Salvage - overview, strategy and information.

[Uzor]

Your friend is saying you can't get evasion skill from being hit. I'd ask why are you defending someone who makes dumb/erroneous statements, but you just do it because you have nothing better to do like with hellstorm.

Apparently no one should ever correct someone anymore, no matter how stupid or wrong their statement is.

I honestly don't care what his statements are. If that's your reason, I'm shocked as to how you can live with Bush as president.

And Pchan's statement wasn't really wrong. Nor was it stupid.

 

[Skaw]

No, that's not according to me. I never even argued the point that WAR has slightly less skill. I argued the point that WAR would be more usefull ebcause they have access to better equip. I also pointed out that PUP is usefull becausethey have a skill. I never argued that PUP is good because they havew a higher skill. I did mention that the higher skill makes a difference, but I never mentioned myself that that's why they're better.

Thats funny, because according to two other monks, thats what you're coming off as saying. Their skill is why they're better than Warriors for Salvage. And thats what Pchan said, and thats what needed to be corrected.

The only possible reason I can even think of as to why you're defending his statement that PUP is good in Salvage strictly due to their skill as correct, is because you agree with him.

 

[Uzor]

Thats funny, because according to two other monks, thats what you're coming off as saying. Their skill is why they're better than Warriors.

MNK's have a rather large difference in skill over WAR. They also have a base delay of 300.

And what does it matter what 2 other MNK's are saying? Seriously, now you're just grasping at straws.

Besides, I didn't stand up for most of hellstorm's arguments. I stood up for him when you attacked him for anything and everything he said. I couldn't care less about the other thigns he said.

Besides, now you're walking even more off-topic. Seriously.

 

[Skaw]

MNK's have a rather large difference in skill over WAR. They also have a base delay of 300.

And what does it matter what 2 other MNK's are saying? Seriously, now you're just grasping at straws.

MNK is moot. If you want sheer skill, theres plenty of people with MNK leveled. The difference is between PUP and WAR and their hand to hand skills. A very blurry line.

3 Monks, with very indepth knowledge of how hand to hand works, are trying to tell you that pchan was wrong. Not "half" wrong. Completely wrong.

 

[Bajaratt]

I honestly don't care what his statements are. If that's your reason, I'm shocked as to how you can live with Bush as president.

And Pchan's statement wasn't really wrong. Nor was it stupid.

So you don't care what your friends say, but as soon as someone corrects them, you throw a fit. I have no idea what you're talking about with Bush, aside from just trying to go on a tangent to divert attention away from you defending idiots out of sheer boredom.

His statement than PUP was stronger than WAR at the beginning of salvage solely because of their h2h skill is wrong. No one said they weren't stronger, no one said that their h2h skill was completely irrelevant, they said that the difference in skill was not the main reason why PUP would outdamage WAR. The skills could be reversed and PUP would still win, because of the martial arts.

 

[Uzor]

MNK is moot. If you want sheer skill, theres plenty of people with MNK leveled. The difference is between PUP and WAR and their hand to hand skills. A very blurry line.

3 Monks, with very indepth knowledge of how hand to hand works, are trying to tell you that pchan was wrong. Not "half" wrong. Completely wrong.

The point was, there's no need to correct him, as that's not part of the topic. If it was a topic about H2H skill, then sure, fire away, but that's not relevant to the topic at hand. My point was, it was entirely useless in this topic to correct him, and you only did it because you don't like him. That's the fact of the matter. You have predetermined judgements of him, and thus will actively seek out things to comment on, to show your displease. Just like you did with Hellstorm, although with Hellstorm you took it one step further.

 

[Skaw]

The skills could be reversed and PUP would still win, because of the martial arts.

Bingo.

You have predetermined judgements of him, and thus will actively seek out things to comment on, to show your displease. Just like you did with Hellstorm, although with Hellstorm you took it one step further.

I don't even know pchan. The only experience I've ever had with them was yesterdays Undead Besieged. I think they were in my alliance, but I was no where near them. I don't even know what job they were on. So you can take that little idea and throw it away.

