State of the Thief

Khajit has summed THF up very well. I actually have never seen his thf, but good advice from him.

THF is my main as well, and I'm gonna say it's quite gear dependant. I am easily able to keep up with other DD, and can bust out some nice numbers. (Averages - Collibri: 1200-1500. Mamool: 900-1000) As far as SATA is concerned, it's up to you to make it work. I don't rely on anyone, I TA the tank and I SA WS every chance I get. If I SATA, I'm going to Hide and Assasin's Charge it and get some huge numbers which is always fun :) (This tactic can be used ANY time on collibri, as they don't aggro, which means hide will cause them to deaggro or allow to Hide even while engaged)

As with Dynamis... I'm gonna say Mandalic Stab is your friend. Yes, it's our new mythic weaponskill and it shines in Dynamis. (It shines on anything that has high defense, much more than multi-hits and replaces Shark Bite - but definatley not in merits) Not going to mention names at all, but my Mandalic Stab beats just about every ws I see, including Mercy Stroke. (in Dynamis Xarc, even bosses). From what I can tell, DEX and attack appear to be what affects it most. But I'm still WSing in +53 STR on it, too.

But yeah... don't let anyone tell you thf isn't a good dd! They certainly can be, but as with any job on this game, there are bad ones out there (just more common with thf for some reason)
 
Twinzero said:
But yeah... don't let anyone tell you thf isn't a good dd! They certainly can be, but as with any job on this game, there are bad ones out there (just more common with thf for some reason)
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It's good, but it's not great or awesome or omgwtfamazing, just simply good... if you have a good player. Even with the advantage in the THF's favor on merits with colibri where they get a damage bonus, THF still can't out DD higher tier jobs and thus usually ends up on the sidelines. Don't get me wrong, I leveled THF as my second job and I am quite well geared at that, but let's not mince words here: If I want merits, I'll seek on WAR, get the invite in 1/10 the time and still get 100 times the merits just for that reason alone.
 
I'm gonna have to disagree on that part based upon my experience from when I still could parse fights.
If your statement is true then either SE has given my thf some kind of superbuff and has been cheating for me from the moment I got a parser or you're speaking specifically about sams.
Samurai is the only job I've seen so far that is hard or troublesome to outDD consistently. I didn't have alot of parses vs war/sam either so I'm going to assume that those are equally ridiculous in the DD department based upon my almost unmerited war/sam doing equal damage to a ridill war.
EDIT:I'm not saying thf is the ultimate DD here in case anyone assumes i am. I'm just pointing out that the idea of any job being a subpar DD simply because it's not war/nin/mnk/etc has never shown itself to be true in my experiences.(except pup and even then SE has finally given it enough DD gear/merits/stringing pummel to the point where i actually wish I was on PC again to try and evaluate where it's actual potential is at. it still leaves 74 levels in which they suck but I'm guessing they'll take what they can get)
 
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I'm with Khajit on this one, lol.
Only part I agree with is WAR getting picked for parties quicker, but what else is new? People would rather count on selecting an "auto-pilot" DD if they have any doubts whatsoever. WAR doesn't automatically = more XP. THF can parse higher than typically expected, but they have to want it and earn it. If THF tries to go "auto-pilot" and doesn't make the most of their job abilities, you'd be better suited with a job like WAR or MNK. Not to say those jobs don't have ways of playing more efficiently as well, but they don't have near the amount of things to be concerned with to be spot-on accurate with to make the job shine. THF has to be top notch to excel (or even be noticed). Mainstream DDs can slack a bit (or a lot) and still "earn their place in a party".
 
You can say you outparsed a ridill warrior, a black belt monk, a relic samurai, or whatever, it's all the same and it's not representative of the whole. Give those same people either time to catch up in terms of gear, merits or playstyle and they'll beat you hands down the other 99% of the time. Or in some instances, those people will always suck because they're plain stupid, but that's another discussion entirely. My point is this: If you put two good players with equal effort into gear and merits, one a THF and one a top tier DD, the THF will lose based on the performance of the job and not the performance of the player regardless of how hard that THF tries.
 
Lavi said:
You can say you outparsed a ridill warrior, a black belt monk, a relic samurai, or whatever, it's all the same and it's not representative of the whole. Give those same people either time to catch up in terms of gear, merits or playstyle and they'll beat you hands down the other 99% of the time. Or in some instances, those people will always suck because they're plain stupid, but that's another discussion entirely. My point is this: If you put two good players with equal effort into gear and merits, one a THF and one a top tier DD, the THF will lose based on the performance of the job and not the performance of the player regardless of how hard that THF tries.
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Just a question... Do you have THF leveled?
 
They do. And even while not beating a 'cannon' job, Thf is still respectable and noteworthy when they do go the extra mile. It is more effort, but that doesn't make it not worth it for some people.
 
Lavi said:
You can say you outparsed a ridill warrior, a black belt monk, a relic samurai, or whatever, it's all the same and it's not representative of the whole. Give those same people either time to catch up in terms of gear, merits or playstyle and they'll beat you hands down the other 99% of the time. Or in some instances, those people will always suck because they're plain stupid, but that's another discussion entirely. My point is this: If you put two good players with equal effort into gear and merits, one a THF and one a top tier DD, the THF will lose based on the performance of the job and not the performance of the player regardless of how hard that THF tries.
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"Hands down the other 99% of the time..."

