The virtue of Absolute Virtue

[Moink]

Hope everythings ok for you guys, in regards to Faye.

In regards to manpower, however, I think 36+ isn't a bad number. I've been witness to AV knocking the crap out of my alliance and I (whilst some of us were doing the noble thing and running like mad) and with other shells when I decided to just go peek. Having backup parties in case of a hard wipe isn't a bad thing at all. One goes down (or the majority) and you can easily swap in another. It's not about throwing bodies at him, imo, more like being properly prepared.

But again, this is just my humble opinion. ^^

I understand having the man power and the back up. but i honestly feel that when you add more people, you get more chaos. People would need to be doing well and I would assign players to 2hours.

 

[Tristam Green]

When they zoom in on AV a second time and everyone uses their 2hour...

Can anyone tell me how many people 2hr AFTER his 2hour? (Yes I know the answer)

Take the answer you get and see what you can tie this number to.

It wouldn't happen to be....seven, would it? I'm not able to even see the video, and yet that's the most logical # for me.

 

[Moink]

When they zoom in on AV a second time and everyone uses their 2hour...

Can anyone tell me how many people 2hr AFTER his 2hour? (Yes I know the answer)

Take the answer you get and see what you can tie this number to.

15 2hours...

There were, at the time AV was created, 15 jobs.

No, I'm not saying well have 15 people use their 2hours will lock his. But maybe its the catalyst and after doing this, you then hold him as best you can for two hours and begin to match his 2hours to lock his jobs one by one.

 

[Hexx]

A play on numbers seems like a likely tactic..........being that this game is based on numbers and chance (to a certain extent) and also elements. Im guessing that maybe the way SE wanted us to defeat AV was by exposing all the connections that numbers and elements have in common?

Damn you Moink, now you have me craving for a shot at AV XD

 

[Courtney]

15 2hours...

There were, at the time AV was created, 15 jobs.

No, I'm not saying well have 15 people use their 2hours will lock his. But maybe its the catalyst and after doing this, you then hold him as best you can for two hours and begin to match his 2hours to lock his jobs one by one.

Since the only evidence you'll accept is the SE video, there clearly weren't 15 people using 2 hours at the same time in it.

 

[johnno25]

hmmmmmm, interesting.

has anyone else noticed that the pld always invincibles first? well, at least from what i've seen.


also i couldn't get a count on the # of ppl there, maybe someone could post it if they know. i'd like to roll this around in the old noggin for a while.


hmmmm, just noticed when AV uses chainspell in the vid, the pld doesn't invincible and only 2 2hrs go off

 

[Moink]

Since the only evidence you'll accept is the SE video, there clearly weren't 15 people using 2 hours at the same time in it.

Actually, yes there was... if your including the PLD at beginning... Don't... He 2houred BEFORE AV used Soul Voice.

Also how do you WANT me to play out the videos from Xer? seriously... He was out of range about half the time and there was no strategy being handed out or anything else. I saw in thoses videos:

"Don't use JAs" a million times and players going ... "What? No JAs?"
or "2hr when you see the dust bowl" and only to find AV 2houring himself and noone following suit.
or "AV uses Invincible... wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait... PLD uses Invincible! 'You were late!' and 'If your going to 2hr, don't fucking wait on your ass'"

Show me a -solid- underlying video of players who don't have their heads cut off and perform a well handed out and executed strategy and maybe I will retract statements. Xer's videos only show what its like while fighting AV and yes I see how incredibly hard he can be, but for christ sake... have a damn strategy for AV ready at all times and put out the numbers.

I understand that Xer's videos and or responses were fueled via BG and put into process AS the fight would occur and thats not strategy... thats poor word of mouth.

 

[Courtney]

Actually, yes there was... if your including the PLD at beginning... Don't... He 2houred BEFORE AV used Soul Voice.

