Silly Putty, and the Off Hand.

Behold the big red mathematical editing pen of doom!

ΔSTR= (75+22)-77 = 20

Yes...

fSTR(2)=(12+4)/2 = 8

No...

fSTR2 approximation: (ΔSTR+4)/2 = (20+4)/2 = 12
fSTR2 from fSTR2 table (with, incidentally, either weapon rank 4 or 5): 12

You don't plug fSTR2 itself (12) into the fSTR2 approximation function which takes ΔSTR (20). :P

Anyway, so fSTR2 is 12 for both weapons, and weapon rank isn't a concern since ΔSTR isn't big (or small) enough to be hitting the boundaries it sets.

Also, fSTR = (fSTR2)/2 = 12/2 = 6. fSTR is used for melee, fSTR2 is used for ranged. Last I checked, swords and axes were melee weapons. The formulas just say fSTR(2) to indicate "use fSTR or fSTR2 appropriately", hence the 2 being in parentheses.

So anyway, fSTR = 6, and weapon rank is irrelevant in this case.

Base Damage of Maneater = 49+8 = 57
Base Damage of Perdu = 44+8 = 52

Corrected to (by the logic above):

Mbase = 49+6 = 55
Pbase = 44+6 = 50

The final calculation in melee hits is the relation of DEF/ATT which for you would be near similar due to your merits. Because of this we'll keep the raw Base dmg of the weapons as the sole comparison point.

DPS of the weapons:
Perdu - 10.13
Maneater - 9.35

So first Maneater:

Jamal's raw damage (patent pending) = 57x9.35 = 532.95

Perdu:

Jamal's raw damage (patent pending) = 52X10.13 = 526.76

Those "DPS" numbers (off Somepage or something, I'm guessing) are nothing more or less than 60 * DMG / Delay. And furthermore they use the "non-latent" (i.e. over 100% TP and thus generally irrelevant) DMG numbers.

The complication here is that we're factoring in a Ridill which is ultimately generating about 2/3 of the damage (since it's generating about 2/3 of the hits). Regardless, just going with a simplistic approach which completely ignores dual wield... let's do 60 * base damage (adjusted to include fSTR) / delay. To get a number similar to that "DPS" but a little more useful. Although it still needs to have a full Ridill-included calculation made.

MDPS: 60 * 55 / 276 = 11.96
PDPS: 60 * 50 / 225 = 13.33

Perdu's delay advantage is less significant when dual wield is factored in, and furthermore both weapons have to be averaged with Ridill damage (and an average of two Ridill hits to every one mainhand hit, on top of that) as well in that case. Which makes it much too complicated for me to want to think about before dinner. But the interesting point here is that single-wielded, Perdu has better adjusted DPS, assuming you get same (or close enough to say so) attack values with either sword or axe mainhand.

WS base damage formula (From here on Pxxx will be for perdu, Mxxx will be maneater:
Base Damage = floor( (D + fSTR(2) + WSC) x fTP)

Pfloor = 44/9 = Rank 4
Mfloor = 49/9 = Rank 5

Using the numbers from above, we can update formulas:
Pbasedmg: 4(52+WSC)xfTP)
Mbasedmg: 5(57+WSC)xfTP)

WSC is the secondary ws attribute modifier, in this case .25 STR for both weapons
WSC=.25(75+52)=31.75

Formulas updated to include:
Pbasedmg:4(83.75xfTP)
Mbasedmg:5(88.75xfTP)

"Floor" means "round down to nearest integer", not "multiply it by the weapon rank". :P

Both weapons do indeed have the same WSC, namely 30% (not 25%) STR. Furthermore you have to do that annoying little level correction thing (0.83 at level 75). And also it was +57, not +52, STR on WS. So...

