Stop buying Ulli stones, you *#%*tards

[Firestreak]

I'll make a response to that but I'm going to mold the question based on your answer to this:

If you were pretty sure a bazaar was a gilseller and decided anyway to buy a stone, would you agree then that you by deciding that you don't mind buying from a RMT bazaar then you are in fact at best indifferent to the industry and towards the methods they use?

Edit in here: Just a yes or no answer will do. You're a fan of black and white so it shouldn't be so hard.

 

[Sirelrohir]

He's a weak poster and argues over the same things after they've been proved aka a noob and cheater/flee hacker.

Comment from someone that rated me down. Not upset about it. Just wanted to point out to the person that whats weaker is not owning up to something you believe. The least you could have done was say who you were so I know if it is someone that actually has first hand experience playing with me. You know, to quantify your noob statement.

As for the cheater/flee hacker comment, well, that gives me an idea; its a handful of people that believe that. No biggie there.

As for the topic at hand. Yeah, its pretty much done. Some people are going to continue to play dumb. Theres nothing more that can be said to these people.

 

[Courtney]

I'll make a response to that but I'm going to mold the question based on your answer to this:

If you were pretty sure a bazaar was a gilseller and decided anyway to buy a stone, would you agree then that you by deciding that you don't mind buying from a RMT bazaar then you are in fact at best indifferent to the industry and towards the methods they use?

Knowing in advance that you're buying an item (for full price) from RMT would show some acceptance of RMT, yes. As to the methods they use, I've CC'd Krebs crew for hundreds of hours and never seen them hack, as well as having seen other RMT warp all over the place. So being RMT does not necessarily mean being guilty of hacking to me...

 

[Raesvelg]

Knowing in advance that you're buying an item (for full price) from RMT would show some acceptance of RMT, yes. As to the methods they use, I've CC'd Krebs crew for hundreds of hours and never seen them hack, as well as having seen other RMT warp all over the place. So being RMT does not necessarily mean being guilty of hacking to me...

Some hacks are subtler than others, of course, and we can't even prove or disprove botting accusations amongst our own community, much less that of the RMT. Saying "Well, I've never seen them cheat" is rather naive, we know that as a general rule they'll use whatever methods they feel they can get away with to increase their gil/hr ratio, and that the unsuccessful teams get replaced by ones that can do the job better.

On a debate note, the "RMT are people too" angle never works out, and I'd ditch that one fast if I were you.

My position on the matter is inherently selfish. I don't like camping Ulli, and my shell is unwilling to encourage RMT to camp him by buying their stones, so I'm left in the position of dealing with RMT CC at Ulli, something I really don't enjoy. I don't especially care that the RMT are getting gil, as I mentioned earlier, if they don't get it here they'll get it elsewhere: They will get it. I just care that this particular method impacts me directly, and the fact that it eases your personal "suffering" is largely irrelevant to me.

My position has the fringe benefit of being better for the server as a whole, of course, so I definitely include that angle in my argument.

I'm perfectly willing to accept your word that you don't go out and look for RMT'd stones and snatch them up at the lowest possible price. But we all know that the newer RMT have, for the most part, gotten smarter with their naming schemes if not their gear selections (Adaman Sabatons, wtf), and it's not simply a matter of avoiding <Random string of consonants>'s bazaar anymore. Names like "Undaunted" and "UnflinchingJaw" are pretty much par for the course amongst the new Galkas (what can I say, I tend to pay more attention to them... >.>) and not at all dissimilar from what you'd expect from the average NA or JP player. Hell, my name probably looks more like a RMT account than half of the ones out there today. God forbid you ever saw my mule with an Autumnstone, you'd probably skip right past on general principle. (Tarutaru name of Vedhrfolnir, yet more obscure Norse mythology from me) So chances approach near certainty that at least some of the stones you've bought in /anon Bazaar were from RMT. Probably most, though I've no wish to get into another argument over percentages, particularly with people who think that what happened at Ulli 18 months ago has relevance today.