I corrected an incorrect statement. Thats all. You, and only you, see that as being out to get someone.

225 skill doesn't make you more useful in salvage than a job with 210. 360 delay compared to 480 does.

 

[Uzor]

So you don't care what your friends say, but as soon as someone corrects them, you throw a fit. I have no idea what you're talking about with Bush, aside from just trying to go on a tangent to divert attention away from you defending idiots out of sheer boredom.

His statement than PUP was stronger than WAR at the beginning of salvage solely because of their h2h skill is wrong. No one said they weren't stronger, no one said that their h2h skill was completely irrelevant, they said that the difference in skill was not the main reason why PUP would outdamage WAR. The skills could be reversed and PUP would still win, because of the martial arts.

/em refers to my previous post

Also, that's not what I said. Now you're just making things up. Hellstorm isn't my friend.

And seriously, if you want to argue that, just fucking create your own thread instead of derailing this one further -.- Either that od a mod can split the thread so Skaw and Bajaratt can take whatever pride they have left and polish it. I really don't care as that's not even relevant, nor interresting.

Anyway, I'm off to salvage. Either you crease a new thread if you want to argue about a moot point and stop derailing this thread, or a mod splits this thread. And I know its possible to split thread. Which I'll probably ask a mod to do anyway. Because I don't want your dirty good-for-nothing posts in this thread as they contribute with nothing.

 

[Skaw]

Anyway, I'm off to salvage. Either you crease a new thread if you want to argue about a moot point and stop derailing this thread, or a mod splits this thread. And I know its possible to split thread. Which I'll probably ask a mod to do anyway. Because I don't want your dirty good-for-nothing posts in this thread as they contribute with nothing.

Really, are you that much of a crybaby that your thread about Salvage and Strategy has to be split when people actually talk about both?

Exactly what did you want from this thread when you made it with that title?

It seems you really just wanted to drop what you said, and have it locked and stickied for the world to see without any additional input or criticism.

Strategically, Warrior and Puppetmaster are the same early on due to meager skill differences. Once abilities are unlocked, PUP takes the cake. Are you happy? Is that how you wanted it worded? Because thats all I've been saying. Thats all I've said. Equipment was in regards to neither having abilities unlocked, about closing that very minor gap. And it seems people take offense to this. Way to raise the bar, folks.

Really, this thread should stay whole. So other people can see documentation of how the people they play this game with act when an incorrect statement is corrected.

 

[Bajaratt]

The point was, there's no need to correct him, as that's not part of the topic. If it was a topic about H2H skill, then sure, fire away, but that's not relevant to the topic at hand. My point was, it was entirely useless in this topic to correct him, and you only did it because you don't like him. That's the fact of the matter. You have predetermined judgements of him, and thus will actively seek out things to comment on, to show your displease. Just like you did with Hellstorm, although with Hellstorm you took it one step further.

I don't even know who the fuck he is and I don't care. That doesn't have any bearing at all on his statement's accuracy or not. I've agreed with people I hate, and disagreed with good friends. With hellstorm, he says something stupid, we get on him for saying something stupid.

It's not entirely useless to correct him. Someone says something wrong in a thread that is about sharing information you should correct them, so that other people don't believe incorrect information. You just don't want us to correct him because he's your friend.

 

[Sharpe]

Bajaratt, Skaw et al are correct.


/thread.

 

[Uzor]

Really, are you that much of a crybaby that your thread about Salvage and Strategy has to be split when people actually talk about both?

Exactly what did you want from this thread when you made it with that title?

It seems you really just wanted to drop what you said, and have it locked and stickied for the world to see without any additional input or criticism.

Strategically, Warrior and Puppetmaster are the same early on due to meager skill differences. Once abilities are unlocked, PUP takes the cake. Are you happy? Is that how you wanted it worded? Because thats all I've been saying. Thats all I've said. Equipment was in regards to neither having abilities unlocked, about closing that very minor gap. And it seems people take offense to this. Way to raise the bar, folks.