WSC = floor (floor (0.3 * (75+57)) * 0.83) = floor (39 * 0.83) = 32

MRampagehit: floor((Mbase + WSC) * fTP) = floor((55 + 32) * fTP) = floor(87 * fTP)
PVorpalhit: floor((Pbase + WSC) * fTP) = floor((50 + 32) * fTP) = floor(82 * fTP)

fTP is the secondary dmg modifier...
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/wsclist.htm for more information

Vorpal Blade ftp: 1.0 for all 4 hits. (5 since dual weilding swords)
Rampage ftp: .5 for first hit, 1.0 for remaining 4.

Pbasedmg:4(83.75) = 335
Mbasedmg first hit: 5(44.375) = 221.875
Mbasedmg remaining: 5(88.75) = 443.75

Total WS Base dmg:
P: 5(335) = 1675
M: 221.875 + 4(443.75) = 1996.875

Mrampage = 1x Mrampagehit with fTP = 0.5, 4x Mrampagehit with fTP = 1.0
= 43 + 4*87 = 391
Pvorpal (with a sword offhand) = 5x Pvorpalhit with fTP = 1.0 = 5*82 = 410

Both of those numbers will (on a hit by hit basis) be further multiplied by pDIF of course. Your attack would have to be pretty damn sad to be getting the 1.0 pDIF assumed in those calculations (by omitting it and thus assuming multiplying by 1.0).

Oh, and if I've done my math right (done quite enough math in this post, sparing the formulas from here on), Maneater/Ridill is 5.5% TP/hit, Perdu/Ridill is 5.1% TP/hit. 19 and 20 hits respectively to 100%. Average of 3 hits per attack round in either case (I assume Ridill is equal probability 1, 2, and 3 hits?), meaning an average of 7 attack rounds to go 0%-100% in either case (19/3 rounded up vs. 20/3 rounded up, 7 either way).

However, you're usually not starting at 0%, you're usually starting at 5.5% + 4*1% = 9.5% and 2*5.1% + 3*1% = 13.2% respectively. Which means 17 hits to 100% for M/R and 18 (juuuuuust barely) hits to 100% for P/R. However, that doesn't really change much of anything, because 17/3 rounded up and 18/3 rounded up both give 6 attack rounds on average.

(All of the above is with no Store TP.)

So, let's take that 6 attack rounds and see how long it takes. M/R has combined delay of 409.6 (dunno if that gets truncated, not much difference if it does), or 6.83 seconds. P/R has combined delay of 368.8, or 6.15 seconds. Thus M/R is 40.98 sec to 100% after WS, P/R is 36.9 sec to 100% after WS. On average of course.

Those will each include 6 mainhand hits, so M/R will get 6 hits of 55*pDIF damage in 40.98 sec (~8.05*pDIF DPS), and P/R will get 6 hits of 50*pDIF damage in 36.9 sec (~8.13*pDIF DPS).

To recap: P/R gets better DPS on the way to 100%. P/R gets to 100% faster. P/R does a more damaging WS at 100%. About all that's in Maneater's favor at this point is the higher base skill lending itself to more accuracy and more attack (higher pDIF). Otherwise, Perdu kinda beats it on all fronts.
 
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Thanks...I was rushing and made big errors lol
 
MADNESS!!!!!!

OK, but what about a theoretical Comapny Sword/Ridill combo? According to you it shoudl absolutely rape all, but in practice, iirc it was not as good as what I am seeing(testing later though).

Thanks all for the help on this btw. Hate to spring it on a monday when everyone is already trying not to think...
 
Just remembered that I forgot to adjust fSTR on the WS (since +57 != +22). So the WS numbers will be slightly higher than I showed, and you might actually hit the fSTR ceiling (based on weapon rank) on WS. So Perdu Vorpal may not win the WS contest by quite such a wide margin (think it still wins it, but much too lazy to do the math out; about to run off for food too).

EDIT: I'll do the math out for Company Sword when I get back. But one notable thing that plays into this surprisingly heavily is the time to 100% TP. Weapon delay affects that more than I always expect it to.
 