Either way, I've said my bit repeatedly on this topic, so I'm pretty much done with it. I strongly doubt that anyone is going to have their minds changed on this one, for a variety of reasons, and for the most part it's not worth my effort to continue. Which isn't to say that I won't, depends on whether or not anything to come catches my interest. :biggrin:

 

[Firestreak]

Ok so to paraphrase: You will agree that if you know that you're buying off RMT, then you're becoming accepting of RMT through the action of buying from them.

Here we have the ultimate grey area in where anything without definite proof becomes subject to debate. I can show you pictures of GMs saying your LS members are MPKers and you can claim that the GM was just speaking his own language incorrectly - or people can see their own members claim 30% of their NMs and claim they aren't botters. I could press this but that feels like a cop out to me. It's a good measure to tell others you think they're being dishonest by feigning innocence, but it doesn't prove it - and it doesn't really stick to me. Everyone automatically already believes the worst about their rivals... so everyone already assumes their rivals cheat, and everyone in their linkshell knows it and doesn't care as long as they can get rewarded as a result. So pressing this grey area onto which we've entered is not the case i'll make.

Rather where the line would be if there was one.

Anything that you buy in the auction house, you don't pick the selling. Therefore you aren't supporting the gilseller, because you aren't picking the seller. Rather the seller is cutting into the auction line and forcing themself into the transaction against your will, whether you care if they're a RMT or not.

When you're out there surfing Bazaars... you should be mindful of the items that are well known to be gilseller items. When I see a pair of strider boots on a suspicious looking character, I know it's a good chance that they're a gilseller. If I took the moral stance that gilselling is wrong... then I'd avoid buying from that bazaar until I actually talked with the guy selling.

There are GILSELLER dominated items we're talking about. If you want to take the stance you are against gilselling... any gilselling dominated item is automatically suspicious. You should not buy from any bazaars that you aren't sure are legit until you talk with the bazaar owner and they can reassure you.

That's perfectly reasonable to expect from someone who claims to be against gilselling. Not saying you need to check every item but merely the items you know are activately hunted by gilsellers. Just like if you're really against child slave labor then you should find out where your shirts come from.

If you're waiting for a smoking gun then you'll probably never get it. Because even when it's waved in your face you'll simply find a way to refute it somehow and continue on your way.

 

[Corvinus]

Might as well just end this here, we all know who did what by now. All I can said is "Bullshit along is easy, stand up for the right things is hard." If RMTs is right things then I got nothing to said.

Here is my story, not long ago a good friend of mine bring me an autumn stone asked me and my LS to help him kill byakko for haidate, he willing to donates everything to my LS but the problem is the stone wasn't camped but from one of those bazaar in battalia down. Isn't it a good deal? like 15 mins fight and all those profit and a free kirin right there. I even owned him a big favor, I need to return it sometime. The majority of my LS refused to help and part of me want to help other just cant go again the right thing. It end up I didnt help and refused a nice offered. After that it did changed the friendship a bit. Most of the thing in game you just can't buy with gil, even if you buy it and go again the right things; you equip it with shame walk around in the game and people laugh at your face.

Want the changes for better, take action. One, two, three person sent all those GM call are pointless, want to get rid of RMTs come up with a list for specific area such as sky then post it on here, then everyone confirm the names and spams the list to POL site. Let see if SE will do something about it, they got no evidences those guys are RMTs but if so many people said it something will happens.

For the record I killed them fuckers so many times, but it's just pointless. We need to get rid of them for good or at least reduces the number in server down. Here is what I did other day to some RMTs

 

[Zalbag]

Let's recap this thread.

Shells such as kaizen are called out for purchasing autumn stones.

Kaizen admits to buying stones and stats we try to avoid rmt bazaars and will not purchase from people who we know are rmt.

Majority of the public feels that any stone sold must be rmt since most stones out there are being claimed by rmt.(please not our stones were not all bought in 2-3 days, they were bought over 2-3 months.)

Firestreak keeps posting on morality and stats that AH and Bazaars cannot be compared do to the fact you have no control over who you buy from. (Next time don't buy from the AH go look for that same item in a bazaar so you can be sure it's not an rmt obtained item.)

