Should we all level a merit job first?

I honestly hope that the new expansion offers an area that makes the "standard" party a good thing again. Nothing against the TP burns - I think it's awesome that jobs who formerly were homeless (WAR or MNK in a skillchain?) found not only a place to level, but a place to level and make more exp than ever precedented in this game.

However, in a burn party, there is no hate control other than making sure the DD/NINs equally share hate so that no one has to drop to using ichi. There is no strategy other than gearing up to spam as many Asuran Fists/Rampages as possible in a given amoutn of time and keeping the right songs on. Don't get me wrong, you can't top 30k or whatever you guys can make/hour, but it's nothing like the team-based exp I remember from when I was "growing up" in this game.

Quite a few things wrong with these statements.
A. TP-Burns existed long before ToAU. ToAU only enabled sub-par equipped people to grind out exp faster, and popularized it. Many people were doing burns long before this, MNK burns in KRT, as well as NIN/WAR/MNK burns in sky on deco's/aura weaps/aura statues.

B. There is so hate control in burn parties. The use of /nin is vital so that anyone CAN pull hate, but the reason for a haste order ensure the person with the hate the most has their shadows readily available.
Claiming no one uses ichi is ignorant beyond belief...I personally use it more often then Ni.

C. Claiming a cannon party isn't team-oriented is completely bullshit. Again, perhaps a subpar cannon isn't team oriented and just wack wack wack, but it takes people who exercise their roles perfectly to make a cannon run smoothly. If you've EVER read into cannon parties, you realize its not a spam of asuran/rampage, but timing of weaponskills to further the chain, saving tp, ensuring the right songs are on at the right times, etc, etc, etc. Also not killing some mobs as fast, holding off on weaponskills to ensure the pop-rate is even. I don't know how many times I've said to myself, we're killing too fast.
Just because the strategy isn't the same as a skillchain party doesn't mean it is non-existant. Keeping up the pace of a kill while keeping select members away from danger and able to rest at opportune times doesn't come easy, nor does putting your own numbers aside for the betterment of a group. I've done both, and performing to your potential in a cannon gunning for 25k per hour is not only much more exciting, but much more challenging then holding hate on two members skillchaining.
 
Call me elitist but I honestly get pissed when I see a pt in the north thickets camp who can't even make it out to the mobs outside the narrow tunnel entrance because they repop that fast. That isn't a chain 4-5 and rest camp, that's a chain 300 nonstop camp. There are at least 3 chain 4-5 and rest camps at the staging point, feel free to use one.
 
I've been out at Nyzul Bhaflau a lot recently but there was never more than 2 parties (neither cannon) at a time, which the camp supported easily. We weren't making 20k an hour but the exp wasn't bad (72-74ish level up parties.)

Are you saying a party shouldn't go to a spot just because sometime in the next couple hours some complete strangers might maybe want to kill those mobs faster than you can? I respect my fellow players but that's taking it a little far...

You're missing my point. My point is that if that camp you cited is a good and appropriate camp for your level, your party's gear/skill/merits, and your party's job distribution, then you should go there (after checking beforehand to make sure there's room for your party, of course - though despite this being "of course", 90% of parties don't seem to bother with this rather important step).

If, however, there exists a camp *better* suited to your party, that you're not going to because you're ignorant of it, *that's* the point I'm trying to make. To educate yourself about what camps are best suited to what party types, and go to that. Not only because some other party might make better use of your previous option (magnanimous though it may be for you to avoid going there in case that may happen, let's be realistic here - what do you personally care about that other party?), but more importantly because *your* party might be better off at another spot.

That's the point I'm trying to make here. If you know of lots of possible places to go, and having evaluated them all relative to your party setup, you decide that Nyzul Bhaflau is the best fit for you, that's fine. If you only know of Nyzul Bhaflau and you go there because that's the only place you know, that's a concern. See the difference?
 
Are you saying a party shouldn't go to a spot just because sometime in the next couple hours some complete strangers might maybe want to kill those mobs faster than you can? I respect my fellow players but that's taking it a little far...

