Summoner makes me want to quit.

Galaika said:
Yes, no other posts have mentioned brainwashing and blamed an entire community for the 'sterotyping' of the summoner class.

Might have something to do with only a handful of the posts aside from trip's actually being on topic ... <.< but wtf do i know, apparently i'm just being a drama queen :P

The fact of the matter is that the game as it stands now is a complete contradiction to what it was when it started and what it was intended to be when SE put it out. The prevailing thoughts contained in this thread is 'you're so selfish, what about us (other people in the party)' how contradictory is that? There could be room for flexibility in play if more people did it, but the fact of the matter is everyone's set in their little molds and not interested in actually using what they'd like or would otherwise use barring ridicule such as is found in this thread and others like it.

Whatever get's me to 75 faster .... so i can be bored, right?

Regardless, as stated numerous times now, summoner is merely the tip of the iceberg in consideration to what brought the OP on. It was the straw that broke th camel's back so-to-speak and instead of having a decent conversation about it with a straightforward attempt on the part of the community to help alleviate any misunderstandings or to make positive suggestions as to how trip might find his way out of his current mindset he gets called selfish, ignorant, gets patronized, and told how to play a game he's been playing for upwards of 2 years.

Small wonder everyone outside this game hates this game... <.<
 
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Galaika said:
Dont be so melodramatic. Of course there isnt only one way to do things, but there is an undeniable BETTER way to do things.

Unconventional parties are more fun.

One that stands out in my mind was a Party I had with Mokk one time before he quit.

Mnk, Drg, Blm, Blm, Blm.

Only 5 people. We were getting roughly 4k an hour and had a blast doing it. Mokk was main tanking like a champ. If I remember correctly, it was vs. Processionaires in the tree. They were doing light and the magic burst killed it every time. They were getting enough TP to Skillchain every fight. And noone died. That was fun. We were 65-66.

So what makes it better? Maximum fun or Maximum xp? I'd personally prefer the fun even if it meant mediocre xp. Maybe that's why it took me 2 years to get a lvl 75 job.
 
I gotta toot my own horn on the bibiki parties too:

Mnk
Drg
blm
blm
rdm
whm

Goblin's didn't know what hit em, course it took me over an hour to convince everyone it could be done and that i had done so before, but everyone sure was awefully happy to be scoring that 5k/hr after they figured out what they heard through the grapevine might be entirely BS.

Edit: had bubu up there cos i'm mental >< meant bibiki
 
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Galaika said:
If you dont want to heal, and you dont want to do damage, what do you want to do between your bloodpacts? Stand around doing nothing?

I didn't say I don't want to heal. I said I don't want to be main healer.

I want it to be a support class. Me in the background doing whatever helps. Perhaps even let my avatars attack till about 15 seconds before BP is ready again. Maybe while throwing a Cure II at the members that took minor damage from AoE. Poisona here, Blindna there.

But a smn shuoldn't have the sole responsability of keeping the party alive. Any of the 3 classes that have Healing skill could do a better job at that than I could.

Maybe 2 Smns as your Main healer. But I do not take the place of a Whm in a party and that's all there is to it. I won't get erase till 64 (62? I forget), at which time I'll still only have cure 3 and a healing skill under 100. No Haste (untill garuda gets it), no Stona, nothing more than Protect II, Shell II at 75...

Smn isn't meant to be a main healer. That is the bottom line.
 
Trippyhippy said:
I didn't say I don't want to heal. I said I don't want to be main healer.

I want it to be a support class. Me in the background doing whatever helps. Perhaps even let my avatars attack till about 15 seconds before BP is ready again. Maybe while throwing a Cure II at the members that took minor damage from AoE. Poisona here, Blindna there.

But a smn shuoldn't have the sole responsability of keeping the party alive. Any of the 3 classes that have Healing skill could do a better job at that than I could.

Maybe 2 Smns as your Main healer. But I do not take the place of a Whm in a party and that's all there is to it. I won't get erase till 64 (62? I forget), at which time I'll still only have cure 3 and a healing skill under 100. No Haste (untill garuda gets it), no Stona, nothing more than Protect II, Shell II at 75...

Smn isn't meant to be a main healer. That is the bottom line.

I agree summoner should fit this role, and have tried it before...it just sadly doesn't work that well. Sure they get the buffs and such but a minute is a long time when battles are lasting under 5mins (i haven't xped in a while...so i can't really remember how long it takes to kill something). In between bloodpacts i found the summoner was just sitting there looking for something to do.