Conclusion: The fact that kaizen tries to avoid buying from rmt means nothing, we are already guilty to the general population no matter what we say.

Result: Kaizen stops caring who we purchase from and just goes for what’s cheapest. Generally speaking rmt sell for 1-2 mil less then most reliable sources so we can save a fair bit of gil thus being able to purchase more stones and further increase rmt's desire to keep a strangle hold at ulli.

Does that make you all happy? (Please note we don't have any plans to start buying out all the cheap stones that are obviously rmt.)

To Firestreak. I have nothing against you; I’ve partied with you on a few occasions and thought you were a good guy. I bringing you up in this post am not aimed as a personal attack, I just don't understand your need to continually post the same thing simply rewritten to try and express what you feel no one understands. We understand your views on hypocrisy and morality just fine.

What I don't understand is your need to have everyone come forward and say I am immoral. I am a hypocrite. You may find many of these things immoral and hypocritical, but that is your opinion your welcome to it. Purchasing from lv1 bazaars we have no way of knowing who we supported. Yes it very well could've been a rmt. But until we do knowingly purchase from that rmt your claims do not have a leg to stand on.

If everyone buying from the AH gets to hide behind the ignorance is bliss statement then why cant we? I'll say it again, every AH item is allowed to be sold through bazaars. Yes it requires more work but since not supporting rmt is so imporant to you all then isn't it worth the extra time?

Oh and when you buy these items from the bazaar I'd like you to post the name of the bazaar in which you purchase it from, I'd like to investigate the person to make sure you didn't buy from rmt. That way you'd all beable to sleep at night.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Courtney]

Ok so to paraphrase: You will agree that if you know that you're buying off RMT, then you're becoming accepting of RMT through the action of buying from them.

Here we have the ultimate grey area in where anything without definite proof becomes subject to debate. I can show you pictures of GMs saying your LS members are MPKers and you can claim that the GM was just speaking his own language incorrectly - or people can see their own members claim 30% of their NMs and claim they aren't botters. I could press this but that feels like a cop out to me. It's a good measure to tell others you think they're being dishonest by feigning innocence, but it doesn't prove it - and it doesn't really stick to me. Everyone automatically already believes the worst about their rivals... so everyone already assumes their rivals cheat, and everyone in their linkshell knows it and doesn't care as long as they can get rewarded as a result. So pressing this grey area onto which we've entered is not the case i'll make.

Only you don't have any proof of our LS intentionally buying from Gilsellers, any more than you have pictures of a GM saying our LS members are MPKers.
In fact you haven't come up with any evidence on our linkshell members.

You have however lied about having evidence of Almaut fleehacking.
You have also lied about having evidence of Jolin MPKing.

I never believed that most of our opponents hack or bot. Most of the times I've been at camps that have CCers (and most of them have been Fafnir, where I've been camping for 18 months or so) I've never seen any significant evidence of botting. In general, the claims up there have been in proportion with the number of people present, with no one shell or person being particularly dominant, certainly since the update that added the claim delay before spawning (before that update, we really never claimed, but whether that was because of bots, or because of latency it's impossible to tell). Myself, I have a computer that doesn't handle the lag very well, but I've still cast early, cast late, and I still feel that I have as good a chance as anyone else to claim.

I didn't believe Peregrine's claims against your shell. The sheer number of claims kept adding up though. Farys had the guts to post that video and then you members came clean and admitted what had been going on. THEN I believed.

Apparently it is easier to believe the worst of your opponents, though. If you can convince yourself that everyone else is doing it, then you can't be blamed for accepting it yourself, right?

Anything that you buy in the auction house, you don't pick the selling. Therefore you aren't supporting the gilseller, because you aren't picking the seller. Rather the seller is cutting into the auction line and forcing themself into the transaction against your will, whether you care if they're a RMT or not.

When you're out there surfing Bazaars... you should be mindful of the items that are well known to be gilseller items. When I see a pair of strider boots on a suspicious looking character, I know it's a good chance that they're a gilseller. If I took the moral stance that gilselling is wrong... then I'd avoid buying from that bazaar until I actually talked with the guy selling.