Also how do you WANT me to play out the videos from Xer? seriously... He was out of range about half the time and there was no strategy being handed out or anything else. I saw in thoses videos:

"Don't use JAs" a million times and players going ... "What? No JAs?"
or "2hr when you see the dust bowl" and only to find AV 2houring himself and noone following suit.
or "AV uses Invincible... wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait... PLD uses Invincible! 'You were late!' and 'If your going to 2hr, don't fucking wait on your ass'"

Show me a -solid- underlying video of players who don't have their heads cut off and perform a well handed out and executed strategy and maybe I will retract statements. Xer's videos only show what its like while fighting AV and yes I see how incredibly hard he can be, but for christ sake... have a damn strategy for AV ready at all times and put out the numbers.

I understand that Xer's videos and or responses were fueled via BG and put into process AS the fight would occur and thats not strategy... thats poor word of mouth.

There isn't a video of everyone trying exactly the techniques you said. The Demo video does however show detailed testing of a number of solid theories that came out of the SE video.

If you think that those videos only show an example of "people running around with their heads cut off" then you've completely missed their point, and you've completely missed the point of the fight.

There was a community attempt where the major shells on most of the servers got together, brainstormed, and tried out any feasable strategies in an attempt to have SOME effect on AV. Most of these Shells shared their information in those two threads, and that leadto further tests, by multiple shells across multiple servers. Those 6 points I listed though (with their results), we've tested first hand and seen thats what has happened, as have a number of other shells.

Its going to be difficult developing a strategy for a mob you haven't seen fight. It's going to be incredibly difficult if you're determined to completely ignore the evidence provided by several hundred people that have already fought and tested on it.

 

[Courtney]

Timeline:
This is the time line of SE's fight with Absolute Virtue, it is very short and concise. Credit goes to Atreides of Fairy.

1. Iceday 12:10, Call Wyvern (from English Video, part 3)
player 2hrs used: blm, pld, smn, drg (call wyvern), rdm, brd, blm

2. Iceday 14:42, Soul Voice (from Japanese Video, part 1 and German Video, part 2)
player 2hrs used: blm, smn, blm, drg, brd, brd, sam, whm, blm, drk, blm, rdm

3. Iceday 16:14, 100 Fists (from French Video, part 2)
player 2hrs used: blm, brd, blm, brd, smn, rdm

4. Iceday 16:55, Meikyo Shisui (from Japanese Video, part 2 and German Video, Part 3)
player 2hrs used: blm, brd, blm, sam, drg, brd, smn, rdm, drk, brd

5. Lightningsday 5:07 Chainspell (from English Video, part 2 and French Video, part 3)
player 2hrs used: blm, brd, rdm, brd

6. Lightningsday 6:50 Soul Voice (from English Video part 1)
player 2hrs used: pld, blm, whm, blm, sam, drg, whm, smn, blm, blm, brd, drk, rdm, brd, brd

7. Lightningsday 8:55 Astral Flow (from French Video, part 1 and German Video, part 1)
player 2hrs used: blm, blm, blm, brd, rdm, brd, blm, drg, smn, whm, rdm, drk

8. Lightningsday 13:55 Astral Flow (from Japanese Video, part 3)
player 2hrs used: pld, blm, smn, brd, drg, blm, blm, pld, blm, rdm, brd, rdm



OK, so what change in AV did you see after event 6 (of the above list) that didn't occur after any of the other events?

 

[Moink]

Did you watch these videos? cus I viewed them up to the point of Xer using his Tavnazia Ring.

Look, you can pin the "well you never fought him so you don't know" against me and you'd be entirely right.

But your defending these videos like theyre the holy grail to understanding AV.

They're not. And for that matter neither is what I have and had said in this thread so far until I get the experience and the strategy laid out the way I want it.

Yes, I agree there are segments and parts of what SE did in the video on Xer's but thats like looking at a car engine and trying to figure out how it works, taking it apart piece by piece and testing each piece individually and say "nope its broke, next" or "Thats not what makes it work"

The Development team gave us the dynamics of AV in THAT video, so am I going to use that as my prime source? Fucking right I am because the secrets the hints and everything else is IN that video.