Really, this thread should stay whole. So other people can see documentation of how the people they play this game with act when an incorrect statement is corrected.

No, I wanted it to be a thread discussing possible strategies. I also wanted it to hopefully make people get interrested in Salvage. You can criticize my post all you want, or give input on it etc. But this is still not a thread arguing PUP's H2H skill and martial arts level. This is a salvage thread.

The reaso I asked for the thread to be split, is because the last, what? 6 pages? have been derailed. By all means, you can continue this worthless, meaningless discussion in another thread and keep the Salvage thread as it was intended to be.

I don't even know who the fuck he is and I don't care. That doesn't have any bearing at all on his statement's accuracy or not. I've agreed with people I hate, and disagreed with good friends. With hellstorm, he says something stupid, we get on him for saying something stupid.

It's not entirely useless to correct him. Someone says something wrong in a thread that is about sharing information you should correct them, so that other people don't believe incorrect information. You just don't want us to correct him because he's your friend.

It was useless to correct him, as it wasn't a end-all-break-all misstake. This is an information thread, yes, but its not a thread informing about WAR's, MNK's and PUP's H2H skill and martial arts.

 

[Crosis]

Long-Bowed Chariot

I'd also reccomend the MNK's to wear Counter gear, stacked with Counterstance. Every time you counter, the attack directed towards you will be cancelled, thus making the MNK take 0 damage, while dealing damage himself. This makes it easier for the MNK to keep shadows up. Unfortunately, this pretty much makes the MNK's defense 0. This won't matter that much, though, as the boss hits for roughly 600 damage anyway. The goal here is to not get hit here at all, and due to the boss's very high base damage, getting hit for a bit extra won't make that much of a difference when you'll have a chance to completely avoid the attack.

I've tanked this boss multiples times and unless the Monks who were tanking had been naked, which I doubt with it being in Bhalfau, they shouldn't be getting hit for 600. An average hit does around 270-350, less if you happen to Guard, crits are the only thing that comes close to 600 but even those were in the 470-550 range. I'd really be against advising Monks to use Counterstance unless mages were down or resting MP. One Double Attack where both don't get countered will pretty much get you killed. Where as a Double Attack without Counterstance will only take you down maybe 40%.

Stacking counter gear is nice however unless you have nearly every piece possible with capped merits, which even then is not entirely reliable, it can get you killed fast. With March and Haste most Monks will be at the cap for Utusemi recasts and keeping shadows up isn't incredibly difficult.

 

[Uzor]

I've tanked this boss multiples times and unless the Monks who were tanking had been naked, which I doubt with it being in Bhalfau, they shouldn't be getting hit for 600. An average hit does around 270-350, less if you happen to Guard, crits are the only thing that comes close to 600 but even those were in the 470-550 range. I'd really be against advising Monks to use Counterstance unless mages were down or resting MP. One Double Attack where both don't get countered will pretty much get you killed. Where as a Double Attack without Counterstance will only take you down maybe 40%.

Stacking counter gear is nice however unless you have nearly every piece possible with capped merits, which even then is not entirely reliable, it can get you killed fast. With March and Haste most Monks will be at the cap for Utusemi recasts and keeping shadows up isn't incredibly difficult.

Yah, shadows is important ^^

And I suppose it'd be possible to do without Counterstance. But if keeping shadows up are easy anyway, then counterstance wouldn't make much of a difference, no? Counterstance also gives more hate.

Question though, as I'm not a MNK myself, how much does Counter activate with Counterstance on? Counter have a 10% activation rate at 75, maybe slightly more with capped merits? And Counterstance makes it 3x as high, but makes DEF roughly 0, no? So activation rate should be roughly 30%? Or is activation rate less on things of higher level/evasion?

 

[Bajaratt]

My defense is around 44 with melee gaiters on, with about a 50% or greater counter rate. I don't have much counter+ gear though.