There are GILSELLER dominated items we're talking about. If you want to take the stance you are against gilselling... any gilselling dominated item is automatically suspicious. You should not buy from any bazaars that you aren't sure are legit until you talk with the bazaar owner and they can reassure you.

That's perfectly reasonable to expect from someone who claims to be against gilselling. Not saying you need to check every item but merely the items you know are activately hunted by gilsellers. Just like if you're really against child slave labor then you should find out where your shirts come from.

Perfectly reasonable, and that's what we do. I don't need to re quote Nasya's speech... the last time I quoted it is only a page or so back. It's not some empty words to try to deflect attention away from the shell, it's the shell policy on how we do things as a group, and it reflects how the shell feels. A good example of an RMT mule is Aildreda, who's almost certainly still in Battalia as we speak with a very cheap Autumnstone. We don't buy from bazaars like these, because WE as a shell aren't comfortable with helping RMT in any way.

Nasya and Almaut are amongst the most honourable people I know, in game or out. They're the reason a lot of us still play endgame. I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone in the shell is perfect. The leaders have strong policies about MPK, botting, hacking etc though, and it's been two years now since there's been an incident. Some people believe that you have to compormise your principles to play end game. So far on this Server you don't have to.

And I'm still happy to argue with anyone who says you have to hack or bot to get ahead....

 

[Uzor]

Let's recap this thread.

Shells such as kaizen are called out for purchasing autumn stones.

Kaizen admits to buying stones and stats we try to avoid rmt bazaars and will not purchase from people who we know are rmt.

Majority of the public feels that any stone sold must be rmt since most stones out there are being claimed by rmt.(please not our stones were not all bought in 2-3 days, they were bought over 2-3 months.)

Firestreak keeps posting on morality and stats that AH and Bazaars cannot be compared do to the fact you have no control over who you buy from. (Next time don't buy from the AH go look for that same item in a bazaar so you can be sure it's not an rmt obtained item.)

Conclusion: The fact that kaizen tries to avoid buying from rmt means nothing, we are already guilty to the general population no matter what we say.

Result: Kaizen stops caring who we purchase from and just goes for what’s cheapest. Generally speaking rmt sell for 1-2 mil less then most reliable sources so we can save a fair bit of gil thus being able to purchase more stones and further increase rmt's desire to keep a strangle hold at ulli.

Does that make you all happy? (Please note we don't have any plans to start buying out all the cheap stones that are obviously rmt.)

To Firestreak. I have nothing against you; I’ve partied with you on a few occasions and thought you were a good guy. I bringing you up in this post am not aimed as a personal attack, I just don't understand your need to continually post the same thing simply rewritten to try and express what you feel no one understands. We understand your views on hypocrisy and morality just fine.

What I don't understand is your need to have everyone come forward and say I am immoral. I am a hypocrite. You may find many of these things immoral and hypocritical, but that is your opinion your welcome to it. Purchasing from lv1 bazaars we have no way of knowing who we supported. Yes it very well could've been a rmt. But until we do knowingly purchase from that rmt your claims do not have a leg to stand on.

If everyone buying from the AH gets to hide behind the ignorance is bliss statement then why cant we? I'll say it again, every AH item is allowed to be sold through bazaars. Yes it requires more work but since not supporting rmt is so imporant to you all then isn't it worth the extra time?

Oh and when you buy these items from the bazaar I'd like you to post the name of the bazaar in which you purchase it from, I'd like to investigate the person to make sure you didn't buy from rmt. That way you'd all beable to sleep at night.

Sorry for the long post.

Unless this is a joke, then you're contradicting yourself quite strongly.

Only you don't have any proof of our LS intentionally buying from Gilsellers, any more than you have pictures of a GM saying our LS members are MPKers.
In fact you haven't come up with any evidence on our linkshell members.

You have however lied about having evidence of Almaut fleehacking.
You have also lied about having evidence of Jolin MPKing.