OK, but what about a theoretical Comapny Sword/Ridill combo? According to you it shoudl absolutely rape all, but in practice, iirc it was not as good as what I am seeing(testing later though).

Thanks all for the help on this btw. Hate to spring it on a monday when everyone is already trying not to think...

Hrotti was always solid as well.

Edit:
Which reminds me:
The differences between Company Sword and a 46dmg sword wouldn't be that vast I would imagine, but I can't say that for sure. Then again, before the 2-hand update my highest WS of any type on HNM was a 2083 Savage Blade on Behemoth...
5 bucks if you can guess the weapon I was main-handing...

In case you were curious, I was main-handing macuahatl+1 for this on WAR for fun...I don't think I'll ever have an explanation for it.
 
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Hrotti was always solid as well.

I hate you... I want that sword pretty badly, but it never drops when I am there, and the damn thing never pops at a time I can go.

FYI: Company Sword is 54 Base @ 264 Delay for reference, I thought it was 52 base, but it's widely accepted it's 54.

10 Base damage higher Vs. 15 Attack and 5 Accuracy is a tough call.

My Question is why is this shit only popping up now? I am sure someone's goofed off and tested this shit at some point...
 
Hrotti was always solid as well.

Edit:
Which reminds me:


In case you were curious, I was main-handing macuahatl+1 for this on WAR for fun...I don't think I'll ever have an explanation for it.

4 hit double attack with offhand hit double attacking for max crit?

That's 10 hits critting... iirc the offhand is prevented form DA somehow during WS, but it's the theoretical "max" damage you could do.
 
I hate you... I want that sword pretty badly, but it never drops when I am there, and the damn thing never pops at a time I can go.

FYI: Company Sword is 54 Base @ 264 Delay for reference, I thought it was 52 base, but it's widely accepted it's 54.

10 Base damage higher Vs. 15 Attack and 5 Accuracy is a tough call.

My Question is why is this shit only popping up now? I am sure someone's goofed off and tested this shit at some point...

Company always lost in parses I've seen to axe, but I've never seen it coupled with Ridill.

I should try out my Storm Tulwar too I guess lol.
 
4 hit double attack with offhand hit double attacking for max crit?

It was Warrior's Charged with MS, and I'm assuming the second hit proc'd DA as well. The power of that WS at 300%tp is pretty insane with Seiryu's Kote tossed in the mix as well.
 
Seriyu's Sword!!!!

I used to off hand this sword all the time, just for the bubblies(En-water)
This sword did some pretty nice Vorpals on Trolls when I used it. Had juggy offhand.
 
EDIT: I'll do the math out for Company Sword when I get back. But one notable thing that plays into this surprisingly heavily is the time to 100% TP. Weapon delay affects that more than I always expect it to.

Did you try this Vil? You don't have to, just curious if you did the math so I don't have to butcher it again.
 
Conked out early last night, as I'd only gotten 3 hours sleep the night before.

Corrections to previous post:

For Perdu-style weapons and Company Sword, the DMG used for weapon rank is the non-latent version. Result of this is that Pweapon rank and Mweapon rank are both 4, so the allowable range for fSTR is -4 ~ 12.

fSTR on TP was, as I already noted, 6.
fSTR on WS: ΔSTR = 55, fSTR2 approximation = (ΔSTR+4)/2 = 29, fSTR = (fSTR2)/2 = 14

That hits the fSTR cap, so for WS we'll use 12 for fSTR instead.

Sparing the math here...
MRampage hit (corrected): floor(93 * fTP)
PVorpal hit (corrected): floor(88 * fTP)

MRampage (corrected): 46 + 4*93 = 418
PVorpal (corrected): 5*88 = 440
(Both still need to be multiplied by pDIF, don't forget.)

Company/Ridill, here we go... my math's a little more careful this time too.

