Teh 1337 Rdm debate.......

[Bigboy]

Its not a moot point. Most of the time the WHM and RDM share hastes. And you could take over the rest of the WHM's haste cycle instead.

And spending 20 min before you convert is useless, as when you drop to 100 MP after 19 min, it still puts you in the same situation as it did when you had 100 MP and 1 min left on convert timer.

You should always try to time it right, as taking over more of the WHM's jobs means he'll have more MP over, meaning he'll have to rest more, meaning less downtime.

I don't have any tasks to take over from the WHM though, if I am hasting people those are the ones I haste, if the WHM never dips below 500MP anyways, how am I helping XP per hour by taking the tasks from them and then them not being able to see when it wears?

How am I helping anything by doing more than I am already doing? If its something that would have helped earlier, it was already being done. I have no extra tasks to do. I litterally cannot burn through my MP fast/effectively enough to warrent me converting every time its ready to be used. If you can, you aren't doing enough. I seriously run out of shit to do. Nuke? Costs more time than it saves. Buff? If I wasn't already doing it, I fail. Enfeeb? If I'm not already doing it, I fail. Rest? That's an option but that just gets me more MP. You see, when you dont suck, and the people around you dont suck, you don't convert, cuz you cant find anything useful to do with that MP. Maybe its cuz you're an Elvaan or something, but I have far more MP than I can burn sensibly in 10 minutes. Only time I would need to convert close to my timer is if I am the only mage in the PT.

And as for the chainspell -> convert thing. It do happen. An example is the puller pulling a link, and a mob popping in camp at the same time. It often does not lead to a bad situation, as Sleep II and Sleep should keep them busy, but with some bad luck, it can turn in to a bad situation. Chainspell have saved my own and my party's life more times then I can count from 1 to 75 on my RDM.

As for convert, you should always have stoneskin up when you convert anyway, so I don't see why that's an argument? A bad timed AoE attack can kill you during convert. Stoneskin will pretty much never cause you to die during a convert.

Once again, what I was refering to, would never have any barring on a PT situation. If your PT pulls a link past the level you have sleepga or sleep 2 and it's a problem, you fail. These are scenarios where a RDM should get away without a scratch on them, I never need chainspell except for gimicky shit like nuking a dynamis boss, or killing something big solo, or something unique of that nature.

Quite frankly, chainspell is pretty useless in most emergencies, since its not an emergency if you have the MP that would actually be needed to use it. Chainspell is mostly for fun and predetermined uses where it is planned to be used ahead of time.

 

[K. Ishitar]

Wow... I can't believe I'm going to say this... but Kire is right -shudders and dies a little inside-. a RDM nuking is pretty worthless MP waste. I just nuked til my Elemental Magic was capped just 'cause I wanted all my skills capped. But damage was shit and really isn't worth it.. SURE RDM's do have nukes and can use them but why? We have so much other things to worry about then to toss a Thunder III MB for 50 dmg.

And on a side not... Kire seems to know as much as Khidir -misspelling- since it seems he has /SMN. Thats as good as seeing a RDM/NIN in the party.

If you have never pted with me then you really don't know much about me.

When you nuke you don't use your highest tier nukes to bring down the mob thats pointless and wastes mp, its better to use the lower tier nukes for consistent and weak damage.

Ever since 55 I can make an mb on distortion for 302 with blizzard II its not a a waste thats 3/4's the dd of a regular sidewinder at 55.

I haven't really had any good rngs in the Wajoam Woodlands to pt with a good distortion sc I can probrably break even more my fire II at my lv (58 ) can do about 234-281.

I don't have the best sub in the world but I haven't had someone say 32+ that I can't do my job right. If you think auto refresh is wasted then try taking off the mp effect, you can take from sanction when you pt there, its a lovely feature but doesn't make up for my lack of flexible spells(ie tractor,escape,elemental enfeebles,etc.) Whms, plds, blms,etc. having auto sanction notice a difference too otherwise they wouldn't have it, and it makes it means more mp recovery when i refresh them.

And to answer your question Deadalius(don't think it was) Since mobs are quickly killed as you get higher up you just want some effect of the enfeeble on them rather than the potency since the mob will be killed soon. It would be better be able to stick the effect on them rather than swap gear for potency and fail debuffing them several times. It usually wastes a little more mp depending on the debuff.

