SAMs not subbing NIN in pickup merit pts

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I've got good stories on melees refusing to sub nin lol.

Like the last time I asked kohra to come drk in WoA salvage (when i was still leading), he went crazy drk/sam on Boss, all out , and died in exactly 7 seconds, after a huge ws or something. And he was 'omg I am epeenz I do big damagez' and was proud of himself but the run was wasted at that point.
 
*shrugs* and yet aside from you ds most people are using that as their only golden reason for being right.

Am I defending myself? O of course to a point, i did a lot of research for this, and having people throw it down just because they've 'been doing it longer' is offensive to a point...

Right now btw.. I only /drg(eventually dancer once i get it leveled after seeing some people use it)... so the others wouldn't really be a defense of myself... I'm switching voer from being a mage main..so not many SJs ready heh.

/drg just helps w/ polearm, cause of pole belt. +5 weapon skill never hurts, esp when my other belt option is potent belt.

/war - All i'm saying is we had a sam/war main tanking a meripo yesturday (i had ring on for first part of it so can't provide accurate numbers, but the display said 22k/hr for a 3hr pt.. so prolly 15~18ish?.. i don't wanna do the math on it), w/ a dnc supplying haste/healing. Don't see how warcry can slow a pt down... it's +attack... if the person using it is already the tank...(which is what was stated)... or if they use it towards the end of life of the mob(or when lots of ppl have TP up) for a quick finish... all it does is speed the way to the next mob and the extra emnity doesn't do much if the mob is dead within seconds.

ds083roadkill said:
edit: what do you suggest the other sam sub if one was subbing dnc? lol
still works... i mean the only dissadvantage is you can't all use samba :-P. can still all erase/support/heal and debuff(uhh even if the entire pt was /dnc-1...which isn't gonna happen) still unlikely that all 10 SJ possible step counters would be up while the thing is still alive.

On the point of the TP, hmm maybee a use for the hachiman domaru?.... ehh wouldn't sacrefice hauby for it tho.
 
most cant use warcry properly. i still say the only time a sam should sub anything but nin in merit is if the 3 other dd are also sam.
 
SAM in merits: /WAR Vs. /NIN

I've noticed that this is a recurring trend lately, SAMs that sub WAR or other completely useless subjobs in merit pts. The last one I was in we had a sam/war that just macroed on arhat's gi whenever he pulled hate. Seriously? Is the sam e-peen contest so important that they will make the party that much more difficult to manage so they can make bigger numbers? We lost chain several times because our whm couldn't keep mp high enough to keep Haste on everyone because the sam took so much damage.
I'll just start with this. Melee jobs are widely considered the 'easy alternative' to magery due to it's apparent simplicity, when the fact is it's just easier to be a bad player and get away with it. You can be a terrible player, but due to it's apparent simplicity you can get away with it. The 'milestone' is set higher for mages it seems, and it's much more obvious when a mage is a bad player, due to it's nature of looking more complex than a melee.

The problem is this. Like many other aspects of the game, the player is very much responsible for his/her performance (not so much the sub, or even gear to some extent). I'd take a guess here and say that 9 in every 10 players don't know how to play in an EXP/merit party properly, and that's the problem. I've been in countless situations whereby I join a generic 'good' merit or EXP setup (WAR WAR SAM RDM BRD COR for example, for arguments sake), and it turns out to be a total waste of time. Equally, I've been in a large number of parties whereby the setup seems ridiculous, yet it turns out to be a fantastic one (WAR WAR MNK SAM DNC RDM, go figure). It's very much down to the player/s.

I'm sure you can recall similar times where it's happened to you too -- where you've had a party with great communication, good chemistry going and one where it just seems to 'flow' properly, as it should do. People do their jobs, and are both considerate and aware of the others in the party. The sign of a good melee is no doubt his/her ability to put out good damage, while taking minimal. Balancing offence and defence (English spelling, before anyone calls the Grammar Nazis) in order to be the most efficient at the job.