Cweapon rank: floor(46/9) = 5
Callowable fSTR: -5 ~ 5+8 = -5 ~ 13
fSTR (TP): still 6
fSTR (WS): ΔSTR = 55, fSTR2 approximation = (ΔSTR+4)/2 = 29, fSTR = (fSTR2)/2 = 14

So we hit the fSTR cap on WS, so we'll use 13 for fSTR on WS, 6 for fSTR on TP.

Cnormal hit: (54+6)*pDIF = 60*pDIF

WSC: still 32

CVorpal hit (all of these are multiplied by pDIF, which I'm omitting for brevity): floor((DMG + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) = floor((54 + 13 + 32) * fTP) = floor(99 * fTP)

CVorpal: 5*99 = 495
(Again, multiply by pDIF.)

So yes, CVorpal (495) trounces PVorpal (440) and MRampage (418 ), not factoring in pDIF (where CVorpal's at a bit of disadvantage due to not having +attack).

Let's do some delay and TP calculations. Company/Ridill has 400 combined adjusted delay (DW2, Suppa), which is incidentally a nice round number. So time per attack round is 6.67 sec. TP per hit is 5.4%. 19 hits from 0% to 100%. TP after full WS is 2*5.4% + 3*1% = 13.8%. 16 hits from 13.8% to 100%. Still average 3 hits per attack round, so average 7 and 6 attack rounds respectively.

So, time to 100% after WS with C/R is 6 * 6.67 = 40.02 sec (compare to 40.98 for M/R or 36.9 for P/R). Factoring in damage per Company Sword hit (6 of them, one per attack round) on the way there like with M/R and C/R, and we get 6 * 60 * pDIF / 40.02 = ~9.00*pDIF DPS (compare to ~8.05*pDIF for M/R and ~8.13*pDIF for P/R).

Recall that those are DPS numbers just counting the mainhand hits, not the Ridill hits. The Ridill hits can't be factored out entirely from a *DPS* comparison, because that includes their delay, which is different with each mainhand weapon. Not doing that calculation out here, just know that it should be included.

Conclusion: C/R gets visibly better DPS on the way to 100% TP than either of the others, and has a higher WS damage, but a relatively slow time to 100% (fairly close to and slightly better than M/R, slightly worse than P/R). However, it does suffer from issues with loss of accuracy and attack, which aren't factored into these calculations.
 
I'd say it'd be worth testing.

Jamal, Phraust, I'll be your first-voke NIN. ;D

You realize if this Fortitude Torque thing works out I'm going to want to retry everything, lol.
 
Yeah, and I look forward to it. I may be almost capped out on merits, but I can find places for them. :)

PLD gets enhancing/Divine/Healing magic. I'm in a constant rotation with them...
 
You realize if this Fortitude Torque thing works out I'm going to want to retry everything, lol.
I can BRD, my upcoming PLD needs merits.
 
ok...

I need to retest some shit But I did get some crappy data off of one of the worst merit parties I been in in forever... It seems that Perdu > Company Sword...

I think the added 15 attack added to the Ridill off hand and the noticably lower delay had more of an effect than the extra 50 damage per Weaponskill that I saw.

However, again, I need to see more... It was probably the shittiest Merit party i been in, and if anyone's merited with me knows, even when it's bad, I never walk out... I walked out on these hosers... A bad merit party is an oppertunity to work on exp buffers, and test shit out/screw around... This party was just an exquisite lump of crap...
 
FYI: Company Sword is 54 Base @ 264 Delay for reference, I thought it was 52 base, but it's widely accepted it's 54.
I thought it was 56. 46 base, +2 per member in pt not including yourself.

As for testing - it's not as difficult as it seems, it just requires some co-operation from your pt. Just don't dual wield. Mainhand Company for a couple dozen fights, let the parser pick up melee low/high and crit low/high along with WS low/high/avg/count. Do the same for perdu, compare to see which is better.
 
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