Summoner duties

[Rufus_Shinra]

Oh, and if your a melee RDM, you do NOT fight locked on.

 

[K. Ishitar]

Its really not that hard. Your already targeted onto the mob for debuffs and MBs, so that isnt a problem. The only thing you have to learn is to whip out your spells and target your party members using the F1-F6 keys.

Granted, you will probably hit the wrong F key sometimes. (Your party will not be happy when you Haste the WHM....) But everyone makes mistakes.

actually there are times when i haste myself to decrease the cooldown timers.

I use <bt> so i don't have to target the mob for debuffs or mbs.

Actually i would like to start meleeing again my dagger is 99 and my sword is 138 and at 57 that is no where near cap =/

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

actually there are times when i haste myself to decrease the cooldown timers.

I use <bt> so i don't have to target the mob for debuffs or mbs.

Actually i would like to start meleeing again my dagger is 99 and my sword is 138 and at 57 that is no where near cap =/

Well get slicing! If your macros work that well, let them do the work for you. A meleeing RDM is fun as hell.

 

[DarkMagnus]

two tumbs down to a smn/nin in exp pts.

 

[Zethren]

two tumbs down to a smn/nin in exp pts.

lol dude don't even waste your time with this guy:nono:

 

[Reishu]

While what Rufus said about SMN DD'ing with the help of WS'es is new to me, I won't think it's bad until I've tried it myself. Perhaps it's for soloing/duoing? I can see that. As far as exp goes, someone else was doing the healing, so what's the problem?

Who invited him to exp most likely knew the benefits/drawbacks of a SMN/NIN in exp. That's their choice. You have your choice, stick to cookie cutter jobs/subs if you want. Rufus' priority was having fun, while your priority is to rush exp.

I don't see anything wrong with his playstyle. On the other hand, I won't ever expect to see a SMN/NIN in a 10k/hr+ cannon.

Don't bash people who want to have fun please. They make this place a better place.

 

[Sandria]

Babies cry every time a post like this is made, and god goes off and kills a kitten as well. Migh as well be the one to point out the reasons why a summoner should not melee as though it needs to be said.

1.) Summoner has one of the worst, if not the worst, DEF ratings compared to other jobs. If the mob, which most exp mobs do, has an AOE it places the summoner in the position to be a mp sink.

2.) Summoners have one of the worst melee ratings of all other jobs. Your white mage might as well be melee DD while you heal them. Hell, at least they get STR on their AF1 where as you're not finding that on a SMN.

3.) You are building TP onto the mob. Trust me when I say I have no problems telling a red mage to go stand back with the mages-- I sure as hell won't think twice about telling a summoner to do it also.

I don't care if a red mage melees in the dunes. You get about the same gear choices as any other DD job at that level even despite the fact that you would be much better off casting. And to cast you must have.. you guessed it.. M P.. and if you have oppertunity to melee... you obviously would have ample oppertunity to.. you guessed it.. rest your MP.

Truth be told-- lower levels pre-refresh a summoner has more main healer potential than a white mage. Larger MP pool, auto-refresh, and the same gear choices as a white mage. Top that in the fact that your options for healing are approximately the same-- as I stand firm in the fact that a white mage should not use their highest cure in most cases unless end of battle.

At about upper 50s lower 60s I threw in the towel with main healing as a Summoner. I highly consider that as me being a "bandwagon" summoner as the minute I hit level 30 white mage I had already set my mind on leveling summoner. The term bandwagon is honestly over used. You level any job and you are obviously on a bandwagon... regardless if you have interest in it.

Why I changed the way I played? Chalk it up as mechanics of the game, or simply bad parties as it could really be either or. Typical scenerios would occure that would either I would end up dead or another party member.

Sandria starts casting Fenrir.
Tank was defeated by monster.
Sandria was defeated by monster.

And mind you, the tank could have been at full health at the time I would go to summon and for whatever reason end up dead. The other times I would end up dead because I did not have enough - enmity even with - enmity food, crow gear, etc to support cure III spam on a tank. The exp was usually below par to my expectations and this could also be due to the fact that typically your more "ideal" parties have already scooped up the white mage that was seeking in your level range and you're left in the fat kid party.

I had a few good parties, but they were not as frequent enough for me.