Don't get me wrong it wasn't BAD but i felt that a rdm or a brd would have been a much stronger supporter than the summoner (who we got because of no refresh, so we could swap her in should i run a bit low due to lack of refresh).

Maybe they will change it so that bloodpacts are 30 seconds or something. Not like you have to MP to go crazy with them as alot cost much more MP than the good they do. Heres to hoping they improve summoner in the patch.

On a side not if summoner get upgraded from healer to support class (or hell maybe even to the dizzying heights of DD?) then wouldn't that leave a significant lack of healers? Not that its particularly bad for me. I wouldn't mind some of the rdm desireability.
 
Trippyhippy said:
I didn't say I don't want to heal. I said I don't want to be main healer.

I want it to be a support class. Me in the background doing whatever helps. Perhaps even let my avatars attack till about 15 seconds before BP is ready again. Maybe while throwing a Cure II at the members that took minor damage from AoE. Poisona here, Blindna there.

But a smn shuoldn't have the sole responsability of keeping the party alive. Any of the 3 classes that have Healing skill could do a better job at that than I could.

Maybe 2 Smns as your Main healer. But I do not take the place of a Whm in a party and that's all there is to it. I won't get erase till 64 (62? I forget), at which time I'll still only have cure 3 and a healing skill under 100. No Haste (untill garuda gets it), no Stona, nothing more than Protect II, Shell II at 75...

Smn isn't meant to be a main healer. That is the bottom line.

With a NIN tank, a SMN can heal them all thats needed, haste can come from a RDM, or garuda if you have to, stona is not necessary. As long as you avoid PLDs like the plague, you can main heal well.

You seem to be under the impression that main healing a NIN is actually hard, and leaves no time to do SMN-related things. It's not. When 'main-healing' as a SMN, with a NIN tank its eassentially backup healing like you want, except youre not wasting a party slot with another healer.

Why not use that spot to help your party more by getting a BLM or another DD rather than having to get a WHM when you could heal a NIN just fine, AND do everything you want to as a SMN?

NIN, DD, DD, Refresher, BLM, SMN is a much better combo than
Tank, DD, DD, Refresher, SMN, WHM.

However, if you want to be a true support class like you said, then unfortunately youre out of luck, we dont have refresh, and only a once-a-minute dispel that likes to be resisted and stops us from doing other more useful things. As long as we dont have these, a party is going toi have to get another support class, and you lose out on some other part of the party.
 
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Galaika said:
With a NIN tank, a SMN can heal them all thats needed, haste can come from a RDM, or garuda if you have to, stona is not necessary. As long as you avoid PLDs like the plague, you can main heal well.

You seem to be under the impression that main healing a NIN is actually hard, and leaves no time to do SMN-related things. It's not. When 'main-healing' as a SMN, with a NIN tank its eassentially backup healing like you want, except youre not wasting a party slot with another healer.

Galaika, the first paragraph of this quote:

You're still shoe-horning someone in to fit a spot for another job, trying to be cold, hard, and efficient. I understand some people are hell bent on OMG9kperhrnoless. But that's not nearly everyone. If the party gets along with no drama and we laugh and have fun.. i'm still happy with 4k an hour. At the same time by following your tip you're forcing yourself to only be able to fit ONE kind of party. You say to avoid a job like the plague.. there should never be an instance in any MMO so heavily based on grouping where a job is avoided.. even if it's just because of your current setup. This is what leads to people sitting around with their flag up for hours on end for no real reason. (read: every poor drg because they suxx0r supposedly, I personally like to have a dragoon in party.) I'm not interested in silly amounts of experience per hour and rushing to 75 as fast as I can.

Main healing a ninja may not be hard, all the man is asking for is not to be a main healer. I can understand that.. they have half the healing cap of a rdm on the same level. Red Mages put up "Main Heal {No Thanks}" in their comments and people don't argue.. why? Refresh. When my static was looking for a new main healer, I asked for red mages or white mages. Doesn't matter to me, but they would have been main healers. I made that very clear. The first 3 responses to the topic were "Red mages don't like to main heal, so you should try to ask a summoner or something. (Which I already had in the party).

Now.. at 67(I think this is about where we were at the time.) a rdm and smn on the same level. RDM: Healing Cap:206, SMN: Healing Cap: 99
SMN/WHM highest cure spell: Cure III, RDM/WHM highest cure spell: Cure IV.

When I put up the stats, I was told "Well I would join, but I simply will not main heal." from another red mage.

Now based on that which job is a better healer? Summoner because it has more mp right? Not with my experiences.
 
You forget that RDMs have a LOT more to do in a party than a Summoner. Summoners do a Bloodpact every minute and have nothing to do except heal between that minute.