No, that's not the point at all. The point is that the mamool in thickets north, and in nyzul isle, arn't that good of exp material for average parties, you'd be a lot better off in another area. It's not respect for other players, it's making good exp and not overhunting (as strange as the term sounds at 75).
 
I've never seen Nyzule Isle Bhaf. Mamool Ja's support 2 parties personally. Every time I've been there and another party comes in and tries to start on the opposite side the xp goes straight to hell. End up fighting for repops and goodbye to the nice chains. Both parties are screwed as a result but then again that's nothing new in this game. That old "some xp is better than no xp" motto most people have instead of finding another camp that isn't overcrowded.
 
Call me elitist but I honestly get pissed when I see a pt in the north thickets camp who can't even make it out to the mobs outside the narrow tunnel entrance because they repop that fast. That isn't a chain 4-5 and rest camp, that's a chain 300 nonstop camp. There are at least 3 chain 4-5 and rest camps at the staging point, feel free to use one.

damn you! Chain #69, and Chain #69 alone at that camp, please.
 
I've never seen Nyzule Isle Bhaf. Mamool Ja's support 2 parties personally. Every time I've been there and another party comes in and tries to start on the opposite side the xp goes straight to hell. End up fighting for repops and goodbye to the nice chains. Both parties are screwed as a result but then again that's nothing new in this game. That old "some xp is better than no xp" motto most people have instead of finding another camp that isn't overcrowded.

They don't support two parties without hindering experience/merits for both.

Vil, I don't buy your argument. It's correct, but not entirely. A majority of parties these days are not even close to standard, most are only TP burns and would make the most out of mobs like Trolls, Colibri, Mamool Ja, Puks and Caedarva Mire.

Caedarva Mire is an exp camp for level 69-70's so you're competing with two to three parties usually and at 75, the exp blows unless you can chain the entire zone and have little to no competition. Puks are along the similar vein of the Mire and are too low to be of any huge merit status with base exp of less than 100, around 70ish. You are basically doing the same thing as TP burns in Caedarva Mire with an AoE kickback attack rather than AoE silence/amnesia.

Colibri are decent. Magic barrier causes problems with any enfeebles so you need to be careful of what you cast on them, their pecking attack takes all shadows and still inflicts damage, but worst of all, they steal food from anyone with hate which means the tank should never consume food. Being that the average party is a TP burn, everyone tanks so no one uses food (great for cheap players). So you're basically forced to forgoe some attack gear in exchange for decent accuracy unless you are meritted enough to get decent accuracy (I'll get back to this).

Trolls suck. Heavy defense and unless you have double bards, it's hard to keep damage up and chain decently. You'll get consistent high chains, higher than 5, but much easier to lose chains as well. Decent experience and for most, it's a last resort if all other camps are closed.

Mamool Ja's (Thinkets/Nyzul) are the best experience hands down for any TP burn regardless. Whether you chain to 1 million or chain 10, it's still better than anything anywhere else. YOu can use food, the mobs don't have higher than normal defense, and the base exp is good. Basically getting sub 200 exp per mob on chains and 120 min (ignoring pets). So why would a party be better any where else? The only real downside is high evasion mobs, but unless you're a complete gimp or just stupid, you can avoid losing chain on them with a little effort and thought. So again, why do you think you deserve it more? And wouldn't "elite" cannons make more out of colibri because of their better than average acc and full weapon merits when most melee need the accuracy of sushi, but I don't see anyone arguing to take that area?

Personally, I think you just want what's best for you and you'll make any argument to that extent.
 
Quite a few things wrong with these statements.
A. TP-Burns existed long before ToAU. ToAU only enabled sub-par equipped people to grind out exp faster, and popularized it. Many people were doing burns long before this, MNK burns in KRT, as well as NIN/WAR/MNK burns in sky on deco's/aura weaps/aura statues.

B. There is so hate control in burn parties. The use of /nin is vital so that anyone CAN pull hate, but the reason for a haste order ensure the person with the hate the most has their shadows readily available.
Claiming no one uses ichi is ignorant beyond belief...I personally use it more often then Ni.