In the right hands, SAM/WAR can be MP efficient whilst putting out almost double the damage over time as /NIN over the course of say 3 hours of meritting. Ultimately, that increased damage over time will lead to more EXP over time, and more merits (which I assume is the common goal of meritting for 90% of people, lol).

Problem is, you take a big gamble when making pickup parties with random people. 9 out of 10 times, you'll end up with at least one bad player in the group. Equally, 9 out of 10 people can't play SAM/WAR properly.

So is there some reason that sams feel special in regard to not subbing nin in merits? And no, I don't want to hear "Seigan" as an answer.
My short answer is this: SAM/WAR has a far better ratio of damage dealt to damage taken if used correctly, and that /NIN is the easier choice if you want to give your DDs a big bicycle helmet as it were.

Reason why I only really merit with people I know, is that I can be sure what to expect from them, and plan accordingly. In an ideal world though, SAMs would sub WAR, and other DDs would all sub SAM.

The bottom line is, people need to learn how to play. Sorry, but that does include how to use Seigan.



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Edit: Just saw this.

sam/drg - Ability to use polearm on Colibri for penta spam
Also, why do I keep hearing this from people? /DRG doesn't give you some magical boost to polearm skill. If you're referring to the +10 accuracy trait, that alone doesn't justify using polearm with /DRG over /WAR anyway.
 
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Also, why do I keep hearing this from people? /DRG doesn't give you some magical boost to polearm skill. If you're referring to the +10 accuracy trait, that alone doesn't justify using polearm with /DRG over /WAR anyway.

/drg gives you +5 polearm skill w/ pole belt and +10 acc, which is how ppl say it gives a boost to polearm (and why I say it).. because it does.w

as for the /war vs /drg general argument... from most discussions i've seen w/ equal gear levels it's about the same /drg gets TP faster and HJ to shave hate, /war gets berzerk and an extra +10attack and voke in emergencies. Both good in their own ways, biggest lose out is the +10% dbl attack (and just the 5% from brutal)
 
/drg gives you +5 polearm skill w/ pole belt and +10 acc, which is how ppl say it gives a boost to polearm (and why I say it).. because it does.w

Lance Belt >>>>>>>>>>>> Swift Belt
 
Not everyone has access to a swift belt and he already said he didn't have endgamey gear. Swift Belt not being Endgame, per se, but the point is taken in stride.

In no particular order: Tank? In MY merit party? In all the meripos I've ever been in we've really only had a "tank" in the means of a first provoke. First provoke means he holds hate until someone throws a big weaponskill.

If you aren't taking hate with ALL of your weaponskills, Pentathrust included, something is wrong or you're partying with people way out of your league. All of that said, this isn't a topic about critiquing one SAM who thinks /war > /nin.

I'm not even a samurai, I'm a warrior. I really LIKE /sam, though, which makes me SAM-lite. In merit parties though, and just about anything taken serious, I suck it up and sub ninja. Shadows are more reliable than TE any day of the week. Sometimes you'll get lucky but in a merit party situation, you don't need luck you need consistency.

My money? Newskool SAMs who don't have Uts:Ni or nin to 37.
 
yes i DEF dont' have swiftbelt yet :-P would I use the lance belt if i had one?uhhh... only for macroing in for penta thrust... possibly better w/ warwolf.. would have-to test... don't know if the +2dmg mod +2.5acc/att would be better over 5Polearm for doing penta, never thought about it.


i did say ws get hate.. i thought i did anyways.. the 'tank' is the voker yesreally once everyone has enough TP to WS on the mob..uhh it's not alive long enough to matter..
 
*preps the needle*

Ase, you're talking about SAM subs as a general damage dealer whether you realize it or not, because once we take out the prepositional phrase we're just talking about hate management.