Stop chopping up their video and diagnosing each segment as their own and test the entire video as a whole, that includes whats been shown with JoL.

 

[Courtney]

So you're going to invent stuff that doesn't even match the video provided by SE, and then criticise the general population for not trying what you've just invented?

And we don't have a video as a whole. SE chopped it up before they gave it to us, but if you can clearly see your idea doesn't work from any of the videos, then I don't know what your're expecting here...

 

[Moink]

6. Lightningsday 6:50 Soul Voice (from English Video part 1)
player 2hrs used: blm, whm, whm, blm, sam, drg, whm, smn, blm, blm, brd, drk, rdm, brd, brd

Fixed

OK, so what change in AV did you see after event 6 (of the above list) that didn't occur after any of the other events?

From what you listed above and I cant translate all the languages, so i'll go by this.

Other then the MNK 2hr, All of them ended up being matched. And multiple 2hours were used. Now let me build my defense before you go "I told you so"

 

[Moink]

So you're going to invent stuff that doesn't even match the video provided by SE, and then criticise the general population for not trying what you've just invented?

Where did I say I want people to try what and if anything I invented? If I'm going to test something, yes I will need a service provided by multiple people, I don't mean stop what your doing and do it my way. Its speculation, I stated this from day one of this thread.

And we don't have a video as a whole. SE chopped it up before they gave it to us, but if you can clearly see your idea doesn't work from any of the videos, then I don't know what your're expecting here...

I never asked for the entire video, and SE doesn't want nor do you need to see it all. Sage Sundi regarded that AV is an 18 hour fight and this video should be regarded in this way. That time line may seem accurate but if this shell took 18 hours to kill, chances are those days came up atleast another time and that the clips provided are meant to confuse you and oherwise make you think what is being done here happens almost instantly or within a few minutes of each other.

I am still reviewing all 4 videos, but I highly doubt that whatever secret or clues that SE may have revealed requires all 4 videos. Please bare with me.

 

[LadyKiKi]

lol notice how it "Readies Chainspell" and then it "Uses chainspell".

Why does chainspell need to be readied?

 

[Hexx]

Ok so what if all of these theories have been tested, has anyone thought outside the box and figured maybe, just maybe, there is STILL something we are missing? FFXI is an increadibly deep game with an extreme learning curve. As pointless as this discussion may seem to some of you, please let us have our discussion and feel free to EXCLUDE yourselves out of it.

I mean hell, at least Courtney here (as much as she disagrees with Moink) is staying relevant to the topic and providing what proof she can.


Edit: I did a little digging with the help of my friend Garrion (hes from Shiva and RL friend and co-worker) and I found the complete transcript of the SE fight with AV. Notice how (as we noted earlier) he "readies" his 2hrs and THEN uses them. Now from experience (those who have fought AV) how much of a time span is there between him "readying" and "using" the 2hrs? Now notice how the dev team is on the ball in using their 2hrs as well.

The transcript
Movie time 2:15
Iceday 23:46
Iws starts casting Blizzard III on Absolute Virtue.
Rasopomosopo Starts casting Cure III on Ronana.
Popumyonmapu starts casting Blizzard on Absolute Virtue.
Rasopomosopo casts Cure III.
Ronana Recovers 111HP.
Ryl casts Utsusemi: Ichi.
Ryl Gains the effect of Copy Image.
Basu casts Haste.
Basu gains the effect of Haste.
Ruriri casts Haste.
Elmaulle gains the effect of haste.
Sibigobi starts casting Blizzard II on Absolute Virtue

Absolute Virtue starts casting Tornado II.
Arefelie starts casting Dispel on Absolute Virtue.
Basu starts casting Baraera on Basu.