I'm not trying to shoehorn anyone, I just fail to see what other people want to spend that minute doing. I HATE not being main healer in a party, I just feel useless between minutes, nothing to do.
 
.....
 
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Trippyhippy said:
I have never been let down by a FF game, and the MMO that I had been playing was on it's last legs (R.I.P. Earth and Beyond).

E&B is my favorite MMO of all time. I played from beta to sunset and loved every moment of it.

150 PW
150 JD
150 TW

RIP :(
 
Trippy and Mokk, you guys were in one of my very first parties in Bubu around 16.
We lvl'd very quickly and then we set out for Selbina on the ship.
I remember staying in the first part of the ship with Trippy because I was scared to go out. Trippy gave me a pearl to what was maybe 5 people in Trippieshappycrowd.
I didn't hear from both of you until I partied with Trippy around 53, which was almost a year later.
I still had my pearl in my mog and after the party quickly ran back to my mog to equip it.
If you quit, I'll miss ya, but I'll understand.
 
I'll do my best to explain my position so people can see how I go about deciding how to play any specific job.and rank it in terms of value in a party.

Basically any choice you make in terms of strategy has a potential benefit and a potential loss and in different individual situations these can be more or less extreme and important. For example...

When I play Ninja, I have several different potential gear pieces for several slots. Let's just say Koga Chainmail versus Scorpion Harness+1. To define what it is that I pick to wear is to question what I see the job as. If I'm using boxer's mantle, Scorp, breeze rings, ext, I'm trying to be a person who has a lot of evasion. If I'm using alternative gear, I'm trying to be a person who has a lot of DD power.

Different fights lend preference to difference gear setups, and different strategies. Sometimes I'll spam ninjutsu. Sometimes I won't use at all.

I don't see Final Fantasy as a game where the emphasis is teamwork. I see the emphasis as problem solving. From the creation when you're walking around, you're constantly trying to solve problems. You're no good without a subjob, so you must get a subjob. This is not a quest, this is a problem.

People who excel in endgame are not always "team players". Quite often they are just good problem solvers. The problem is, "I want to get X piece of armor." They then chart out a process of which they can achieve it. Sometimes step 1 is: Leave my LS, join this 1 who will be more efficient at getting me this piece of armor. Teamwork is not the emphasis here.

So when I am tanking a mob that can tear me to shreds easily, that monster is the problem. Evasion gear is the solution.

And so I look at SMN, the question is, how do I get the most out of this job?

First off, to get the most out of SMN, I want SMN to be in some way unique as far as benefits are concerned. What can SMN do uniquely...? Well for several mobs endgame it can be a very effective DD. The problem is, how to get it there.

So the problem is: Leveling Summoner.

I'm not trying to define SMN as: Main healer, DD, Buffer.

I'm trying to get it to 75 the most efficient way possible.

Therefore I want to get the most amount of exp possible in the time I have available to level it.

Now where does SMN fit in in terms of an exp party? Well you'll have to examine it's abilities.

SMN/WHM.

BP every minute.

Ability of avatars to melee.

Ability to cast Cure 3 and most status affect cures.

Autorefresh.


Now as far as an exp party is concerned... you need at most, 3 jobs to = nonstop pulling. Some sort of tank, some sort of refresh and some sort of healer.

In a cannon type party, the healer can be the refresher. Sometimes no tank is even required. One thing however to consider.

Do DRKs sub WHM for exp parties?

The answer is of course no. And why? Well you can't DD and be a main healer at the same time. Why not? Well for 1 you need to rest. That means TP = bye bye. Another weaker damage by far, less utility in terms of what the DD might perform as a DD. No MP pool.. they'd be holding the party back. If they're the only healer, they'd get more efficient as the DRK starts subbing in more MP gear and uses light staff and becomes less and less of a DD. Just the same as mages melee they become less and less efficient at doing whatever they are supposed to be doing.

The problem with specialization is you can only be doing 1 thing at any 1 point in time. So usually everyone has 1 general task. "Deal damage", "heal people", "enfeeble", "buff", "tank." If I try and heal people as a BLM, my damage suffers. I have less MP to nuke. I have more hate, I can't nuke as often.

So when people say they don't want to main heal as SMN, I ask, so what do you want to do?

In the start when I came on QCDN talking about SMN, everyone was telling me how SMN were great DDs. 95% of those people who were talking with me I think had never actually partied with a SMN on FFXI. On a long drawn out post I posted all the attack BPs SMN get. Their damage, their MP cost, the dmg/mp ratio and compared it with similar BLM spells of the same levels.

