffs 5%)... if you further take away the hard to obtain R/Ex gear, RDM drops to 16% (Goliard Saios 4%, Nashira Seraweels 2%, and Speed Belts 6%*) and WHM drops to 22% (Goliard Saios 4%)

so the fact remains that WHM has access to more +Haste gear then RDM does, and can do it cheaper too

RDM AH Cost

• Dusk Gloves +1 - 25,000,000
• Dusk Ledelsens +1 - 20,000,000

Total: 45,000,000

WHM AH Cost

• Blessed Mitts +1 - 1,000,000
• Blessed Pumps +1 - 1,500,000
• Blessed Trousers +1 - 9,100,000

Total: 11,600,000



*replaced Speed Belt with Swift Belt

 

[pchan]

Numbers would tell you a B skill and no pet (why PUP gets away with C skill)/Native melee traits or abilities is pathetic to try to melee with...

It's not enough to look at skill level. Rdm get 250 sword/dagger. Pup get 225. And yes PUP outDD a rdm anytime, even w/o the puppet. Why that ? First sword and dagger sucks ; second Their ws sucks (hi, thf dont use evisceration).

 

[K. Ishitar]

wouldn't /war and evisceration be slighty better tom? lower delay and more hits as well?

i've had more consistent results from fast blad than vorpal savage i haven't even touched so i can't vouch for that

 

[ds083roadkill]

It's not enough to look at skill level. Rdm get 250 sword/dagger. Pup get 225. And yes PUP outDD a rdm anytime, even w/o the puppet. Why that ? First sword and dagger sucks ; second Their ws sucks (hi, thf dont use evisceration).

cuz rdm dosnt get dancing edge?

thats like saying pup sucks cuz they dont get asuran fist~ oh snap

 

[pchan]

cuz rdm dosnt get dancing edge?

thats like saying pup sucks cuz they dont get asuran fist~ oh snap

Yes rdm don't get dancing edge that's why they sucks at playing melee. Pup don't get AF, but last time i checked mnk only get it at 71 . So do you think monk suck before 71 ?

 

[Bajaratt]

A couple of the rdm/nin there on other server where rdm is more applicable to melee say that they can pull out 60% of a avg dd.

The average DD is pretty weak, so saying that you can only do 60% of their damage is even more pathetic. That 60% is also requires very specific circumstances; lower level mobs, the DD's TP/food getting constantly eaten, no nasty AoE moves, etc. Just because one guy in a certain situation managed to not suck as bad as he normally did against a gimp DD job, does not validate your belief that rdm's are good DD jobs. 60% of an "average" DD is only about 20% of a real DD, and that makes you a complete waste of the slot.

No we have a high magic skill so we don't have to wear so much magic gear.

Are you fucking retarded? I guess that means melee's are all wasting their time wearing melee gear, since their skill is so high.

I don't see whm using 278 delay weapon or a weapon that can swing twice, a rdm could hit the 25% haste cap pretty easy and that not even including the haste spell which we get automatically.

White mages can use krakken clubs and prudence wands, the only multi-hit clubs in the game; they can also hit the haste cap pretty easily.

Lol you still do not recognize why I did stated that. /sigh Why am I not surprised. Parse is a cheat but I still use it, it the point that you think you are mr. perfect I don't cheat, but you do if you are using parse. Different topic though so last i'll speak about that.

So now on top of being a dumbass(because it's not a cheat, retard), you're a hypocrite too.

near effectiveness is the key word. A rdm can fulfill all the roles but never as good as the other jobs.

Yes, it is the key word, something that you're vastly overstating. They're no where near as good as a normal damage dealer; let alone a good one. 60% of a semi-gimp player is pathetic

Or they should give us the en-spell II so that we can actually compete with melee better as well as a acc buff and native vorpal blade. Which is what most rdm think that we be getting tier 2 en-spell next update. Also why should we be resting mp that why we have convert.

No, they should let you cast those en-spells on other players so they'd actually be useful. Your melee is pathetic, quoting some moron rdm on another server who's just as dumb as you are doesn't prove otherwise.

No one invites a rdm to melee; they invite them because they want a mage. Your sword skill is for soloing; meleeing you'd be nothing but a hindrance in an exp party and a huge fucking liability in endgame. Stop trying to make rdm the god-job; it'll never happen and you're only making yourself look even more stupid(which I honestly didn't think possible) by you keep bringing this up only to be smacked down by 20 different people every time. Hell, you don't even say anything new, you just keep repeating the same stupid points that are so full of holes you can hardly see that it's even there.

 

[Tymon]

A couple of the rdm/nin there on other server where rdm is more applicable to melee say that they can pull out 60% of a avg dd.

Which makes you 40% away from being a DRG with bad gear. Grats

 

[Sharpe]

Hellstorm, A BRD, 4 Melee. (Or swap a melee for a WHM or RDM so he can just pure melee)

Someone set this up and parse it so QCDN's biggest retard can shut the fuck up. Oh also it'll be nice to see threads that aren't RDM this RDM that.