Iceday 23:58
Absolute Virtue readies Wing Thrust.
Oruu starts casting Blizzard III on Absolute Virtue.
Ronana casts Stoneskin.
Ronana gains the effect of Stoneskin.
Popumyonmapu starts casting Blizzard II on Absolute Virtue
Elmaulle uses Invincible.
Iws starts casting Blizzard II on Absolute Virtue.
Basu casts Baraera.
Basu gains the effect of Baraero.
Rnana gains the effect of Baraero.
Ryl gains the effect of Baraero.
Arefelie gains the effect of Baraero.
Elmaulle gains the effect of Baraero.

Now..
Lightningday 0:00
Ryl was defeated by Absolute Virtue.
Absolute Virtue readies Wing Thrust.
Ronana starts casting Sleep II on Absolute Virtue.
Sibigobi starts casting Thunder IV on Absolute Virtue.
Oruu starts casting Thunder on Absolute Virtue.
Elmaulle Starts casting Utusemi: Ni.
Popumyonmapu starts casting Thunder on Absolute Virtue.
Ronana starts casting Dispel on Absolute Virtue
Iws starts casting Blizzard IV on Absolute Virtue.
Elmaulle starts casting Utsusemi: Ni
Elmaulle gains the effect of Copy Image.
Ronana starts casting Sleep on Absolute Virtue
Oruu starts casting Thunder IV on Absolute Virtue
Chakiki Starts casting Refresh on Chakiki
Absolute Virtue readies Medusa Javelin
Popumyonmapu starts casting Thunder IV on Absolute Virtue
Rasopomosopo starts casting Cure III on Ryl

Fade to black and back.
Lightningday 6:46

Rasopomosopo gains the effect of Ballad
Roopelope gains the effect of Ballad
Chakiki gains the effect of Ballad
Sibigobi gains the effect of Ballad
Oruu gains the effect of Ballad
Hupapa starts casting Mage's Ballad II on Hupapa
Elmaulle starts casting Utsusemi: Ichi on Elmaulle
Ronana starts casting Dispel on Absolute Virtue
Lalala starts casting Mage's Ballad on Lalala
Arefelie casts Utsusemi: Ni
Arefelie gains the effect of Copy Image
Ryl casts Utsusemi: Ichi
Ryl gains the effect of Copy Image
Ronana starts casting Bind on Absolute Virtue
Hupapa casts Mage's Ballad II
Hupapa gains the effect of Ballad
Rasopomosopo gains the effect of Ballad
Chakiki gains the effect of Ballad
Sibigobi gains the effect of Ballad
Oruu gains the effect of Ballad
Elmaulle casts Utsusemi: Ichi
Elmaulle gains the effect of Copy Image
Ronana starts casting Blind on Absolute Virtue

Screen starts to zoom in
Lightningday 6:50 (not sure if this is correct, next part of video @ 3:06 shows 5:02 vana time)
Movie Time 2:54

Lalala casts Mage's Ballad.
Lalala gains the effect of Ballad
Akiki gains the effect of Ballad
Elmaulle uses Invincible
Absolute Virtue uses Soul Voice.
Lalala starts casting Mage's Ballad II on Lalala
Popumyonmapu uses Manafont.
Basu uses Benediction.
Basu recovers 0 HP
Roopelope uses Benediction.
Roopelope recovers 0 HP.
Iws uses Manafont.
Ronana recovers 72 HP
Hupapa recovers 0 HP
Dreamrainbow uses Meikyo Shisui.
Astri uses Call Wyvern
Ruriri uses Benediction.
Ruriri recovers 0 HP
Houjuhkye recovers 0 HP
Arefelie recovers 0 HP
Rasopomosopo recovers 0 HP
Chakiki recovers 0 HP
Rasopomosopo uses Astral Flow.
Elmaulle recovers 127 HP
Sibigobi recovers 0 HP
Sibigobi uses Manafont.
Oruu uses Manafont
Hupapa uses Soul Voice.
Hina uses Soul Voice.
Oruu recovers 0 HP
Yanono uses Blood Weapon.
Chakiki uses Chainspell.
Ronana starts casting Sleep II on Absolute Virtue
Houjuhkye uses Soul Voice.
Chakiki starts casting Refresh on Chakiki
Absolute Virtue starts casting Maiden's Virelai.
Lalala casts Mage's Ballad II
Lalala gains the effect of Ballad
Akiki gains the effect of Ballad
Ronana starts casting Sleep on Absolute Virtue

Fade to black, and back.