And on a side note.....


I go to sleep for 2hrs and it hits 6 pages?! was expecting only two! Great thread eh?


And bigboy... Chainspell is usesless?! What are you smoking?! Chainspell>raise pt/alliance Chainspell>main heal every friggin one and in early lvs chainspell>nuke? Are you saying with only low mp and without convert and without refresh on? What are the odds of that though? A rdm never goes without refreshing himself

 

[Reishu]

Firstly, whoever said they should always use +enfeeb gear for enfeebs doesn't know how to get the best from Blind/Paralyze/Slow. You want an enfeeb that does more than just stick? That's what INT and MND are for. +enfeeb gear is best used to stick things to HNMs and gods, when you're say... trioing something, you'll want the enfeeb to be more than just stick. Gravity is something you'll always want to stick well, regardless of potency. Paralyze on say Kirin is something you'll need all your +enfeeb gear for (and even then you'll probably paralyze worth shit). Slow/Para/Blinding say a Hurrican Wyvern because you're helping someone farm for their burger king crown is something you'll want every bit of potency you can get.

As far as RDM nuking goes, RDM can use their mp more efficiently with buffing. In a normal pick-up party (not a cannon by any means), a RDM may have extra mp. Occasionally a RDM may want to nuke to try to get a chain #6... but that's weak sauce for a party. If the SC is there, MB? depends on how much the party needs your mp pool really.

A good party will be made to use a RDM's mp pool at its best. It might be refresh or haste whoring, but the party's role for a RDM in those parties is still with a RDM helping CURE, not NUKE.

MB'ing an enfeeb is always fun though

RDM melee -can- be done, about as well as a PLD meleeing, which nobody complains about... however in a serious party meleeing is out of the question. If the party can't break chain 6, and a RDM has no issues keeping necessary things up, then it's a toy party. You may as well melee to keep the fun element there.

For everyone who says RDM can do everything, therefore they should: Lighten up. You're the reason why people give up on having fun on RDM.

 

[Daryus]

I actually have a question for Uzor...

How did you get such a perfect convert ratio???:shok:

And still have those bitching stats?

 

[Uzor]

I don't have any tasks to take over from the WHM though, if I am hasting people those are the ones I haste, if the WHM never dips below 500MP anyways, how am I helping XP per hour by taking the tasks from them and then them not being able to see when it wears?

How am I helping anything by doing more than I am already doing? If its something that would have helped earlier, it was already being done. I have no extra tasks to do. I litterally cannot burn through my MP fast/effectively enough to warrent me converting every time its ready to be used. If you can, you aren't doing enough. I seriously run out of shit to do. Nuke? Costs more time than it saves. Buff? If I wasn't already doing it, I fail. Enfeeb? If I'm not already doing it, I fail. Rest? That's an option but that just gets me more MP. You see, when you dont suck, and the people around you dont suck, you don't convert, cuz you cant find anything useful to do with that MP. Maybe its cuz you're an Elvaan or something, but I have far more MP than I can burn sensibly in 10 minutes. Only time I would need to convert close to my timer is if I am the only mage in the PT.



Once again, what I was refering to, would never have any barring on a PT situation. If your PT pulls a link past the level you have sleepga or sleep 2 and it's a problem, you fail. These are scenarios where a RDM should get away without a scratch on them, I never need chainspell except for gimicky shit like nuking a dynamis boss, or killing something big solo, or something unique of that nature.

Quite frankly, chainspell is pretty useless in most emergencies, since its not an emergency if you have the MP that would actually be needed to use it. Chainspell is mostly for fun and predetermined uses where it is planned to be used ahead of time.

Because you do it wrong. You don't haste them, and then expect the WHM to do it the next time. You take it overcompletely. And if the WHM never drops below 500 MP when he hastes everyone in a non-merit party with a PLD tank, you either pull very slow, or you have a NIN tank, or you have a NIN, or a combination of it all.

With a NIN tank its a whole other situation, as with a good NIN tank you don't have to cure him at all most of the time. With a BRD or COR, then yes, you will have too much MP to be able to waste. And if you pull slow, well, that's the puller's fault, or you just chose a bad camp. This is once again a party situation, and not a merit party situation. I can't imagine the exp/hr being much higher then 6k/hr if both you and the WHM sits at above 50% MP after 10 min, as both of you then seem to be slacking. The WHM would have higher MP if you did more curing, which would speed it up.