The fact of the matter is that TE is unreliable in the long run, and while /nin might slow down your DPS by maybe 1 hit per bird, which really isn't slowing down much at all, you're allowing the whm or rdm to throw haste without dumping mp into heals, which more than makes up for that pause to cast shadows.

Out of curiosity, do you have nin to 37 with both utsusemi scrolls?
 
it's more then one hit.... /thf /rng /drg /war... are way more then one hit... you're getting these wierd 'job abilities' from these jobs that do damages... and /dnc provides far more utility then jsut healing itself, erase and debuff...
uhh yeah.. anyways /rng /thf /drg is mostly used in EG(from what people i've asked that play sams on our server have told me) uhh i'm not gonna try to prove that one, i got these tips from other people and since i have not done it nor have the means to count it, no candy for me in this.

sams are a dmg dealer in the end...aren't they ;-P, and hate management exists no matter what sub you are.

Concerning the job:
no I refuse to level it so that people don't ask me to sub it..simple as that.. though getting to 37 is 1week to a month(depending on free time) so if i really wanted to i could, and farming UO really isn't that hard...which brings me to:

Do i have scrolls?...not now.w: I've sold multiple ni scrolls in my career in FFXI(Under Obsedrvation as BLM trio) wonder where all that money has gone *sighs* only 200k to my name now, and never quested ichi, since there was no need to.

Will I level nin? prolly need it to level some other jobs up... will i sub sam w/ nin not unless i see a better reason then 'Utsusemi:Ni'.
it's level 2 now XD.w
 
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Not gonna quote that whole post, because you just answered it all with a super long prepositional phrase.

You don't sub nin in merit parties because you are UNABLE to.

Its not really more than one hit, unless you're haxoring. How long does it take a delay 400 polearm to attack? Its FASTER than 1.5 seconds to cast Ni? Let's pretend that a delay 400 polearm attacks every six seconds, which in my head feels like a good estimate.

You would need to cast ust:ni three times in a single colibri to lose a single attack. That means you would need to be focused on for 9 attacks, or 7 if Flurry came up.

Let's not take into account the 45 second recast timer on Ni. I'm going to assume you're lacking any haste gear to really knock that down past 40 seconds.

In order for you to lose one attack round in a single bird, you'd need to be fighting it for two minutes straight.

You're doing it wrong. Ninja sub doesn't impact damage that as much as you think it does, and it allows people to chain triple digits. If you want to sub dragoon, that's great for you and your damage, but not so great for your overtaxed mages and exp/hour.
 
If you're in a party with people you usually play with, a few DD sam/war (or /sam) full timing seigan is much better than subbing fail nin. The mobs die so quick it doesn't matter if third eye lasts one hit. The mob doesn't get very many attack rounds in, a ws if the fight lasts long, and when a 2-3 dd /sam or sam main are goin apeshit, hate turns constantly, and you end up taking 1-2 hits each fight, spread between the DD. As a drk I normally just drain 1/2 to heal back the damage. Very easy for the rdm to keep a haste cycle and heal, even without the relic hat/dalmy.

Everytime I sub sam in a party with people that don't like /sam, it fails because they sub nin and slow down kills to the point where third eye isn't enough. So for all those haters, try somethin like sam/war, drk/sam, war/nin, cor/whm, brd/nin, rdm/whm. And if they have any clue how to play, it will be a sexy pt. And you will hate that you ever subbed that awful job called ninja.

All DD subbing nin does make fine exp, but it's pretty god damn boring really. Epeen is fun, and better exp/hr.
 
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sam/war works at birds with penta, the rest...meh.

Can't say I would ever use sam/war on any pickup group though.

/war and using Gekko isn't as great as one would imagine with all this crap now about capped attack on weaker merit mobs...kinda explains why Ruke's sam/drg ended up parsing so well vs sam/war.

Full timing seigan isnt even necessary on birds if the party is strong enough, one WS + a few attack rounds and its dead. Its entirely dependent on the setup and players you are with though. I would say the average player should not be subbing war as a sam in merits though.
 
