The reason why rdm dont melee

[Trippyhippy]

bio is fine ... for manaburn otherwise don't use it, my 2 cents

by the way, just 20 additional damage per hit from high delay weapon is about what you get from bio in terms of damage per tick, not to mention SC are stronger with that and it also benefits lower delay weapons as well. Dia > Bio for 95% cases, believe it or not.

If you use tick damage in my manaburn party, Ill castrate you after I get a raise...

 

[Stouter]

Black mage has a B- in staff, that equates to 10 less skill at level 75 than rdm's dagger or sword, the same skill up to 50. So why don't we have the issue of blm melee? A blm is gonna just be standing there controlling their nukes for half the battle or more, why shouldn't they get in a few swings of their staff at the same time? Any melee rdm wanna support the idea of a melee blm?

The biggest problem I see with your point is that a rdm never runs out of mp if all they do is enfeeble refresh and MB. A rdm that only uses their mp for that is a waste of a party slot. I cringe at the parties with rdm and whm, especially with a ninja tank. Rdm pairs better with a smn main healing, with the rdm taking over healing allowing the smn to rest mp that they have used on party buff BP's and healing, or 70+ a damage BP and healing. Rdm works very nicely with a brd, with the rdm as main healer. Rdm that does nothing except cast 4 enfeebles, 3 refreshes, and a MB each fight is not worth having in the party slot they fill.

 

[Bluefrost]

Black mage has a B- in staff, that equates to 10 less skill at level 75 than rdm's dagger or sword, the same skill up to 50. So why don't we have the issue of blm melee? A blm is gonna just be standing there controlling their nukes for half the battle or more, why shouldn't they get in a few swings of their staff at the same time? Any melee rdm wanna support the idea of a melee blm?

Or a WHM, who has a higher club skill than a RDM's dagger or sword skill. Warrior have the same skill as a RDM in sword, B.

 

[Lavi]

You mean a Red Mage can ACTUALLY melee while casting? OMG!!!!!!

How do you GODLY people who actually do 2 things at once do it? Especially when 1 of the things your doing happens AUTOMATICALLY!!!!!!

Oh wait thats right a moron playing RedMage getting adds is a whole lot dumber than a Black mage or Melee player who's just as dumb getting adds.

Right?

Casting interrupts all attacks, so you would get very few attacks in even if you tried to melee. RDM have no +att or +acc traits. They have +mag attack traits so a smart person would go with their strengths and use it. They best way to get the most out of it is to stop meleeing and rest so you have more MP to use for spells. This is not about BLM or WHM meleeing. Everyone knows that they are not supposed to even the BLM and WHM except a small few who are quickly told to stop.

As much as I understand Lavi's elitist concept of resting one tick per battle to cast a stone 1 and do 30 damage instead of 12 meleeing for 3-4 swings a battle (remember he not only melees but casts while doing so, swapping gear, so it's not like he could rest during that time ok?), I wouldn't mind at all if the RDM pleases himself a little bit and skills up while exp-ing.

I think the BLM who skills up dark by casting Bio II (or worse, believe he does the right thing !) all the time even though you tell him we want Dia II is MUCH MORE DAMAGING than a meleeing RDM. And 50% of BLM do that even when you tell them not to 10 times (and give up...).

Also, you're right that the best RDM I've seen are Tarus (go figure) and they never ran out of MP doing their job perfectly. Tarus with reasonable equipment has exactly as much MP as HP which makes them the best exp-PT RDM (not the best soloer though for obvious reasons). Now I think that an elvaan wouldn't be able to pull the same trick, they would need to rest because they'd run out of MP before convert timer is up, that is indeed a good point which I overlooked.

Conclusion: good RDMs out there who never run out of MP doing their job perfectly can melee here and there in my PTs, but not in Lavi's because Lavi wants everyone to play exactly as she/he wants them to play to get the last digit of the exp/hr as high as it can be . That's fine with me. However I'm sure Lavi has never kicked a RDM for meleeing if he wanted to in an exp PT, since you hardly get one RDM seeking at your level when you /sea.

Its not elitist in the slightest. I want the most experience possible and I don't think thats a lot to ask since that is the reason I joined/made the party. I don't melee as WHM or BLM because I know its a waste of my time, but every RDM seems to think they are special. WHy? Because they have a sword in their hand. A BLM should be skilling up his dark magic in a party unless doing so helps the party. I skilled up my dark with drain and aspir only. I used them only when I needed to cap my HP or I could get some extra MP out of the mob. When I was a low level RDM, I did melee; however, there was no significant difference between my STR and att. than another melee. Even then, the loss in damage I made was more than made up for by en- spells. You cannot say the same thing post level 20 or compared to someone eatting proper food. You probably can't even come close at level 15 because of Berserk or other attack enhancing abilities, but at those levels most players don't even eat food, so meleeing isn't a huge issue.

Now RDM AF gives +10 parrying skill and yet I don't see any RDM running out to use it in experience parties. Thats because the only way to use parrying is by directly tanking. But you all want to argue you can melee because your gear/weapon is good for meleeing? You don't tank because you can't tank and you shouldn't melee because you can't do damage. It is just that simple. The only damage you have that is of any significance is elemental spells. To get the most out of it means you should rest more for that extra MP, that means don't melee. I don't mean use a single elemental spell especially Stone I, but something that will do significant damage like Blizzard II. The 200 Damage from that one spell is 5-10 times more damage than you will ever see from all your meleeing.

 

[decidence]

Nothin wrong with Bio II.

Dia doesen't make a noticable difference unless your melles have High delay weapons like a Scythe, Great Sword or Great Katana. Then you may see 10-20 more damage per hit at the very MOST.

Bio does tons of Tick Damage.

Playing as RNG I have seen up to 40-60 dmg difference per shot on Decroative Weapons when landing DiaII and Acid Bolts.

So it all adds up...

 

[Palum_Q]

If you're skilling up dark..why don't you just cast drain/aspir? I'd figure that won't even bother conflicting with the dia.