I never believed that most of our opponents hack or bot. Most of the times I've been at camps that have CCers (and most of them have been Fafnir, where I've been camping for 18 months or so) I've never seen any significant evidence of botting. In general, the claims up there have been in proportion with the number of people present, with no one shell or person being particularly dominant, certainly since the update that added the claim delay before spawning (before that update, we really never claimed, but whether that was because of bots, or because of latency it's impossible to tell). Myself, I have a computer that doesn't handle the lag very well, but I've still cast early, cast late, and I still feel that I have as good a chance as anyone else to claim.

I didn't believe Peregrine's claims against your shell. The sheer number of claims kept adding up though. Farys had the guts to post that video and then you members came clean and admitted what had been going on. THEN I believed.

Apparently it is easier to believe the worst of your opponents, though. If you can convince yourself that everyone else is doing it, then you can't be blamed for accepting it yourself, right?

I have a lot of evidence against most end-game LS's abotu a lot of dirty things. I have evidence that Kaizen have lied, to which they try to cover up. I have a lot of evidence agaisnt a lot of things for the past 2 or 3 years. I've never bothered to mention it though, because of personal and unpersonal reasons. One being that I don't have anything against other end-game shells, the other that Prophecy have asked me to not post them because he's not a fan of drama. I'm sure Firestreak have quite a lot of evidence too that he just haven't bothered posting or mentioning because he personally just don't care. Neither me nor Firestreak care. We don't care how other people chose to play their game. Its their money.

 

[delsus]

I have a lot of evidence against most end-game LS's abotu a lot of dirty things. I have evidence that Kaizen have lied, to which they try to cover up. I have a lot of evidence agaisnt a lot of things for the past 2 or 3 years. I've never bothered to mention it though, because of personal and unpersonal reasons. One being that I don't have anything against other end-game shells, the other that Prophecy have asked me to not post them because he's not a fan of drama. I'm sure Firestreak have quite a lot of evidence too that he just haven't bothered posting or mentioning because he personally just don't care. Neither me nor Firestreak care. We don't care how other people chose to play their game. Its their money.

Dam right.
Try find a non-cheating NA Ls, probally be done.

 

[Uzor]

well, perhaps I should have said had. Most screenshot evidence have been lost when my hard drive got fried. But I still remember most of them well. Doesn't change the fact that Firestreak might have some still. I still remember them, though.

 

[pauk]

back on topic; if i read your earlier post correctly, your saying its ok for linkshells to buy stones from rmt (cheaters)?

So are you saying it's ok to gain items with RMT? How was that RMT'd
Mattimer account in limbus last night with your linkshell?

 

[Uzor]

So are you saying it's ok to gain items with RMT? How was that RMT'd
Mattimer account in limbus last night with your linkshell?

Admit it. You want to know who it is.

 

[pauk]

Admit it. You want to know who it is.

I know who it is and it's irrelevant to my question.

 

[Uzor]

I know who it is and it's irrelevant to my question.

If you know who it is its an unceccesary(sp) and irrelevant question.

 

[hellstorm]

The Bottom line is Autumnstones are non saleable on the AH. So comparing it to anything on the AH is stupid. When you buy from the bazaar you can see EXACTLY who you are buying from. Isn't it your obligation considering it is a HEAVYLY camped RMT mob to find out whose level 1 mule is out there in Bastilla Downs? How hard is it to send a /tell? On the AH you can only see who you bought from only after the sale in which case it is too late. So because RMT use the AH we don't use that either? Obviously not, but non saleable items at least we CAN see who we buy from and we CAN take 5 mins to say in /linkshell, "Hey, anyone ever heard of Peterli or Leave? They have autumnstones out here for sale."

There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying autumnstones. But at least know who your buying from or just don't buy them. RMT hurt us all.

to take that 1 step further there big difference from 30k it and a 8mil item

 

[hellstorm]

So does buying speed belts, Kraken clubs, Damascene clothes, Ochidu's Kote, Fuma Kayhan, Hakutaku eyes, Behemoth hides, shihei, and food. Does that mean people aren't going to keep buying them because there is a chance they may buy something from a gil seller? Hell no it doesn't. People saying buying from the AH is 100% different then buying from a Level 1 mule. It's not, quit being so naive.

