Summoner makes me want to quit.

[Bigboy]

there is more but I'm drunk and your post just really pissed me off.

LOL...

Well, when you sober up, you'll find you agreed with him.

Best use I've found for a SMN is SC partner, since they pretty much get to "WS" every minute. In that reguard they are helping the other melee's be more effective, and giving the BLMs and RDMs something else to burst on. And there is no worry about the Avatar taking hate, because its like a nice mobile glob of stoneskin. It dies and the tank is spared hits without loosing hate to someone that would get clobbered and cause downtime.

 

[Shaidalyn]

I am curious, since I find soloing to be the most enjoyable thing next to... duoing.

Can 2 Smn duo very high or no? I know 2 Bst can meander to 75... What about Smn?

 

[Fureya]

Elemental avatars need to have permanent Enspell like the Primes.

Thanks goodness I'm not the only person who believes that

Here is a problem for you to solve.
How can I have fun playing summoner?
I'll be waiting for a reply.

You could try forming a static party. If you form a static that doesn't mind HOW you want to play SMN, then maybe you can have fun. I've been with my static since the NA release. When I started on SMN, (back before the 20th level battles and the damage upgrade) I only had Carbuncle from level 25 - about 32 (gimp damage!) We have a WHM and a BRD, so I didn't have to heal. Our leader had me sub BLM (I sub WHM now because Talena is getting lazy and I'm too cheap to buy extra oils and powders)

 

[Galaika]

I am curious, since I find soloing to be the most enjoyable thing next to... duoing.

Can 2 Smn duo very high or no? I know 2 Bst can meander to 75... What about Smn?

SMN can solo, so yes, thay can duo, trio, etc.

 

[Galaika]

Here is a problem for you to solve.

How can I have fun playing summoner?

I'll be waiting for a reply.

Like Fureya said, if you MUST play summoner and want to have fun doing it your way, make yourself a static that doesnt mind playing it your way for less xp but more fun if you know them and have fun playing with them.

Otherwise, you will just run into parties that want more xp and want you to main heal.

 

[Zaltana]

Elemental avatars need to have permanent Enspell like the Primes.

now there i agree with you.

 

[Neyla]

I am curious, since I find soloing to be the most enjoyable thing next to... duoing.

Can 2 Smn duo very high or no? I know 2 Bst can meander to 75... What about Smn?

SMN can duo or trio the same BSTs can, but with probably less efficiency since BSTs aren't nearly as dependent on MP. (A BST equipped with a Gaudy Harness has absolutely no downtime at all.) SMNs do well against suicide mobs and I'm sure a duo/trio could take on a wider variety of foes, but I'm not sure they'd do as well as a BST duo that can get Chain 4-5 on VT-IT (non-suicide) mobs every time, when they have the opportunity. In the end how you fare depends largely on what you're fighting.

 

[Firestreak]

Yes, 70+ SMN can be a DD. however still not a really great DD... but much better than before, acceptable enough to use as that. They start to get good when they hit 75, cap out merits and get all the avatar strength boosting endgame gear.

LOL...

Well, when you sober up, you'll find you agreed with him.

Best use I've found for a SMN is SC partner, since they pretty much get to "WS" every minute. In that reguard they are helping the other melee's be more effective, and giving the BLMs and RDMs something else to burst on. And there is no worry about the Avatar taking hate, because its like a nice mobile glob of stoneskin. It dies and the tank is spared hits without loosing hate to someone that would get clobbered and cause downtime.

A SMN as a skillchain DD is just akward. I've tried it before.

Everyone says, "If you want decent WS-BP damage, save up TP!"

This shows 2 things: Even from the camp that want SMN to be DD..

1. They must save TP to deal damage.
2. Without saving TP they don't deal good damage.

If you try and save avatar TP to make decent damage BPs as everyone claims(I don't really support this), you have to keep it out and draining MP during downtime. This puts a time limint on how long you can go as a SMN DD. Without resting you can't do it for very long til you run out of MP, even with a huge MP pool.

Even if you do a Melee WS BP every fight, without resting between the BPs, you will surely run out of MP. before the chain is up.

So if all you do is use the SMN to WS BP... All you can do is WS BP and nothing else.

What does this mean?

Well if I invite a sam to my party... they can do tons of damage, building up TP as well as doing a skillchain that will do consistantly good damage.

