Stop buying Ulli stones, you *#%*tards

[Bajaratt]

ya maybe before they change the ulli system, before gil seller camp it every window, before they started using bots. All that in past now, because rmt turn uli into sea serpent grotto.

Don't be so gullible. There are many players out there who still sell Ullikuumi stones. One of my great ingame friends is trying to sell one he got up there with some friends one day. Don't generalize that only RMT sell them. That's liek saying only RMT sell Okote, Fume Kyahan, etc when infact they aren't the only ones, you can outclaim them albeit not always but it is posisble and has been done multiple times. Don't run your mouth about shit you think you know.

If you get it on your own time, you can do whatever you want with it. Most people will save it for their sky shell, but some might want the millions of gil they'd make selling it or might not be in a sky shell so they don't care.

We've claimed Ulli when we were the only people in the room, and this was after the gil sellers started camping; so it's not like gil sellers claim every single ulli.

 

[jamal]

In all honesty though Jamal, how can you effectively flame someone for that? There are only two North American linkshells I can think of that are capable of killing Vrtra, and have done it. Many players don't have access to these linkshells. Makes sense to me at least =|.

I was being sarcastic. Its a shit-ass argument to say you haven't earned something because you buy the pop item. Its the same as buying other gear. People buy o.kote's because its easier to get the gil for it then to outclaim gilsellers and get the drop. This whole flame is ludicrous, and just made because of jealousy issues towards kaizen. Personally, I'm waiting to find an autumnstone in bazaar so I can SS myself buying it.
This is ridiculous, find something real to flame. As I said before, if no one bought gil, there wouldn't be gilsellers. Alm said they have bought 10 (I honestly think its less then that) stones in the past year. How many people have bought O.Kote's in that time. B.hides in that time. Speed Belts in that time. Cassie Earrings in that time. List can go on and on and on. Don't forget people who have bought dynamis currency and/or dynamis drops from RMT. They all should be banned for this.
This is just someone jealous of kaizen trying to flame them for something retarded. They have better things to do then sit there for 100 hours a week only to get outclaimed by botting RMT.

 

[Mistra]

I was being sarcastic. Its a shit-ass argument to say you haven't earned something because you buy the pop item. Its the same as buying other gear. People buy o.kote's because its easier to get the gil for it then to outclaim gilsellers and get the drop. This whole flame is ludicrous, and just made because of jealousy issues towards kaizen. Personally, I'm waiting to find an autumnstone in bazaar so I can SS myself buying it.
This is ridiculous, find something real to flame. As I said before, if no one bought gil, there wouldn't be gilsellers. Alm said they have bought 10 (I honestly think its less then that) stones in the past year. How many people have bought O.Kote's in that time. B.hides in that time. Speed Belts in that time. Cassie Earrings in that time. List can go on and on and on. Don't forget people who have bought dynamis currency and/or dynamis drops from RMT. They all should be banned for this.
This is just someone jealous of kaizen trying to flame them for something retarded. They have better things to do then sit there for 100 hours a week only to get outclaimed by botting RMT.

I see, I wasn't sure if that was sarcasm or not. Truth be told, I agree with you however. What people do is their own business. People should stick to that, and stop worrying about things so much. Now I defended my old linkshell, Fury, because I know they camp every single drop they get from Sky. I know many people resent Kaizen and other linkshells because of the accomplishments they make, but in all honesty, whos business is it but their own?

 

[Uzor]

I was being sarcastic. Its a shit-ass argument to say you haven't earned something because you buy the pop item. Its the same as buying other gear. People buy o.kote's because its easier to get the gil for it then to outclaim gilsellers and get the drop. This whole flame is ludicrous, and just made because of jealousy issues towards kaizen. Personally, I'm waiting to find an autumnstone in bazaar so I can SS myself buying it.
This is ridiculous, find something real to flame. As I said before, if no one bought gil, there wouldn't be gilsellers. Alm said they have bought 10 (I honestly think its less then that) stones in the past year. How many people have bought O.Kote's in that time. B.hides in that time. Speed Belts in that time. Cassie Earrings in that time. List can go on and on and on. Don't forget people who have bought dynamis currency and/or dynamis drops from RMT. They all should be banned for this.
This is just someone jealous of kaizen trying to flame them for something retarded. They have better things to do then sit there for 100 hours a week only to get outclaimed by botting RMT.