SMN got thoroughly owned. I don't think most of you understand how much by. Like 1.5 dmg per mp versus 3.5 mostly. Then BLM can do cool things like drain, aspir and has no BP timer.

Even without the BP timer, SMN would still get owned. SMN would run out of MP before it could get what a BLM could do in half their MP bar.

Now let's compare to RDM or BRD, to try to consider SMN a support job.

Dispel-. Well, ok, SMN can do dispel off fenrir. This dispel takes over 10 seconds to get off firstly. Rdm or Brd do it in about a second. Next RDM and BRD can do dispel or finale and it only affects their other duties during the second they are casting it. If you use a dispel BP you are unable to use another BP for a minute.

SMN dispel is less than worthless. It'd be better to just live with whatever buff the mob has because doing the SMN BP will give more cost than benefit. It's a ruse that hurts the exp of the SMN with less strategy.

MP regen. Well that's easy. RDM and BRD have some, SMN has none.

Buffs: Well, RDM may lose out to SMN here, but then RDM can debuff the mob way better than SMN could. BRD owns SMN hard here. I am not a main brd, so I can't spit numbers at you. But BRD wins hands down. RDM debuffs the mob, BRD buffs the party. SMN does both worse. Despecialization the way to go? Do a little of both? Maybe it would work except the 1 minute BP limits you to pick 1 basically. And the debuffs are so weak you'd be better off stacking buffs.

Now healing. No surprise here, SMN gets owned again.

No cure 4. No cure 5. No raise 2. No raise 3. No regens worth casting.

Cure 3 is exping however the most used cure spell. And as far as "healing power" is concerned... my BLM, SMN, WHM, PLD...whatever, they can all cast the same "cure 3."

So the owning isn't really hard. And then... WHM is usually way overkill for a decent party. So what does SMN throw into the equation?

Well while SMN is main healing a tank that doesn't require much healing, while the WHM would sit on full MP and do jack shit, the SMN can buff the party. As well, for tanks that DO require more healing, there are many BPs that benefit reducing damage and some that increase your own party damage in the process.

So in some situations, SMN is the better main healer. In some situations, worse. However i've never been in a situation where I was unable to do it as either.

People who say that SMN doesn't get cure except for subjob forget that Ninja doesn't get provoke except for subjob. Forget what a job is supposed to do. Forget what the designers wished it to do. If you want to play a summoner as how you believe they were intended, and that means throwing avatars as the mob and melee with them and BP and throw some backup cures, then when I'm trying to solve the problem of getting whatever job I want to 75, then inviting you is not the solution. It doesn't mean I think you're an asshole, it means I want exp and you're bad at getting it.

All those SMN who are bad at getting exp are the reason mine sat so long waiting for party. When people consider inviting me they have to consider if as a SMN I am serious about getting exp. many players are not serious about getting exp. I have gotten so many invites as a DD, buffer, backup curer it makes me sick. I do the best I can, but the party is inevitably weak, because of me.

If an update shall allow me to play as that and get the best exp, then it will make me happy, because I'll get invites finally. I don't need an update to play SMN and get good exp. I want an update to get invited because people won't invite me as main healer cause so many SMN refuse to and because so many don't see the advantage of SMN healer over WHM.

People who invite my SMN as DD, or buffer or whatever they think it "should" be, are generally people not too worried about how much exp they can possibly get. Hence the parties I get usually aren't so great in terms of my own goals. People who invite me as a main healer because they couldn't find a WHM to do it on the other hand are at least thinking with the same mindset as me, and quite often we get some great exp and they gain a little respect for the SMN class, by me doing a better job main healing then they're used to with most WHM.

I don't see me as closed minded for saying SMN = Main Healer. I see people refusing to look at the numbers as closed minded for saying they want to play SMN not gimpWHM. If you want to play SMN as "guy who refuses to main heal," then what are you really except someone refusing to accept reality?
 
Trippyhippy said:
Here is a problem for you to solve.

How can I have fun playing summoner?

I'll be waiting for a reply.

You can accept what they are capable of and have fun playing as such, or you can play a job that most closely resembles what it is that you want to play to have fun as. If you want to play SMN as some certain way it doesn't work out as I'll say the same as someone might to a BLM who always melees with scythe. Maybe you should be playing DRK not BLM if that's what you enjoy.

But then if exp parties aren't everything to you, you can play in questing/adventuring however the hell you want.