 

[Vandoura]

if rdm can't melee, no point having a job call "Red Mage"

Isn't clearly said that RDM is a damage dealer and Magic caster job?

SE sould call it "Green mage"

 

[Foofighter]

I admittingly have no freakin clue as to any mage jobs and what all their responsibilities are in a party(I know the basics just from so many levels of partying). So in my own experience in this matter, when a rdm melees in a party that i am in regardless of what job I am, 90% of the time the party sucks and the rdm sucks. ie that asshat Jordbatootsie or whatever. By sucks I mean that we are not continually pulling(post 40) with no rest except to go take a piss or get a drink/snack. Now, I have had a few parties where the rdm was engaged and swinging a sword and we were doing good, but it has only been when I was a ninja tank and we were killing the exp. mobs we should be and not 2-3 levels higher than we needed to.

 

[Neyla]

Its not elitist in the slightest. I want the most experience possible and I don't think thats a lot to ask since that is the reason I joined/made the party. I don't melee as WHM or BLM because I know its a waste of my time, but every RDM seems to think they are special. WHy? Because they have a sword in their hand. A BLM should be skilling up his dark magic in a party unless doing so helps the party. I skilled up my dark with drain and aspir only. I used them only when I needed to cap my HP or I could get some extra MP out of the mob. When I was a low level RDM, I did melee; however, there was no significant difference between my STR and att. than another melee. Even then, the loss in damage I made was more than made up for by en- spells. You cannot say the same thing post level 20 or compared to someone eatting proper food. You probably can't even come close at level 15 because of Berserk or other attack enhancing abilities, but at those levels most players don't even eat food, so meleeing isn't a huge issue.

Spare me your generalizations. I haven't pulled a sword out in an xp party since Qufim. Wouldn't dream of doing so. So aim your babble in the right direction instead of taking a shot at all of us, little Miss I-Left-My-Echo-Drops-With-My-Moogle.

If you keep a meleeing RDM in your party just for the Refresh, whenever they remember to cast it, you deserve whatever's coming to you, and you deserve it good and hard. If you're the meleeing RDM slacking off on your spells, I hope a fed up THF gets behind you for SATA at some point. You deserve a swift kick in the ass or a Sickle Slash to the face.

 

[Courtney]

Black mage has a B- in staff, that equates to 10 less skill at level 75 than rdm's dagger or sword, the same skill up to 50. So why don't we have the issue of blm melee? A blm is gonna just be standing there controlling their nukes for half the battle or more, why shouldn't they get in a few swings of their staff at the same time? Any melee rdm wanna support the idea of a melee blm?

Or a WHM, who has a higher club skill than a RDM's dagger or sword skill. Warrior have the same skill as a RDM in sword, B.

Of course, WARs do get access to some good swords, end even then the decent ones won't use them for damage in an exp party...

 

[Anttaru]

You can look at it any way you chose but think of it this way. With the amount of damage produced by constantly swinging(and missing), a RDM would be more beneficial to a party by casting a single MB and resting to conserve MP for future MBs.

Melee does not prevent RDM from taking part in magic burst. And doing so does not mean the RDM will need rest to continue non stop.

Just because you have the ability to refresh yourself does not mean you don't have to rest. Again, a single spell can do more damage than any amount of melee you can ever achieve.

Refresh is part of the reason. Convert is what gives RDM double the amount of their mana pool, which is the reason why Resting for RDM is not half as important as it is for a PLD, or a BLM or a SMN or a WHM. Also RDM spells are cheap in comparrison to WHM and BLM. If the RDM is burning more MP that the WHM or BLM, then there is something totally wrong. All and all the RDM who rests although effective in parties, is not ready to cast like the RDM on their feet, melee or not.


The only time RDM should cast elemental magic is for MB. Using elemental III spells more than 3 times within the given 10 minutes will break RDMs performance in so many areas, slowing down the refresh cycle to a stop until the RDM can convert, or they can rest it out. Basically if a RDM burns too much MP, the refresh cycle will not be constant. RDM also rest slow and do not regen MP fast enough, RDM is busy induring and inbetween battles. Try resting when the cycle needs to be put up, and try resting when the battle begins. Support class jobs are offset and must set their own pace.

Even PLDs rest when they have refresh and they are not mages and have a far less MP pool than a RDM.

PLD burn more MP than RDM does in level up parties, you knew that right ? healing magic gets costly, enfeebling magic is not, and neither is enhancing magic. in a level up party if the WHM PLD and RDM are all using cure magic exstensivly, then the party is not doing well at all.

You can do far greater things than melee. You can toss a cure, a haste, a magic attack spell. Anything is better than the disservice you are offering.

I do cast cure and i do Refresh and Haste cycles at the same time. Only time for RDM to cast elemental magic is enduring Magic burst, and when the convert clock is at 0 or close enough to it, i cannot do extra things for my party when my ass is on the ground. And i still melee and this happens non stop. Don't bring your made up word "disservice" to me, i do more than you do in parties lol.

You CANNOT melee and rest at the same time. Which is better choice for an experience party and will net me more experience over time? Resting.

RDM is not like WHM and BLM in terms of party relations. To rest more is also to do less. Resting too much will slow things down, and casting too much with slow things down, you know this right ?

Your melee capacity is too weak and you are just wasting each swing.

Well i can stand to the side and just cast, i do that sometimes, and i still don't rest and when i do i get all of 40 mp back, i'm too busy. I'm quick to cast dispel and refresh, i catch all the MB i can and still do a haste cycle. I can squeaze in a stoneskin and take 0 DMG from AoE. What more do you want ? more nuking ? that will slow down the refresh cycles and everything else RDM does. More rest is fine, but it won't make RDM push the party faster, or have the RDM doing extra as much.

Do you think you are the first person to think you are special by meleeing as a RDM?