I don't in any way resent, or am in any way jelous of anything other linkshells have acomplished. I just want to make that clear.

And as I said before, personally I don't care if Kaizen buy stones or not. Hell, I can even understand them. I've done sky for way longer then I wish I had done. What I do, however, care about is how a LS which disagrees with RMT activities can buy stones from RMT. It's the same way with you, Jamal, about taking a strong stand against flee hacks and bots, and then allow Kabrina in to your LS because she is "sorry" (No, I'm not going to turn this topic about an argument about that. I'm just stating an example of what was said in another thread).

Basically, it sends the message that its OK as long as that particular person or LS do it, but not OK when anyone else do it. And yes, I do know that they didn't knowingly buy stones from RMT bazaars. I can fully understand that. My argument isn't about whether or not they did it. My argument isn't really about Kaizen themselves, as Almaut already explained that they didn't knowingly buy it from RMT bazaars, and I believe him. My beef is with the people outside of Kaizen who is defending them.

 

[jamal]

I don't in any way resent, or am in any way jelous of anything other linkshells have acomplished. I just want to make that clear.

And as I said before, personally I don't care if Kaizen buy stones or not. Hell, I can even understand them. I've done sky for way longer then I wish I had done. What I do, however, care about is how a LS which disagrees with RMT activities can buy stones from RMT. It's the same way with you, Jamal, about taking a strong stand against flee hacks and bots, and then allow Kabrina in to your LS because she is "sorry" (No, I'm not going to turn this topic about an argument about that. I'm just stating an example of what was said in another thread).

Basically, it sends the message that its OK as long as that particular person or LS do it, but not OK when anyone else do it. And yes, I do know that they didn't knowingly buy stones from RMT bazaars. I can fully understand that. My argument isn't about whether or not they did it. My argument isn't really about Kaizen themselves, as Almaut already explained that they didn't knowingly buy it from RMT bazaars, and I believe him. My beef is with the people outside of Kaizen who is defending them.

lol..."I don't wanna turn this into an argument about this but I'll say it anyway..." god you're a lUzor. You say your beef is with an LS that advocates against RMT activities buying stones from RMT. Next paragraph you said your argument isn't about Kaizen themselves, but the people outside of Kaizen. Just stfu and don't respond if you don't have a point to make. If you don't know what you're arguing, how does anyone else.

If you don't care about Kaizen doing it, don't argue. I'm not defending Kaizen, I'm attacking the OP for a bullshit flame on a bullshit topic. If he's gonna try to take down Kaizen, he best have better ammunition then this stupidity.

 

[Uzor]

lol..."I don't wanna turn this into an argument about this but I'll say it anyway..." god you're a lUzor. You say your beef is with an LS that advocates against RMT activities buying stones from RMT. Next paragraph you said your argument isn't about Kaizen themselves, but the people outside of Kaizen. Just stfu and don't respond if you don't have a point to make. If you don't know what you're arguing, how does anyone else.

If you don't care about Kaizen doing it, don't argue. I'm not defending Kaizen, I'm attacking the OP for a bullshit flame on a bullshit topic. If he's gonna try to take down Kaizen, he best have better ammunition then this stupidity.

Its a completely legit flame. According to him, Kaizen did something he thinks ruins the game. He started a flame on it.

Just because you want to lick Kaizen's ass doesn't mean everyone else want to do it =/

 

[jamal]

Its a completely legit flame. According to him, Kaizen did something he thinks ruins the game. He started a flame on it.

Just because you want to lick Kaizen's ass doesn't mean everyone else want to do it =/

Anyone who knows me knows I do everything but lick Kaizen's ass. Once again you're heads up your ass to far to make an actual judgement on the activities.
Did celv talk to the shell leaders before flaming? Hell no. He lost credibility for pointing out someone who DIDN'T even belong in the flame.
Just because you have personal issues against Courtney and Neo doesn't make your slanted judgements fair in any way.
If you're going to flame Kaizen, you could find a much better way, trust me. Pissing and moaning about Autumnstones "ruining the game??" God lol. Gimme a fucking break. This thread is as fucking stupid as all of Celv's posts. Only difference is this one is in the Flameboard instead of Good times

 

[Firestreak]

Looks like this was a fun topic. Been away in China for a month (and no, not supervising gilsellers )

The shell you belonged to used claim bots to try to outclaim regular players.
The shell you owned used fleehacks as a tactic to earn items.
Neither of which you felt were wrong enough to speak up about.

