the new tank

[Taurothar]

I don't think it was stated it was the highest enmity gaining spell, just that it has no decay.

I'll restate for clarity: one of the highest non damaging spells.

 

[hellstorm]

Just throwing it out there because I didn't see it said. I was reading up on some testing for hate levels of spells a while back. Apparently dispel is one of the highest hate spells and it has no actually enmity depletion, as in it does not wear off over time. I don't mean to bring back the RDM can tank discussion, but saying they have NO hate tools is bullshit.

yay someone caught the 33+ comment (dispel 32 + phalanx 33)

In regards to RDM, what it seriously lacks at the moment is *fast* hate generation. It's good for long term hate generation such as HNMs, but it doesn't have sufficiently fast hate generation for most - much much *shorter* - fights. Could also use a bit of a boost to survivability and non sub-dependent damage mitigation. Blink and Stoneskin have a bit too long cast/recast (and too limited effect) to qualify.

Well not many gear up for tanking, but rdm get a pretty decent enmity set, and us getting hate would be no different then a nin/drk or pld/rdm. Especially if the rdm came rdm/pld(higher lvls) or rdm/war(lower lvls) some low lvl -dmg gear or better balance gear that has int/mnd and vit/def would be nice ,and wont need sub traits.

RDM soloing is more outlasting than actually killing. They can solo, but they're very heavily dependent on utsusemi to do so and it takes forever because they're damage output is so small.

Just because one or two people have the insane level of gear/dedication to do things that everyone else wouldn't be able to do, does not indicate that SE is going to adjust the job based on those exceptions.

Anything can tank at low levels; so trying to make a really low level JA is pointless because all you need is provoke. Cythe used to tank on his WHM through the low level camps; because all of the "tanking jobs" sucked so bad that there was no difference.

I would disagree a rdm/war can handle itself just as well as well maybe not higher lvls like it++, though most use shadows at that lvl anyway.

No. The reason they have Divine skill is because Dia used to be divine, then they changed it to enfeebling and didn't remove the skill from Red Mages.

rdm had flash as well

I have to wonder

Do you know what Healing Breath is?

An increase in the threshold for it's activation would result in very little need for better defense equipment on EXP mobs.

Also(/), you don't (b) need mp (r) to use it (d.)

Lets see if you can find the hidden message.

not exactly, drg still uses mp just low lvl spells, also doing so you have to sub a mage sub which means. Survey says No hate gaining tools. Not to mention, no way to to refresh there mp or a wonderful ability known as convert.

You do realize you're sounding like a big hypocrite right? "rud maeg caen tenk, but dargoon ca'nt becaz I sed so!"

Also, to point something else out.

Ventriloquy? It's gotta suck when I know more about your job than you :/

No I believe I said they was in the same boat as rdm in the armor section. However difference is rdm can cure when they need it, unlike drg which is a little unpredictable as skaw even said. RDM gets spells like phalanx, stoneskin, and hate gaining spells sleep, bind, dispels. As well as other spells slow, paralyze, silence which can help rdm survive longer. Also if rdm was the tank then there would need to be a brd,cor for refresh purposes. So who ever said "won't be able to keep refresh cycle and tank is right." However like Vilurum it be much easier if there was another spell similar to stoneskin or some other dmg migration would help greatly.

 

[Arctyrael]

hmmm look what my thread have done , maybe i shouldn't bring this out if ppl keep on argue and flames like kids ld:

No offense but when you post a topic like this you have to expect what just happened. Most of us have the ability to stay on topic and discuss; most.

Yea, I got a few reported posts, and actually ended up reading the full topic. I ended up giving about 4 "no-no's" I think. People have shown you can be civil w/out directly telling someone to "shut the fuck up."

 

[Xalioniaf]

No I believe I said they was in the same boat as rdm in the armor section. However difference is rdm can cure when they need it, unlike drg which is a little unpredictable as skaw even said. RDM gets spells like phalanx, stoneskin, and hate gaining spells sleep, bind, dispels. As well as other spells slow, paralyze, silence which can help rdm survive longer. Also if rdm was the tank then there would need to be a brd,cor for refresh purposes. So who ever said "won't be able to keep refresh cycle and tank is right." However like Vilurum it be much easier if there was another spell similar to stoneskin or some other dmg migration would help greatly.

