Stop buying Ulli stones, you *#%*tards

Bajaratt said:
If you're trying to justify actions in this reality just because of what might happen in a fictional reality, you're really out of options to prove your point. If there is no way to know who they really are, then no one cares.
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In a party so need a minute to flesh out what I'm trying to say better, unless someone else understands it and wants to do it for me.
 
Okay Firestreak. I want you to go out to Batallia Downs tonight and make us a list of all the gilseller mules so that we know who not to buy from. Actually, why don't you go ahead and make a running list every night because heaven forbid someone accidentally buys from one out of ignorance! If you don't care enough about this topic to go do that, then stop caring enough to spit out your bullshit hypothetical twilight zone crap.
 
I mean, seriously. Someone in the linkshell you belong to(this applies to everyone, not just Fire) could very well be RMT. RMT aren't just chinese "sweatshop" workers. There are individual players who sell off unused currency for a little added RL spending money. You don't know if someone actually practices this method, because they'd most likely never make it public.

I'd be willing to bet a good chunk of IGE's gil comes from individual sellers.
 
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Bajaratt said:
What facts? That no one with half a brain would assume that someone without a brain would demand a list of the bazaars that I buy from?

I only know one bazaar that I buy from, because it's in the same place, selling the same thing, and I buy from it fairly regularly. Bautan. I don't know the owner, so since you apparently know every mule on the server, tell me who the owner is; I want to thank them for their awesome mule.
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Since it seems to be difficult to get the point across to you, let me make it clear: No one gives a shit about the dinky items YOU buy for yourself, Bajaratt.

The subject is strictly about hot-potato items such as the autumnstone. If word gets out that you are buying them, people WILL accuse you of buying from RMT, as is happening here. There is no way around that. If you want to defend yourself, then just disclose who you bought it from. If not, people will just assume you knowingly buy from RMT, and you're just hiding it by "forgetting" who it was.

If you don't want to do that, whatever. Don't. But expect shots like this thread to be taken on you.
 
Fire doesn't have a problem with RMT. He believes Neo and I are hacking because the LS we belong to has bought a couple of Ulli Stones which may have come from RMT... It isn't Kaizen he's criticising, or buying from RMT, it's Neo and I...
 
Firestreak said:
That's a different argument, the idea that it's impossible to know who a level 1 mule belongs to. People are arguing here that because it's impossible to know where your AH items come from that extends to Bazaars. Decidence and Jamal both say they'll buy from people they KNOW are RMT bazaars because of that extention.

Now that's fine by me, assuming they don't have a problem with RMT in general, which neither claim to be apathetic to.
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Actually I never said I will buy from RMT on purpose... I just said I don't care and I would buy without putting much thought into it. I won't let that shit bother me because if I did then I would let it affect the enjoyability of the game and I don't let other players (RMT or otherwise) do that. I have enuff things to worry about in real life that which bazaars I buy from are not even on the radar. Bazaars are faceless tools to me an extension of the auction house that I have to work a little bit more for. I don't remember a single name of a single person Ive ever bought something from bazaar. I don't even remember a name of a bazaar I bought out of last night or last week, I can't even remember the name of the gilseller that tried to sell me an autumnstone last night. It's something I don't pay attention too, the same way that I don't check the AH history after buying something to see who it was from.

I did the whole RMT hating thing a long time ago when they first became a problem, back when all they did was dominate tree cuttings and camp Lumber Jack, it wasn't worth the effort or stress, let SE do their job.
 
metachronism said:
Since it seems to be difficult to get the point across to you, let me make it clear: No one gives a shit about the dinky items YOU buy for yourself, Bajaratt.

The subject is strictly about hot-potato items such as the autumnstone. If word gets out that you are buying them, people WILL accuse you of buying from RMT, as is happening here. There is no way around that. If you want to defend yourself, then just disclose who you bought it from. If not, people will just assume you knowingly buy from RMT, and you're just hiding it by "forgetting" who it was.

If you don't want to do that, whatever. Don't. But expect shots like this thread to be taken on you.
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If you don't care about buying the little items from rmt you have no right to complain about people buying the big ones. There is no middle ground when you are calling people out for supporting rmt activities. It doesn't matter if the item is worth 5k or worth 5mil. Gil to rmt is still gil to rmt.
 
metachronism said:
Since it seems to be difficult to get the point across to you, let me make it clear: No one gives a shit about the dinky items YOU buy for yourself, Bajaratt.
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ProTip: RMT make WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more money from the "dinky items" than they do from Autumnstones. That giant lump inside your head's called a brain, use it sometime.
 