Maybe you should have a look at the definition of the term "hypocritical" that you've been spreading around so much...

Well it is not only criticize that others publicly for being indifferent towards cheats, but to make personal assessments towards people about their motivations when you've never even met them. If I was as immature as you about it, I'd go here and rant about how I think you don't really give a shit and you are for buying from RMT because it will get you your items faster, rather than giving you the benefit of the doubt you're not dropping your pearl because it's your linkshell.(Although Neophytal claimed he'd drop his pearl had he witnessed any condoned cheating.) The hypocrisy is after all your ranting, you then buy pops from the worst of the worst. It's kind of sad and pathetic, to be honest. Not towards the linkshell as a whole, but you individually to be exposed as such a person.

And no I don't condone claim bots, and as you claim you don't, I suppose that makes it possible to "know" none you've ever camped with have ever used one. Of course, we both know your pop items originate from claim bots.

 

[Uzor]

Anyone who knows me knows I do everything but lick Kaizen's ass. Once again you're heads up your ass to far to make an actual judgement on the activities.
Did celv talk to the shell leaders before flaming? Hell no. He lost credibility for pointing out someone who DIDN'T even belong in the flame.
Just because you have personal issues against Courtney and Neo doesn't make your slanted judgements fair in any way.
If you're going to flame Kaizen, you could find a much better way, trust me. Pissing and moaning about Autumnstones "ruining the game??" God lol. Gimme a fucking break. This thread is as fucking stupid as all of Celv's posts. Only difference is this one is in the Flameboard instead of Good times

I don't have a beef with anyone in Kaizen. I like Courtney. She's a good RDM. I like Neophytal too. He's a good MNK. So get off your high horse about that.

As for you not ass licking Kaizen... every time a thread about Kaizen gets brought up, you defend Kaizen, and say things like " This thread is as fucking stupid as all of Celv's posts.". I'd call that ass licking if I've ever seen it.

Don't play the innocent card on me.

And please, do tell me wtf he would talk to the leaders before making a post. Does he need to get their approval before posting it? I do believe you never talk to the leaders of any LS before you make flames. You sure as hell never talked to the leaders of OH or Antares every time you flame us. And yes, I can think of several ways to flame Kaizen. But I've never doen that, now have I? They don't flame me, and Kaizen as a LS haven't flamed OH or Antares. Thus, I don't flame them back. I do believe I've never flamed a whole LS at any point, even though I can think of several things to flame them about.

No, I flame people. I don't lable a linkshell as the same because of a few people's actions, even though I constantly see people labeling other linkshells based on the actions of a few people.

Geez, dude. You surely are an idiot.

Edit: just wanted to add that I have friends in all end-game linkshells. That's one of the reasons I don't usualyl flame LS's as a whole. There's no benefit in it for me. Why flame a shell as a whole when you don't like 1 or 2 (or more) people in it? Its unfair to flame a whole linkshell due to the actions of a few people. I agree. That's why I usually flame people, or argue with several people (even though I do occasionally mention a LS, which might be wrong of me, I'm still not flaming the LS as a whole, as I usually respond to a specific person). I'll say it straight out. I don't like you, Jamal. There's quite a few people I openly don't like. I don't expect them to like me either. And you can surely not expect any sympathy from me, ever. Although I do assume you don't expect me to give you any, so its all fair, no?

 

[jamal]

As for you not ass licking Kaizen... every time a thread about Kaizen gets brought up, you defend Kaizen, and say things like " This thread is as fucking stupid as all of Celv's posts.". I'd call that ass licking if I've ever seen it.

You mean like this thread ONLY? No one has more griefs with the Kaizen leadership then I do. Do I feel it warrants a flame thread? No. I'm not fucking ass kissing. I'm calling out stupidity, and frankly you arguing against me solidifies my argument, as once again, it'll end up with firestreak and you bringing up past instances to deflect from the stupidity of the OP. Oh wait, you already did that.
Stop calling me an idiot and start making sense Luzor. You seem to think i was in on the original flaming of OH. I wasn't. My first dealings with it at all was when I heard about the suspicions of people being temp/permabanned. I called it out because there was a viable proof that could be done to PROVE ME WRONG. I offered to SS the conversation and make a full apology with my tail between my legs IF SIREL LOGGED ON.
Why you must always recoil back to the same shit is beyond me. One thing I've realized though, is that the guilty often get defensive.