C. Claiming a cannon party isn't team-oriented is completely bullshit. Again, perhaps a subpar cannon isn't team oriented and just wack wack wack, but it takes people who exercise their roles perfectly to make a cannon run smoothly. If you've EVER read into cannon parties, you realize its not a spam of asuran/rampage, but timing of weaponskills to further the chain, saving tp, ensuring the right songs are on at the right times, etc, etc, etc. Also not killing some mobs as fast, holding off on weaponskills to ensure the pop-rate is even. I don't know how many times I've said to myself, we're killing too fast.
Just because the strategy isn't the same as a skillchain party doesn't mean it is non-existant. Keeping up the pace of a kill while keeping select members away from danger and able to rest at opportune times doesn't come easy, nor does putting your own numbers aside for the betterment of a group. I've done both, and performing to your potential in a cannon gunning for 25k per hour is not only much more exciting, but much more challenging then holding hate on two members skillchaining.

Unfortunately, as PLD is my only job to 75 (and will remain so due to military time constraints), I've only heard about the burn parties that you speak of, primariy through Rappa and thirdhand through Draciot. The ichi comment came only from what I've heard some WARs bitching about quasi-burn parties that I've set up ("We're taking too long - the mob's still alive and I have to use Ichi"). I guess they were just scrubs.

The hate control I'm talking about is a single tank keeping a flawless hate cycle along with excellent gear that enables him to keep a hate threshhold high above what the DDs in his party would normally break. Basically, it's what a PLD should be doing at 60-70 and what a NIN (like Limi) can do through both damage, a good hate routine and very sick gear even against VT mobs at 75. In my opinion, just spreading out hate between shadowed DDs is not controlling hate - it's maximizing damage. I'm not knocking it - it works phenomenally. It's not tanking, though.

That said, whenever I see some variation of WARx3 NIN BRD RDM, (usually from the next camp over), I never seem to see a DD hold the casting stance long enough for it to be Ichi. I guess I'm just missing it. Now I am curious though... kill time for an "elite party" is what... 20-30 seconds for your average puk, maybe less? AOE moves aside, how does the mob have enough time to blow through 3 shadows on 3-4 different melee before your Ni timer is up again?

I realize burns were going on in sky, but common sense tells me that both due to weapon defense/HP and AOE stun, they weren't anywhere *near* as efficient as burning off of low-defense/HP mobs found in the ToAU areas. Also the repops on the mid-range weapons were what, 5 min each on 16 weapons in a room? I believe it's 3 min repops on the puks/colibri and 5 min on the mamool. I'll have to count sometime. Point is, I believe the ToAU areas were designed for the burn vs. sky being made for the standard party and just turned into a burn by parties with the highest end of equipment.

No question a cannon party is more exciting for the BRD. As a matter of fact, I feel sorry for those guys sometimes. Pulling at a rate so that there is always a mob ready to engage, keeping mobs slept, keeping melee songs *and* ballad on AND sometimes throwing in a cure or two is far more work than even my most strenuous times tanking. It just does not seem to me that there is as much strategy on the DD and quasi-tank side. If metering out a cannon party is more exciting, then I'd like to see it (this real canon you're talking about) sometime. Even in my best parties, we've killed no where near fast enough to exhaust a zone (unless there was another party or two on top of us), and it was never a matter of holding back.

Call me old fashioned, I just miss seeing SATA Kasha > SATA Spinning Slash followed by my own Savage to another Kasha for four magic bursts (two from the BLM and two from the RDM and maybe even a bursted flash from me). It may not be holding back on a Rampage waiting for that next pop, but it just felt good to have all that come into place.

Seeing an IT that normally took 2 min to kill drop in 30 seconds just felt good.
 
Lavi said:

On the topic of Colibri... you're wrong in almost every regard. >_>

Colibri don't really need enfeebles, and if you want to enfeeble them, it'll probably just get absorbed by a melee shadow. If not, Blink will absorb it, so cast that sometimes. Colibri are easy to hit (and if your party has a BRD like a TP burn should, madrigal makes it a complete non-issue), and no, you don't not use food. You use Meat Mithkabobs. Several stacks of them. Share some if one guy runs out early.
 
