Teh 1337 Rdm debate.......

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Uzor said:
Only one who can do what? Pull? I'm sure the THf, RNG, or someone else, would love to pull.



the reason I argued with you abotu it was 'cause of your offensive tone about the whoel subject. I don't care who it was that mentioned things, you still talk about not doing them. And also about it "being better" to nuke after 20 min instead of 10.
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I've pulled a chain 65 on my RDM, it's not cannon numbers, but I think I am proficient enough at it. PT was a RDM WHM PLD NIN MNK MNK and amusingly I was subbing /BRD as per request.

I'm not saying RDM should be pulling in a PT, but if you have tons of extra time and MP you can grab the next mob and get it ready, certainly if you're the only one in the PT who has sleep. I don't see what fault youre finding in that. You say nuking helps XP/hour, and I say pulling and debuffing ahead of time does. Nukes have a higher chance of being resisted than using my A+ skill to completely remove pulling time. I'm not marching all the way across the zone for something, but I'll snag it given the chance.

So while others can blow their MP on their C skill abilities while removing time for melees to get more TP, I choose the sure fire method of increasing XP/hour.
 
To answer the OP, I am an elite RDM and you are totally free to discuss my awesomeness, all twenty-two levels of ass kicking leetness!~

*looks around and scampers off in a hurry* :ph34r:
 
Bigboy said:
I've pulled a chain 65 on my RDM, it's not cannon numbers, but I think I am proficient enough at it. PT was a RDM WHM PLD NIN MNK MNK and amusingly I was subbing /BRD as per request.

I'm not saying RDM should be pulling in a PT, but if you have tons of extra time and MP you can grab the next mob and get it ready, certainly if you're the only one in the PT who has sleep. I don't see what fault youre finding in that. You say nuking helps XP/hour, and I say pulling and debuffing ahead of time does. Nukes have a higher chance of being resisted than using my A+ skill to completely remove pulling time. I'm not marching all the way across the zone for something, but I'll snag it given the chance.

So while others can blow their MP on their C skill abilities while removing time for melees to get more TP, I choose the sure fire method of increasing XP/hour.
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You said yourself we're not talking end-game only. But if you want to o there, sure.

Yes, if we're talking in a merit party without a BrD (which do happen), you can pull. Hell, I've done it myself as RDM/NIN. But in a non-merit party (which you said earlier), the RDM shouldn't be pulling.

And as this thread is about RDM lvling, end-game (including merit parties as its end-game), the RDM shouldn't be pulling. Although 70+ a RDM probably could, as you mostly exp on VT mobs anyway.
 
Rufus_Shinra said:
Because a little extra damage, no matter how small, is still extra damage. And if you can't free nuke or MB and still do your regular duties, then your not a very good RDM at all.

RDM have the most free MP to use next to SMN. I look at Convert as giving you an extra mana pool to use if you use Convert properly.

So nuking, even for minor damage, is still damage. And you can do it without suffering in your other areas if your good. But again, if you cant nuke and do regular duties at the same time, your a shitty RDM.
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Noone said you can't personally nuke, just that its a waste of MP. Your logic is pretty useless as well. Just cause it causes more damage you should use it.. Kind of like a DD saying.. Well this WS causes more damage so I'm going to use that instead of chaining just cause it adds more damage! Know its not exactly the same thing you are saying but just because its more damage doesn't mean its a good idea to use it.
 
Uzor said:
You said yourself we're not talking end-game only. But if you want to o there, sure.

Yes, if we're talking in a merit party without a BrD (which do happen), you can pull. Hell, I've done it myself as RDM/NIN. But in a non-merit party (which you said earlier), the RDM shouldn't be pulling.

And as this thread is about RDM lvling, end-game (including merit parties as its end-game), the RDM shouldn't be pulling. Although 70+ a RDM probably could, as you mostly exp on VT mobs anyway.
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I've pulled in regular PTs too, that was just an exeptional time. I hit level 74 in that PT and the PLD hit 75. Just cuz it's a merit zone doesn't make it a full merit PT.

No reason not to do it in Boyhada Tree or Terrigan either. The statement doesn't mean you are "the puller". It just means you can pull. It is effective at any point after 51 really, unless you are fighting undead.

In no way is it exclusively for end game. If you start with a sleep 1 and then 30 seconds later up it to a sleep 2. You are beyond safe, even if you pulled it while your PT's current mob is at full health.
 
Prothall said:
/slap everone for missing this statement. What a load of crap. Sounds like a huge "not my job" statement to me. Kire is right, Hasting a lot more MP efficient for RDM to cast that magic. Although, since you can't haste people twice, once everyone is hasted- that leaves you open to do other less MP efficient things to do with mp, such as nuke.

