Thief just some minor gripes... (A Vang Inspired Post)

[Phraust]

Why, for the love of god, is everyone still a bunch of morons when it comes to partying with a thief?

Let me give you a little look into my average party settups and the Dynamics that follow.

Party 1:
Location: Labrynth of Onzozo.
Members: Pld/War, Whm/Blm, Rdm/Blm, Blm/whm, Rng/Nin, Thf/Nin.
Skillchain: Distortion
Magic Burst: Blizzaga II, Blizzard II.

Dynamics:
What does Happen:
Ranger Pulls, Thief Primes SATA, Paladin Vokes.
Now this is just Dumb... The paladin has just wasted the 'SA' Part of my SATA. And has thus Gimped me out of about 200 damage, that could have in turn been 200 Damage that went to Hate on the Paladin.
Solution Suggested by the Paladin: SATA off the Ranger.
I have to say, every time I hear this, I want to cry. Does no one understand what SATA does? I mean where have you guys been the last 30+ levels? Does no one ever Party with a thief? Do they Not know that SATA will pretty much lock Hate on the Ranger, and make the Paladin Burn almost all their MP just to hold Hate?
On top of that, the First SATA is always best used with a Skillchain at start.

In Short the Typical group wants the following:
-150 damage of a bare TA. or 350 Damage worth of hate on a Major Damage dealer in the group.
-Hate recovery through excess use of MP and Job abilities.
-Skillchain Halfway, or towards the end of a fight.
-MP Lost of healing Non-Tank members of the party.
-Damage lost on members holding back on attacks.
-Enfeebles lost due to RDM taking up healing slack.
-Buffs lost due to Mages being taxed on healing.
-Damage lost due to lack of enfeebles.

A good settup:
1) Positioning:
-Mages In back.
-Ranger out pulling.
-Thief Spotting Ranger for links and adds.
-Paladin away from mages, setting up to follow mob.

2)Dynamics:
Ranger Pulls, Thief locks onto the mob, and follows it, Paladin locks on mob and follows it, Ranger runs to mages and stops, targets mob, and checks line up, Mages stand by. Ranger Uses Sidewinder, Thief Uses Dancing Edge, Distortion ensues, Paladin vokes, Black and Red mages Burst, Battle begins, Enfeebs, Buffs, and melee continue.
Benefits:

-500-700 Damage worth of hate onTank..
-Hate locked through use of minimal MP and Job abilities.
-Skillchain at start, allowing for TP gain, Hate transfer, and Bursts to happen while all spell timers are fresh.
-MP Loss minimal, Healer can concentrate on tank, and Buffs.
-Higher hate level on tank allows for more damage from Ranger and Black Mage.
-Enfeebles Delivered at start, allowing more efficient attacks.
-Buffs passed out with little fear of group mortality.
-Damage increase due to enfeebles.
-Faster fights and less MP used due to proper use of a thief.

Gripe:
Skillchain:
Know your mob, and know how to efficiently use your Skillchains, to not only maximize your Damage, but your MP use as well.

Example:
Torama Weak to Earth.

SC: #1
Distortion skillchain(Ranger/Thief): Sidewinder(700)>>Dancing Edge(600)>>Distortion(30-120)>>Blizzaga II(700)+Blizzard II(300).
Total: 2,430-2,520 Damage.
MP Used: 252
DMG/MP: 9.64 to 10
Hate to Tank: 630-720
Hate spread: -20»+70(Rng) -20»+70(Blm) -420»-330(Rdm)

SC: #2
Distortion skillchain(Samurai/Thief): Tachi: Empi(150)>>Dancing Edge(600)>>Disortion(30-120)>>Blizzaga II(700)+Blizzard II(300).
Total: 1,780-1,870
MP Used: 252
DMG/MP: 7.06 to 7.42
Hate to tank: 630-720
Hate Spread: -570»-480(Sam) -20»+70(Blm) -420»-330(Rdm)

