No, this argument is retarded, thats why Nasya wins and thats why this thread does not continue. The only posts still continuing aren't even addressing the former topic because its already dead.
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
Stop buying Ulli stones, you *#%*tards
"we might have bought from RMT, but it doesn't matter cause we don't care about Ulli or Kirin" isn't exactly a win.
Just because they aren't proud of it, doesn't make it ok all of a sudden, just means they brought in their keynote speaker after everyone left the conference.
Just because they aren't proud of it, doesn't make it ok all of a sudden, just means they brought in their keynote speaker after everyone left the conference.
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 349
It looks pretty settled to me. They came out and said, "yes we buy stones" and "yes, 'maybe' it includes RMT" The facts were clarified, which was the only thing that was left to do.
There's nothing more to say. People will formulate their opinions on the LSs that were brought up, and the rationalizations offered by either side aren't gonna sway anyone's thoughts.
There's nothing more to say. People will formulate their opinions on the LSs that were brought up, and the rationalizations offered by either side aren't gonna sway anyone's thoughts.
meeze said:
Honestly, quit dragging this shit out. We all know by now you have no qualms about speaking out against RMT action. Many people are the same. We're over it. Kaizen is going to do what they do. There isn't a damn thing you can say more than you already do that will make them feel bad about themselves for doing exactly as Nasya explained. Overall, there's no fucking point in continuing. Everyone has said their piece, and you've said more than enough already. I have nothing against you, but quit trying to drag this on.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2005
- Messages
- 8,957
- Age
- 42
- Location
- ...In America
- Nation Banner
- Main Job
- Secondary Job
- Third Job
- Linkshell
- Kaizen
- FFXIV
- Bajaratt
Since you're trying to be above the NA, give me the list of the bazaars you've checked in the last year, along with what you bought and how much it cost. I'm sure an "intelligent" JP-sucker like yourself will have all of that information readily available, if only to prove how superior you are to everyone else.metachronism said:
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 349
Bajaratt said:
And here comes lower 5th percentile to assert the position of the oaf king. Hail!
Since the context is obviously in rooting out dubious sellers (i.e. potential RMTs), the answer is, nobody. I did buy an enhancing sword from a JP to toy around with, but that involved haggling, and I even remember the name, but there is no reason to expose it here. That's my one bazaar purchase in the last year. I even remember the person I sold it to afterwards. He's a member on this forum. Are you happy?
Yes, you're dumb. Just like skaw. I won't be as rude as to tell you to go die like some ghetto trash would say, but please, if you don't mind, stfu. Some might be entertained by your display of idiocy, others find it tiring. I'm somewhere in between the two.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2004
- Messages
- 688
decidence said:
Of course you think nasya wins; you have been agreeing with them from the get go. But here's the thing... what did s/he win? a cookie?
Meta is right on though. People have made up their minds about this topic. The only thing that can be said now is that any of the people arguing that what kaizen is doing is ok, cant really say anything about people 'cheating'.
These people are very vocal about everyone else 'cheating', yet are defending buying uli stones from rmt.
This would probably die quicker if people didn't try and drive the point that it ends on "Nasya winning" instead of the fact that both sides have said everything there is to say. She came in, explained her reasoning behind it. Emphasized how rarely it was done and half conceeded the points that her own side was arguing just to be difficult. I don't see it as a killshot post as much as a good post to help wind it down because it was splintering off in many different senseless directions.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2005
- Messages
- 8,957
- Age
- 42
- Location
- ...In America
- Nation Banner
- Main Job
- Secondary Job
- Third Job
- Linkshell
- Kaizen
- FFXIV
- Bajaratt
Yes, I'm the idiot for wanting ridiculous information that no one keeps, but then I'm only asking you for what you're asking anyone else. You remember one person you've bought a big item from; but then you haggled and talked with the person, not just opened the bazaar, bought what you wanted and was only near the person for 15 seconds. Asking for every single name they've checked over the course of a year is beyond ridiculous, it's insane.metachronism said:
Unless you keep track of every bazaar you enter, don't expect everyone else too.
Sirelrohir said:
No, Nasya doesn't win a cookie, I said she wins this thread. Because she came on and completely explained Kaizen's point of view on the topic thus closing the subject. Theres nothing left to argue except for the offtopic subjects that were spawned in this thread.
Sirelrohir said:
Thats the logic of a moron, but suprise suprise..
Anyway. Buying items from bazaars isn't cheating, regardless of how the item for sale was obtained. Get that through your thick heads.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2004
- Messages
- 688
Skaw said:
lol sure. keep namecalling bc it obviously strengthens your position. Glad to see one more hypocrite reveal themselves.
You haven't done anything to make me think otherwise. "They cheat because they buy from cheaters" is completely asinine - how someone could even spew forth that thought is not only idiotic, but quite suprising that they can magically create that link while painting themselves as innocent for the very same reason.
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2005
- Messages
- 4,050
- Age
- 42
- Main Job
- Secondary Job
- Third Job
- FFXIV
- hellstorm
Yes but that not what dragging this thread on, it the fact that people is ok with this. There is no outcome though so this thread should die, but I bet more shells be buying stone in the future because it been ordain ok here.decidence said:
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2004
- Messages
- 688
Skaw said:
Kaizen does not use voke bots. Kaizen does not use flee tools
Kaizen does pay rmt for uli stones (they say its probably not rmt, many others disagree). RMT use voke bots; RMT use flee tools.