Celvantes, you aren't mistaken about the Ichi thing. Ideally, in a balanced party to maximize damage potential you want to keep a Ni > Ni transition. Casting Ichi during a battle kills your dot as your character usually doesn't make any melee swings for those 4 seconds.

Normally when you see someone resorting to using Ichi it's because of one of two reasons. First is just plain bad luck. You have just cast Ni and immediatly the Mamool Ja uses Rushing Drub/Vorpal Blade/FireSpit etc, so it's no where near back up for recast and you have no choice. The second usual reason is your DD aren't balanced. One person is doing alot more than the others and as a result they are unable to bounce hate around. You can't expect a freshly dinged 75 NIN, MNK, or WAR with nothing but AH equipment to pull their weight against someone who is completely geared and merited. This is why pickup parties are a gamble. All player characters are not equal, just because they are on one of the so called "cannon jobs" doesn't mean much if anything.

Talking about the "strategy" and "tactics" of TP burn vs SC party is kind of pointless I think. In all seriousness this is a video game and nothing in it requires you to be a General Patton or Alexander the Great to play it. With the exception of something like Absolute Virtue which people can't figure out, there is nothing remotely complex about playing as far as tactics are concerned. I don't see how setting up SATA and a MB would be considered any more difficult than a TP burn, manaburn, BST soloing, or any other kind of setup you can think of. Like I said before it's mostly just repetiton, timing, player stats vs mob stats, paying attention, a little bit of skill thrown in, and luck. No one is splitting the atom playing the game one way or another.
 
On the topic of Colibri... you're wrong in almost every regard. >_>

Colibri don't really need enfeebles, and if you want to enfeeble them, it'll probably just get absorbed by a melee shadow. If not, Blink will absorb it, so cast that sometimes. Colibri are easy to hit (and if your party has a BRD like a TP burn should, madrigal makes it a complete non-issue), and no, you don't not use food. You use Meat Mithkabobs. Several stacks of them. Share some if one guy runs out early.
people eating mithkabobs is still quite rare at that camp ikari. I've never actually gone there and seen another person beseides me using em and I make a point to tell people to use them multiple times. So yes. People do go to that camp to secifically not have to eat food.
I personally disagree with the idea of a brd ever casting madrigal considering Colibri were low eva before I even had my dagger merits halfway finished.
People needing madrigal for those birds is a sign that they never bothered buying sniper/woodsmans rings like a good little dd or took the time to get a life/swift/potent belt. Just my opinion of the birdies though.
 
I got over a chain 100 with random qcdners on colibri w/o anyone eating food. I was pulling on brd and the only "enfeeble" was carnage elegy. I was also using min/march and everyone was still hitting just fine.
 
The point isn't that you can't go without food, it's that you -shouldn't-. Mentioned madrigal not because you need it, but because it's there if somebody's an idiot.
 
I'm surprised everyone always talk about the same camps, even those that pretend to be elite players lol. There is one camp that i did not see mentionned, the one in Helldiva isle, G7. There are like 20 imps and no Soulflayers there. You can chain them endlessly.
 
Talking about the "strategy" and "tactics" of TP burn vs SC party is kind of pointless I think. In all seriousness this is a video game and nothing in it requires you to be a General Patton or Alexander the Great to play it. With the exception of something like Absolute Virtue which people can't figure out, there is nothing remotely complex about playing as far as tactics are concerned. I don't see how setting up SATA and a MB would be considered any more difficult than a TP burn, manaburn, BST soloing, or any other kind of setup you can think of. Like I said before it's mostly just repetiton, timing, player stats vs mob stats, paying attention, a little bit of skill thrown in, and luck. No one is splitting the atom playing the game one way or another.

Well said, bravo.