SC: #3
Scission Skillchain(Samurai/Thief)60-62: Tachi: Yakukaze(250)>>Dancing Edge(600)>>Scission(150-350)>>Stone III(450)+Stone II(250)
Total: 1,600-1,800
MP Used: 135
DMG/MP: 11.85 to 13.33
Hate to tank: 750-950
Hate Spread: -700»-500(Sam) -500»-300(Blm) -600»-400(Rdm)

SC: #4
Scission Skillchain(Samurai/Thief)63: Tachi: Yakukaze(250)>>Dancing Edge(600)>>Scission(150-350)>>Stonaga III(900)+Stone II(250)
Total: 2,050-2,250
MP Used: 303
DMG/MP: 6.77 to 7.43
Hate to tank: 750-950
Hate Spread: -700»-500(Sam) -50»+150(Blm) -600»-400(Rdm)

I know I am starting to stray form a Game, and inching towards Rocket Science, But this is good stuff to know. If your Thief is your 'Hate Traffic Controller' you might want to know their oppinion on such things.

Now if you look at SC: #1 you can see that the Hate table on the mob is Fragile, but, when you factor in the Paladin's Abilities such as Provoke, Flash, and what not, you can see it it easy to recover from the Initial attacks.

In SC: #4 there is an interesting Phenomenon. Not only will the Hate be Relatively Fragile, But your MP to Damage Ratio is a little Skewed. In this case as well, although not shown, at 63 the Sckillchain Partners are doing a considerable amount More damage that what is shown. So a Stonaga III would not only upset the hate table, but it would kill the Mob a little too fast making TP Generation an issue.

The Best Route is SC: #3. You have all party members in the green as far as the Hate table is concerned, and that allows for more damage, with continued Spell casting. Spreading out the Damage to coincide with the tanks abilities to draw hate.

The Job Ability Hide:
KK, this is very important:

Hide Only works on sight only Mobs!

Stop telling me to use hide on a bad link. If I fuck up, I will kill myself to ensure the group lives. In the example of Toramas, I can not hide from them AFTER they aggro. They are Sight Agressive mobs, but after they have aggroed they switch to Scent Tracking mobs.

Hide Does NOT work on sound Agressive monsters!

Here is a very short list of exp mobs, and mobs that are in the vacinity of exp mobs, that hide works on:

Goblins
Bombs
Great Birds (Peryton Type)
Cocktarice
Yagudo
Tonberries

That is it. If I am pulling a Torama, and a Goblin aggros, I Cannot Hide!
If I am out pulling a Torama, and Aggro a Goblin, yes, then I can hide.

Information on a Thief's job trait: Assassin:

To understand Assassin, and it's impact on Trick attack one must understand Sneak attack first.

Sneak attack is an attack that when armed and used behind the mob will allow the thief to deal a Critical hit that has an attack bonus derived from the Thief's Dexterity.

Trick Attack (normal) is an attack that when armed and used while a group member is between the Thief and the monster will deal a regular attack that has an attack bonus derived from the Thief's Agility, a normal Trick attack is not a Critical hit. As well as being an enhanced attack, Trick attack takes all the damage and adds it to the person that is between the Thief and the Monster's Hate Table. In other words, If I attack for 100 damage using trick attack, and there is a Paladin between me and the mob, the paladin receives 100 damage worth of hate, and I get no hate what so ever.

Trick Attack (Assassin) is an attack that when armed and used while a group member is between the Thief and the Monster will deal a Critical hit(Like Sneak Attack) that has an Attack bonus derived from Agility.

What does this mean?
Well... What it has always meant:

Stop moving around God Damnit!!!

I swear, it absolutely boggles my mind. Why the fuck does everyone in this game move so god damn much? It's not like hitting the mob from another angle will deal more damage. Strangely, People only start to move when I do... Just please, stop moving...
On the same note, when settign up for SATA, Puller, or Voker, who ever is taking the hate for the settup, DO NOT MOVE, let the Tank and the Thief set up. The mob will move if you do, it will not move if we do. Let us worry about positioning.

Buffers: White & Red Mages, And Summoners, please Listen:

There is a Phnomenon We experience, it has a couple of names: Spell lag, or Splag, Spell Shock, Spell Stunned.... Etc.