And about the elvaan comment, check my sig. I can get above 1k MP, but that would be rather useless as a RDM shouldn't have more MP then HP. And with 134 MND, my enfeebles are probably far more potent then yours, while I still have enough MP to do both main healing, pulling, refreshing, hasting and enfeebling without ever healing in a merit party.

And chainspell is the hundred fists of mage jobs. If used in the right way, it can be extremely usefull.

I actually have a question for Uzor...

How did you get such a perfect convert ratio???:shok:

And still have those bitching stats?

equip switch macroes. That's my MP gear, which I then switch in for +Mnd or +INT or whatever I need for the situation. And as I lose more MP, I switch more gear in. And on HNM's and w/e that might cause more resists, I always have 330 enfeebling magic to back me up, although then I can't break 140 MND as RDM/WHM.

 

[Bigboy]

And about the elvaan comment, check my sig. I can get above 1k MP, but that would be rather useless as a RDM shouldn't have more MP then HP. And with 134 MND, my enfeebles are probably far more potent then yours, while I still have enough MP to do both main healing, pulling, refreshing, hasting and enfeebling without ever healing in a merit party.

Dream on. I can have more MND that you and more MP at the same time and not run the INT and MP defficite you do while doing it. Elvaan MND is the biggest joke that was ever played on the race. Elvaans have the highest MND in the game, and Taru's have the lowest, but even then, at 75 the difference is less than 10. Now there is so much +MND gear(cheap too) that I can grab to reach a point where I match your MND, but surpass to reach your max MND you are sacrifing MP and INT (The INT doesn't matter so much since you can always swap in for INT spells, but I can wear a static set without having to do as much swapping and having greater stats). Throughout the entire leveling process of RDM, MND gear is more than plentiful and cheap. But finding INT gear is far harder and comes in lower boosts.

Basically even if we ate the right food and wore all the best MND gear, I will still have over 200MP more than you to use it and my convert ratio is almost perfect just because of being a taru. I crunched the numbers, and if you are going for raw spell power and a deep MP pool, SE has made Taru better suited in everyway. Show me the INT equivilent of devotee mitts, a promise badge, or hell, even holy phial and you can start trying to pull that Elvaan superiority crap. But while you're eating pies to boost your INT and meak MP pool. I can dwarf you in all 3 stats by eating a goblin mushpot thats sold in the lower jeuno goblin shop for 1.4k

Sure you can have more MND but at the cost of everything else.

 

[hellstorm]

Firstly, whoever said they should always use +enfeeb gear for enfeebs doesn't know how to get the best from Blind/Paralyze/Slow. You want an enfeeb that does more than just stick? That's what INT and MND are for. +enfeeb gear is best used to stick things to HNMs and gods, when you're say... trioing something, you'll want the enfeeb to be more than just stick. Gravity is something you'll always want to stick well, regardless of potency. Paralyze on say Kirin is something you'll need all your +enfeeb gear for (and even then you'll probably paralyze worth shit). Slow/Para/Blinding say a Hurrican Wyvern because you're helping someone farm for their burger king crown is something you'll want every bit of potency you can get.

As far as RDM nuking goes, RDM can use their mp more efficiently with buffing. In a normal pick-up party (not a cannon by any means), a RDM may have extra mp. Occasionally a RDM may want to nuke to try to get a chain #6... but that's weak sauce for a party. If the SC is there, MB? depends on how much the party needs your mp pool really.

A good party will be made to use a RDM's mp pool at its best. It might be refresh or haste whoring, but the party's role for a RDM in those parties is still with a RDM helping CURE, not NUKE.

MB'ing an enfeeb is always fun though

RDM melee -can- be done, about as well as a PLD meleeing, which nobody complains about... however in a serious party meleeing is out of the question. If the party can't break chain 6, and a RDM has no issues keeping necessary things up, then it's a toy party. You may as well melee to keep the fun element there.

For everyone who says RDM can do everything, therefore they should: Lighten up. You're the reason why people give up on having fun on RDM.

im going to agree and disagree on this. It purely stuationable.
For example if you in party brd rdm with nin thank you want to sub whm go for the healing/buffing if you in paty with whm rdm with nin tank then you can sub blm go more for nuking. If you in party pld whm smn rdm then subing brds nice. This purely come down to the player though and what make rdm so unique. Also 5-700 nuke seem worth it to me and i dont have half the elemental magic gear some rdm have.