Most summoners who do not wish to main heal do not go into an exp party to see just how useless they can be in the party i.e. melee with a F rated dagger. No, they go and they solo for exp or exp with other summoners. I have had better exp being a DD summoner in a party than I have had being in the position of a main healer as a party. It can be done. As odd as the fact that I have known of Paladins who have had better exp in the position of a DD than they have had as a main tank-- regardless to who is the "leech" in the sittuation that remains up to only the individuals involved.

Something that I would like to add that seems to be sorely badly stated. It is not uncommon to be at 70% MP at the end of battle when a summoner is only in the position to be DD. However, the thing that is really the issue is just how much mp a summoner has at the end of chain. It costs 164 MP to do a level 70 tier BP. Add to that the casting cost, and the prep cost and you are reaching close to at least 200 MP for this. Release and rest for approximately one full MP tick and stand again and you will be ready to cast again and engage to do yet another BP. One MP tick is not going to yield 200 MP by any means so there is really no way to stay at full unless you are in fact leeching or able to pull in extra ticks via a long pull or knowing that by the time you cast engage and BP the mob will already be good and dead.

Are you in the position to cast extra cures? Yes, as much as any other job with the same sub that you have. However, you are more than likely going to run out of MP if you are trying to deal out damage and heal. Same reasons most black mages will power nuke when a white mage's MP runs low than toss out a cure because if the mob is dead it's not dealing out damage.

No two sittuations are ever the same. You need a summoner to heal, convey that to them and point out where it will benifit the party if need be. End game and all the white mages are calling out they are out of MP look to see whether or not you as the summoner can better assist by whipping out the heals that are needed to keep the tanks alive. Communication can be ideal.

I refuse openly to main heal as a summoner, but I am not in the position to tell anyone else how to play their game unless it directly effects me.

 

[Zerayla]

Read all the posts, and yeah I wasn't really asking if a SMN should main heal, I know that they really lack as "main healer" however the thing I was concerned about, was "aiding" in the healing.

The lvls I was referring to at this point, are from 40-45, just after I got refresh and so suddenly me being able to heal as well as I use to be able to, became a challenge because of the refreshes I now had to do. (Being a PLD as main, I really appreciate having a RDM that keeps the refresh up at all times)

What I wasn't understanding, was why the SMN I was with was barely curing (first party setup involved NIN tank) when aside from 1 BP per battle, brought nothing else to the party. I'm sure at later lvls the MP used is quite different, however the SMN regained their lost MP from the BP after every battle, which meant they were probably only using about 20% at the most per battle. That leaves 70% of MP to assist in the curing of the party members, and allow me as the RDM to put more of my MP into nuking, enfeebling as well as refreshing. (I didn't mind sharing the duty of curing, in fact my goal while I lvl RDM is to get as much "work" as possible so that I can really excel at challenges)

Like a lot of the people here said, I too would feel very guilty of "leeching" xp if all I did was BP, rest, repeat. It just makes sense to do whatever you can, with what you have. If you have cures at your dispense, and MP isn't an issue, then I would take advantage of that.

I was starting to get the impression that there was something I wasn't aware of about SMNs, to explain why they wouldn't cure but it just seems that I ended up with someone who unfortunately didn't mind contributing as much as they could of.

I think my question was pretty much answered, thanks for the info.

 

[Sandria]

Ah, well that narrows it down a bit Zy. I'd say the role changes with each level you achieve and each ability you gain. In that level range I would most likely ONLY invite a summoner for the sake of having them as a main healer. It would not be a question of them being a back up healer to you (the rdm), as you would be there back up. Later levels I would say the RDM has the better healer potential than the summoner. (Opinionated statement, of course.) You as the RDM would step up to cover the tank while the summoner is casting their BP. At that level you mention I believe it is a standered 1 minute per BP where as later levels you have many gears come available to lower that timer by a fairly decent amount. You find a RDM and a SMN who can work together and you will have very nice EXP.

 

[Pasquale]

Ill tell you what I tell every new starting SMN.
Cap dagger skill but dont use them until level 20ish.

Be a healer through the dunes, then screw /WHM.

Once you can use em, buy a Silence Dagger +1 and a Poison Dagger +1. Then sub ninja for dual wield and melee.

This is how I dodged having to heal up until roughly level 55. Then I switched over to PLD.