 

[Uzor]

You mean like this thread ONLY? No one has more griefs with the Kaizen leadership then I do. Do I feel it warrants a flame thread? No. I'm not fucking ass kissing. I'm calling out stupidity, and frankly you arguing against me solidifies my argument, as once again, it'll end up with firestreak and you bringing up past instances to deflect from the stupidity of the OP. Oh wait, you already did that.
Stop calling me an idiot and start making sense Luzor. You seem to think i was in on the original flaming of OH. I wasn't. My first dealings with it at all was when I heard about the suspicions of people being temp/permabanned. I called it out because there was a viable proof that could be done to PROVE ME WRONG. I offered to SS the conversation and make a full apology with my tail between my legs IF SIREL LOGGED ON.
Why you must always recoil back to the same shit is beyond me. One thing I've realized though, is that the guilty often get defensive.

I'll quote yourself for the bolded argument, but replace the names as I see fit.

Did you talk to the shell leaders before flaming? Hell no. You lost credibility for pointing out someone who DIDN'T even belong in the flame. (Sirelohir)

See, you didn't contact leadership before you started that flame. Cel didn't either. You both included names that didn't belong there. Therfore, your own flame was stupid.

That's itnerresting... hmm...

And I'm not only calling out what you did in this thread. You do it a lot.

And stop playing the innocent card. You lost the right to ask me to stop calling you an idiot when you started your pathetic attempts to insult me in this thread.

As for the last part, I have no idea where you're even attempting to go there. How am I "guilty"? Or are you refering to yourself, as you seem to be rather defensive of yourself...

 

[Firestreak]

I just want to mention Jamal that there's a difference between OH and the shell you were talking in that flame, though an OH member is leader of the new shell - many OH members didn't join and many new people who were never in OH joined. Just to clarify you're talking about 2 different linkshells as if they're one, same as if like I called purpose Kaizen because you were in Kaizen and now you're a leader in purpose.

 

[Mirewen]

I just want to mention Jamal that there's a difference between OH and the shell you were talking in that flame, though an OH member is leader of the new shell - many OH members didn't join and many new people who were never in OH joined. Just to clarify you're talking about 2 different linkshells as if they're one, same as if like I called purpose Kaizen because you were in Kaizen and now you're a leader in purpose.

That is a very good point.

 

[Firestreak]

I just want to start off by saying I’m truly sorry you all feel this way about the way kaizen obtains some of their stones. I'll start by reminding everyone we don’t buy from bazaars/people that we know or believe to be rmt. What more can we do? I know some of you feel we should be camping ulli aiding our fellow players in taking down the enemy which is rmt.

I'm sorry but I’m tired of hearing about rmt. This is a game, I play to have fun. Not to set out on some holy crusade in defeating the evil rmt's. We try our best not to add to the problem by not purchasing stones we know are rmt. Please try and understand myself and most my fellow members situation. Three years. That’s how long most of us have been doing sky. And like with most shells Ulli has always been a big part of sky. Standing around camping for hours in hopes that we get his claim. Personally I feel I've served my time at Ulli. I'm a very dedicated player, I rarely miss events in my shells and that includes the boring camping ones.

I received my byakko's haidate from a stone that was purchased from BD. Does that mean I didn't earn it? Does the fact that I didn't camp this particular Ulli mean that mines worth any less then others? I spent 70 points on that item. That’s 70 hours I spent camping with my shell at different events. Many of the people I've seen post on this thread against Kaizens actions are people who are friends of mine. So I felt the need to post here because it hurts me when people say I didn't earn my gear.

Will not buying stones result in rmt leaving Ulli alone? Possibly, but not any time soon. But do you know what? Not buying O kote's or B hides off the AH will have the same results. No you can't tell who is selling items that are sold off the AH I know this. I guess next time we buy a stone we'll look more closely at the name tag of the mule standing around.