If we are assuming all things being equal then that's a gross overstatement. Yes, I mean skill. Yes, I mean gear (as equal as it can get when comparing WAR or MNK gear to that of a THF). Yes, I mean food and buffs. All of it. Including...Opportunity and cooperation. Since THF relies on these things more heavily than auto-pilot DD jobs, if they don't receive them as they should, then THF will not perform as it should, despite all the gear, skill, food, buffs, etc. It is part of how the job functions...Well. Without those things a THF really doesn't stand a chance.

Yes, I can say I've outparsed BB MNKs and Ridill WARs. Several have been "good" players with gear equal to mine. Perhaps they had a bad day? Who knows, but by the way the conversation and competition regarding parses went, you wouldn't know it. The parses I have lost have been a matter of being outgeared, as I don't have near the best gear, and/or the DD that outparsed me received something I didn't...A.K.A. All things NOT being equal, hence no reason to compare in the first place.
 
I notice that when these kinds of arguments pop up that the cannon DD has to be pimped for the cannon DD to not be considered gimp(as the main reasoning for why a thf might do similar or higher damage) but the standard set for the thf is 100x lower.
As an example.
A war can jump in with ridill/ebody and full haste gear barring maybe dusk+1 and only then are they considered strong enough for them not to be callled gimp if a thf wins the parse.
A thf on the other hand doesn't have to have(pick one or all) an X's knife,pcc, love torque,dragon/enkidu/skadi,and/or any homam/dusk but it's considered a fair fight vs the above DD or equivalent.
I personally find it impressive when the thf in that situation gets anywhere close but instead it's normally interpreted as thf(in general) is a weaker DD.
 
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Sneakypants said:
"Hands down the other 99% of the time..."

If we are assuming all things being equal then that's a gross overstatement. Yes, I mean skill. Yes, I mean gear (as equal as it can get when comparing WAR or MNK gear to that of a THF). Yes, I mean food and buffs. All of it. Including...Opportunity and cooperation. Since THF relies on these things more heavily than auto-pilot DD jobs, if they don't receive them as they should, then THF will not perform as it should, despite all the gear, skill, food, buffs, etc. It is part of how the job functions...Well. Without those things a THF really doesn't stand a chance.

Yes, I can say I've outparsed BB MNKs and Ridill WARs. Several have been "good" players with gear equal to mine. Perhaps they had a bad day? Who knows, but by the way the conversation and competition regarding parses went, you wouldn't know it. The parses I have lost have been a matter of being outgeared, as I don't have near the best gear, and/or the DD that outparsed me received something I didn't...A.K.A. All things NOT being equal, hence no reason to compare in the first place.
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I don't think it could have been put better. One of the parses that I "lost" on versus a well geared WAR, the RDM refused to haste me, hasting all the other melee. And even then I lost by 4% over all damage. If the WAR hadn't been hasted or if I had we'd have been on par at the very least.

This prejudice that THF aren't capable as DD jobs stems from lazy THFs or from unfairly comparing decent or well geared "standard" DD jobs vs a buddy's not well geared THF.

Given haste, let alone March, I can typically TP to 100% within 30 seconds. Stack that with TA or SA (alternatively every 30 seconds) and I'm doing on average 1k+ damage. The only thing that I've notice slow me down is if the entire group really is build on very strong players in regard to skill and gear. Mobs tend to die far too quickly in some of those cases, but its rare to have such a group unless its your friends.
 
Javir said:
This prejudice that THF aren't capable as DD jobs stems from lazy THFs or from unfairly comparing decent or well geared "standard" DD jobs vs a buddy's not well geared THF.
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You could say I am prejuidiced against thieves, but I would also be correct in saying the opposite is true as well.

Anyways... If thief was really that great, we'd see more proof of it, but we don't. You know why? Because the only people that "prove" it are the ones actively seeking to prove it.
 
Lavi said:
You could say I am prejuidiced against thieves, but I would also be correct in saying the opposite is true as well.

Anyways... If thief was really that great, we'd see more proof of it, but we don't. You know why? Because the only people that "prove" it are the ones actively seeking to prove it.
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Monk only became popular after people proved it was good, same with Dragoon, Dark Knight, etc. How is this any different from any other job that's been ridiculed over the years, exactly?
 
Khajit said:
I'm theorizing that thf might not get along well with drgs in merit situations since the hate goes all over the place from a drg ripping hate all the time and then jumping it away.
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Actually as long as the THF and the DRG have some form of communication it can work very well
 
I meant for sneak attacks since i'd expect em to have hate but then get surprised when a hig/super jump pops in at random. other than that there's no real difference to me concerning what DD is in the pt.
 
Neisan said:
Monk only became popular after people proved it was good, same with Dragoon, Dark Knight, etc. How is this any different from any other job that's been ridiculed over the years, exactly?
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Because those jobs had proof to back up the claims, parses showing clearly those jobs could do good damage when properly played and not just by carreer DRG, DRK or MNKs, by all players. Prior to that, players didn't parse much if at all so people only speculated at who was the best. THF doesn't have that. All thief has is random parses by thieves looking for something to prove. If as a community as whole saw something different, it would be out there by now, but it's not. There are tons of great thieves out there are all the servers all looking to show proof their damage can surpass BB MNK, Ridill WAR, and Relic whatevers, but unless those parses show that on a consistent basis that THF can compete, it's nothing more than a fluke.
 
Gohaan said:
Lavi,

Do you even have THF leveled?
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I don't see how that's relevant.

Regardless, i agree with most of what she's said.
 
Gohaan said:
Lavi,

Do you even have THF leveled?
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I already stated I did; thief has been 75 for 2+ years, was my 2nd 75 job and it is quite well geared. I would like to do more with it, but the opportunity doesn't come up both in end game and experience often.
 
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