Maybe its just me, but when I am fighting a mob, in or out of a party, I usually tend to stand as far away as possible. As a tarutaru, I have 3 defense, and like 17hp. More often than not if I still get caught in an aoe, I lose a ton of health, and have to spend mp healing myself.

I would think melee-ing would just lead to a faster death, or much less mp. I see what you are doing with the Silence and Poison daggers, but we have spells for that stuff, spells that we can use from the back row, away from immediate death.

As for the OP question: What I don't understand, and this is what i'm hoping for some clarification on.... other than a BP move, what else does a SMN do?

Heal. I can't even imagine not doing anything for a minute, while the rest of the party was working its ass off to get exp. The time between BPs is a perfect time to help the party, whether its curing, poisona-ing, protectra-ing (if main heal), etc. Nobody likes to tell people how to do their job, but to just stand there doing nothing until your next BP is a waste. We certainly have the MP to heal, and honestly it makes the time go faster between BPs.

 

[Zerayla]

Ah, well that narrows it down a bit Zy. I'd say the role changes with each level you achieve and each ability you gain. In that level range I would most likely ONLY invite a summoner for the sake of having them as a main healer. It would not be a question of them being a back up healer to you (the rdm), as you would be there back up. Later levels I would say the RDM has the better healer potential than the summoner. (Opinionated statement, of course.) You as the RDM would step up to cover the tank while the summoner is casting their BP. At that level you mention I believe it is a standered 1 minute per BP where as later levels you have many gears come available to lower that timer by a fairly decent amount. You find a RDM and a SMN who can work together and you will have very nice EXP.

This definitely makes sense, and I can see that once the MP cost increases as well as the recast time for BPs, that a SMN would be having less time to cover the healing role. Guess I just had a bad experience with a SMN who didn't mind leeching the xp.

Oh and about that whole melee-ing thing, I don't think i'd try it myself if I ever lvled SMN, at least for an xp party. I don't think the dmg being done would be worth it.

and Pasquale, I like your way of thinking. I'll need to party with your SMN sometime <_<

 

[Ewok]

Ill tell you what I tell every new starting SMN.
Cap dagger skill but dont use them until level 20ish.

Be a healer through the dunes, then screw /WHM.

Once you can use em, buy a Silence Dagger +1 and a Poison Dagger +1. Then sub ninja for dual wield and melee.

This is how I dodged having to heal up until roughly level 55. Then I switched over to PLD.

I hope to god this is sarcasm.... otherwise you have just helped in creating more bad players.

 

[Ewok]

Tbh, I took SMN to 54, and to that lvl at least, the role they best serve at that lvl is heal/support. DD at that lvl blows, physical BP's are more random then WS's, and even their MB'd nukes are below that of RDM's. As I have learned with any job, if you have the spell or ability available to you, be prepared to use it. Lvng Blm I've had to help/main heal (main at lower lvls), and I've had to use -na spells on the tank due to a bad WHM. I became more of a jack of all trades then some Rdm's, lol. As far as not using your strongest cures, I've been told using 1 strong cure once in a long while generates less hate then spamming weaker ones, plus its much safer to have that strong cure for emergencies. If I was the leader of that party, I would have told the Smn to help you heal, and if they didnt, I wouldve looked for a replacement and booted the smn. Exp parties are no place for stubborn players who don't want to use their job properly because they didnt pick the job up to "main heal". The SMN should suck it up, blame SE for not giving Smn the options he/she wanted for the job, and if he/she still can't "adapt" they should lvl a different job, or hope they can solo their exp.


PS I have helped cure on BLU as well, which, with our limited time to rest, due to us being excellent melee jobs, isnt easy, but I am willing to do it for the party to get better exp.

 

[Prothall]

I don't understand why some SMNs are so against main healing. If they ever tell you they "were never meant to main heal" you can go ahead and tell them that NINs were never meant to tank.

Also, look at the trend that summoners have been taking. Look at Yuna from FFX. Then try and have them tell you that smns dont main heal.

And as for Zer's last post- summoners do NOT lack as main healer- I think they are actually better main healers than whm. But only when you have a NIN tank. Heres why: They can use BPs like earthen ward that help out NIN tank way more than a whm sitting there using regen III and having nothing else to do while NINs shadows are up. Granted this is only if you have a good ninja and a good smn.

