the new tank

[Itachiii]

Just read what it said in the other thread about WAR taking damage then countering so that rules out a way for WARs to get Ichi up without being interrupted. Something like this would make WAR/MNK tanking mandys at low lvls even sexier now but how many WARs are actually smart enough to sub MNK until later on when the other subs shined.

 

[Bajaratt]

My main problem with WAR tanking was it required more support than other options. Meat tanking required more MP consumption than a PLD. Blink tanking requires a secondary tank or the addition of a BRD while NIN can do so very well with just a haste and minor curing. If the additions will add enough defensive capabilities to maintain shadows between recast, I would be less opposed or even enticed to solo tanking, but I doubt it will change much at all really.

They don't require that much more support than a ninja or a pld would, really. They can wear every almost ever haste piece(boots is the only exception and they have their own) that a ninja can; so with the same songs you'd be giving a NIN, they can keep up their shadows with the same amount of ease a ninja could. The timers would be the same or at the very most only slightly worse(1 second, maybe 2 seconds at the most), so blink tanking really isn't that much different than with a NIN. They get massive amounts of enmity gear from their relic/AF, so they can compensate in other places because they get a large chunk of enmity on their armor. Unless your mages really suck, you'll be getting haste/march, along with slow and elegy on the mob; which is usually more than enough to maintain shadows.

Plus there's the extra benefit of being able to wear most of the armor a PLD can, when you do get hit without shadows, you can actually take the blow much better than a ninja can. You also have the benefit of the tank being a capable damage dealer, just like a ninja can, but with more versatile placement on the skillchain chart in case you need them to participate in a skillchain. The only real advantages that NIN's have over WAR's is that Utsusemi: NI gives them 4 shadows instead of just 3 and NIN's can get a little more -% physical damage due to the arhat's set; but that really wouldn't be enough to keep a competent warrior from being able to tank effectively.

In the really big fights you'd have a couple tanks anyways, so saying that it'd be a drawback for them to need a supporting tank is really untrue, when even the "real tanks" would have backups in those fights.

 

[Morari]

(Okay yeah, I'm an idiot.) *Hits delete*

 

[Tomasello]

After reading this topic I asked a pld/war friend of mine to go to ronafure with me on rdm and see if I could take hate from him and if I could keep it. With in about 90-120 secs not only did I have hate, no matter what he did he could not take it back from me. All I was doing was spamming Barfire > Barwater > Barthunder. Tossing in a dispel or blind every once in a while. And with just refresh on because the mp cost of these spells is so low, I can basically do it forever. To give you an idea, 6 Bar spells = 1 provoke.

I'm not saying that makes me a tank, obviously with no hate spike spells in my arsenal any type of fight this could be useful in would have to be semi-long in duration. Except maybe Cure IV. Not to mention time taken away for Utsusemi etc. But I think this says alot on how broken the hate system is in this game when a rdm can make a pld look like a fool in enmity generation.

 

[Lavi]

They don't require that much more support than a ninja or a pld would, really. They can wear every almost ever haste piece(boots is the only exception and they have their own) that a ninja can; so with the same songs you'd be giving a NIN, they can keep up their shadows with the same amount of ease a ninja could. The timers would be the same or at the very most only slightly worse(1 second, maybe 2 seconds at the most), so blink tanking really isn't that much different than with a NIN. They get massive amounts of enmity gear from their relic/AF, so they can compensate in other places because they get a large chunk of enmity on their armor. Unless your mages really suck, you'll be getting haste/march, along with slow and elegy on the mob; which is usually more than enough to maintain shadows.

Plus there's the extra benefit of being able to wear most of the armor a PLD can, when you do get hit without shadows, you can actually take the blow much better than a ninja can. You also have the benefit of the tank being a capable damage dealer, just like a ninja can, but with more versatile placement on the skillchain chart in case you need them to participate in a skillchain. The only real advantages that NIN's have over WAR's is that Utsusemi: NI gives them 4 shadows instead of just 3 and NIN's can get a little more -% physical damage due to the arhat's set; but that really wouldn't be enough to keep a competent warrior from being able to tank effectively.

In the really big fights you'd have a couple tanks anyways, so saying that it'd be a drawback for them to need a supporting tank is really untrue, when even the "real tanks" would have backups in those fights.

I was thinking mostly from a party setup where hate is fixated on the WAR a majority of the time. In large events, you'd need a good support group for any tank regardless.