When you bid for something on the AH, you take a gamble on wether you buy something from a Legit player or a Gil seller. When you buy from a bazaar you are taking a gamble on wether you buy something from a Legit player or a Gil seller.

For once I agree with decidence and skaw, people are whining and complaining because they aren't the ones buying the stone that they want ever so badly but can't come up with the funds to buy themselves.

I'm sick of everyone saying "Teh AH is completely different from teh bazaarorz!!" Noone has gave a single supporting arguement to stand for that so until you can do so, do yourself a favor and shut up before you make yourself out to be a fool.

you have not been reading then, people have gave about 20 supporting arguments why buying from bazarr is different from AH

edit and yes speed belt and K club would apply

 

[Lockstar]

Mattimer sold his account? when?

 

[Zalbag]

Conclusion: The fact that kaizen tries to avoid buying from rmt means nothing, we are already guilty to the general population no matter what we say.

Result: Kaizen stops caring who we purchase from and just goes for what’s cheapest. Generally speaking rmt sell for 1-2 mil less then most reliable sources so we can save a fair bit of gil thus being able to purchase more stones and further increase rmt's desire to keep a strangle hold at ulli.

Does that make you all happy? (Please note we don't have any plans to start buying out all the cheap stones that are obviously rmt.)

Unless this is a joke, then you're contradicting yourself quite strongly.

I was simply trying to get my point across that we don't seek out rmt and we try to avoid buying from them. I contradicted myself on purpose. The result was how we might as well do things seeing as we've already been pegged as guilty; the comments in brackets are how we will continue to do things. I thought it was pretty straight forward.

 

[Firestreak]

Only you don't have any proof of our LS intentionally buying from Gilsellers, any more than you have pictures of a GM saying our LS members are MPKers.
In fact you haven't come up with any evidence on our linkshell members.

You have however lied about having evidence of Almaut fleehacking.
You have also lied about having evidence of Jolin MPKing.

I never believed that most of our opponents hack or bot. Most of the times I've been at camps that have CCers (and most of them have been Fafnir, where I've been camping for 18 months or so) I've never seen any significant evidence of botting. In general, the claims up there have been in proportion with the number of people present, with no one shell or person being particularly dominant, certainly since the update that added the claim delay before spawning (before that update, we really never claimed, but whether that was because of bots, or because of latency it's impossible to tell). Myself, I have a computer that doesn't handle the lag very well, but I've still cast early, cast late, and I still feel that I have as good a chance as anyone else to claim.

I didn't believe Peregrine's claims against your shell. The sheer number of claims kept adding up though. Farys had the guts to post that video and then you members came clean and admitted what had been going on. THEN I believed.

Apparently it is easier to believe the worst of your opponents, though. If you can convince yourself that everyone else is doing it, then you can't be blamed for accepting it yourself, right?



Perfectly reasonable, and that's what we do. I don't need to re quote Nasya's speech... the last time I quoted it is only a page or so back. It's not some empty words to try to deflect attention away from the shell, it's the shell policy on how we do things as a group, and it reflects how the shell feels. A good example of an RMT mule is Aildreda, who's almost certainly still in Battalia as we speak with a very cheap Autumnstone. We don't buy from bazaars like these, because WE as a shell aren't comfortable with helping RMT in any way.

Nasya and Almaut are amongst the most honourable people I know, in game or out. They're the reason a lot of us still play endgame. I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone in the shell is perfect. The leaders have strong policies about MPK, botting, hacking etc though, and it's been two years now since there's been an incident. Some people believe that you have to compormise your principles to play end game. So far on this Server you don't have to.

And I'm still happy to argue with anyone who says you have to hack or bot to get ahead....

Manipulation of words.

A) I admitted a weak argument because you can just a deny it and it's simply he she/she said.

B) There's a difference between lying and not being able to prove/being wrong. Hence I've never publically called anyone a flee hacker or a gil buyer and privately only very rarely. If I'm talking privately it's my opinion only which doesn't have proof. To which I was talking to Neophytal who was saying in the same private conversation that HNM Party bots, which I don't seem to recall him every giving proof towards.