No i don't think i'm the first Lavi, but i am special. Why do i think so ? Because i have to pay for the shitty RDMs foolishness. You complain about Melee, but i'm sure you had melee RDMs that don't do their tasks. For some reason this leads you to believe melee RDMs are not getting enough MP. which is funny considering they are not doing their job, the melee RDM who sucks ass has pleanty of MP, so don't even start to say i can't, cause i can and do and i get everything done without complaint. Yes i can nuke and i do, and i still melee. I trained myself not to slack off just because i can stair at my character swing away.

I do everything including melee, get assloads of exp. while at it, and the party is laughing away. I don't know how much i can stress that.

Do you think people get pissed for a reason when you do?

1/10 people in the past would get pissed where as the others don't care, today i don't have a single complaint. And there is a reason for that, would you know it ?

Could it be because you are neglecting your job?

This is your guess.

You're damn right it is.

This is your conclusive assumption. It's so off.

You have magic attack+ traits. You don't have any attack bonus or accuracy bonus do you? Your gear might allow you some but thats because SE realizes a great many RDM solo a lot.

The JSE offers a shit load of magic acc, "acc", and -enmity.With it RDM has more MP than with errant. This JSE is designed for party use no doubt, and solo, RDM has no problem hitting their target melee, even with no gear on.

A RDM has a B rating in sword and dagger skills which translates from a minimum of 8 skill levels at level 50 to 19 at level 75 compared to an A- skill which is the lowest skill level of any melee job. Thats a huge reduction in accuracy and attack. Most jobs need to use sushi and equip +acc gear just to make up for the lack of accuracy on IT mobs and RDM do not have that luxury.

Good insight

Full RDM JSE gives RDM +acc on magic and melee, also -enmity, this is made for melee RDM as well as any other RDM. 21 acc last i checked, or maybe that was the JSE with Optical hat ? either way it works like a charm for me.

What RDM does is make mobs soft, Gravity as we all know plays a role on how often we hit mobs. Why not drop an enspell since everything is running smoothly ? Of coarse i'm speaking out for RDMs that can pull off this kind of play without hurting anyone.

- Not getting distracted and letting the mages go unrefreshed
- seeing a enemy buff and removing it asap
- enfeebling magic.
- converting every 10-12 minutes for the millionth time in a row.
- gaurding themselves ( It's important for RDM to have full health for the sake parties mana.)

I can get Reverand mail for my WHM, it has +10 acc and +10 evas. I must be able to DD and tank now...

Being sarcastic dosn't change the fact that RDM can tank. WHM tank ? WHM enhancing isn't strong enough. If you want to do DMG with your club, sub RDM. Using a Kraken club with an enspell magnifys my point. with an icrus wing you can solo a light skillchain WHM.

Or perhaps because I can wear snipers, I should be able to melee. I can equip +STR rings/earrings. Heck I can equip anything most other jobs do.

Yes, but not as many things as RDM and BRD.

I can get around +20 STR at 75. For a WHM thats damn good, but does that mean I am a DD? I get +haste gear for my JSE. Ninjas love that +haste gear and buy it up like candy. Does that mean I can effectively sub ninja and tank?

Haste on a mage or magic caster will do 2 things. 1 makes your melee a little faster, and 2 It makes your casting clocks shorter, Be a good WHM and reconize the fact you can recast your spells sooner.

A single MB by a RDM will out damage any amount of meleeing they can do. Not only that, they will have more MP for the next chain and will be prepared for spells wearing or links occuring.

RDM always have MP, when a RDM does not have MP it's because there was a death defying battle, and it's time for the entire party to rest. a RDM that blows away all MP before the convert clock is at 0 cannot operate at all.

More DMG will come from the RDM if they do boath MB and Melee. RDM is not about DMG though. It's more about cutting time. Parties want Dia, a little bit more DMG, and no one ever complaines when poision II is casted either. Why worry when a RDM hits a mob for 47 DMG ? and if the RDM manages to hit the mob 3 times, and it happens enough, it can go on top of the MB... All and all RDM is not a damage dealer, if one can melee and uphold the RDM way, they are most acceptable.

Any mage that looks out for links knows where to look. For melee RDM it's as simple unlocking the camera and turning it to where you need to look. I love handeling links. Sleepaga and Sleep II are at the bottom of my spell list and can be accessed in a few quick strokes. None of this should stop the intention to Refresh, but it can cause a gap in the cycle if the timing rolls with the situation off end.

I never seen a third TP attack, or one that stalls time when battling one mob at a time. I think to even complain about it is kinda off.

I am sure you say you never run out of MP because you are a taru. Tarus are notorious for massive amounts of MP and even a taru RDM has more MP than I do as a WHM who focuses on MP only.

750MP is a good start for RDM, keep up refresh cycles and the rest will last until convert, remember, blowing away this MP too fast, and resting under this condition will delay RDMs performance. I hope you learn.

Being you are taru is all the more reason to not melee. You are too weak. Your measly 2 damage is not worth giving the mob 2 more TP.

When i play along side my hume RDM buddy, he hits for an average range of 5 DMG more than i. in parties i done 26 DMG +12/14 additional with my sword, planting 1 or 5 of those on a mob can be added onto the MB if you want to look at it that way (no doubt it's still DMG).
Best Kraken club is one with an enspell on it, i figure i'd add that in, additional DMG is more than the regular damage output.

There is no mention of a third TP attack. Its you giving the mob TP that causes the problem. A melee may give it TP every time he/she hits but the damage/TP given is sufficient to make it worthwhile to melee. The same cannot be said about you.

Mobs have their limit to how much DMG they can do, Honestly who cares of ther mob releases TP a second earlier ? RDM meleeing gives the mob the least TP, it's not even enough worth complaining about.

You're are too weak. By giving the mob more TP you allow it to spam more attacks like Bomb Tosses or Jet Stream.

You won't see more than 2 TP attacks, RDM melee or not..... If you see a 3rd TP attack, i recommend making a new party.