Please don't use you can't pick who you buy from on the AH copout because the fact of the matter is 80% of those items are being sold by rmt campers and another 15% are being sold by people who had bought an rmt camped item and are now done with it. If you’re going to fight the war against rmt don't place it all on kaizens shoulders saying we need to set the example. Because our shells goal is to have fun. Not to fight wars that cannot be won. Go ahead and keep blaming us for all you rmt problems if you wish, I can change your views no more then I can magically make the rmt go away.
(Please note: These are my own personal views, not that of my shells.)

I'd just like to throw out that Courtney and others have argued before that my gear that I obtained in OH was not earned, even though I've never used a cheat, even windower. Furthermore, as an older member my gear was all obtained before that drama came out, but she argued how it made me this game's version of Hitler. You on the other hand got your Haidates off a bought stone directly. I can sympathize with your situation that the linkshell is a group effort and you put your dues in by overall participation, but by your own member's logic not only are your Haidates now "tainted" but so are people's who were obtained before you even bought any stones.
I can't justly attribute her views to you. Rather I think it's unfortunate that so few Kaizen members post here that 3 people have turned into your shell's voice on these boards.

If you want to talk about earning, as far as putting effort in equating to on a personal level having earned the gear... then it's a very vague statement. I've heard a boast before that within a week or two a new Kaizen member can get herald gaiters. I recall that in our OH Tiamat kills, none ever dropped. Algarius spent many months after getting all his WHM gear, coming to just about every single OH event, more than anyone else and always from the very start to the end. All he wanted was Herald gaiters one day. So to say he didn't earn herald's on a personal level and a new Kaizen member did merely as a question of how much effort it takes to obtain in your linkshell isn't really a fair sentiment. It's rather a simplification.

What is "earning" something? If by obtaining it, we earn it, then everyone earned everything they have. If it's putting in as much effort as it takes on average then as items get easier and easier to get people stop earning things.

I'm not trying to say you didn't earn your Haidates. Rather trying to say when people open the door to "you didn't earn blah blah blah", it turns into very very mirky water.

 

[Giaganta]

I just want to mention Jamal that there's a difference between OH and the shell you were talking in that flame, though an OH member is leader of the new shell - many OH members didn't join and many new people who were never in OH joined. Just to clarify you're talking about 2 different linkshells as if they're one, same as if like I called purpose Kaizen because you were in Kaizen and now you're a leader in purpose.

In the discussion that was going on during that last bannings/perma we never once stated that it was OH, we simply brought up that certain people were not logged onto the game and refused to till the time was lifted. Not once do i remember us flaming Antares as a whole.

 

[Firestreak]

I'm talking about right now, Giaganta, page 35.

 

[jamal]

I just want to mention Jamal that there's a difference between OH and the shell you were talking in that flame, though an OH member is leader of the new shell - many OH members didn't join and many new people who were never in OH joined. Just to clarify you're talking about 2 different linkshells as if they're one, same as if like I called purpose Kaizen because you were in Kaizen and now you're a leader in purpose.

Off topic:
This thread isn't about you. This isn't about Uzor. This isn't about Sirel. This isn't about OH. This isn't about any other shells then the ones mentioned in the start and the original posters feelings towards their actions. This is about Celv trying to call out Kaizen.

Look at my first post. I didn't say anything about you, Uzor, anything about Firestreak, anything about OH. I got called a Kaizen kiss-ass, so I retaliated, explaining why. I talked about the other items people buy from RMT, and said the flame must include them, which can be seen, is ridiculous.

You have not shown me why this is a relevant thread, only explaining that Celv feels Kaizen is "ruining the game" buy purchasing autumnstones with funds they allocated elsewhere in the game.

The reason I pointed out the 'feeling guilty' is because my first post said nothing about fleehacking, bots, etc etc etc, yet it was used immediately after I started posting. Fire, look back to your original defense against OH's accusations of fleehacking etc. How many times do you see me arguing with you guys on that thread. Yet the second I post about anything you bring it back to that.

Sirel had the chance to prove himself innocent Uzor. I didn't mistakingly include him in my list of people temp/permabanned. I asked him to login to clear himself from the list, to which he refused until Temp-bans were lifted. That is circumstantial evidence I admit, but doesn't mean I was misinformed to question his actions.

Back on topic:

This flame still is weak. I'm not kissing Kaizen's ass. They're developing revenue from other parts of the game, and using it to purchase 10 autumnstones per year from lvl 1 bazaars. That's smart. This flame is stupid.

 

[Vandoura]

LoL all right Kaizen Flaming!!!