Well there is this funny thing about FFXI and that is if you are stationary and have a Spell cast on you, you are pretty much Stunned until the spell has run it's coarse... there is a catch though. If you are engaging the mob, your attacks will go off, but your Special moves will not. Generally it is in the best interest to Haste everyone.

When a thief, tank, Primary Voker, or in some cases a puller(Rng) are set up I am already primed for SATA, and hit Ctrl+A to engage the mob and immediately do a weaponskill for chain. Dancing Edge Stacked ontop of SATA is brutal. But.. When I get a spell cast on me while I am engaging the mob I am stunned from doing my weapon skill, but my Character will still use the SATA, wasting my weaponskill.. Right after the Spell fades, I use my weponskill for nearly 1/5 it's potential Damage, and the Resulting chain is also reduced by a factor of 5. What I suggest is this, and you should get no problems, and a lot of love:

Wait for SATA, or SATA+Weaponskill to go off before you cast ANY spell on the Thief, this also includes Bar spells, Curaga, Protect and Shell, Haste, Cure, Regen, etc... After the mob is turned, and locked on the tank, you can pretty much go Apesh*t.

Basically in the log a botched, or Spellstunned series of events will look like this:

(Ranger) Torama (Found it) TP = 168%
(White Mage) MP = 642/778 83%/30%
Phraust uses Sneak Attack.
Phraust uses Trick Attack.
(Phraust) (Thief)(Dancing Edge) 174%
Ranger readies Slug Shot.
White Mage starts casting Haste on Phraust.
Ranger uses Slug Shot, the Torama receives 780 points of Damage.
Black Mage starts casting Blizzaga II on the Torama.
[Hit Ctrl+A]
White Mage casts Hatse.
[stunned]
Phraust scores a critical hit!
The Torama receives 350 points of damage.
Phraust receives the effect of Haste.
[unstunned]
Phraust readies Dancing Edge.
Phraust uses Dancing Edge, the Torama receives 150 points of damage.
Skillchain: Distortion.
The Torama recieves 23 points of damage.
Black Mage casts Blizzaga II the Torama receives 400 points of Damage.


If done correctly it should look like thisSame Scenario)

(Ranger) Torama (Found it) TP = 168%
(White Mage) MP = 642/778 83%/30%
Phraust uses Sneak Attack.
Phraust uses Trick Attack.
(Phraust) (Thief)(Dancing Edge) 174%
Ranger readies Slug Shot.
Ranger uses Slug Shot, the Torama receives 780 points of Damage.
[Hit Ctrl+A]
Black Mage starts casting Blizzaga II on the Torama.
Phraust readies Dancing Edge.
Phraust uses Dancing Edge, the Torama receives 666 points of damage.
Skillchain: Distortion.
The Torama receives 130 points of damage.
Black Mage casts Blizzaga II.
Magic Burst! The Torama recieves 702 Points of Damage!
White Mage starts casting Hatse on Phraust.
White Mage casts Haste.
Phraust recieves the effect of Apesh*t.

Treasure Hunter I & II:
Flat out, you people, Generally, are dipshits... Plain and simple, just fucking Dipshits.
First off you people treat thieves like absolute crap until you need your Genkai 1 Paper then you suddenly have a need for them... Then you have the Audacity to give said thief shit that thief TH II "Is Broken" or "Doesn't work on Rare, or Rare/Ex Drops.".
Here is How Treasure Hunter works, as a general statement:

Treasure Hunter Affects All Drops.

WHat Treasure hunter does is makes the chances of receiving drops better. The more drops you receive, the better your chances are at attaining the Item you are looking for.

For Example, and Strictly for Arguement's sake, think of Treasure hunter like this:

you want a key, you kill a Lich, No treasure hunter means you will have a 1 in 10 chance of getting an Item. the chance of that Item being a Paper is 1 in 10 on top of that. So in essence the chance of getting a paper is 1 in 100.

With Treasure hunter I, for argument's sake, adds a bonus that allows the Drop rate to alter to maybe 1 in 8, but the chance for a paper is still 1 in 10. In the end Treasure Hunter I ups the Chances of getting the paper by 20%, to a 1 in 80.