If I invite a smn to my party to do what I want the sam to do, they can do a BP every minute, average less damage than the sam's WS and offer no melee damage to me. They may run out of MP in the process causing downtime. They will miss WS quite often. They need 10+ seconds to prepare for the WS. They must be refreshed.

Clearly... SMN is not a good skillchain partner...

 

[Kyp]

Like I said Trippy, I will static whm with you, if we can find a permanent tank we won't have to worry about it.

After posting last in this thread, I was chatting with some of my linkshell about this situation. Some of them agree with some of the points made by others. But I pointed out my thing about the red mages joining the static.

It came down to this:

If RDM says, "I don't wanna main heal." people say, "Ok." whereas if a Summoner says they would prefer not to main heal, people won't invite them or will treat them like shite. The why to this situation.. the simple truth? Summoner doesn't have the ability to use the crack spell that everyone is so addicted to, refresh.

After that even some of the supporters of healing summoners in my shell were like, "Wow, good point." Noone ever tries to invite a red mage to main heal and hear "Well I don't like to main heal." and then says.. well nevermind you can't join. It just doesn't happen.

Trip, I will static with you, we'll have fun with it. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[Mishaela]

Here is a problem for you to solve.

How can I have fun playing summoner?

I'll be waiting for a reply.

No one can really tell you how to have fun, because we're not you...one person may like healing on SMN, one may despise it. The list goes on and on. Unfortunately for SMN, most of their career WILL be spent either main healing or seeking for parties. If avatars had a little more kick to them (wether it be a powerful, permanent enspell or strong nukes that ignore shadows like the Primes do), maybe our summons would actually be a bit more useful pre-70. But for now, they're mostly minor support buffs at absolute best; the only ones remotely good are Ecliptic Howl/Growl (and that varies)...Stoneskin I'm 50-50 on only because most AOEs tear that down instantly, and in the time you waste putting it back up you could be giving the party one of the Fen BPs and just toss a Curaga inbetween.

But I digress...it's a sad truth that avatars aren't some pinnacle of greatness that you might hope. We're pretty much invited as so-so support, and good enough-to-get-by healing. It changes slightly post-70 (or even 65, but only vs VT and less is Eclipse Bite remotely useful), but still not much.

RDMs get invites for Refresh, not for their melee or nuke power. PLDs get invites to tank, not to pop on a Haubergeon and be some heavy DD. WHMs get invites to cure, not to missfest with their silly little 1h weapon with a 2h's delay. It's just how the game's molded to be, and maybe in the future that'll change, but maybe it won't. =/



In response to Firestreak, I semi-disagree. When I first got Tail Whip, it was decent for Detonation (even with just 7TP it'd do 240ish + SC) and the Gravity effect (if it kicked in) provided some use at times...but that also went out the window after Worker Crawlers. =/

 

[Firestreak]

Like I said Trippy, I will static whm with you, if we can find a permanent tank we won't have to worry about it.

After posting last in this thread, I was chatting with some of my linkshell about this situation. Some of them agree with some of the points made by others. But I pointed out my thing about the red mages joining the static.

It came down to this:

If RDM says, "I don't wanna main heal." people say, "Ok." whereas if a Summoner says they would prefer not to main heal, people won't invite them or will treat them like shite. The why to this situation.. the simple truth? Summoner doesn't have the ability to use the crack spell that everyone is so addicted to, refresh.

After that even some of the supporters of healing summoners in my shell were like, "Wow, good point." Noone ever tries to invite a red mage to main heal and hear "Well I don't like to main heal." and then says.. well nevermind you can't join. It just doesn't happen.

Trip, I will static with you, we'll have fun with it. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

RDM, BLM, SMN can all main heal. The difference is almost none of BLM's spells can support the task of healing. Just stun to reduce damage and aspir to regain MP. RDM and BLM have other tasks they can do in a party that's exceptionally useful.

Calling refresh "crack" and trying to downplay it's usefulness is silly. It keeps the chain going and stops downtime from happening. That's hugely important. RDM has it, SMN does not. RDM can effectively debuff the mobs, RDM and mp-efficiently burst the skillchain.. SMN cannot. Yes RDM can also give SMN a run for its money as main healer, but RDM as a nonhealer is still a great addition to the party, SMN as a nonhealer is second rate at everything it does.