Because you are so set on meleeing, someone else will have to cover the curing, probably the WHM, and the end result is a lower chain.

Are you new or something ? WHM is the main healer. Don't force me to cast insaults at you. Oh, and i back up cure too, if i had a WHM like you i would definatly do less, cause i'm healing for you, and not backing you up.

I give WHM a refresh cycle, and just about all of them do a good job. That makes things more prouductive too. I can focus on other things, and be the kind of back up healer i like to be.
RDM has more important things to do than heal, and if healing is more important than enfeebling & enhancing for RDM, it's because the WHM sucks ass, or simply there is no WHM.

The sad part is you could have had more MP to further the chain but you chose to melee.

I have convert, i always have MP, (Unless i have to play for the WHM too much, the survival of the party depends on it. Most WHM's are good though) I always have MP and i cast everything, I don't just melee like you imagine.

A RDM does run out of MP. He should then use Convert. A good RDM will run out of MP at around the time recast on convert is up. That means he/she is maximizing the MP consumption to its limit, but not to the point they are no longer useful to the party.

Oh you know this ? Funny i had mentioned that to you, earlier.

I convert at 10 or 12 minutes, at times i have more leverage. Resting would extend the time when RDM actually *needs* to convert, and not resting gives the standing RDM quicker cast times. Resting dosn't mean RDM will cast more enfeebling and enhancing. And again RDM is not made to nuke like a BLM, no MP means no RDM goodies for the party, Don't forget RDM has other things to do besides nuking as i mention this.

Even one that rests (Not speaking for bad RDMs) will get up and burn away MP when they see their clock is ok.

Resting instead of meleeing would give more MP at the RDM's disposal during the time between converts. That means even if enfeebles wear, a RDM does not have to worry to much about MP consumption or can cast a few more elemental spells.

Enfeebling magic is dirt cheap, it's not like elemental magic and healing magic. What mage is worried about not having enough MP to cast enfeebling magic ?

Its also not about doing more damage. Its about doing the most damage per time. As a RDM, you can do more damage by casting elemental spells thus killing the mob faster.

-RDM is not about maximizing DMG, it's about ballancing HP and MP

-Nuke too much in one fight (tire II twice a fight will hit in 3 battles) and next time there will be no nuke.... also no enfeebling magic, no refresh cycle, it's not pretty. Unless ofcoarse the party wants to take a break.

-RDM should only use elemental magic for MB use in exp parties. Unless the convert clock is ready the RDM can then cast as hard as they can.

If you are not meleeing, you could be resting for more MP to cast more elemental spells.

It's not about meleeing, it's about standing up and resting. Yes to you it may sound very silly, but it's true. While i am up, i will cast more magic and convert earlier than if i rest. I don't mean to say resting is not plausable. It's just that i do more when i am not resting, and i have enough MP to last me from convert to convert, if the WHM sucks ass, i cannot work to make the party any faster. And i'll then rest, with no or next to nothing in terms of extra castings.

Even if you didn't want to use an elemental spell you could rest and cure during the next fight so the WHM has MP for future chains.

That is never a bad idea Lavi. But things would move quicker if i didin't do that. Remember it's the party's MP, not the RDM's MP and the WHM's MP. one force understand ?

I do use elemental spells, that is something even a resting RDM would not cast more than once during a battle. And i still melee.

Giving the mob TP means more damage to the tank or party if it uses an AoE attack, the WHM has to cure more than before, and that means less MP for further chaining. Now why would anyone who purposely seeks a party for the sole purpose of getting experience, hinder their own desire?

How much DMG the melee does on the mob in given time is random. RDM misses alot, and other melee miss too. The party is one force. The PLD misses twice = maybe the RDM managed to plant 1 hit, while the party continues to miss and hit.

Fullfilling my duties i have actually hit mobs quite alot and the AoE is unleashed on the party. within seconds the puller is off to get another mob and the WHM actually has something to do. As for i, i take 0 DMG and if it's actually worth it, i'll heal too. This goes on for hours on end non stop, am i the only one that ever sees this or something ? Now if the WHM sucks, i'd be on my ass as much as i can. To blame RDM for giving the mob extra TP is ok, but to say it effects the experience intake is silly.

I am gonna assume you are not completely retarded and have some intelligence on this.

Oh joy

Damage although random to a certain extent, is NOT completely random. If it was everyone would melee and gear would not matter. I am sure you are aware all melee focus on STR, right? They do this to increase the damage they do. To add to that, melees have higher base STR, attack and weapon skill levels than mages. Yet again, the damage they do per hit is worth the 2 TP incurred by the mob. Your crap damage even with your en- spells still does not even come close to what another melee does. Don't even kid yourself.

I hit for just a little less DMG than a Hume PLD when i plant hits. if i magnage a 500 DMG MB, it would be nicer if it was 600, So what if i melee and do 150 DMG.... And again there is nothing to complain about because enfeebling haste and refresh is done, and dispel is in the making, what is the problem ?

Now I am completely lost on your entire train of thought, but you seem to think you are making up for everyone's misses by meleeing.

No, i was just stating the randomness of hitting the mob... You countered it with "*IF* the entire party melee'd blah blah blah, which makes no sence to what is really happening. You camplain about Random hits from a weak melee class.

It doesn't work like that. You miss far too often even with your +acc gear and if you are eating +acc food, you are even more a waste of a good party slot.

Your examples are the same as your guess's, you can't tell me how much DMG i'm capable of doing with a sword can you ? With JSE at that.... And don't even bring in the +acc food, i don't eat it. Your whole picture of me is a melee RDM who does nothing... Just like the other melee RDMs you crossed who suck ass. Now you flock with your hate melee RDMs thread to hit me, lol where's your brain ?

So suddenly you take 0 damage from an AoE attack? Does this mean you actively stand in AoE range and waste MP that otherwise would not be needed had you not decided to melee on stoneskin? Or maybe phalanx too?