Any RDM who's meleeing should be SATA'd.

I dont melee anymore in partys but if i was go right ahead. a t or vt wont hurt me to much least not with phalanx and genbu shield equiped. It just not worth it past like 55 though, because A) 2 set of gear melee and mage very costly and to much space B) staffs are need on some mobs(now if only we could us hex strike:evil: ) c) you do more dmg nuking most the time

 

[Uzor]

Dream on. I can have more MND that you and more MP at the same time and not run the INT and MP defficite you do while doing it. Elvaan MND is the biggest joke that was ever played on the race. Elvaans have the highest MND in the game, and Taru's have the lowest, but even then, at 75 the difference is less than 10. Now there is so much +MND gear(cheap too) that I can grab to reach a point where I match your MND, but surpass to reach your max MND you are sacrifing MP and INT (The INT doesn't matter so much since you can always swap in for INT spells, but I can wear a static set without having to do as much swapping and having greater stats). Throughout the entire leveling process of RDM, MND gear is more than plentiful and cheap. But finding INT gear is far harder and comes in lower boosts.

Basically even if we ate the right food and wore all the best MND gear, I will still have over 200MP more than you to use it and my convert ratio is almost perfect just because of being a taru. I crunched the numbers, and if you are going for raw spell power and a deep MP pool, SE has made Taru better suited in everyway. Show me the INT equivilent of devotee mitts, a promise badge, or hell, even holy phial and you can start trying to pull that Elvaan superiority crap. But while you're eating pies to boost your INT and meak MP pool. I can dwarf you in all 3 stats by eating a goblin mushpot thats sold in the lower jeuno goblin shop for 1.4k

Sure you can have more MND but at the cost of everything else.

Then please show me your perfectly balanced MP/HP pool of 968 or more (although my sig is outdated, can get more now), and MND of 134 (I can have more then that with WHM sub and newer gear), and an enfeebling magic of 330. yes, you can get higher INT then me, but that won't matter untill more spells other then nukes (which you say you don't want to cast anyway) are INT based. Although Int won't get you all the way either, as there's also a lot of magic attack bonus gear available, and then there's elemental magic gear... and magic accuracy gear etc.

Although gear won't really matter anyway. A gilseller could get a lot of the gear I have, but I'll be damned if a gilseller ever get better then me. Gear doesn't make you a good player, but it sure does help.

 

[Prothall]

Oh yeah bigboy... Nuking is a useless waste even when MP is no issue. riiiiiight. Because when the mobs die faster.... the melees can't get TP! What is the point of not speeding up this kill, just so they can TP for the next fight? Maybe if you have a THF or /thf that wants to do SATA sc in the beginning for hate. But otherwise, you may as well finish off the one you are fighting, and start building TP while you are fighting the next one anyway.

You act as if killing the mob faster isn't your job, and helping DD is a complete waste of time.
[sarcasm]Maybe I should hold back killing mobs on my BLM so that melees can get TP. I think that would be awesome.[/sarcasm]

edit: edited first line cause it didn't make sense.
Last I heard the way to cap exp was to kill mobs faster.

 

[DarkMagnus]

Yep, mb 700+ is useless. 400-600+ with no mb is very unuseful also.

Since 99% of pt invites I get are cannons or burns, I don't nuke anymore , but in a regular pt I do depending on how many people im refreshing and hasting and curing(a lot of lazy whms out there). After convert I have 881 mp and I am elvaan. With phalanx2 ive noticed plds don't cure or need cures as much, so that gives a bit more freedom in those pt setups.

Like ninjas (counting shadows), at some point you know when convert will be up, without echos or w/e people use to remind them.