Now I realize you might not have enough time to do that in a normal party situation with you as the only refresher. But if you are partying with a bard past 55 or a cor past 40ish, you will definitely have enough MP to main heal and nuke in the same party. Especially since cor has random deal and gives you back your vert sometimes.
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Prothall, I know you in game and consider you a friend but the "/slap" and "what a load of crap" were harsh in an uncalled for way, and its actually contradicted in the next paragraph.

I static my BLU with Isollde's RDM, and she is speaking from a PLD DRK BLU RDM WHM BLM type set up, 6 people to refresh, no COR, no BRD, no other RDM to help refresh. In this case, I agree with her that the WHM should be hasting, not her. Fitting in 1 or 2 MBs per mob when possible, not every fight, is much more realistic that trying to haste 3 people, while refreshing 6 and still getting a decent number of enfeebles on, and dispelling (this is the 50s for us.. lots of crabs).
 
True, I usually don't spend time partying with WHMs with my rdm, and usually I work out with the whm what to cast. Usually I'll end up hasting the DDs and whm can haste tank.

I also don't really expect anyone to take anything like /slap or whatever seriously.
 
No worries, just wanted to explain the context of where that came from, and while I know you, she doesn't. Didn't want her to feel attacked ^^
 
Bigboy said:
I've pulled in regular PTs too, that was just an exeptional time. I hit level 74 in that PT and the PLD hit 75. Just cuz it's a merit zone doesn't make it a full merit PT.

No reason not to do it in Boyhada Tree or Terrigan either. The statement doesn't mean you are "the puller". It just means you can pull. It is effective at any point after 51 really, unless you are fighting undead.

In no way is it exclusively for end game. If you start with a sleep 1 and then 30 seconds later up it to a sleep 2. You are beyond safe, even if you pulled it while your PT's current mob is at full health.
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You still should not pull. It endangers the party and adds nothing to the party situation itself. While yes, you get another mob to camp, but so what? The normal puller can still go pull another mob, instead of you pulling it and possibly endangering the party.

And I never said its automatically a merit party if its a merit zone. What I said was, that unless its a merit party, or possibly a 70+ party, the RDM should not pull.
 
I have a genius idea!

WHM heals and uses -na spells
BLM nuke and MB
RDM does all that plus everything else.

Problem solved.
 
Beka said:
Prothall, I know you in game and consider you a friend but the "/slap" and "what a load of crap" were harsh in an uncalled for way, and its actually contradicted in the next paragraph.

I static my BLU with Isollde's RDM, and she is speaking from a PLD DRK BLU RDM WHM BLM type set up, 6 people to refresh, no COR, no BRD, no other RDM to help refresh. In this case, I agree with her that the WHM should be hasting, not her. Fitting in 1 or 2 MBs per mob when possible, not every fight, is much more realistic that trying to haste 3 people, while refreshing 6 and still getting a decent number of enfeebles on, and dispelling (this is the 50s for us.. lots of crabs).
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Beka- thanks for the defense but i didn't really feel attacked, his opinion , and my opinion.. nbd. ^.^

and Prothall - never really had the chance to party witha brd or cor at high level yet. if that were the case, it'd be a different party situation where something would be worked out. if i'm the only one in the partty with haste, and the brd/cor is also helping with refresh i would see know problem taking on that responsiblity in a party.

And an edit to my earlier post: Rdm's main healing.. >.>... i personally don't like it. and will usually refuse a party unless they have a main healer. lots of reasons, i'm not gonna get into atm... but it bugs me that everyone seems to think that because you're a mage you main heal.. esp. RDM.. i can deal with an emergency cure here and there, or if there is just no one to main heal seeking at the time and 2 rdm's i don't mind splitting up the job of keeping the party alive. but to just assume that you'll have the rdm heal... urks the living crap out of me,... >.<.. just my opinion on the subject..
 
I understand that a lot of RDMs feel that way, since they like doing the normal party stuff. I really don't mind main healing, as long as there is another refresh job such as bard or cor. Because if there isn't i WILL run out of MP unless the NIN is awesome.
 
Prothall said:
I understand that a lot of RDMs feel that way, since they like doing the normal party stuff. I really don't mind main healing, as long as there is another refresh job such as bard or cor. Because if there isn't i WILL run out of MP unless the NIN is awesome.
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I suppose it's just a matter of prefference.. i know a couple RDM's that don't mind main healing. I'm just shitty at it >.> that's why my whm will be forever sitting at lvl 14. I don't want the responsibility of any party member possibley dying because i suck at main healing :P lol..

had abad experience once in Western Altepa because the party leader assured me up and down that wouldn't need to really "heal" anyone since everyone except myself and the blm was /nin... then he goes and pulls an ant person.. i get silenced, 'course.. lol.. all the /nin's that i was surred i wouldn't have to heal, wiped.. along with me and the blm! ._. my first and last time attempting to main heal a party.. >.<
 
I don't mind main healing for a party under most circumstances. As long as the tank is decent I don't have a problem main healing for nin or pld. It probably helps that I have whm at 75 so I feel quite comfortable in that position.
 