 

[Lukas]

Zerayla's Post - Summoners generally heal. I like to think of them as lightweight healers, better suited to situations where curing is required occasionally rather than constantly (which is why you seldom see a smn fronting the main assist party in dynamis, and why sometimes whms arent required for merit/burn parties as their heavy healing abilities may be excessive).

RDM + SMN make a good combo in nin parties, and I agree with Sandria that in your example the SMN should have been main and you support. WHM + SMN is grossly inefficient from what I've experienced. What ever spells they throw out in between BPs a whm can do better (enfeebles, more potent cures, barspells, higher tier buffs) and the damage they do accumulate over time can easily be shadowed by a melee.

Truth be told what a smn does in the minute or so between bloodpacts is solely determined by their subjob, which in the vast majority of cases should be healing as it is least effected by the half-level spells and stats one gets from a sub.

As for smn/nin... Other than BLU, I am a strong advocate of mages remaining in the back lines. If I had the courtesy of leaving any and all weapon skill-ups to skill-up parties, then I can only expect the rdm/smn/blm to reciprocate... Yet this is an argument for another day. However I would point out that the add. effects from those daggers (let alone a smns horrid dagger rating) arent well known for their miraculous proc rate.

 

[Negorissimo]

I find that the SMN don't toss any cures to help the main healer at all, they sit there with a good 70% MP every single fight, only doing the 1-2 BP's per battle. Is this normal?

You can ask yourself the same question about:

BLM, RDM, BRD, or any other job /subbing WHM at the PT.
Yes, this is normal. Because that's the "new way" SE intended the SMN job to be played after the initial nerf. Your SMN wasn't main healer so try to understand his feelings at the time.
After being "chained" on the undeserved healer rol for god knows how long, he found freedom in this new PT set-up.

So don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[K. Ishitar]

So don't hate the player, hate the game.

Lol Nego, that makes me think of that "Do you know what is so special about age 36" you told Rabufa

and Pasquale is the type of smn that the party needs. I hate lving in pts I'd rather be as high as possible and get it over with it than complaining about what I don't want to do and slowing exp.

 

[Sandria]

Ewok: An occassional large cure is acceptable. Hence why I reached a point where Cure III spam was not cutting it as me being a SMN main heal. Trying to Cure III spam when an obvious Cure V would be better is, indeed, going to net you a much undesired hate level. (Its the white mages I experience who start out using their highest cure to save them time and wonder why the monster is heading into their direction that I have a hard time with.) Not to sound lazy, but its quite frankly easier/safer to bring my white mage when needing to perform the healing role end-game levels. If I need exp on summoner I'll simply go off and solo some VTs or scoop up a couple of summoners and beat some stuff down with BPs. It's enjoyable for me to play it the way that I desire, and the best part is it doesn't effect anyone else. I know that there are several summoners who are advocates of main healing. They also do it very well and it is almost natural for them to do it. I could go into large details formulas of cast timers, enmity calculations, blah blah blah this or that but in the end its going to remain a game. Have fun and perhaps even "give-in" every once in a while and let the summoner enjoy themselves.

 

[neville]

I've had some amazing SMNs, but I've also had some rather lousy ones, as was the case yesterday.

We had a RDM & SMN. RDM asked SMN if he wanted mh or backup. SMN said whichever. Which apparently translated into casting Fenrir BP every minute (not announcing it either, despite lots of spam from 2 groups fighting Colibris) and not doing -anything- else. The RDM was regularly around 100 mp and the SMN had about 700 at the end of each battle

>.<

 

[Dejavu]

Well im currently leveling smn and i have been main healing most of the time on the way...

Basically its not possible w/o a refresher and even with a refresher pld tank makes it very difficult

perfect party imo atm is nin, melee DDx2, Cor w/ good DD gear, bard, smn

I have had that setup twice and i was Bping on every timer and never had a death (or close call for that matter really cause i dont think the bard threw a cure the whole time)

Had rdm + smn (64-66 party in bibiki) with a nin tank last night and once again i was main healer sure if the nin gets caught hard u may need some help from the rdm but for 90% of the fights the rdm just sits there and refreshes, hastes and debuffs.

Its not that hard to main heal just gotta be smart about it.