Meat tanking: PLD vs. WAR.
WAR simply just doesn't have the hate tools a PLD does. If you sacrifice damage for defense or enmity, you lose out on the main and best hate tool we do have. If you go for damage, you take far more damage and require far more curing. It can be done, but the result is just a weaker PLD rather than a different type of tank job.

Blink tanking: NIN vs. WAR.
You're correct that haste builts are almost parrallel, but NIN have a much higher base evasion than a WAR. Now, I do know that evasion becomes less and less useful at 75, my NIN is that high and I don't have any +eva, but I have plenty of -eva. However, I still evade, but my WAR on the other hand, does not. I can not evade exceptionally well, but often just enough to keep shadows up. Normally, that's not an issue in a cannon, but lately cannons have been really... dumb. But you also have to admit, in a cannon, every DD is a tank at one point or at least should be willing to be if they want to be a cannon.

 

[hellstorm]

No, but you said they could be with the right changes; otherwise if they're not going to be nearly as good, there's no reason to actually give them tanking features. Your entire reasoning of why RDM might be a good tank is dependent on making big changes to the job; give it hate gaining abilities, give it hate gaining spells, give it better gear for tanking. If you have to make that many changes to make it a decent tank: the job can't tank. Get over it, RDM is not the uber-job that can do everything well; accept your role as a support job and stop trying to PUSH to move up to the front lines. The job change function is there for a reason, use it.

Warrior can tank just fine now; the only reason most people don't use them is because most warriors are retards who "unlearned" provoke. Their gear options are fine, since they get most of the gear that both PLD and NIN wears for tanking, on top of their relic/AF which has some nice enmity on it.

Pld and ninja are always going to be the best tanks, though what we are looking for are jobs that can take the place of those 2 jobs if there are none available. Rdm is not that far off the mark as you make them out to be. We have hate gaining spells, dispel is 25 mp, bind 8 mp, blind 5 mp, sleep 19 mp and of course cures which all give decent amount of hate. Now if they sub war for provoke rdm could keep hate decently especially if they wore +enm gear. (and yes they do get + enm gear) The gear we get is decent, may not as good as pld or war gear, though until af they are pretty close. Rdm get more mp then pld, use spells like ninja add in provoke and you get a decent tank.[edit: also don't forget convert] Though just like you said with war none tries with rdm. No rdm tries to gear for def instead of potency. No rdm tries /war instead of /whm. Reason like this is why we only have 2 tanks not the 3-5 tanks options, which there should be.

 

[Excim]

RDM has an incredibly low defense base, and rightly so, since they are a mage. Trying to straight tank with /WAR would be suicide, and I have seen it attempted before. The armour choices for RDM are better than say... a BLM, but not nearly good enough to tank in, even with Defender.

 

[hellstorm]

RDM has an incredibly low defense base, and rightly so, since they are a mage. Trying to straight tank with /WAR would be suicide, and I have seen it attempted before. The armour choices for RDM are better than say... a BLM, but not nearly good enough to tank in, even with Defender.

sigh guess im going have do do some comparing of gear for you.
ok ill do bodys because they so the most improvement.

at 29 war/pld wear

at 30 nin wear

30 rdm get

40 nin wear

40 war/pld/nin

I can keep going on up the list, the def on them are not that different.

 

[Skaw]

You've gotta be fucking shitting me. 4-5 defense at 75 is considerably nothing, but at 40, it's actually a fucking lot.

 

[Neisan]

Wtf is C.C. Cloak doing IN this discussion?! You're seriously missing something if you think C.C. Cloak of all things should be discussed for anything but nuking in because you can't wear Seer's (read: Rdms). You're ignoring you're trying to blood tank like a Pld with a F shield rating... And way to go to focus on one piece of gear and ignore the cumulative effect of stacking all the pieces on at once. Add up total defense/stats from Kampf and compare it to centurion's. Wait, I'll do it for you.


Kampf Set

Defense +76
Vitality +7
Agility +7


Versus:


Centurion's Set

Defense +66
Vitality +1
Dexterity +2
Agility +3

Are we noticing a huge difference yet? And this is starting at level 30, Not to mention Paladin actually getting the good shields with a skill rating to back it up. As for Nin, don't even try to pretend blink can match even Utsi: Ichi. Not to mention Nin will actually dodge hits.


If I recall correctly, All the hate generated from provoke is completely decayed in 30 seconds, so Tom's test is a moot point.