The difference is, plenty of REAL players mule/bazaar the dinky stuff. An automnstone though? Has any real player intentionally bazaar'd/sold something like that? I think you guys are foolin yourself a little bit.....
 
decidence said:
Why does everyone need to call eachother names to get their points across?
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You don't surf qcdn much do you? Meta flames people even in non-flameboard topics. It's the only way you can properly communicate with him. For reference purposes: http://www.qcdn.org/showthread.php?t=35854
 
decidence said:
Actually I never said I will buy from RMT on purpose... I just said I don't care and I would buy without putting much thought into it. I won't let that shit bother me because if I did then I would let it affect the enjoyability of the game and I don't let other players (RMT or otherwise) do that. I have enuff things to worry about in real life that which bazaars I buy from are not even on the radar. Bazaars are faceless tools to me an extension of the auction house that I have to work a little bit more for. I don't remember a single name of a single person Ive ever bought something from bazaar. I don't even remember a name of a bazaar I bought out of last night or last week, I can't even remember the name of the gilseller that tried to sell me an autumnstone last night. It's something I don't pay attention too, the same way that I don't check the AH history after buying something to see who it was from.

I did the whole RMT hating thing a long time ago when they first became a problem, back when all they did was dominate tree cuttings and camp Lumber Jack, it wasn't worth the effort or stress, let SE do their job.
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Alright to make what will probably be my final point on this thread I'm going to have to have to elaborate. First off let me say I don't hold any ill will towards you Courtney or Neophytal. This is just how I feel about morality and I'm just speaking my mind. I don't really have a grudge but coincidentally, my points may be construed as a personal attack. Nothing can be further from the truth. Just as I've argued I have the right to my own core set of beliefs, I'd argue that you do as well. So with that being said... what is the problem I'm having with this situation?

It's like a nail in my brain and it's been scratching me ever since I heard about this Battalia Downs fiasco. I couldn't put words to it, but something wasn't right about the whole situation to me.

Someone mentioned before that you can't criticize Kaizen for buying stones if you buy T-Shirts in the store. Why? Because those shirts are by slave laber. That struck me though at the time I didn't say anything and just let it stew in the back of my mind. I'll let that stew in the back of your mind too.

Now, what really is this thread except an attempt to remove the responsibilty of a linkshell who buys from level 1 bazaars from the actions most likely taken to attain those items. To this many defenses have been put forth, but not the only defense that's true and honest. I call bias based on the poor logic put into many of these defenses by people who are much smarter than that. Trying to say that the auction house is anonymous and that means you should treat bazaars as anonymous is just one of many examples of bad logic because there's no connection and it can be applied to justify anything.

The reality of the situation is, most of us have come to accept Real Money Trade is a part of FF. The difference is I accepted it before I started playing FF. If I wanted to buy gil, I'd buy gil. If I wanted an autumnstone and a RMT was selling one, I'd buy it. I don't criticize Kaizen for it. I just think we can all come to a realization.

When I go to the store and buy a T-shirt, I am knowinly buying an item that came most likely from child labor. If I wanted to, I could buy another shirt that would cost twice as much, just like if you wanted to you could camp Ulli yourself. I accept child labor and as a result I become morally indifferent. The fact of it is, we ALL become morally indifferent for the purpose of convieniance. We're not against child labor, we just don't want to see it with our own eyes. I want the cheap shirt, I don't want to see how it got made. You want the Ulli stone, you don't want to know how it was obtained. It doesn't really matter to you. You are morally indifferent.

Now all the defenses have been wrong thus far. You're all just trying to deflect from the real issue, and the real issue is that when you're buying a T-shirt from some random company you know you're supporting child labor and you don't want to admit to yourslef that you don't really care. You don't care, unless someone ELSE does it and you get to use that to judge THEM. We're all in charge of our own destiny, except everyone else, who is a motherfucker because of all the things they do that hurt other people. We'll go make signs and picket their house because they don't follow our beliefs.

All you really have to say is... "Personally, I don't like RMT. But down to the wire... it's just a question of taste. I don't like RMT because they ruin the game based on my own tastes. But in the end I'm indifferent."

If you're willing to buy from them, you're indifferent. It's just the truth, and really.. it's a hell of a lot more logical. There's nothing really immoral about Real Money Trading in the end, which is why it doesn't particulary bother me.

Just don't play both sides. Don't tell me you have moral objections to the slaughterhouse and then go eat meat. That's all. It's all I ask. Come join me, because having come to the realization that I endorse child labor is depressing and misery loves company.
 
alanon said:
The difference is, plenty of REAL players mule/bazaar the dinky stuff. An automnstone though? Has any real player intentionally bazaar'd/sold something like that? I think you guys are foolin yourself a little bit.....
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did you read any of the last 700 posts?
 
alanon said:
The difference is, plenty of REAL players mule/bazaar the dinky stuff. An automnstone though? Has any real player intentionally bazaar'd/sold something like that? I think you guys are foolin yourself a little bit.....
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You apparently missed the several times where I have said that I know someone who sold a stone and blazeoffury's posts where he knows someone trying to sell one now.
 