Finally, Treasure hunter II, for Arguments sake, adds an additional bonus to the drop rate that stacks attop Treasure Hunter I. Where Treasure Hunter I added a +2 to the drop ratio, Treasure Hunter adds another +2, making the drop rate of any item 1 in 6, the chance of getting a paper being 1 in 10, makes the total chance of getting paper 1 in 60. Basically upping your chances from Treasure Hunter I by 25%, or No treasure hunter by 40%

With a Thief Knife: Your Chances go up +1
With Assassin's Armlets: Your Chances Increase another +1

In the end, again for arguments sake, you end up with the following: Threasure hunter I (+2), Treasure hunter II (+2), Thief Knife (+1), Assassin's Armlets (+1). Chances of getting an Item From a Lich: 1 in 4. Chances of that Item being a Paper: 1 in 10, total Chances of gettign Paper: 1 in 40. Chances Improve from Just Treasure Hunter II by 33%, from Treasure Hunter I by 50%, and from No Treasure Hunter by 60%.

Now that over simplified explainantion is the best way I can explain why things function the way they do.

My best time was going out for Genkai Mold and having a dipshit Paladin in the same breath say these two things:

"Man your Treasure Hunter Must be broken... No Mold."
"Fuck I came here empty now I got like a million Mushrooms in my Inventory. lol"

Gee... I wonder why you have a bazillion Mushrooms...

Other commets that really piss me off:
"Thieves are like Uber money makers! You have a lot of Gil, can I have some?"
Ok chief, Just because I can make money doesn't mean I don't use it.

"Thief is a really cheap job."

I use to get pissed when people said this, but after examining enough thieves at my level I can see why people think that... I personally have all the best equiptment for my job aside form a Scorpion Harness +1 and a Pair of Sniper's Rings +1. Other thieves I have seen maybe, just maybe, have roughly 2,000,000g in equiptment. In contrast, I have close to 25,000,000g in equiptment. SO no, I have no fucking money. And please stop thinking because I have exceptional gear that I am rich.... And for the love of god, even if I was, what makes you think i would give you any of my Hard earned Gil over to you for doing nothing?

"Thieves don't need Haste, they are fast enough."

Look at our Skillchain partners.... Look at our Weaponskills post 60. The more TP we get, the more damage we can do. It is in your best interest to always Haste everyone that willl be doing damage. If Haste adds 10% speed to the person receiving the effect, and you haste your whole group, you just made your whole group 10% faster and thus more efficient. Which translates into 1 hour less grind for every 10 hours of grinding.

"Don't Steal/Mug, it takes out of our Treasure pool."

Bull-Fucking-Shit... I Mugged Cargo Crab Colin for 800 gil, and received 1,875 Gill on the kill, I killed Cargo Crab colin without mugging, and Received 1,875 gil...

"Give the Theif the last strike on the mob so Tresure Hunter works."

Treasure Hunter is a Passive trait... It works anyway you cut it... Tested and Proven Numerous times that the deathblow/drop corrolation is Bullshit..

KK well that ends my long ass post on my gripes... I highly doubt anyone would read it all the way...

 

[alanon]

Wait for SATA, or SATA+Weaponskill to go off before you cast ANY spell on the Thief, this also includes Bar spells, Curaga, Protect and Shell, Haste, Cure, Regen, etc... After the mob is turned, and locked on the tank, you can pretty much go Apesh*t.

Basically in the log a botched, or Spellstunned series of events will look like this:

I was totally unaware that a cure or anything would screw up SATA. Good info. This is overall a great post. Really doesn't belong on the flameboard (though Im sure some of the replies you will get, do belong here).

 

[onions]

Agreed.

 

[Audino]

I just read your entire post to the end, so there

How some people don't understand SATA is a bewilderment. My group has a person that levels their rng with us, but when we need drops (like G1) he has used his thf. We had a pld/war and I was drg/war. In that situation it is possible to not even move a single step to SATA. I think the only time my party had to move was when we zone a couple times.