Bitch !?, RDM has the highest enhancing cap i breath Stoneskin like air.... I am the king of handeling links because of this...

Only AoE's i can think of that i fear is from those Gobbouie things in Boyhadatree, Tigers, and Cockatrice's. 3 mobs i can think of. Stoneskin is cheap on MP too, Phalanx i only use for solo, or occationally i would apply it in parties, but it's no good. AoE will happen once or twice if i melee or not. WHM will cast Curaga and although it does not matter since curaga is casted, i still take 0 DMG, usually i'm not needed to heal when this happens, and the WHM still has and regains a shit load of MP from the Refresh cycle that i made, and from resting.

It's important for RDM to have enough MP for convert, nothing wrong with enforcing that with Stoneskin.

Again, if you want to melee, you have three options:
1. A Skill up party. There is constantly one seeking in Lower Jueno. Every mage needs to skill up their weapons at some point. Other melees need WS points. There is an abundance of these parties and they will let you swing and miss to your heart's content.

Every mage does not need to skill up their weapons, and if i want to skill up a weapon, i go solo, and plant more hits. Don't try to give me advice on skilling up weapons, you can't solo like i.

2. Change jobs. You have many other jobs who are specifically tailored to meleeing mobs. You want to melee and be able to cast spells too? Be a PLD or DRK. No one will ever criticize you for meleeing then.

Don't forget if i had Kraken club (i miss that thing) or the 75 Excaliber.

3. Solo. No one will bother you if you are meleeing solo. You can farm or camp NMs at the same time and not just solo randomly. You even have some of the best soloing tools in the game, phalanx and stoneskin.

Not just any Stoneskin, RDM enhancing cap stoneskin. Having high enfeebling skill allows me to solo VT's too. It takes long but it can be done, don't try to tell me how to play RDM, you probably couldn't be a good one.

For the last time, an experience party is for getting experience. It is in your best interest to get the most experience in the amount of time available. You are joining a party with 5 other members and the least you can do is give them the courtesy of getting the most experience possible. If that means not meleeing, then don't melee.

I can stand to the side and play exactly the same without the melee Lavi, only difference is i'm doing less DMG.

-Resting is not bad, but dosn't give enough MP to start nuking more either.

- Resting means no haste cycle

- If a RDM is at a point where he needs alot of rest, the party will be less prouductive.

-The fact that i'm standing means fast dispel... Fast Recasts... Well joined Refresh cycle.

-The fact that i am meleeing means, More DMG ontop of the DMG i do when i go Nukular...in terms of over all DMG.

- Going Nukular for RDM more than once in a single battle is a bad idea.

-Casting elemental III spells should only be done when convert is ready, or close enough.

- I do everything else, there is no reason why i cannot melee, i'm not your RDM, and if you never seen one that can melee and do everything else, then i am really special, but i know i am not the only one who can play like this and deliver.

 

[Tymon]

You can look at it any way you chose but think of it this way. With the amount of damage produced by constantly swinging(and missing), a RDM would be more beneficial to a party by casting a single MB and resting to conserve MP for future MBs.

Melee does not prevent RDM from taking part in magic burst. And doing so does not mean the RDM will need rest to continue non stop.

Just because you have the ability to refresh yourself does not mean you don't have to rest. Again, a single spell can do more damage than any amount of melee you can ever achieve.

Refresh is part of the reason. Convert is what gives RDM double the amount of their mana pool, which is the reason why Resting for RDM is not half as important as it is for a PLD, or a BLM or a SMN or a WHM. Also RDM spells are cheap in comparrison to WHM and BLM. If the RDM is burning more MP that the WHM or BLM, then there is something totally wrong. All and all the RDM who rests although effective in parties, is not ready to cast like the RDM on their feet, melee or not.


The only time RDM should cast elemental magic is for MB. Using elemental III spells more than 3 times within the given 10 minutes will break RDMs performance in so many areas, slowing down the refresh cycle to a stop until the RDM can convert, or they can rest it out. Basically if a RDM burns too much MP, the refresh cycle will not be constant. RDM also rest slow and do not regen MP fast enough, RDM is busy induring and inbetween battles. Try resting when the cycle needs to be put up, and try resting when the battle begins. Support class jobs are offset and must set their own pace.

Even PLDs rest when they have refresh and they are not mages and have a far less MP pool than a RDM.

PLD burn more MP than RDM does in level up parties, you knew that right ? healing magic gets costly, enfeebling magic is not, and neither is enhancing magic. in a level up party if the WHM PLD and RDM are all using cure magic exstensivly, then the party is not doing well at all.

You can do far greater things than melee. You can toss a cure, a haste, a magic attack spell. Anything is better than the disservice you are offering.

I do cast cure and i do Refresh and Haste cycles at the same time. Only time for RDM to cast elemental magic is enduring Magic burst, and when the convert clock is at 0 or close enough to it, i cannot do extra things for my party when my ass is on the ground. And i still melee and this happens non stop. Don't bring your made up word "disservice" to me, i do more than you do in parties lol.

You CANNOT melee and rest at the same time. Which is better choice for an experience party and will net me more experience over time? Resting.

RDM is not like WHM and BLM in terms of party relations. To rest more is also to do less. Resting too much will slow things down, and casting too much with slow things down, you know this right ?

Your melee capacity is too weak and you are just wasting each swing.

Well i can stand to the side and just cast, i do that sometimes, and i still don't rest and when i do i get all of 40 mp back, i'm too busy. I'm quick to cast dispel and refresh, i catch all the MB i can and still do a haste cycle. I can squeaze in a stoneskin and take 0 DMG from AoE. What more do you want ? more nuking ? that will slow down the refresh cycles and everything else RDM does. More rest is fine, but it won't make RDM push the party faster, or have the RDM doing extra as much.

Do you think you are the first person to think you are special by meleeing as a RDM?