If you're in a party with people you usually play with, a few DD sam/war (or /sam) full timing seigan is much better than subbing fail nin.

sam/nin full timing Hasso: 10% haste 10 acc 10 STR vs...

Sam/war full timing seigan: 5% DA and bersek.

Are you saying case 2 is better lol? Haste > everything...
 
sam/nin full timing Hasso: 10% haste 10 acc 10 STR vs...

Sam/war full timing seigan: 5% DA and bersek.

Are you saying case 2 is better lol? Haste > everything...

Its 10% DA from /war, not 5%. 10% DA is pretty damn comparable to 10% haste, and berserk is +25% attack.

Ideally though, if you are subbing sam/war you are using hasso as well and the whole pt is going balls to the wall...which is obviously fairly rare.
 
sam/nin full timing Hasso: 10% haste 10 acc 10 STR vs...

Sam/war full timing seigan: 5% DA and bersek.

Are you saying case 2 is better lol? Haste > everything...

SAM/NIN doesn't automatically mean you can fulltime Hasso, and never need Seigan. A good player can use both when necessary, regardless of sub. Also, 5% DA isn't correct for /WAR anyway.


@Zoolander. With regard to Ruke here, i'm sure as you're aware he has Amanomurakumo, and near-perfect gear for SAM. He has other very well equipped DDs and a Gjallarhorn BRD with him for his tests in merits, so in that situation he's going to be at capped haste and attack on merit mobs. For /DRG to shine, you'll need all those things -- combined with the ability to ride your timers very well (along with expensive food too, no doubt). But in your everyday pickup, /DRG isn't so impressive.
 
Nobody is arguing that sam/war is better dd than sam/nin. Just arguing that /nin should be the default for merit pt and other same difficulty events, for survivability. /war just doent work. The OP obviously never had a 'true' merit pt, is obviously a gimp sam w/o basic stuf like swift belts and other haste gears so, and doesnt understand how much MP mages need to save in a fast meripo.
 
To be fair that wasn't the OP it was just the first SAM to step up and say he would never sub NIN.
 
It sounds to me like too many people are trying to emulate rukeshin when he says he goes sam/war without realizing he has over 30%+ damage reduction macro swaps(including D ring), extremely fast reflexes, the ability to pull 30k+/H when meriting, and a damned relic weapon.

And for those who complain about hasso slowing down utsu... Cancel the fucking thing if it's such a problem and then put it back up right after. Is that so hard? If your nin is lv 37+ did you figure out how to cancel ni properly? It's basically the same thing only you might decide to cancel the hasso while mid cast if it's ni you're doing since ni casts so fast that the difference in time when casting NI is almost nonexistent. If my sam got to 75 subbing nin and managed fine with ichi you can do it with Ichi AND ni. I've tried to sneak in war when there are 2 healers in pt or whatever. it doesnt work. it just result in either a dead sam or an mp sink. After i concluded that the one pt i did sub war in was because the retarded pt ORDERED me to go /war or /thf(great idea. make a soboro sam go /thf!) when I started to run to camp as /nin. I didnt die but only cause I was lucky that the pld was competent enough for me to only tank 1/2~3/4 of the time and it ended quickly.

EDIT: since noone seems to have pointed it out. /drg is for the bloody 5% haste from the earring( the acc bonus and jumps are nice but you NEED the 5% haste for it to even theoretically work). if you're going to /drg at least grab the earring first. dont even bother with the drg belt. buy a life belt. If dragoons need to have acc on thier pentathrust macros then you certainly need to have some acc when doing a WS on a job that doesnt have A ranked skill in polearm.
 
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If you're in a party with people you usually play with

Stopped reading there. This post isn't about pting with people you know, it's about pickup merit pts. If you're pting with friends you're welcome to do whatever the hell you want to because you're friends and you know each other's playing styles.
 
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