I think this is a moot thread. Play how you want in what type of party you want. If you prefer cannons because you find them fun or even if you just can't stand to "waste time" with less than 20K per hour, feel free to decline the offer to my (hypothetical) PLD, THF, BST, RDM, WHM party that just needs a DD. I won't take it personally. In fact, in 30 seconds I'll be further down my /sea list and I won't ever remember your name.

But once I'm set up and xp'ing don't camp on top of me, and I'll show you the same courtesy. I can't tell you how many times I've been getting 10-12K per hour, only to have a cannon drop on top of us and reduce it to 7-8k. My only response is "I was here first." I have soloed at least 10 levels on THF, and I don't mean the fast low levels either. You think 7-8k/hour scares me or that BST off? LOL. We will be perfectly happy to take 8k/hr and drop your potential 25k down to 12k. It's not a cannon camp... it's *a* camp.
 
On the topic of Colibri... you're wrong in almost every regard. >_>

Colibri don't really need enfeebles, and if you want to enfeeble them, it'll probably just get absorbed by a melee shadow. If not, Blink will absorb it, so cast that sometimes. Colibri are easy to hit (and if your party has a BRD like a TP burn should, madrigal makes it a complete non-issue), and no, you don't not use food. You use Meat Mithkabobs. Several stacks of them. Share some if one guy runs out early.

I meant you cannot just freely cast magic on it because of the reflect. You can't spam debuffs like you would normally nor any form of magic, but you do stick with the essentials. I've also never seen anyone ever pop food that didn't do so unintentially. Even if I did bring food, I don't see the point in using food once every fight just to toss it away. Besides, I prefer the mamools and usually party on WHM 90% of the time.

Edit: For clarification, I originally was thinking of Sleepga since it's a very bad idea to use it on Colibri.
 
Last edited:
Ok, citing some common camps:

SC + MB party (ex: PLD DRK SAM WHM RDM BLM). Go beat up trolls. Seriously. All the complaints about high defense and not very good targets for TP burns (though really good ones can, as an aside, still make it work there) etc. - that's where skillchains and magic bursts shine.

Manaburn party: flans.

Manaburn small group/solo: wamouracampa (with maybe a stray flan or two), or head off to sea and play with most anything (phuabos come to mind).

Really really gimpy TP burn: your farming mob of choice. Ungimp yourself.

Melee + support or 2x melee + support small group: imps.

Moderate TP burn: easy TP burn mobs, such as south Mamool Ja Staging Point (focusing primarily on the puks), or share a Greater Colibri "level" with another moderate TP burn. If crowded, reasonable alternative is Deco Weapons in Ru'Avitau.

Good TP burn: see above, but emphasize Mamool Ja more at south MJSP. Probably take up a whole Greater Colibri "level" on your own. If crowded, reasonable alternative is Uleguerand, or Aura Weapons in Ru'Avitau.

Awesome TP burn: north MJSP, inner Mamook, Nyzul Bhaflau Mamool Ja level. The theme of target mobs should be apparent. Said awesome TP burn will be composed of competent enough players to know not to bother trying to make a party during crowded merit times so alternatives are usually a non-issue. However, "good TP burn" options work reasonably well.

Stick a moderate TP burn at north MJSP? Repops eat them. Therefore, you don't go there with a moderate TP burn. This isn't just for the sake of leaving it open to the awesome TP burns, it's for the sake of not getting eaten by repops, and instead targeting mobs that aren't as dangerous anyway. This is not rocket science.

Imps, for the record, are generally to be avoided by any fast-paced full party. Low base exp for one thing. Low health for another meaning sometimes (and this is more true the better your party is) you kill too *fast* and risk losing chain that way (this is also a reason why awesome TP burns tend to do *worse* on puks). Ridiculously annoying specials. Better suited to small groups or some solo jobs (BLU comes to mind), not TP burn merit parties.

The dilemma, really, is people's egos, and you've got moderate TP burns thinking of themselves as awesome TP burns.
 
I just play what I want. If I feel like playing Rng, I play Rng. Will I get a quicker invite, more xp, for less gil on Nin; probably. But if you're playing the game purely from necessity and no longer for what you enjoy, why are you still playing?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top