Except that they're just that. Spells. Prone to interruption (especially longer cast time spells like blink and stoneskin) and not necessarily reliable when you're being hit.

 

[Sharpe]

not exactly, drg still uses mp just low lvl spells, also doing so you have to sub a mage sub which means. Survey says No hate gaining tools. Not to mention, no way to to refresh there mp or a wonderful ability known as convert.

Or they could sub brd and requiem.

Edit - Or PLD (Auto Refresh), or NIN

 

[Bajaratt]

Well not many gear up for tanking, but rdm get a pretty decent enmity set, and use getting hate would be no different then a nin/drk or pld/rdm. Especially if the rdm came rdm/pld(higher lvls) or rdm/war(lower lvls) some low lvl -dmg gear or better balance gear that has int/mnd and vit/def would be nice ,and wont need sub traits.

RDM would have a crappy gear selection for tanking, the only options being things that are almost all-jobs like a scorpion harness

I would disagree a rdm/war can handle itself just as well as well maybe not higher lvls like it++, though most use shadows at that lvl anyway.

No, they don't. /NIN is the only sub that's being used to solo anything above farming, and the huge loss to survivability is not worth the minor increase to your already pathetic damage.

You also don't see RDM/WAR tanking HNM's unless the leader of the group fighting the HNM is an idiot. Being able to "tank" something that dies in 10 seconds isn't really tanking; step up to the big leagues or

not exactly, drg still uses mp just low lvl spells, also doing so you have to sub a mage sub which means. Survey says No hate gaining tools. Not to mention, no way to to refresh there mp or a wonderful ability known as convert.

Similar to red mage, spamming Dispel wouldn't be enough to hold hate when you have anyone doing damage on the mob. You still have nothing to effectively hold hate, if you rely on spells you'll blow through your MP really fast so you wouldn't last in a sustained fight.

No I believe I said they was in the same boat as rdm in the armor section. However difference is rdm can cure when they need it, unlike drg which is a little unpredictable as skaw even said. RDM gets spells like phalanx, stoneskin, and hate gaining spells sleep, bind, dispels. As well as other spells slow, paralyze, silence which can help rdm survive longer. Also if rdm was the tank then there would need to be a brd,cor for refresh purposes. So who ever said "won't be able to keep refresh cycle and tank is right." However like Vilurum it be much easier if there was another spell similar to stoneskin or some other dmg migration would help greatly.

Stop trying to make RDM the uber-job. They're worthless tanks right now due to their lack of effective hate tools(spamming dispel wouldn't work) and they have no effective gear for tanking that other jobs wouldn't put to 10x better use. The only way for RDM to be an effective tank is to completely change the job and ignore every shred of lore from previous FF games about what a red mage is. You want a job so broken that it might as well be the only job in the entire game, since you think it's on par with everything else at doing anything else.

You think RDM are good meleers, despite how obvious their melee abilities blow; now you think they're good tanks, but only if you completely overhaul the job to the point where you might as well have just made a new one, because it's nothing like RDM anymore. RDM can't excel at everything, go cry yourself to sleep and get over it already and go level another job if you want to melee or tank.

 

[Shaedia]

kotsu....

It's obvious that it's gonna be a Hexa-Savage party. 3xWhm, 3xRdm. Savage-Hexa = Light. 6x Burst. Whm/nin is the tank using Flash. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Viva la white mage revolution!

i'm only quoting cause i love your sig. buah ha ha.

 

[Skaw]

not exactly, drg still uses mp just low lvl spells, also doing so you have to sub a mage sub which means. Survey says No hate gaining tools. Not to mention, no way to to refresh there mp or a wonderful ability known as convert.

Hahahahahaha

I fucking spelled it out and you still missed it.

Or they could sub brd and requiem.

Edit - Or PLD (Auto Refresh), or NIN

Blue Mage would be the ultimate option. Tons of cheap spells. The ability to set spells to give you more MP, and access to Cocoon. Which is a great spell, since it isn't based off Blue Magic skill. The only thing you'd have to combat is interrupts. But Foot Kick shouldn't be interrupted, unless you're an idiot, or incredibly unlucky.