The moving around thing... we do that sometimes. Pld vokes the mob at the start in a way that the mob is facing no one but the pld. Therefore poison sprays, etc will only affect the tank. I like to stand to the side on a right angle to the mob and then let the rng take the other side. Just so you can see the area around you a little bit better. But its not like we run around the whole battle, I have seen people to that. At the beginning, we move slightly for position, and pretty much stay where we are for the battle. Unless we have to chase it down... our blm nukes like hell sometimes lol.

Good post Phraust, I enjoyed reading it ^^

 

[Jezza]

THANK YOU!

Not only for helping me to kill the last 20 minutes of the workday, but also for the explanation. I knew that my spells could hurt the SC...and even though the rest of the information doesn't apply directly to me, I do have this question.....

Okay, so I make every attempt to have everyone refreshed (and hasted if the whm isn't doing it) before the first mob is pulled. Sometimes, but not always the cycle tends to need to be restarted during breaks..or at least at the end of a battle - which is fine.

Now, the first thing I do EVERY battle is hit the first of my two enfeeble macros. My thought was always that with dia/bio II, paralyze, blind, slow, poison II, and gravity on that the damage from the sc and such would be greater - or at least the chances of missing wouldn't be reduced by quite a bit.

What, if anyone would like to take an educated guess, would you say is the damage difference between sc'ing a properly enfeebled mob versus at the very beginning with no enfeebles? DoT spells need..well..time don't they?

Not a criticism 'tall though, just really curious.

Oh, and when I'm refreshing 4 1/2 players and hasting 3 - I promise not to whine when you all throw the whole cycle off.

I'm no [insert anal retentive player name here], except when it comes to my damn refresh/haste cycle.

Thanks again! Nice job!

 

[yanzi]

Dynamics:
What does Happen:
Ranger Pulls, Thief Primes SATA, Paladin Vokes.
Now this is just Dumb... The paladin has just wasted the 'SA' Part of my SATA. And has thus Gimped me out of about 200 damage, that could have in turn been 200 Damage that went to Hate on the Paladin.
Solution Suggested by the Paladin: SATA off the Ranger.
I have to say, every time I hear this, I want to cry. Does no one understand what SATA does? I mean where have you guys been the last 30+ levels? Does no one ever Party with a thief? Do they Not know that SATA will pretty much lock Hate on the Ranger, and make the Paladin Burn almost all their MP just to hold Hate?
On top of that, the First SATA is always best used with a Skillchain at start.

actually with assassin, a lot of thf past 60 that i've pt with don't stack SATA anymore. something along the lines that both attack do about the same damage separately, but do less than 2x the damage if stacked. so the tank should just voke, you TA on the mob, SA when your SA time is up. for WS, it's WS+TA only.
if you are 60+ and your tank absolutely needs SATA to hold hate, i'm sorry, your tank is either gimp or you have some mages who need to get their fingers broken.

 

[Phraust]

THANK YOU!
You're welcome

What, if anyone would like to take an educated guess, would you say is the damage difference between sc'ing a properly enfeebled mob versus at the very beginning with no enfeebles? DoT spells need..well..time don't they?

Since most of the Weaponskills that happen at lvl 60+ are accuracy based, your forst priority should be Gravity, then Dia. If your WHm is Awsome they can Burst Paralyze on a Distortion, or Slow on a Scission. Later around 66ish, you can Burst Gravity on the Skillchain(Darkness), or Dia(Light).
But that is just my preferance. If your Haste cycle gets screwy, just do it after the weaponskill is all.

The difference in Damage between a buffed and Debuffed Monster is about 50 damage from all participants. In a worse case scenario, it means you will be throwing out about 200 damage. But... you gain Hate control, and save MP in the end through better hate control.

Not a criticism 'tall though, just really curious.

actually with assassin, a lot of thf past 60 that i've pt with don't stack SATA anymore. something along the lines that both attack do about the same damage separately, but do less than 2x the damage if stacked. so the tank should just voke, you TA on the mob, SA when your SA time is up. for WS, it's WS+TA only.
if you are 60+ and your tank absolutely needs SATA to hold hate, i'm sorry, your tank is either gimp or you have some mages who need to get their fingers broken.

Yes... you are right, most thieves don't stack em anymore.
There is a catch:

If you do a TA+Dancing edge you do about 350-400 damage.
If you do a SATA+Dancing Edge you do about 45-700 damage.