400 reply, go go go!

Hehe said that on page one ^^

just couple of 50+ more reply to go, hurry up and get to 400+ Reply!! D: lol

 

[hellstorm]

I was being sarcastic. Its a shit-ass argument to say you haven't earned something because you buy the pop item. Its the same as buying other gear. People buy o.kote's because its easier to get the gil for it then to outclaim gilsellers and get the drop. This whole flame is ludicrous, and just made because of jealousy issues towards kaizen. Personally, I'm waiting to find an autumnstone in bazaar so I can SS myself buying it.
This is ridiculous, find something real to flame. As I said before, if no one bought gil, there wouldn't be gilsellers. Alm said they have bought 10 (I honestly think its less then that) stones in the past year. How many people have bought O.Kote's in that time. B.hides in that time. Speed Belts in that time. Cassie Earrings in that time. List can go on and on and on. Don't forget people who have bought dynamis currency and/or dynamis drops from RMT. They all should be banned for this.
This is just someone jealous of kaizen trying to flame them for something retarded. They have better things to do then sit there for 100 hours a week only to get outclaimed by botting RMT.

The open post has a legit flame. Most of us has done sky and have gotten all or most the item we want. We never had deal with the rmt. We could go up there in a exp party and camp for uli. Can you do that now? I garrentee if you was on the other side of the mirror, the ls that is just getting in to sky you would see this entirely diffent.(Same could be said about wyrms to but that diffent topic)
Also it funny you bring up item like cassie earring and serket rings, why do rmt control them? Because people stoped cc them. Even so items like cassie earring and o kote you have lot diffent salers because people resale them items. Uli stones on the other hand are only sold once and sold in bazzars. Though if there any blame should go to SE for not realizeing there flaw and making it even worse couple updates ago. All uli problems can be solved if they made it in 2-4 hour spawn like rest of the gods. This will make uli less desireable for rmt as well.

 

[Firestreak]

Off topic:
This thread isn't about you. This isn't about Uzor. This isn't about Sirel. This isn't about OH. This isn't about any other shells then the ones mentioned in the start and the original posters feelings towards their actions. This is about Celv trying to call out Kaizen.

Look at my first post. I didn't say anything about you, Uzor, anything about Firestreak, anything about OH. I got called a Kaizen kiss-ass, so I retaliated, explaining why. I talked about the other items people buy from RMT, and said the flame must include them, which can be seen, is ridiculous.

You have not shown me why this is a relevant thread, only explaining that Celv feels Kaizen is "ruining the game" buy purchasing autumnstones with funds they allocated elsewhere in the game.

The reason I pointed out the 'feeling guilty' is because my first post said nothing about fleehacking, bots, etc etc etc, yet it was used immediately after I started posting. Fire, look back to your original defense against OH's accusations of fleehacking etc. How many times do you see me arguing with you guys on that thread. Yet the second I post about anything you bring it back to that.

Sirel had the chance to prove himself innocent Uzor. I didn't mistakingly include him in my list of people temp/permabanned. I asked him to login to clear himself from the list, to which he refused until Temp-bans were lifted. That is circumstantial evidence I admit, but doesn't mean I was misinformed to question his actions.

Back on topic:

This flame still is weak. I'm not kissing Kaizen's ass. They're developing revenue from other parts of the game, and using it to purchase 10 autumnstones per year from lvl 1 bazaars. That's smart. This flame is stupid.

I don't know the personal story behind you and Kaizen so I'm not going to jump to the conclusion you're a kiss-ass. To be honest I'm not sure what you and Uzor right now are even arguing about. Rather I find it humorous that you feel cheating is immoral, but buying from cheaters is not. Really, what more is there to say?

I think claim bots are immoral, so I won't knowingly associate with people who use them. Level 1 bazaars selling stones are RMT. The JPs who sell them aren't level 1s and they have Japanese text in their bazaar messages. The level 1s are RMT and they have "You need sky gear? give us /tell" in that easily identifiable chinese take on the english language.

We're in agreement that it's a smart move to buy from RMT and we'd both do it. In fact, if a RMT said to me, "15 million gil - I get you koenig body!" I'd do it. It's not breaking the game's ToS. I'm still following the rules. The difference is, I don't really care if they are or not, that's their choice not mine.

You... on the other hand... claim that you do care.