The only problem with /BRD is you're in an even lower threshold, but a little boost to a stat and nonreliance on mp or interrupts is a pretty great alternative at the lower levels atleast.

 

[Helius]

I honestly feel PLD will get their own 'provoke' ability. Dunno what they would call it, but PLD to me is the full time end game and pre-endgame tanking job. Since the description of it is fully that of "put other before me, sacrifice myself, take the blows" it's built to be hit repeatedly, so if it's not PLD, that job has just become pointless.

WAR is a and always will be a DD class.

NIN is more of a support job.

SAM is DD

DRG is DD/whatever

MNK is DD

RDM is party support

BLU is DD backup

I know I'm not accurate on a few of those since I don't really keep tabs on them. I was just thinking of jobs that would remotely be able to tank.

 

[Sharpe]

NIN is more of a support job.

Are you playing the same game as me?

 

[Lanien]

Are you playing the same game as me?

I think he means subjob rather than support job. Even that isn't entirely true, but then again, everyone and their mother subs NIN at 75

 

[pchan]

RDM is party support

BLU is DD backup

That's how people play them, true. But those two jobs are more than that. RDM can make a decent nuker with appropriate gear. BLU/whm is an excellent healer also, with appropriate gear.

 

[Helius]

I think he means subjob rather than support job. Even that isn't entirely true, but then again, everyone and their mother subs NIN at 75

I did.

DRK used to
RDM,WAR,THF,RNG(sometimes),DNC,BLU(sometimes) all usually /NIN

 

[Lukas]

I think DNC would make a better support tank, only because it takes a while for them to build up their enmity tools (TP for curing, FMs for Animated Flourish, not to mention people need to take damage for you to cure them).

As for RDM tanking... I agree that in order for a RDM to either tank or melee effectively, it would take a major overhaul of the job, and then it wouldn't be RDM anymore. I don't see the point of making it capable of filling every role with the same degree of competence as other jobs. That sounds well... kind of broken.

 

[Caerloc]

I've never seen anyone pull hate with dispel, even when spamming it; where was this report on spell enmity?

It just takes a little while. Luckily dispel has close to no recast. But you dont have to stick to just dispel anyways. Can use blind, bind, sleep and sleep II, you know, sorta like a Nin/drk does.
They are cheapers spells to, so even better.

 

[hellstorm]

RDM would have a crappy gear selection for tanking, the only options being things that are almost all-jobs like a scorpion harness


No, they don't. /NIN is the only sub that's being used to solo anything above farming, and the huge loss to survivability is not worth the minor increase to your already pathetic damage.

You also don't see RDM/WAR tanking HNM's unless the leader of the group fighting the HNM is an idiot. Being able to "tank" something that dies in 10 seconds isn't really tanking; step up to the big leagues or


Similar to red mage, spamming Dispel wouldn't be enough to hold hate when you have anyone doing damage on the mob. You still have nothing to effectively hold hate, if you rely on spells you'll blow through your MP really fast so you wouldn't last in a sustained fight.


Stop trying to make RDM the uber-job. They're worthless tanks right now due to their lack of effective hate tools(spamming dispel wouldn't work) and they have no effective gear for tanking that other jobs wouldn't put to 10x better use. The only way for RDM to be an effective tank is to completely change the job and ignore every shred of lore from previous FF games about what a red mage is. You want a job so broken that it might as well be the only job in the entire game, since you think it's on par with everything else at doing anything else.

You think RDM are good meleers, despite how obvious their melee abilities blow; now you think they're good tanks, but only if you completely overhaul the job to the point where you might as well have just made a new one, because it's nothing like RDM anymore. RDM can't excel at everything, go cry yourself to sleep and get over it already and go level another job if you want to melee or tank.