A bare SATA will do roughly 350 damage stacked, using a mix of Dex & Agi Gear.

A bare SA will do about 200 with all Dex gear.
A bare TA will do about 180 with all Agi gear.

Generally what I do is this:

Prime SATA, Gear = +20Dex, +20 Agi, +15 Attack, +30 Accuracy, Priming on pull.
Engage mob and skillchain.
If timed right I stay behind the paladin and arm Trick attack again using all my AGI equiptment: +10 Dex, +27Agi, +20Accuracy, +15 Attack.
Then I run to the Mob's ass and let loose a SA with Dex gear: +25 Dex, +13 Agi, +10 Attack +10 accuracy.

That way, typically, I get 600 form DE, 180 from TA, and about 200 from SA.
Watching other thieves I see: 400 from DE, 130 from TA, and 180 form SA.

Still stacking SA & TA does help considerably, if you want to be your best.

 

[Phraust]

man I fucked up the last post...

My answers to Jezza were in bold in her quote box, and my stacked SATA+WS is supposed ot be 450-700 not 45-700...

 

[yanzi]

Yes... you are right, most thieves don't stack em anymore.
There is a catch:

If you do a TA+Dancing edge you do about 350-400 damage.
If you do a SATA+Dancing Edge you do about 45-700 damage.

A bare SATA will do roughly 350 damage stacked, using a mix of Dex & Agi Gear.

A bare SA will do about 200 with all Dex gear.
A bare TA will do about 180 with all Agi gear.

Generally what I do is this:

Prime SATA, Gear = +20Dex, +20 Agi, +15 Attack, +30 Accuracy, Priming on pull.
Engage mob and skillchain.
If timed right I stay behind the paladin and arm Trick attack again using all my AGI equiptment: +10 Dex, +27Agi, +20Accuracy, +15 Attack.
Then I run to the Mob's ass and let loose a SA with Dex gear: +25 Dex, +13 Agi, +10 Attack +10 accuracy.

That way, typically, I get 600 form DE, 180 from TA, and about 200 from SA.
Watching other thieves I see: 400 from DE, 130 from TA, and 180 form SA.

Still stacking SA & TA does help considerably, if you want to be your best.

sharkbite is actually pretty weak even if you add SA to it. IMO, later PTs, it's all about the large MB. melees are just SC whores. :twisted:

 

[Rylend]

Things I have noticed that can mess up SATA at the beginning of a fight:

1. Personaly I have seen Regen II, Dia II, Bio II, and other enfebling spells pull hate but only when the puller's ranged attack misses the mob.

2. One other thing I have seen, when the puller has missed their ranged attack, is that the monster will tend to attack resting mages in the party first.

So I try to ask when I hear the pullers "Pulling" Macro if he hit the mob or not, so I can now if I should stand up or keep on resting.

Just a few things I have noticed.

 

[lorelaiy]

thank god you posted this. read it people. learn it. love it. -.-

 

[Rylend]

I forgot to add in at the end:

Thus hampering the SATA in the beginning of the fight.

 

[Nasya]

Just a couple comments and possible corrections.

as you get to higher lvls, as yanzi said, most tanks will simply voke first. it drives me nuts, but with the new trait at least you can still TA and SA seperatly and be sure to hit... of course, it lowers its effectiveness, and the total dmg by 100-200... but the fact is post 60, and espeaciallly post 65 even a moderatly well equiped ninja does need TASA to hold hate well.

In regards to SC, generally i have found that highest damage skill chain is the best one regardless of hate spread or MP used. it doesn't take a thf with your equipment long at all to get TP, and while it is best to go early on the mob, if your prey still has 50% or more HP left a SC is often still worth it. The idea is to kill things as fast as possible... at least in later chains, and espeacially in higher levels (Procs when you first fight them, Crabs, kuftal tigers, Cocatrice, sky/moon weapons/golems). If your party works well together and is on top of things you could suggest that you do a more MP efficent SC at the start of an EXP chain, and then go for a higher dmg one towards the end to make it easier to get your chain 5 or 6 (which also become increasingly rare )...