 

[Uzor]

My defense is around 44 with melee gaiters on, with about a 50% or greater counter rate. I don't have much counter+ gear though.

50% counter rate? Is that effected by mob level, evasion etc.? Because if it'd be 50% on the Salvage boss too, that's even better then I'd have expected <.< that's basically an extra shadow against melee attacks 50% of the time, extra enmity, but twice the damage. So it'd even out rather well. In that case you'd still have the benefit of an extra attackevery now and then, and some added enmity.

I'm assuming you have capped counter, so if we have an imagined scenario where you have all the +counter gear available, and Spharai, what would the counter rate be? xD

And btw, they need to raise drop rates in Salvage =( In my other shell we got an arrapago card and 4 lvl 15 gear from like 6 gears killed, but my shell still have terrible luck. From the runs we've done, we're yet to see a single drop from Arrapago ; ;

 

[Mai Ikari]

Counter is a percentage, nothing more. 50% counter means 50% counter. Counters can miss, though, so it's effected by evasion to some degree. (Melee Gaiters have a still-undetermined positive effect on counterstance, some say it becomes more accurate) Base rate is 10%, 15% with merits (which almost every MNK has). Max counter rate is somewhere between 80% and 90%, but to do it you lose a good bit of the accuracy you need to use that counter rate, so it really isn't a specific number across all targets.

Also, from what I've heard on BG, Counterstance is used like Rampart, emergency hate after, like, a homing missile, not a fulltime thing (which is just begging for a double-attack instant KO). Something about Chariots having really low attack, and super-high base damage.

 

[Uzor]

Counter is a percentage, nothing more. 50% counter means 50% counter. Counters can miss, though, so it's effected by evasion to some degree. (Melee Gaiters have a still-undetermined positive effect on counterstance, some say it becomes more accurate) Base rate is 10%, 15% with merits (which almost every MNK has). Max counter rate is somewhere between 80% and 90%, but to do it you lose a good bit of the accuracy you need to use that counter rate, so it really isn't a specific number across all targets.

Also, from what I've heard on BG, Counterstance is used like Rampart, emergency hate after, like, a homing missile, not a fulltime thing (which is just begging for a double-attack instant KO). Something about Chariots having really low attack, and super-high base damage.

Yeah, but I've also read Aurik saying he leaves Counter on full-time. Although he have Spharai, which is why I asked what the counter rate with Spharai etc. would be

Trying to find a good middle ground of counter etc. for the boss. Currently we're not actively hunting the boss untill we'd get more then 1 set of armour completed by killng it. The only boss we need atm is Silver Sea, but like I said, I want more then 1 armour to haev a chance of being completed before we go after a boss. If we could get Chariot to drop, we'd end up being 2/3 on some more items ; ; And those treasure hunters and astrologers are really stingy ~.~ A Nemain's Slops would also be great ; ;

 

[Mai Ikari]

Yeah, but I've also read Aurik saying he leaves Counter on full-time. Although he have Spharai, which is why I asked what the counter rate with Spharai etc. would be

Trying to find a good middle ground of counter etc. for the boss. Currently we're not actively hunting the boss untill we'd get more then 1 set of armour completed by killng it. The only boss we need atm is Silver Sea, but like I said, I want more then 1 armour to haev a chance of being completed before we go after a boss. If we could get Chariot to drop, we'd end up being 2/3 on some more items ; ; And those treasure hunters and astrologers are really stingy ~.~ A Nemain's Slops would also be great ; ;

Aurik also says he doesnt' leave CS up fulltime, depends on which chariot, setup, bla bla bla. Looking for the exact post now, also listed the gear he used to tank, which was prettymuch just DD gear, since they had Slow II and Elegy on it.

 

[Mai Ikari]

Double-posting because I can't edit my posts while on SUSE, for some reason -_-

The Bhaflau strat thread: http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14622
seems to have the tanking discussion, ends around page 37... I need to head home, will look through it when I get back.