No i don't think i'm the first Lavi, but i am special. Why do i think so ? Because i have to pay for the shitty RDMs foolishness. You complain about Melee, but i'm sure you had melee RDMs that don't do their tasks. For some reason this leads you to believe melee RDMs are not getting enough MP. which is funny considering they are not doing their job, the melee RDM who sucks ass has pleanty of MP, so don't even start to say i can't, cause i can and do and i get everything done without complaint. Yes i can nuke and i do, and i still melee. I trained myself not to slack off just because i can stair at my character swing away.

I do everything including melee, get assloads of exp. while at it, and the party is laughing away. I don't know how much i can stress that.

Do you think people get pissed for a reason when you do?

1/10 people in the past would get pissed where as the others don't care, today i don't have a single complaint. And there is a reason for that, would you know it ?

Could it be because you are neglecting your job?

This is your guess.

You're damn right it is.

This is your conclusive assumption. It's so off.

You have magic attack+ traits. You don't have any attack bonus or accuracy bonus do you? Your gear might allow you some but thats because SE realizes a great many RDM solo a lot.

The JSE offers a shit load of magic acc, "acc", and -enmity.With it RDM has more MP than with errant. This JSE is designed for party use no doubt, and solo, RDM has no problem hitting their target melee, even with no gear on.

A RDM has a B rating in sword and dagger skills which translates from a minimum of 8 skill levels at level 50 to 19 at level 75 compared to an A- skill which is the lowest skill level of any melee job. Thats a huge reduction in accuracy and attack. Most jobs need to use sushi and equip +acc gear just to make up for the lack of accuracy on IT mobs and RDM do not have that luxury.

Good insight

Full RDM JSE gives RDM +acc on magic and melee, also -enmity, this is made for melee RDM as well as any other RDM. 21 acc last i checked, or maybe that was the JSE with Optical hat ? either way it works like a charm for me.

What RDM does is make mobs soft, Gravity as we all know plays a role on how often we hit mobs. Why not drop an enspell since everything is running smoothly ? Of coarse i'm speaking out for RDMs that can pull off this kind of play without hurting anyone.

- Not getting distracted and letting the mages go unrefreshed
- seeing a enemy buff and removing it asap
- enfeebling magic.
- converting every 10-12 minutes for the millionth time in a row.
- gaurding themselves ( It's important for RDM to have full health for the sake parties mana.)

I can get Reverand mail for my WHM, it has +10 acc and +10 evas. I must be able to DD and tank now...

Being sarcastic dosn't change the fact that RDM can tank. WHM tank ? WHM enhancing isn't strong enough. If you want to do DMG with your club, sub RDM. Using a Kraken club with an enspell magnifys my point. with an icrus wing you can solo a light skillchain WHM.

Or perhaps because I can wear snipers, I should be able to melee. I can equip +STR rings/earrings. Heck I can equip anything most other jobs do.

Yes, but not as many things as RDM and BRD.

I can get around +20 STR at 75. For a WHM thats damn good, but does that mean I am a DD? I get +haste gear for my JSE. Ninjas love that +haste gear and buy it up like candy. Does that mean I can effectively sub ninja and tank?

Haste on a mage or magic caster will do 2 things. 1 makes your melee a little faster, and 2 It makes your casting clocks shorter, Be a good WHM and reconize the fact you can recast your spells sooner.

A single MB by a RDM will out damage any amount of meleeing they can do. Not only that, they will have more MP for the next chain and will be prepared for spells wearing or links occuring.

RDM always have MP, when a RDM does not have MP it's because there was a death defying battle, and it's time for the entire party to rest. a RDM that blows away all MP before the convert clock is at 0 cannot operate at all.

More DMG will come from the RDM if they do boath MB and Melee. RDM is not about DMG though. It's more about cutting time. Parties want Dia, a little bit more DMG, and no one ever complaines when poision II is casted either. Why worry when a RDM hits a mob for 47 DMG ? and if the RDM manages to hit the mob 3 times, and it happens enough, it can go on top of the MB... All and all RDM is not a damage dealer, if one can melee and uphold the RDM way, they are most acceptable.

Any mage that looks out for links knows where to look. For melee RDM it's as simple unlocking the camera and turning it to where you need to look. I love handeling links. Sleepaga and Sleep II are at the bottom of my spell list and can be accessed in a few quick strokes. None of this should stop the intention to Refresh, but it can cause a gap in the cycle if the timing rolls with the situation off end.

I never seen a third TP attack, or one that stalls time when battling one mob at a time. I think to even complain about it is kinda off.

I am sure you say you never run out of MP because you are a taru. Tarus are notorious for massive amounts of MP and even a taru RDM has more MP than I do as a WHM who focuses on MP only.

750MP is a good start for RDM, keep up refresh cycles and the rest will last until convert, remember, blowing away this MP too fast, and resting under this condition will delay RDMs performance. I hope you learn.

Being you are taru is all the more reason to not melee. You are too weak. Your measly 2 damage is not worth giving the mob 2 more TP.

When i play along side my hume RDM buddy, he hits for an average range of 5 DMG more than i. in parties i done 26 DMG +12/14 additional with my sword, planting 1 or 5 of those on a mob can be added onto the MB if you want to look at it that way (no doubt it's still DMG).
Best Kraken club is one with an enspell on it, i figure i'd add that in, additional DMG is more than the regular damage output.

There is no mention of a third TP attack. Its you giving the mob TP that causes the problem. A melee may give it TP every time he/she hits but the damage/TP given is sufficient to make it worthwhile to melee. The same cannot be said about you.

Mobs have their limit to how much DMG they can do, Honestly who cares of ther mob releases TP a second earlier ? RDM meleeing gives the mob the least TP, it's not even enough worth complaining about.

You're are too weak. By giving the mob more TP you allow it to spam more attacks like Bomb Tosses or Jet Stream.

You won't see more than 2 TP attacks, RDM melee or not..... If you see a 3rd TP attack, i recommend making a new party.

Because you are so set on meleeing, someone else will have to cover the curing, probably the WHM, and the end result is a lower chain.