If SMN must be "this" to have fun. If SMN are not that, then SMN are not that. If playing SMN is all that prevents you from quitting, and you don't have fun main healing, then quit. I don't see the benefit of having expectations for any jobs you had before you actually played the game. If I saw Ninja as being only a DD and not a tank, and I then demanded Ninja to be that or else I would quit FF, then what do you expect a post on QCDN to do about it? SMN on the way up is just a main healer that most people play incorrectly. Your whole OP is just a series of "I thought the game would be this way, and then I played and it turned out this way."

Well the community can't change the game balance. The people on QCDN may symphathize but they can't change SMN's balance. People can invite you as a random task doer but it wont make SMN effective at leveling as that.
 
Trippyhippy said:
Here is a problem for you to solve.

How can I have fun playing summoner?

I'll be waiting for a reply.

I actually kind of find this post to be rather insulting. Just because you don't enjoy a job doesn't mean it's boring/broken. I really enjoy my job as summoner and wouldn't change it a bit.
 
Sabia said:
I actually kind of find this post to be rather insulting. Just because you don't enjoy a job doesn't mean it's boring/broken. I really enjoy my job as summoner and wouldn't change it a bit.

You misunderstand.

I do enjoy the job. But not as a main healer. My question was specificly aimed at firestreak in response to his post saying that Smn was best as a main healer for a Ninja and sucked at everything else.
 
Firestreek I respect your post but after 70 a smn can very much DD I can output 1k + Bps with no hate while still healing a party. I will agree pre 70 aside from bursting with your teir 2 or teir 4 nukes SMN is pretty much support after 70 everything changes. Still you have to be mindful of what you are fighitng and the makeup of the party.

Even after 70 I still main heal alot and I really don't mind doing so but people need to realize we can output alot of damage post 70 as well
 
Firestreak said:
Now healing. No surprise here, SMN gets owned again.

No cure 4. No cure 5. No raise 2. No raise 3. No regens worth casting.

Cure 3 is exping however the most used cure spell. And as far as "healing power" is concerned... my BLM, SMN, WHM, PLD...whatever, they can all cast the same "cure 3."

So the owning isn't really hard. And then... WHM is usually way overkill for a decent party. So what does SMN throw into the equation?

Well while SMN is main healing a tank that doesn't require much healing, while the WHM would sit on full MP and do jack shit, the SMN can buff the party. As well, for tanks that DO require more healing, there are many BPs that benefit reducing damage and some that increase your own party damage in the process.

So in some situations, SMN is the better main healer. In some situations, worse. However i've never been in a situation where I was unable to do it as either.

People who say that SMN doesn't get cure except for subjob forget that Ninja doesn't get provoke except for subjob. Forget what a job is supposed to do. Forget what the designers wished it to do. If you want to play a summoner as how you believe they were intended, and that means throwing avatars as the mob and melee with them and BP and throw some backup cures, then when I'm trying to solve the problem of getting whatever job I want to 75, then inviting you is not the solution. It doesn't mean I think you're an asshole, it means I want exp and you're bad at getting it.
OK you also didn't mention that WHM can Haste, give you great bar spells, erase the bad effects that mobs like to spam on you, Protectra and Shellra last longer than any BP will, If there is an effect that erase won't cure WHM can take that off of you, Regen II is great for any tank that a WHM parties with, Divine Veil can only be done by WHM saving 100s of MP and generally making the party perform better, WHM can burst on light SCs the best, flash is awsome for a NIN tank that gets interupted in casting, um ... what else did I miss.... there is more but I'm drunk and your post just really pissed me off.
 
TRIP, my summ is 69. i can whole heartedly relate to what u r going through right now. i got so sick of main healing i went back to leveling WM since i was main heal anyways. i put summoner on the shelf to get a break. some days i get parties that expect me to dd with avatars and those are the days i stay on the game for 12 hours at a time. i found on downtime while lfp i go solo in places i have never been before since i find soloing much easier the higher i get. that gave me a break from the usual. no i dont like to craft but i only do it when i need the gil. i really started to enjoy summoner after 60 but 50-60 was a pain in the @@@. very repetative with the main heal parties. all i can say is grind it out a little more and play how you want, to enjoy the job. screw everyone else and how they want you to play in party. make your own and take lead. it may take a little longer denying parties that want a main heal but hell its not a race. we are unique in the sense of how long it took and what we as summoners had to do to get to this point. hardest job to open in game, period. make it fun again by doing different things and setting goals for your summoner. all the work you put into it so far will pay off if you keep playing. i relished quitting many times and still do, but that itch still brings me back. i will be a 75 summoner one day that took the happy road to get there. i think you will too.
 
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