Lightningday 5:02
Movie time 3:06

Ronana is intimidated by Absolute Virtue
Houjihkye casts Cure II
Arefelie recovers 0 HP
Oruu casts Blink
Oruu gains the effect of Blink
Mukopekko casts Haste.
Mukopekko gains the effect of Haste
Ryl starts casting Cure III on Arefelie.
Oruu starts casting Stoneskin on Oruu
Elmaulle starts casting Cure IV on Arefelie.
Ronana starts casting Cure IV on Arefelie
Akiki starts casting Cure III on Arefelie

3:16 Movie time

Absolute Virtue readies Chainspell
Ronana starts casting Sleep II on Absolute Virtue.
Ronana casts Cure IV
Arefelie recovers 200 HP
Elmaulle casts Cure IV
Arefelie recovers 386 HP
Absolute Virtue starts casting Aero V
Absolute Virtue uses Chainspell
Popumyonmapu uses Manafont.
Oruu casts Stoneskin
Oruu gains the effect of Stoneskin
Hina uses Soul Voice
Chakiki uses Chainspell
Absolute Virtue starts casting Aeroga IV
Arefelie starts casting Utsusemi: Ichi
Ronana starts casting Dispel on Absolute Virtue
Houjuhkye casts Cure II
Ronana recovers 72 HP
Mukopekko casts Haste
Yanono gains the effect of Haste
Elmaulle starts casting Utsusemi: Ni on Elmaulle
Ronana is intimidated by Absolute Virtue's Presence
Houjuhkye starts casting Cure III on Ryl
Basu starts casting Cure V on Ryl
Akiki starts casting Cure V on Ryl
Absolute Virtue starts casting Aero V


Video cuts out..
Comes back, Absolute Virtue still has its Javalin, no bracelets
Watersday 12:04
Movie time 3:25

Akiki starts casting Cure III on Elmaulle
Popumyonmapu starts casting Blink on Popumyonmapu
Iws casts Blink
Iws gains the effect of Blink
Ronana is intimidated by Absolute Virtue's Presence
Absolute Virtue Readies Impact Stream
Hina's casting is interrupted
Ryl casts Cure III
Elmaulle recovers 194 HP
Lalala casts Mage's Ballad
Akiki gains the effect of Ballad
Olala gains the effect of Ballad
Akiki casts Cure III
Elmaulle recovers 240 HP
Olala starts casting Cure III on Olala
Lalala starts casting Mage's Ballad II
Basu starts casting Haste on Ryl
Popumyonmapu casts Blink
Popumyonmapu gains the effect of Blink
Ronana Starts casting Utsusemi: Ni on Ronana
Elmaulle starts casting Utsusemi: Ni on Elmaulle
Hina starts casting Mage's Ballad II on Hina
Ryl starts casting Utsusemi: Ni on Ryl
Houjuhkye starts casting Mage's Ballad on Houjuhkye
Arefelie starts casting Utsusemi: Ichi on Arefelie
Absolute Virtue starts casting Aero V
Florensz starts casting Cure V on Dreamrainbow
Olala casts Cure III
Olala recovers 217 HP
Elmaulle starts casting Cure III on Elmaulle
Mukopekko starts casting Haste on Muk
Basu casts Haste
Ryl gains the effect of Haste
Ronana casts Utsusemi: Ni
Ronana gains the effect of Copy Image
Ronana starts casting Sleep II on Absolute Virtue
Elmaulle casts Utsusemi: Ni
Elmaulle gains the effect of Copy immage