Are you new or something ? WHM is the main healer. Don't force me to cast insaults at you. Oh, and i back up cure too, if i had a WHM like you i would definatly do less, cause i'm healing for you, and not backing you up.

I give WHM a refresh cycle, and just about all of them do a good job. That makes things more prouductive too. I can focus on other things, and be the kind of back up healer i like to be.
RDM has more important things to do than heal, and if healing is more important than enfeebling & enhancing for RDM, it's because the WHM sucks ass, or simply there is no WHM.

The sad part is you could have had more MP to further the chain but you chose to melee.

I have convert, i always have MP, (Unless i have to play for the WHM too much, the survival of the party depends on it. Most WHM's are good though) I always have MP and i cast everything, I don't just melee like you imagine.

A RDM does run out of MP. He should then use Convert. A good RDM will run out of MP at around the time recast on convert is up. That means he/she is maximizing the MP consumption to its limit, but not to the point they are no longer useful to the party.

Oh you know this ? Funny i had mentioned that to you, earlier.

I convert at 10 or 12 minutes, at times i have more leverage. Resting would extend the time when RDM actually *needs* to convert, and not resting gives the standing RDM quicker cast times. Resting dosn't mean RDM will cast more enfeebling and enhancing. And again RDM is not made to nuke like a BLM, no MP means no RDM goodies for the party, Don't forget RDM has other things to do besides nuking as i mention this.

Even one that rests (Not speaking for bad RDMs) will get up and burn away MP when they see their clock is ok.

Resting instead of meleeing would give more MP at the RDM's disposal during the time between converts. That means even if enfeebles wear, a RDM does not have to worry to much about MP consumption or can cast a few more elemental spells.

Enfeebling magic is dirt cheap, it's not like elemental magic and healing magic. What mage is worried about not having enough MP to cast enfeebling magic ?

Its also not about doing more damage. Its about doing the most damage per time. As a RDM, you can do more damage by casting elemental spells thus killing the mob faster.

-RDM is not about maximizing DMG, it's about ballancing HP and MP

-Nuke too much in one fight (tire II twice a fight will hit in 3 battles) and next time there will be no nuke.... also no enfeebling magic, no refresh cycle, it's not pretty. Unless ofcoarse the party wants to take a break.

-RDM should only use elemental magic for MB use in exp parties. Unless the convert clock is ready the RDM can then cast as hard as they can.

If you are not meleeing, you could be resting for more MP to cast more elemental spells.

It's not about meleeing, it's about standing up and resting. Yes to you it may sound very silly, but it's true. While i am up, i will cast more magic and convert earlier than if i rest. I don't mean to say resting is not plausable. It's just that i do more when i am not resting, and i have enough MP to last me from convert to convert, if the WHM sucks ass, i cannot work to make the party any faster. And i'll then rest, with no or next to nothing in terms of extra castings.

Even if you didn't want to use an elemental spell you could rest and cure during the next fight so the WHM has MP for future chains.

That is never a bad idea Lavi. But things would move quicker if i didin't do that. Remember it's the party's MP, not the RDM's MP and the WHM's MP. one force understand ?

I do use elemental spells, that is something even a resting RDM would not cast more than once during a battle. And i still melee.

Giving the mob TP means more damage to the tank or party if it uses an AoE attack, the WHM has to cure more than before, and that means less MP for further chaining. Now why would anyone who purposely seeks a party for the sole purpose of getting experience, hinder their own desire?

How much DMG the melee does on the mob in given time is random. RDM misses alot, and other melee miss too. The party is one force. The PLD misses twice = maybe the RDM managed to plant 1 hit, while the party continues to miss and hit.

Fullfilling my duties i have actually hit mobs quite alot and the AoE is unleashed on the party. within seconds the puller is off to get another mob and the WHM actually has something to do. As for i, i take 0 DMG and if it's actually worth it, i'll heal too. This goes on for hours on end non stop, am i the only one that ever sees this or something ? Now if the WHM sucks, i'd be on my ass as much as i can. To blame RDM for giving the mob extra TP is ok, but to say it effects the experience intake is silly.

I am gonna assume you are not completely retarded and have some intelligence on this.

Oh joy

Damage although random to a certain extent, is NOT completely random. If it was everyone would melee and gear would not matter. I am sure you are aware all melee focus on STR, right? They do this to increase the damage they do. To add to that, melees have higher base STR, attack and weapon skill levels than mages. Yet again, the damage they do per hit is worth the 2 TP incurred by the mob. Your crap damage even with your en- spells still does not even come close to what another melee does. Don't even kid yourself.

I hit for just a little less DMG than a Hume PLD when i plant hits. if i magnage a 500 DMG MB, it would be nicer if it was 600, So what if i melee and do 150 DMG.... And again there is nothing to complain about because enfeebling haste and refresh is done, and dispel is in the making, what is the problem ?

Now I am completely lost on your entire train of thought, but you seem to think you are making up for everyone's misses by meleeing.

No, i was just stating the randomness of hitting the mob... You countered it with "*IF* the entire party melee'd blah blah blah, which makes no sence to what is really happening. You camplain about Random hits from a weak melee class.

It doesn't work like that. You miss far too often even with your +acc gear and if you are eating +acc food, you are even more a waste of a good party slot.

Your examples are the same as your guess's, you can't tell me how much DMG i'm capable of doing with a sword can you ? With JSE at that.... And don't even bring in the +acc food, i don't eat it. Your whole picture of me is a melee RDM who does nothing... Just like the other melee RDMs you crossed who suck ass. Now you flock with your hate melee RDMs thread to hit me, lol where's your brain ?

So suddenly you take 0 damage from an AoE attack? Does this mean you actively stand in AoE range and waste MP that otherwise would not be needed had you not decided to melee on stoneskin? Or maybe phalanx too?

Bitch !?, RDM has the highest enhancing cap i breath Stoneskin like air.... I am the king of handeling links because of this...