Hide will work on scent track mobs if you bring a Deoderizer with you, and use it first. just fyi. Hide will also save your SA if you primed it and the tanked had to voke... yes, it is only a 5min skill, but you should use it when it makes sense to, and it does work on Sound or Sight mobs in conjunction with SA.

Also, if a Goblin aggros when pulling a torama you can hide to lose the goblins aggro. You could also, once the pt has started on the Torama whack the goblin a few times, bring it away from the pt, and hide so that it loses aggro and leaves your PT alone. that said... sleeping a gob is not that difficult -.-

Cure lag sucks another thing i hate is when the puller is a RNG and thus no intial voke, if someone debuffs the mob it will often move

TH... I just wanted to clairify that it does not spesifically effect ra/ex items... in fact in some interviews Developers have said it doesn't effect ra/ex items at all. What it does do, according to what i have read, i have never looked at nor would i understand the source code, is increase the chances of anything dropping, and typically it increases how many items drop overall. What does this do? well, lets say that item X drops maybe 2% of the time when compaired to all of the other items dropped... This means that within 50 drops, you should see the item you are looking for. With a thf, you will have less null drops and more drops per mob overall which means you will get to the item in less kills, and less time, then without a thf.

on the other comments... It is true that THF has more opertunities to make money then the average player. But a lot of it still has to do with luck (coffer hunting, claiming NM, whatever), and it still takes a hell of a lot time, and dedication, which is not somethign that many players have.

THF is hardly a cheap job. At fourty a thf should have already spent over 2mil gil (2x snipers, boots, and hairpin alone are like 1.7mil). at 57, our best body piece for normal attacks is 4-5mil, blue and black cotiehardies have dropped in price significantly but when i got mine they were 300-500k. Best pants we can wear at end game are 2mil. Our Cursed gear is 800k-1.1mil per piece.... I am hardly as well equiped as Phraust is(its that dedication thing, he spent days camping Argus, i didn't), but i have spent nearly 10mil on gear... and intend on spending, or obtaining, about 25-39mil more before i am done with THF. It would be far more too, if there wasn't a ra/ex harpe that is better then the two that are sold on AH. the next 3.3mil i gain is going into 3x angle skins so i can get my abjurations uncursed... this job is hardly cheap.

on Haste -

In order to fully undertand why a thf needs haste... you must understand how TP is gained...

the %TP you get per hit is based on your weapons delay. THF gets 5-6% per hit with nin sub, i donno about war... (10-12% per attack turn if both strikes hit) in contrast, Higher delay weapons get more TP per hit/attack turn. basically. If everyone hits every attack they make, and they are all either hasted or not hasted, they will all have 100% AT THE SAME TIME. Therefore, if you do not keep both of the Skill Chaining members hasted, the hasted one will most likely have to wait on not hasted one to gain 100% or more tp. It is generally in everyones best interest to keep all melee members hasted, including the tank... Nin and War tanks needs it for utsusemi recast, for pld i am sure it is useful for flash recast, and for TP gain it is very useful. Have the whm haste one person(tank maybe? since they have to watch their status the most anyway), and the rdm haste the other two.

on steal mug - /praise Phraust. that is one of the most BS comments i have ever heard D:

 

[Nasya]

Yanzi -> Shark can do a lot of dmg if people have the corect equipment. Most thfs only deal with dex/agi gear, but Shark Bites dmg is effected by STR, which is something most people seem not to undertand.

 

[Phraust]

Things I have noticed that can mess up SATA at the beginning of a fight:

1. Personaly I have seen Regen II, Dia II, Bio II, and other enfebling spells pull hate but only when the puller's ranged attack misses the mob.

2. One other thing I have seen, when the puller has missed their ranged attack, is that the monster will tend to attack resting mages in the party first.

So I try to ask when I hear the pullers "Pulling" Macro if he hit the mob or not, so I can now if I should stand up or keep on resting.

Just a few things I have noticed.

That's why I suggested you go out with the puller and 'Spot' them, not just for links, but as to deliver warnings. I guess I forgot that bart, but absolutely excellent observation.