Yeah, once you get used to watching the log and people's HP at the same time. If you color code your log messages and use the right filters it isn't too bad. Sometimes I even filter out "actions started by party" or /blist someone for the party if they have annoying macros.

Mainly I just heal people once their hp hits in the yellow, since the color change usually catches my attention.

The only think i don't like about rdm is you have to watch the log and HP so much, it feels more like a text adventure sometimes.
 
Isollde said:
~A few nice posts~
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Sorry to crop you but you said a lot worth mentioning... as did Proth >.>;

Prothall first:
Whm's have very little to do in a PT.
With a Paladin: Regen III, assorted Cures.
With a Ninja: Flash between shadows, assorted cures.

Rdm have
With a Paladin: Para, Slow, Gravity, Poison II, Blind, Bio II, Refresh 3-4 people, assorted cures, MB's.
With a Ninja: Gravity, Dia II, Refresh 2-4 people, assorted cures, MB's.

Now see why people say Whm should haste? With pld they toss out two or three more hastes (DD's) and Ninja three to four hastes... or they stick to two to three and Rdm(since most debuffs are covered) can cover another haste or two.

Whm's do little enough, I don't mind hasting a full PT if I have a good refresh going and little cure bombing. Now with Smn I 100000% agree.

And Isollde I agree 100% with hating main heal and until 65 I straight up turned down PT's asking me to main heal, I mean (people will hate this but) not like I will lfp long anyhow XD (sorry) Now though I've taken Whm to 75, gotten a few merits and love it, so going back to main heal on Rdm is pretty crappy since no Regen II/III, Cure V, and loss of Elemental Seal/Conserve MP/Aspir/Drain... Plus as I just said I have a 75whm >.> but lately I take any invite.. and each time I have made AMAZING exp per hour such as 2.5k or even 4k!!! ... /wrists.. different discussion, but Iso I agree 100% on not liking main heal but if we are doing it, then hastes are very unlikely unless a brd is present simply because we still have to debuff + cure + haste tank.. while not HARD, it makes it stressful
 
Prothall said:
Yeah, once you get used to watching the log and people's HP at the same time. If you color code your log messages and use the right filters it isn't too bad. Sometimes I even filter out "actions started by party" or /blist someone for the party if they have annoying macros.

Mainly I just heal people once their hp hits in the yellow, since the color change usually catches my attention.
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Well, as it stand right now I have "party attacks.." filters on. all i see if when someone is hit, or someone in the party or mob starts casting something. Since we have been fighting crabs in kuftal tunnel and boyhda(sp?) tree
i wasn't able to see when to Dispel with everyone damage being delt scrolling up my screen.

Prothall said:
The only think i don't like about rdm is you have to watch the log and HP so much, it feels more like a text adventure sometimes.
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And yeah.. it really does sometimes... if i get a chance to burst a skillchain, or nuke some, I got all sorta of excited! =^.^= :nyam: :nyam: :biggrin:
 
yeah i filtered damage taken by party. I watch the HP generally, so i don't need to really know when they are taking damage. Maybe for a bad nin, i'll turn it on.

Also as far as windy's comment on the /blm uber abilities.. I do sometimes sub blm or brd even when main healing. Situational of course, but the only times i sub whm is if i know i'm gonna need to status cure. Curagas are nice, but I find conserve MP drain and aspir to save more MP than a curaga.
 
Prothall said:
Also as far as windy's comment on the /blm uber abilities.. I do sometimes sub blm or brd even when main healing. Situational of course, but the only times i sub whm is if i know i'm gonna need to status cure. Curagas are nice, but I find conserve MP drain and aspir to save more MP than a curaga.
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100000000% agree'd except.. I'm in Mount Zhayolm.. No Barfira = dead pt. :/ Plus general -na's may be needed for PT's, erase for Pld's too.
 
With enoph filters, watching logs is not hard.

+magic Acc gear (namly wise gear) is pointless, as you sacirice enfeebling skill or mnd/int to use them. And lose MP.

Nuking has lots of usefulness, just not in a Merit party.

I can have 1065 HP, 1064 MP as mithra, but my int/mnd would only be 20-25 each, Usuly I only use this setup for dynamis and limbus where resists are non-exsistance. usualy sit around 988 with mnd gear.

RDM can main heal merit party just fine, RDM need good healing skills as much as whm for end game stuff.

And in merit party as solo healer (with bard) I usualy have to cut down on hastes and enfeebles to allow convert timer to hit 0. but in exp partys I never had problems, and would MB 2 out of every 3 mobs and still have MP when convert is up. Where I would add a few nukes and convert.

I loved to chainspell nuke MB 3 times on a mob that would level me :p

Oh, and wise gear is gimp, I feal sarry for rdms that use it, as it looks awful also.
 
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