 

[Windy]

If before convert go ahead but if you start useing it in chain 3 and it then stops you hitting chain 6~7 as you run out of MP and convert not ready then its a waste

K, no. I'm a Rdm, so I won't go into Brd, but seriously please stop talking about Rdm like we are Refresh/Haste bots. In an Exp pt how often do you invite Blm's at 70+ anyhow? Never? While I like BLM's I never see them. So who cares what they -can- do. Secondly let's take a look.. on IT mobs without any HQ staves I can do 300dmg with Stone III or 500dmg on Burst... hell Blizz II/Thunder II average over 250 on reg casts. How is that no MP efficient?
Oh wait... we'd have to rest........... so? Wtf does it matter if we stand like a retard for half a fight doing absolutely nothing rather than rest?
If you have a Whm and a Nin you cast:
Haste on Nin
Gravity, Dia II on mob
Refresh on yourself, Whm, and any other mages.. Blu when they hit about 60% or Drk when they get to like 40%mp.
Now that's what.. 20 seconds? You still have a bit left in fights pre-75. Fights don't go in 30sec tops here, they average a minute ore two+. So let's stand and watch a wall rather than rest or nuke a little? No thanks. Even with a Pld and Smn you can still refresh the Pld and haste 1-2 melee.

 

[Zeoaesir]

Just saying if you want some one to MB invite a BLM
want some one to reduce down time invite a rdm or brd

Up to around level 60-65, I generally did similar dmg to the blm on identical nukes. Must have something to do with the amount of merits I have and available gear. Sometimes I'd out nuke the blm. This did not make the blm happy.

 

[Numa]

I cut and pasted an old post of mine from another RDM gear discussion. Think We have 5-10 a week

Best way to go about macros is deciding what you do regularly.

1 : Rest. I have a macro for MP and hMP gear.

2 : Combat. For when I stand up. swaps in generic rdm gear. (full errants, etc..)

3 : Paralyze. Spell and all mnd gear macroed.

2 : Slow. Spell and all mnd gear macroed.

3 : Dia II: Spell and all mnd gear macroed.

4 : Blind. Spell and all int gear Macroed.

5 : Bio II. Spell and all int gear Macroed.

6 : Poison II. Spell and all int gear macroed.

Now for those spells I dont put in recast or /p. Ppl dont need to know Im casting it, its on a short recast timer so I can mash until they go off and it leaves an extra line for another piece of gear.

With those spells I also macro in gear, because Depending on resists and when they wear, I may be hopping back and forth between mnd and int based enfeebs very quickly, and I need to know theyll be powerful. Also casting time on slow, paralyze, etc is VERY short, so casting then switching into mnd gear on another macro may not kick in until the spells already gone off. Plus its simpler.

7 : Silence. Auster's Staff and ENFEEBLING gear.

8 : Gravity. Auster's Staff and enfeebling gear.

9 : Bind. Aquilo's Staff and enfeebling gear.

10 : Sleep, -ga, Sleep II. Pluto's Staff and enfeebling gear.

Ill use Enfeebling on these, because Im not as worried about potency as I am with them sticking, since recast on these is long, and not silenging a mage quickly can be deadly.

11 : Cure IV : Healing gear and <stpc>ed.

That way I can use it, then f(whichever member) for a fast strong cure. When you need a cure fast, obviously Youll also need your most powerful cure. For something less urgent, Ill fish the Cure 1-3 or curagas out of my spell list (theyre at the top). once I start casting it, Ill press my Cure IV macro. Im already casting so it wont be able to cast Cure IV, but itll swap in my cure gear.

12 n 13 : Drain / aspir. Pluto's Staff, Dark skill gear, ararin obi.

I use /recast in these since there are only a few dark skill / magic acc. pieces to swap in, and theyre long recast spells I like to use often. I also Generally have a //equip Obi, Since It often isnt dark day/weather, but I want to be able to enable it quickly if it is.

14 : Light MB spell (thunder III). Appropriate staff, elemental skill gear, int gear.

15 : Dark MB spell (Blizz III). Appropriate staff, elemental skill gear, int gear.

16 : Refresh. /ma Refresh <stpc> /recast Refresh

17 : Haste. /ma Hatse <stpc> /recast Haste

Dont bother with "/wait 20 /echo Refresh up!" on these, since in those 20 seconds I WILL press another macro and interrupt it. Besides, You develop an internal clock on these when youve been doing it long enough (I have). And if you need to know, trying it will give you the /recast.


Thats a VERY basic rundown of my Macros. but I think You get the idea.

EDIT: As for MBing - Using my tier 3 spells, I generally MB for like 750-900 dmg. Its useful >.> And You should never have to rest, only time youll feel a bit of a strain is if youre main healing and the DD are pulling too much hate and not using utsu.