SMN should WANT to be a healer, the problem is people start the job wanting it to be different than it is, and expect people to overlook all its weaknesses and just invite them and suck up exp loss.

 

[Kyp]

RDM, BLM, SMN can all main heal. The difference is almost none of BLM's spells can support the task of healing. Just stun to reduce damage and aspir to regain MP. RDM and BLM have other tasks they can do in a party that's exceptionally useful.

BLM and SMN are in the same boat in that situation, they both only have cure because it is given by subs. Thus they have the same abilities if they are the same level. A Black Mage is far less useful if he's not bursting, but sometimes BLM has a lot of time between casts too, unless someone knows a secret about them not drawing hate that i'm not aware of.

Calling refresh "crack" and trying to downplay it's usefulness is silly. It keeps the chain going and stops downtime from happening. That's hugely important. RDM has it, SMN does not. RDM can effectively debuff the mobs, RDM and mp-efficiently burst the skillchain.. SMN cannot. Yes RDM can also give SMN a run for its money as main healer, but RDM as a nonhealer is still a great addition to the party, SMN as a nonhealer is second rate at everything it does.

I would agree with your point on refresh being important in the slightest, my post was attempting to make the point that noone forces the red mage to do something they don't like for the good of your party setup simply because they do have refresh. My Static pt has approached or made 5k an hour with no refresh. There are some setups that a rdm/blm isn't going to help but yet i've had a rdm refuse to be a healer when they naturally have healing skills and with a sub they have up to Cure IV. Yes it keeps the chain going and that's awesome. As far as Rdm vs Smn main healer: RDM can thoroughly stomp SMN as a main healer when compared side by side. The only difference between the 2 is that the Summoner usually has a much more vast mp pool. But when you go and add in Convert.. is that really true? Once again for Trippy's stand point, he's not asking to be a NONHEALER just not a MAIN Healer.

SMN should WANT to be a healer, the problem is people start the job wanting it to be different than it is, and expect people to overlook all its weaknesses and just invite them and suck up exp loss.

I like the BP Buffs they give personally, I don't mind them using the avatar to hurt the monster between attacks, occasionally when i'm on pld with smn I like this because I can lay off and let the avatar have hate if i'm running low on abilities(admittedly this doesn't happen often, but still) and let the monster beat on the avatar for a minute to regain some of my hate moves.

 

[Alerith]

Every job has its weakness though.

WAR: Great melee, ZERO magic.

RDM: Good all around white magic, black magic, melee skills. Allows the player to choose what to excel in. Downside is that regardless of which you choose to excel in, its still not as well as the
other two sepcialized jobs.

WHM: The main healer/buffer. Not so good on black magic.

BLM: Good DD/Nuker. Not so good on white magic.

MNK: Good melee, semi-decent tank, downside is giving mobs more TP and abillities like Chakra arent until later levels.

DRG: Hahahahahaha.....next.

Ranger: Good ranged. Decent melee. Without accuracy gear though, your bound to miss more than you would like. Expensive.

Summoner: Like red mage, it all depends on where you want to take the job. DD? Healer? Both? Its all up to the player. But what you still wont be as good as other specialized classes.

Ninja: DD or Tank? Take your pic. You can excel in either one, but not both at the same time. Expensive.

Play your job how you want to. You will find others who want to do the same. You will even find parties who could care less and will invite you for fun.

Comparing WHM and SMN as main healers is like comparing NIN and WAR to main tanks. Which would you rather have?

Summoner should be a support class, like WAR help NIN tank, SMN should HELP WHM heal. Not be main healers themselves.

SE didnt release SMN to be the WHM replacment. SE didnt release NIN to be a blink tank in the beginning either.

It boils down to how you WANT to play your job and how much time you are willing to put into it. If you want to play your job your way, dont expect mass party invites, but work at it as it will still move along.

 

[Firestreak]

Here's where you're wrong about BLM and SMN being in the same boat.

SMN has about 6 BPs that are very useful for damage reduction. 3 of them in the process add damage through buffing.

You have to use good strategy to use BPs to support the healing process.

Now if a SMN can BP while main healer. The avatar has 1 set of hate, and the SMN has another set of hate. The trick is you are the SMN and the avatar in one. Bad SMN will play only as avatar or only as SMN. With the huge MP pool, with wise use of it you can main heal and then use additional MP that would be wasted to BP. If you use BPs that will reduce damage then you have to cure less, saving more MP for the next BP.