Only AoE's i can think of that i fear is from those Gobbouie things in Boyhadatree, Tigers, and Cockatrice's. 3 mobs i can think of. Stoneskin is cheap on MP too, Phalanx i only use for solo, or occationally i would apply it in parties, but it's no good. AoE will happen once or twice if i melee or not. WHM will cast Curaga and although it does not matter since curaga is casted, i still take 0 DMG, usually i'm not needed to heal when this happens, and the WHM still has and regains a shit load of MP from the Refresh cycle that i made, and from resting.

It's important for RDM to have enough MP for convert, nothing wrong with enforcing that with Stoneskin.

Again, if you want to melee, you have three options:
1. A Skill up party. There is constantly one seeking in Lower Jueno. Every mage needs to skill up their weapons at some point. Other melees need WS points. There is an abundance of these parties and they will let you swing and miss to your heart's content.

Every mage does not need to skill up their weapons, and if i want to skill up a weapon, i go solo, and plant more hits. Don't try to give me advice on skilling up weapons, you can't solo like i.

2. Change jobs. You have many other jobs who are specifically tailored to meleeing mobs. You want to melee and be able to cast spells too? Be a PLD or DRK. No one will ever criticize you for meleeing then.

Don't forget if i had Kraken club (i miss that thing) or the 75 Excaliber.

3. Solo. No one will bother you if you are meleeing solo. You can farm or camp NMs at the same time and not just solo randomly. You even have some of the best soloing tools in the game, phalanx and stoneskin.

Not just any Stoneskin, RDM enhancing cap stoneskin. Having high enfeebling skill allows me to solo VT's too. It takes long but it can be done, don't try to tell me how to play RDM, you probably couldn't be a good one.

For the last time, an experience party is for getting experience. It is in your best interest to get the most experience in the amount of time available. You are joining a party with 5 other members and the least you can do is give them the courtesy of getting the most experience possible. If that means not meleeing, then don't melee.

I can stand to the side and play exactly the same without the melee Lavi, only difference is i'm doing less DMG.

-Resting is not bad, but dosn't give enough MP to start nuking more either.

- Resting means no haste cycle

- If a RDM is at a point where he needs alot of rest, the party will be less prouductive.

-The fact that i'm standing means fast dispel... Fast Recasts... Well joined Refresh cycle.

-The fact that i am meleeing means, More DMG ontop of the DMG i do when i go Nukular...in terms of over all DMG.

- Going Nukular for RDM more than once in a single battle is a bad idea.

-Casting elemental III spells should only be done when convert is ready, or close enough.

- I do everything else, there is no reason why i cannot melee, i'm not your RDM, and if you never seen one that can melee and do everything else, then i am really special, but i know i am not the only one who can play like this and deliver.

This is singularly the longest post I've ever seen on QCDN outside of guides.

GJ

 

[random hero]

maybe he bought his acct like i did.....jk

LOL that person that said you bought your account was a 100% fucking moron, almost as much as that neosquall dude

 

[ultraseven]

I dunno how any Red Mage manages to melee at all...I did it for shits and giggles in my party last night for one fight, just to laugh at it...Everytime I cast an enfeeble, a different equip is swapped in....Wind Staff on Gravity, then Rose Wand+1 on Paralyze, Earth Staff on Slow, Fire Staff on MB(Doing Fusion)....How the hell do you melee? I hit the mob with at least 5 different weapons that fight lol.

ahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Mishaela]

Just to void a huge fact of yours, Anttaru....yes, RDM could melee with Excalibur, but ANY job could melee very well with their ultimate weapon. There's no real difference.

Yes, you can be a pretty decent DD with Kraken Club + an enspell, but you wouldn't get too great of a WS unless you go /NIN and actually offhand the club (which in turn, means no /WHM or /BLM, making nukes and enfeebs suffer), and due to RDM Club skill, you'd be fighting Ts (or maybe some VTs with relatively low def) in order to be hitting for more than 0 with the Club to get TP in the first place...and I don't know of many parties that stay content to fighting low VTs/Ts for long. If you can get the att/str bonuses to break 0s on VT/ITs, grats, but I personally have enough trouble hurting VT/IT with a Sea Robber, 253 club (not capped, shame on me.) and 69str with equips. Unless the en-damage guaruntees TP or something? If so, lucky you, and I'll retract this comment...


By the way - WHM don't have enough enhancing to use Stoneskin to tank? I solo'd Yum Kimil for a BRD (whom couldn't be near for the fight, since he agroed everything in the general area), got 30xp split between us both (meaning he was what..EM? And an AF NM to boot) and I was /SMN, not, as most RDM are when soloing, /NIN. I've successfully tanked a Typhoon Wyvern from 80%hp to death without /NIN (I was the only mage there) as well. WHM may not be able to solo nor tank as well as RDM, but saying we can't tank is a huge load of crap, thanks. =P

I'm not gonna go any further into this...if an RDM wants to melee, fine. If they think melee damage will help more than some other form of effort, their choice...

 

[Mishaela]

And sorry, had a miniature brain fart - was 37xp in a 2-person party, which I believe is high DC, not EM I believe...not 100% sure anymore, haven't really played in like two weeks.. *shrug*

 

[Bluefrost]

Notice how most of the people that are saying RDM can melee are actually RDM.

 

[Trippyhippy]

Notice how most of the people that are saying RDM can melee are actually RDM.

yeah, they are all rdms, and not a real melee damage dealer.

 

[emokid]

maybe he bought his acct like i did.....jk

LOL that person that said you bought your account was a 100% fucking moron, almost as much as that neosquall dude

haha <3 this guy

 

[Neyla]

Notice how most of the people that are saying RDM can melee are actually RDM.

But not every RDM who's spoken up supports meleeing. It's a division among RDMs themselves. Allakhazam's RDM board (if you can stomach their boards at all) usually has melee vs. caster topics on the first page every day, with RDMs from both sides continually tearing each other a new asshole.