C) When I say that I have evidence, I have evidence. Was Arcien, not Jolin though and I've already posted it.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/Rednibia2/fafnirbs1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/Rednibia2/fafnirbs2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/Rednibia2/fafnirbs3.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/Rednibia2/fafnirbs4.jpg

Which it isn't my point that he's obviously guilty. Certainly seems that way to me, but my point is that the same group of people who declare that because of an MSN conversation with a person nicknamed Chrono we can conclude that Chronicles is a botter - will turn around and say those screenshots somehow don't prove anything.

And it isn't my point that I'm pissed off that in the process I got MPKed as well, cause I'm over that. The point is only that it's something declared 'wrong.'

Sorry if you as well misinterprete posting these as another attack. Rather, it's you calling me a liar and me showing that I'm not.

Let's recap this thread.

Shells such as kaizen are called out for purchasing autumn stones.

Kaizen admits to buying stones and stats we try to avoid rmt bazaars and will not purchase from people who we know are rmt.

Majority of the public feels that any stone sold must be rmt since most stones out there are being claimed by rmt.(please not our stones were not all bought in 2-3 days, they were bought over 2-3 months.)

Firestreak keeps posting on morality and stats that AH and Bazaars cannot be compared do to the fact you have no control over who you buy from. (Next time don't buy from the AH go look for that same item in a bazaar so you can be sure it's not an rmt obtained item.)

Conclusion: The fact that kaizen tries to avoid buying from rmt means nothing, we are already guilty to the general population no matter what we say.

Result: Kaizen stops caring who we purchase from and just goes for what’s cheapest. Generally speaking rmt sell for 1-2 mil less then most reliable sources so we can save a fair bit of gil thus being able to purchase more stones and further increase rmt's desire to keep a strangle hold at ulli.

Does that make you all happy? (Please note we don't have any plans to start buying out all the cheap stones that are obviously rmt.)

To Firestreak. I have nothing against you; I’ve partied with you on a few occasions and thought you were a good guy. I bringing you up in this post am not aimed as a personal attack, I just don't understand your need to continually post the same thing simply rewritten to try and express what you feel no one understands. We understand your views on hypocrisy and morality just fine.

What I don't understand is your need to have everyone come forward and say I am immoral. I am a hypocrite. You may find many of these things immoral and hypocritical, but that is your opinion your welcome to it. Purchasing from lv1 bazaars we have no way of knowing who we supported. Yes it very well could've been a rmt. But until we do knowingly purchase from that rmt your claims do not have a leg to stand on.

If everyone buying from the AH gets to hide behind the ignorance is bliss statement then why cant we? I'll say it again, every AH item is allowed to be sold through bazaars. Yes it requires more work but since not supporting rmt is so imporant to you all then isn't it worth the extra time?

Oh and when you buy these items from the bazaar I'd like you to post the name of the bazaar in which you purchase it from, I'd like to investigate the person to make sure you didn't buy from rmt. That way you'd all beable to sleep at night.

Sorry for the long post.

I've already said that I'd have no problem buying from a RMT bazaar and that I have no issues against RMT in general. The point is that if express views against RMT, you can take a few minimum steps to insure you don't actually support them. I never said you have to cover yourself in duct tape and go off in the woods. There are just things you can do like make sure that rank 2 level 70 guy isn't a RMT before inviting him to your party and talk with a questionable guy before buying a pair of strider boots from his bazaar.

When I came to the conclusion I wasn't willing to go through the hassle of avoiding making dealings with the RMT, I realized that in the end I didn't really give a shit about gilselling. I mean... I didn't like it on a level of taste. It wasn't a path I wanted to go down, but I didn't care if others did. If I cared, I'd avoid dealing with them.

When I realized I wasn't willing to leave my linkshell cause people wanted to break the ToS, i came to the conclusion I didn't care about that either. Courtney took it upon herself to declare that meant I was for it, that I liked it, that my entire decision making process was selfish. Which is why as just a random Kaizen member, Zalbag, you don't have to feel like i'm trying to prosecute you or your shell in general. In my mind I'm just continuing an argument you never tried to start.