Movie starts to zoom in
Movie time 3:38

Lalala casts Mage's Ballad II
Lalala gains the effect of Ballad
Akiki gains the effect of Ballad
Ryl casts Utsusemi: Ni
Ryl gains the effect of Copy Image
Olala gains the effect of Ballad
Olala starts casting Cure III on Olala
Absolute Virtue uses Call Wyvern
Eraphe starts casting Cure on Elmaulle
Fannie starts casting Diaga on Aern's Wyvern
Popumyonmapu uses Manafont
Ryl uses Invincible
Ronana is intimidated by Absolute Virtue's presence
Rasopomosopo uses Astral Flow
Astri uses Call Wyvern
Arefelie casts Utsusemi: Ichi
Arefelie gains the effect of Copy Image
Hina casts Mage's Ballad II
Hina gains the effect of Ballad
Iws gains the effect of Ballad
Arefelie uses Chainspell
Astri gains the effect of Ballad
Popumyonmapu gains the effect of Ballad
Florensz casts Cure V
Dreamrainbow recovers 371 HP
Houjuhkye casts Mage's Ballad
Houjuhkye gains the effect of Ballad
Elmaulle gains the effect of Ballad
Ryl gains the effect of Ballad
Ronana gains the effect of Ballad
Arefelie gains the effect of Ballad
Elmaulle casts Cure III
Elmaulle recovers 194 HP
Hina uses Soul Voice
Sibigobi uses Manafont
Mukopekko casts Haste
Mukopekko gains the effect of Haste
Fannie uses Flee
Fannie's movement speed increases.


End 4:00 movie time.
Absolute virtue has bracelets around arms. No vana day/time to compare.

 

[Courtney]

I don't disagree with Moink at all.

I want Moink to look at the SE video, to look at what hundreds of people have reported to have tested, and to some actual videos of some tests, in coming up with a theory. He hasn't fought the mob so he has to rely on videos and some second hand information if he wants to come up with a plausible theory.

 

[Courtney]

Oh and if you have a link to where Sage Sundi has said this is meant to be an 18 hour fight, I'd be very interested in seeing it. I've never seen that reported.

 

[Hexx]

Right right, but at the same time, those tactics that have been weaned from the video may have been put to use incorrectly dont you think? I mean, we ARE human afterall, and we make mistakes. What me and my friend here have been brainstorming is, what if the window to lock AV's 2hrs is between the "AV readies 2hr" and "AV uses said 2hr"?

 

[Courtney]

So, despite the fact that none of the SE people used a 2 hour in the gap you're referring to, and despite the fact that there's no evidence in the SE video that AVs 2hr abilities were locked at all, you think that using a 2hr in that window will lock its 2hrs?

I mean, maybe it will, but so may using exactly 15 2hrs.
Or exactly 14.
or exactly 13.
or exactly 12.
or using them exactly 1.5 sec after AV
or using them exactly 2.5 sec after...

There are endless possibilities, but a guess without any kind of backup from the available evidence isn't "thinking outside the box" its a wild stab in the dark... (which is where all the "Ebon Panels" references come from)

The "readies xxx2hr" has been noticed though (its just below the timeline in the first post of the thread I linked.) There are theories on why at the start of that thread, so they've been looked at, but nothing of significance has come from it. It isn't zone dialog (ie it isn't in the zone dats) and so is a general mob behaviour, but I can't say I've watched other mobs closely enough to see how they ready 2hrs (or not).

 

[Hexx]

This might not be an adequate comparison but bear with me:

Look at Dynamis or Campaign mobs that do have 2hrs. Their 2hrs are instant and take effect right away. Take for example MNK mobs in Dynamis, when they 100 Fist its instant and the chat log reads "MNK mob uses 100 Fist" not "readies." Dont you think thats odd? That the strongest mob in the game has to "ready" his 2hrs vs lesser mobs that use theirs instantly?

Yes I understand that until we try these theories out its a stab in the dark, but remember that that is how the majority of great ideas and inventions started, as "stabs at the dark."