The War tanking problem could be solved by finding two equally geared equally skilled Wars subbing Nin, but that would require actually thinking while tanking.

 

[Kagemusha]

I love how you included a body piece that doesn't allow headgear for RDM's leetsauce defense. Oh, have you forgotten that tanking isn't all about VIT and DEF? You clearly have forgotten evasion for NINs and shields for PLDs, and RDM has neither of the two. They can't even equip kite shields. Just stop fucking arguing about this, and level PLD or NIN if you want to tank so damn bad.

 

[K. Ishitar]

Saying Counterstance makes MNK a bad tank is silly since it's an entirely optional JA. That's like saying Zerk makes PLD/WAR a bad tank. =P

BLU already get Cocoon, which is a rather powerful defensive spell as is. They could make rather good tanks with the right setup but I can't see many (if any) sacrificing their /NIN sub for a non-MP-based hate tool.

they'd have to tweak a few spells to give blu a bit more hate, granted head butt spam gives a nice chunk of it over time along with some blank gazes, at higher levels the defense increase from cocoon may not be enough since at higher levels def/vit don't affect damage taken as much as they do the earlier levels, not saying that it's not possible.

 

[Tristam Green]

I can keep going on up the list, the def on them are not that different.

Let's note that you "CANNOT EQUIP HEADGEAR", and the Defense rating on this is the SAME as those DD/tank bodies on which you can.

Continue your line of thought, Hellstorm. :\

 

[K. Ishitar]

I've never seen anyone pull hate with dispel, even when spamming it; where was this report on spell enmity?

no it doesn't decay like skaw said, it does actually give a nice chunk of hate on a mob, in situations where there is little damage being done a single dispel can draw monster attention.

I did this while going...rdm73/nin16(LoL) on leviathan with a rdm/blm, smn, drk/war(that got oneshotted quick)

I used dispel after i got shadows up to pull hate off of the rdm and smn for using cures on me. It's a good way to have non-degradable hate on you on a monster, other hate tools like bind and sleep would grab it quicker

Now dispel won't compare in a high damage setting really nor will bind, sleep would be better for hate(slightly better in a high damage setting but not so much) and costs slightly less iirc.

 

[Rannoch]

RDM ARE 133711!!!12123!

Shut up, You can't tank.

<3

 

[Lavi]

If Dispel hate does not degrade and from my understanding, there is a hate ceiling, wouldn't RDM hit the ceiling on long fights and no one else be able to pull hate off?

 

[Neisan]

Dying tends to -slightly- fix that.

 

[Skaw]

no it doesn't decay like skaw said

I didn't say it didn't either. I said it was stated by the person people were pulling the whole "RDMs can tank with dispel hate lol" livejournal posts from.

 

[Skaw]

Dying tends to -slightly- fix that.

And taking damage. If you read the post the person made, they were testing on things that did 0 damage. They tested to see if it didn't have natural decay, like all other actions, but you still lose hate from taking damage, irregardless of a natural decay or not.

 

[K. Ishitar]

I meant to give credit to you for saying that skaw, not saying that you didn't mean that, my bad

Lavi: According to that enmity thread about dispel tests it has a ceiling over 9 or 10(can't remember which) dispels and after that dispel won't grant more hate, but you won't really need it....Also I believe that's just your hate with dispel alone(once you 'cap it' it doesn't mean you can't get more hate), you can probrably increase it further with other magic like bind or sleep assuming you don't get hit

edit: skaw is right you still lose hate from getting hit, assuming that you're /nin and can keep shadows and ss/phalanx/bio,etc.

Rann:....I've killed that nm about 7 times(without drop=/) and I was lagged on for about 5minutes(read: I couldn't do shit) because my sister was on her myspace,facebook,etc.

Asshole...=3

edit2: also for rdm tanking...possible but not likely lol; I have little faith in many rdms out there besides neisan and a few others; if it was incorporated it'd probrably require some soloing experience assuming that there's some magic bullet for rdm to take hate and all other spells are left alone with the same recasts(need to lower stoneskin at least). There's a lot of bandwagon with rdm already it's not hard to solo on rdm it's just if it was implemented it'd be a bit before people be able to use it.

As someone said it'd be a complete overhaul of the job for something that isn't needed when other jobs can do it fairly well already for limited amounts of time(sam and i've seen good mnk/nin as well drk/sam ok as well).