Kaizen knows that RMT use these hacks.
You say that is not cheating. I say it is. Disagree all you want. Calling me a moron isnt going to change anyones mind.
To deci. The way i see it is that nasya stated her opinion on the matter, just like everyone else. I highly doubt that her arguement has swayed anyone to that point of view, just like i highly doubt anything i or others will say will change the point of view of those loyal to kaizen.
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 349
Bajaratt said:
Uh... come again? The names I was asking Kaizen to disclose were the people they BOUGHT from. The kaizen folks were very insistent that their buying process is very distributed, and that many people buy one, or maybe 2 stones. I'm asking for the recollection of ONE name from each of these people. In case you didn't know, one is the number that comes after zero, and comes before two.
Why the hell would I ask for all the bazaars they checked? That provides nothing insightful to this topic at hand. Maybe when you have as much free time as you do, that would sound like a good hobby. Yeah, catalogueging random bazaars. Sounds exciting.
Yes, very good, Bajaratt. That's exactly the point, autumnstones ARE relatively "big"--at least big enough that people would bother asking for reimbursements. In fact, they're worth right about as much as an enhancing sword! Wow!
It's also an item where it's common knowledge that the RMTs are camping consistently. That is precisely why anyone who cares about not funding the starving RMTs in china *would* take the time to look at the name before buying.
If you don't, then the culprit of that action is not illiteracy, not poor memory, not neglect, but a willfulness to buy from RMT.
Sirelrohir said:
had me going for a sec...
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2004
- Messages
- 1,325
- Location
- Adana, Turkey
- Main Job
- Secondary Job
- Third Job
- Server
- Quetzalcoatl
- Linkshell
- WallofAegis
- FFXIV
- Gregedor
Skaw said:
Actually Skaw if you viewed this as a real life scenario and not intangible bits of a video game, RMT cheating to obtain their goods is stealing. The buying of any stolen goods is punishable under United States Code. The punishment is a fine, jail time up to 10 years and/or both. This is at the federal level. Since internet actions often are typically either Interstate or International commerce, they fall under federal statue (especially since lots of RMT are in China). So his logic is not idiotic, it isn't even that far fetched. It is the law in this and most other nations. However, this is a video game and the items are bits in a database. As such they're governed by whatever agreement or ToS that SE decides to invoke. Which is why you may purchase in game items for in game currency from RMT and not be punished. You may not, however, pay RL dollars to obtain in game currency since that is specifically in the ToS.
The entire reason the RMT plague has arisen is the fact that SE does not enforce their own user agreement 90% of the time. GM's effectively look the other way or decide they can't hit a player with the ban stick. If you read the user's agreement in detail, however, you find this gem:
SquareEnix FFXI User's Agreement said:
SE retains the privillege to immediately terminate any account that violates the specific rules contained in Section 3 which includes the use of 3rd party software and real money trade. The GM's can in fact perma-ban any player on the spot for a violation of the ToS. It is the reality that they don't (and probably shouldn't over mere heresay that soandso did suchandsuch) that has caused a plauge of RMT on the server that day in and day out operate freely. If SE ever decided to create a crack down every player has agreed that they may be terminated for violating the ToS.
Actually positiong monitors or GM's to watch RMT activities would give them more than enough evidence of the use of 3rd party tools. They then can either continue to use their cheats and hope that their player replacement rate exceeds their ban rate, or they will cease to use the 3rd party software. Even after they have stopped cheating, they will still be here. It will be hard at that point to distinguish their behavior from anyone else on the server. It is at that point that nobody should have to buy Ulli stones or Byakko seals or anything else from them since we are all once again on an even footing for NM claims.
Sure you can continue to buy from them, but at that point you aren't sponsoring their cheating and encouraging them to continue, I'd probably not even care if your stones were purchased or camped. If you buy now, however, you are obtaining ill-gotten stones more often than not.
We all know the solution to this problem, and it's SE involvement. They can enforce their ToS at any time, but until lately have chosen not too. The fact that twice now a GM has been called before pop and shown up twice before pop has merit to it. They are taking an active role and for at least the following few hours RMT stopped cheating. They can't easily afford losing 12 level 75 accounts even with backup characters, especially if they know a GM is eyeing them every night. If SE became more responsive and forceful, we'd eliminate RMT as a threat to normal campers.
I for one have seen a marked improvement in the GM support ever since that task force was created. I can only hope that in time SE will gain the upper hand and free stones will be the norm again and not the exception. At that point is when I think this topic will be dead, not when we wish it to end, but when SE decides to end it.
Mistra said:
I don't even think I've posted more than 5 times in this thread, I'm hardly the one perpetuating it.
Giving them a pass because they are Kaizen is ridiculous and for the most part that is what is going on.
Had this been the old BoL or the Jins, everyone saying it is ok, would be saying "lol, you guys will always be scumbags"
Everyone who is anti-cheating turn their backs when a big LS is doing it because they want to stay on their good side.
My last post wasn't even directed at Kaizen, it was directed at the group of tools swinging from Nas's nuts sayiing she won the thread.
The argument whether it is right or wrong is still an argument, although most of the posts now are petty differences between a few people, posting their POV on it doesn't make a win. All the points had already been made prior to Nasya comiing on here, during the actual debate Kaizen was no where to be found.
If thats a win, then everyone who gets flamed should just wait 60+ pages before answering, in most cases though, I'm sure everyone would say they ducked the thread till it was old news.