I can't main heal as a BLM and use black magic. That's healing hate + nuking hate.

I wrote a guide a few months ago: http://www.qcdn.org/showthread.php?t=16814

This explains some strategies and strengths of the SMN main healer.

Of course if you just don't like main healing...

Don't play SMN..

 

[Alerith]

This explains some strategies and strengths of the SMN main healer.

Of course if you just don't like main healing...

Don't play SMN..

Thats bull though. Someone shouldnt be dettered from a job they like for one reason or another just because they don't conform to the way people want it to be played. If you don't want to main heal, by all means dont be the main healer. You will probably level slower, but if you play the job the way you like it and your still moving along and having fun, thats all that matters.

My suggestion would be to stop listening to everyone else and play the way you want. Form a static (As was stated before) and enjoy the game because in the end thats what it is. A FUN game.

 

[Firestreak]

Thats bull though. Someone shouldnt be dettered from a job they like for one reason or another just because they don't conform to the way people want it to be played. If you don't want to main heal, by all means dont be the main healer. You will probably level slower, but if you play the job the way you like it and your still moving along and having fun, thats all that matters.

My suggestion would be to stop listening to everyone else and play the way you want. Form a static (As was stated before) and enjoy the game because in the end thats what it is. A FUN game.

And it's fun for me to skillup my scythe as a BLM in an exp party, but I won't do it. If I want to melee with a scythe I'll play DRK.

 

[Alerith]

And it's fun for me to skillup my scythe as a BLM in an exp party, but I won't do it. If I want to melee with a scythe I'll play DRK.

And thats your choice. Good for you. Someone want to skillup scythe as a BLM in an exp party? Not quite effective, but if thats what they want to do, and they can find a party to do so, the good for them.

 

[Kyp]

There you go being all efficient again, relax.. have a smoke a coffee or something.. it's ok.. you don't NEED 7k+ hr experience to be doing well, If you're not standing around in Jeuno and you're killing things for experience.. good show.. have fun and enjoy yourself.. that's the most important part of a game.

 

[Alerith]

Can we take a moment to define what exactly these two jobs are?

White Mage: Specializes in Healing Magic and Enhancing Magic.

Summoner: A Mage Class job that allows you to summon avatars to aid you in battle.

Mage Class does not necissarily mean Healing.

Healing Class: WHM, RDM, SMN
DD Class: BLM, RDM, SMN
Enhancing Class: WHM, RDM, SMN
Enfeebling Class: BLM, RDM
Summoning Class: SMN (duh)

Each job can excel in more than one different area. You cant point at someone and say "You WILL be this class." Its just not right.

 

[Mishaela]

Alerith...your view of cons on jobs is...well, silly. "they're bad if they lack acc" can be said about all jobs.

WAR is a heavy DD, the downside is they have poor evasion skill.
MNK is a heavy DD, the downside is they aren't great of defense.
RNG is a heavy DD, the downside is no multi-hit ranged WS nor means to ensure WS hits, making their WS error-rate the highest of any job.
WHM is a healer, their downside is they have poor melee skill and die easily.
BLM is a nuker, their downside is they have poor melee skill and die easily.
RDM is a decent healer/nuker/melee, their downside is they're not the best at any of these, which is actually probably the smallest fault of any of the jobs.
BRD is a support. They can boost virtually any needed attribute in the entire .game as needed. Their downside is they aren't good at melee.
DRG is a TP-heavy DD. Their downside is a LOT of crap is strong vs. spears.
SAM is a very-TP heavy DD. Their downside is a LOT of crap is strong vs. G.Katana.


SMN is a little bit of everything. They can give so-so buffs, so-so cures, or so-so nukes. Their downside is the outreageous MP cost as well as the 1-minute timer they have with these. They're the only job whom gets such an insane cost for their main abilities, which makes them, unlike every other job in the game, rely ENTIRELY on their subjob to be of any major use. The only exception even remotely close to this is tank jobs subbing WAR for provoke. If SE gave each individual a Blood Pact timer of their own, maybe fixed how long/strong avatar buffs were it'd be good, but really, 1 action PER MINUTE just wouldn't fly on any job unless it did something purely insane, like a 2500-damage nuke or a Hastega that lasted a bit more than 60 seconds.