You are right, you nailed me. I did not read all 77+ pages. Are you guys seriously naive enough to think that most automnstones do not come from RMT? Either you are or you aren't. If you are that naive, God help you. If you aren't, then why even bother defending yourself? You know the dissenting opinion on it and must of reconciled yourself to it ahead of time. End of thread, let it die.
 
decidence said:
Why did you quote me Firestreak?
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It supported my point well. You came to the same logical conclusion as me for the same basic reasons, that worrying about things like that are pointless because if you're not vehement about it. I just went ahead and drew the views out to their final conclusion.
 
alanon said:
You are right, you nailed me. I did not read all 77+ pages. Are you guys seriously naive enough to think that most automnstones do not come from RMT? Either you are or you aren't. If you are that naive, God help you. If you aren't, then why even bother defending yourself? You know the dissenting opinion on it and must of reconciled yourself to it ahead of time. End of thread, let it die.
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No one said otherwise, of course RMT are the main ones who try to sell autumn stones. Saying that ONLY RMT sell the stones is just ignorance, which is what we were saying.
 
Firestreak said:
If you're willing to buy from them, you're indifferent. It's just the truth, and really.. it's a hell of a lot more logical. There's nothing really immoral about Real Money Trading in the end, which is why it doesn't particulary bother me.

Just don't play both sides. Don't tell me you have moral objections to the slaughterhouse and then go eat meat. That's all. It's all I ask. Come join me, because having come to the realization that I endorse child labor is depressing and misery loves company.
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Or simply don't have any beliefs. Then you can't get called out, and you can't be held accountable for your actions. There is a difference between actively encouraging and benefiting from an action, and being unable to avoid the implications of an action.

For the record:
I am against RMT
I am against using hacking as a tactic
I am against claimbotting

If I'm to avoid these activities completely, then I can't use the AH. I can't party. I can't do anything within the game that I cannot do 100% solo. Basically I can't play this game.

What I can do is not knowingly work with people that bot or hack, and not knowingly aid RMT. I've bought maybe 200 items from AH and bazaars this year alone. I'm certain that some of these items were obtained by RMT or were obtained illegally. I'm not naive enough to believe that If this makes me a hypocrite, then so be it, but because I have no way to play and 100% aviod these activities DOES NOT MEAN THAT I WILL ACTIVELY AID THEM. I do have beliefs, and they are important to me, and I won't simply not care so this forum will think better of me. They extend much further than this game, and they are a part of me.

Nasya said:
The fact is we know that at least 5~6 of the 8-10 stones we purchased were from legit players. the other 3~5... maybe not, but none of the mules we purchased from were obvious bazaars for RMT (ie. they didn't have Cassie's earring/Strider Boots/any other obvious RMT items in them, nor did they have the engrish comments RMT bazaars so often have).

I realize that most of you feel no legit LS in their right mind would sell an ulli stone, but we know this is not the case based on the majority of our autumn stone transactions. Yes, chances are one or more of the stones came from RMT, we aren't so dumb not to realize that is a risk... but the majority have not been... and we try to take measures to decrease the likelihood that lvl 1 bazaar purchases where we do not get to talk with the seller are RMT as well (or at least I do when I'm on). As for names... These stones have not all been purchased recently. its been a rather spread out habbit. Maybe someone could name off the last 1-2, but beyond that I doubt anyone remembers b/c frankly we didn't anticipate we would be asked to justify our actions to QCDN, and its been too long to remember most of the names casually.

I know this point has been beat over and over again, but when the LS discussed stone purchasing as an option we discussed the situation in sky and decided it was worth the risk. We are not ok with buying from RMT, many of us do not like that it is a risk... That said, we feel we can reasonably minimize that risk... and so we are willing to take it from time to time. This is not something we are proud of... but frankly we wouldn't be proud to kill ulli either. Sky is simply too old hat for us for it to be a source of pride, challenge, or anything else. Even the speed kill kirins are simply a way to insure we spend no more time up there than we must to fill in a few gear gaps for new jobs/new members.
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This is Kaizen's position on the Stones that have been bought. It was discussed at length in Shell before being implemented and I can live with it based on the beliefs I listed earlier. We don't buy from known or suspected RMT. There's even one in Battalia atm that's well under the price we're able to pay, but it's clearly a RMT mule, and we won't be buying it (Not as a result of this thread, but because it's not a practice the shell as a whole will accept).

The logic that my being against hacking makes accepting these conditions wrong, but that if I accepted and participated in hacking, then accepting these conditions would be ok completely escapes me.

But then again, I've said before that I don't really understand Americans...
 
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