I have said over and over again that rdm is not on par for dd or tank. I said that they have ability to do them, never that they are the best or should be your first option. The open post who do you think the new tank could be. You mention some good ones with mnk and sam, but miss the fact that with simple changes rdm could be a great tank as well. War can be tank now, but normally are not due to the current gear is not really set up for it. Same could be said for rdm and sam if they was to gear towards tank they would most likely be good at it. I repeat again because you seem to twist it every time I post NOT THE BEST.

 

[Bajaratt]

I have said over and over again that rdm is not on par for dd or tank. I said that they have ability to do them, never that they are the best or should be your first option. The open post who do you think the new tank could be. You mention some good ones with mnk and sam, but miss the fact that with simple changes rdm could be a great tank as well. War can be tank now, but normally are not due to the current gear is not really set up for it. Same could be said for rdm and sam if they was to gear towards tank they would most likely be good at it. I repeat again because you seem to twist it every time I post NOT THE BEST.

No, but you said they could be with the right changes; otherwise if they're not going to be nearly as good, there's no reason to actually give them tanking features. Your entire reasoning of why RDM might be a good tank is dependent on making big changes to the job; give it hate gaining abilities, give it hate gaining spells, give it better gear for tanking. If you have to make that many changes to make it a decent tank: the job can't tank. Get over it, RDM is not the uber-job that can do everything well; accept your role as a support job and stop trying to PUSH to move up to the front lines. The job change function is there for a reason, use it.

Warrior can tank just fine now; the only reason most people don't use them is because most warriors are retards who "unlearned" provoke. Their gear options are fine, since they get most of the gear that both PLD and NIN wears for tanking, on top of their relic/AF which has some nice enmity on it.

 

[Excim]

The basic theme I'm seeing repeated in this thread, like any other tank discussion thread, is that *just about* any job can tank... when geared/subbed right and the monsters are appropriate. Which, I can totally agree with. There is so much unused equipment laying around which could effectively enhance a Warrior or Monk to decent tanking status, hell, even Samurai really. But they go unused, because until now, there were always PLD's and NIN's lying around waiting to be snatched up for parties, so they just stacked as much DD gear on since other jobs were available for the role.

Well, things have changed, since bringing WHM and MNK up through the ranks recently, I have only partied with a NIN or PLD maybe twice each, the rest of the times we improvised a tank, relying heavily on Dancer/Ninja jobs and Warriors who we had to FORCE to trade hate between each other. It wasn't always pretty, but the jobs got done. And I gotta say, the best tank I've seen so far has been a SAM/WAR slashing his way through our mobs in Garliage. The dude held hate, and did some great DD'ing to boot. And we easily kept him alive, so there ARE alternative tanks available, it really has to do with the gearing of the job. The Samurai mentioned above was asked to tank before the party started, and happened to have some heavy armour availale, along with VIT+ rings and a few other goodies to help with the job role. All it took was a leap of faith by the other party members to give it a shot.


That being said, I would love for SE to create another tank job alternative, one that belongs in that role. What it could be, I have no clue, so by all means speculate on. That's most of the fun, right?



And in response to the whole "RDM can tank if... etc" discussion: You can transform most any job by simply giving them one more job ability. Saying "RDM could tank if they had this or that" is a completely viable arguement, obviously, as that arguement could hold water with most other jobs as well.

But Red Mage is still a Mage, and in keeping with the themes set by Final Fantasy, should never assume a tanking role. As in what Baj said, if you change the job that much to allow it to tank, it is no longer a Red Mage by SE's standards. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Itachiii]

I think what SE is trying to do or at least I'm hoping, is that they want to give one of the less favored jobs a chance to be in the spotlight. So RDM is most likely not on their list. Also what ever happened to the abilities SE said they were going to add, like some sort of WAR countering ability and NINs sneak spell. Depending on what they do with the countering ability for WAR, assuming they even add this can make them better tanks than they are now. But this would totally go against what I first said but it is SE so anyones guess is as good as mine.

 

[Lavi]

My main problem with WAR tanking was it required more support than other options. Meat tanking required more MP consumption than a PLD. Blink tanking requires a secondary tank or the addition of a BRD while NIN can do so very well with just a haste and minor curing. If the additions will add enough defensive capabilities to maintain shadows between recast, I would be less opposed or even enticed to solo tanking, but I doubt it will change much at all really.