GL, n Happy Gaming ^^

 

[Prothall]

In an Exp pt how often do you invite Blm's at 70+ anyhow? Never?

; ; been soloing for exp since I hit 70.

And lol Zeo, I used to do that all the time until I hit 41 and became a refresh whore.

I realize this might not have been clear, but what I meant was this: I just MB when I know I will have free MP, which is not always every MB. Keeping up the cycles and main healing is usually more important.

 

[kriist]

lol

Yep, mb 700+ is useless. 400-600+ with no mb is very unuseful also

I usually avoid this forum like the plague... but I just had to LMAO about that comment.

unuseful.... lol

 

[Zeoaesir]

In an Exp pt how often do you invite Blm's at 70+ anyhow? Never?/QUOTE]

; ; been soloing for exp since I hit 70.

And lol Zeo, I used to do that all the time until I hit 41 and became a refresh whore.

I realize this might not have been clear, but what I meant was this: I just MB when I know I will have free MP, which is not always every MB. Keeping up the cycles and main healing is usually more important.

Aye : )

A high merited blm with top notch gear passed on to a rdm job coming up..

= decent nukes.

Maybe it's just the blm in me, but it's hard to pass by an MB moment, when it becomes available.


For the record..

My hat goes off to dedicated rdm out there. It's a tough/busy/rewarding job, but it's easy to get burnt out on it (Hence my rdm stalled at 72)

 

[Courtney]

Basically even if we ate the right food and wore all the best MND gear, I will still have over 200MP more than you to use it and my convert ratio is almost perfect just because of being a taru. I crunched the numbers, and if you are going for raw spell power and a deep MP pool, SE has made Taru better suited in everyway. Show me the INT equivilent of devotee mitts, a promise badge, or hell, even holy phial and you can start trying to pull that Elvaan superiority crap. But while you're eating pies to boost your INT and meak MP pool. I can dwarf you in all 3 stats by eating a goblin mushpot thats sold in the lower jeuno goblin shop for 1.4k

Sure you can have more MND but at the cost of everything else.

You're actually claiming that you convert with >1168HP and 1168MP?

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

Red Mage has always been my first job. Its the first job I took to 75 and the only job I use in endgame. (Until I get paladin up more). I have spent most of my Vana'Diel life as a RDM and can say from experience:

1) If your an excellent RDM (not trying to sound arrogant here, but I consider myself one), You can heal, buff, enfeeble, and even melee IF you desire.

2) We can replace almost any other mage job in an EXP party except summoner. (and MAYBE WHM depending on how the party is.) If your looking for a certain mage class and only a RDM is available, they will still get the job done.

3) We can effectivly melee with proper gear, but that sacrafices your power in other departments.

4) We can Nuke in place of a BLM and heal in place of a WHM. (With proper gear/food/day/element)

5) We have the most kickass AF out of all the jobs ^^

6) Convert allows you to spend your MP more freely than other mage jobs.

7) Refresh.

8 ) With /NIN, we can solo alot of stuff most other job combos cant.

9) Did I mention the kickass AF?

10) It takes a good player (again, not tooting my own horn) to play an excellent (or even good) Red Mage.

11) Note the sexy AF.

 

[Prothall]

no.. rdm cannot take the place of a blm. Idc what gear you have, you will never outnuke a good blm as a rdm. Even if they are naked. RDM is not a tank, and RDM is also not a DD.

Same goes for whm.. You will never outcure a whm as a rdm. Though you can main heal, you can't do it as good as whm. The thing with whm is that there is a cap of how good a whm can be. That "how good" is just keeping everyone alive and hasted and not hold back chains, which a rdm can do in some setups.

 

[Uzor]

no.. rdm cannot take the place of a blm. Idc what gear you have, you will never outnuke a good blm as a rdm. Even if they are naked. RDM is not a tank, and RDM is also not a DD.

Same goes for whm.. You will never outcure a whm as a rdm. Though you can main heal, you can't do it as good as whm. The thing with whm is that there is a cap of how good a whm can be. That "how good" is just keeping everyone alive and hasted and not hold back chains, which a rdm can do in some setups.

He didn't say we can do it better or just as good. He says we can take their place if you really need one but none is looking.

I like what someone said earlier, RDM is like a swiss knife. It can do the job of a lot of other tools, just not as good as a tool specialized in it.