 

[Phraust]

Re: Just a couple comments and possible corrections.

Hide will work on scent track mobs if you bring a Deoderizer with you, and use it first. just fyi. Hide will also save your SA if you primed it and the tanked had to voke... yes, it is only a 5min skill, but you should use it when it makes sense to, and it does work on Sound or Sight mobs in conjunction with SA.

Also, if a Goblin aggros when pulling a torama you can hide to lose the goblins aggro. You could also, once the pt has started on the Torama whack the goblin a few times, bring it away from the pt, and hide so that it loses aggro and leaves your PT alone. that said... sleeping a gob is not that difficult -.-

Yes Hide will work if you have deoderize, But no, in my personal experience if I aggro a Gob will I got a Torama, I can't Hide from the gob. Another thing to Note though is that you can use patches of water as a 'Natural deoderize'. If you run through a Pool of water you can lose mobs too. Which actually becomes a pain in the ass when you are pulling crawlers in the tree...

TH... I just wanted to clairify that it does not spesifically effect ra/ex items... in fact in some interviews Developers have said it doesn't effect ra/ex items at all. What it does do, according to what i have read, i have never looked at nor would i understand the source code, is increase the chances of anything dropping, and typically it increases how many items drop overall. What does this do? well, lets say that item X drops maybe 2% of the time when compaired to all of the other items dropped... This means that within 50 drops, you should see the item you are looking for. With a thf, you will have less null drops and more drops per mob overall which means you will get to the item in less kills, and less time, then without a thf.

Excatly what I was trying to say. Treasure Hunter doesn't affect the drop rate of Rare/Ex items' frequency, just the frequency of attaining drops period.

Phraust is(its that dedication thing, he spent days camping Argus, i didn't)

Correction: MONTHS!

[/quote]

 

[Nasya]

Correct: MONTHS!

Meeeeeeeh… I know, and anyone else who knows anything about argus knows that too. My point was a long time… most people have trouble even spending a few hours camping things alone ‘-‘.

If the torama attacks you before you get far enough from the gob to get reagroed (which usually is the case) then yeah, it won't work... but it could! Which was my point Pulling the goblin aside later once the torma is on someone else's back will work though, assuming you are the only one with aggro from it. but... like i said before, sleep is a much better option '-'

Excatly what I was trying to say. Treasure Hunter doesn't affect the drop rate of Rare/Ex items' frequency, just the frequency of attaining drops period.

Yes, I know that is what you were saying, but when I have used specific items in my explanations of TH people get stuck on them and end up not understanding the general concept which is why I retold it in a more general way '-'.

 

[Grieve]

Phraust: beatiful, just beautiful. /sniff, wipes tear away.

totally unrelated to anything, some interesting information: dancing edge is charisma based. its only damage modifiers are tp and charisma. Tested and 100% confirmed. Might give it a try. Same with marksmanship ws's and agility. Also spiral hell is half mnd half strength, whereas crossreaper takes INT and strength into consideration. as i said, totally unrelated but semi-handy. Shark bite is based solely on agil i believe but im not entirely sure. so in addition to the agil/dex mods for sa and ta, you have an additional derivitive stat to factor in.
on a side note to a side note, ive had a chance to see the new ta mod in action under probably the best circumstances possible: thf with kraken club, scorp harness, etc chaining with a ranger in shrine of ruavitu. shark bite was lower to mid 600's on both sa and ta, solod, never stacked. there were quite a few instances where it was identical numbers, and with a kraken they were flying fast enough to scroll up the log to see. It was a beautiful thing to watch anyway. Much respect to jsoft. as always lol

 

[Jezza]

I'll let go of my haste cycle...sigh..

Oh, and I am lvl 60+..btw..heh...but it seems anyone worth anything is in a static, and in the pick up parties I get....

I'd be better off crafting :evil:

 

[Direwolf]

I'll let go of my haste cycle...sigh..

Oh, and I am lvl 60+..btw..heh...but it seems anyone worth anything is in a static, and in the pick up parties I get....

I'd be better off crafting :evil:

Yea that right there is the real problem... Pick me up parties are like having someone beat you with a blunt object for hours on end... After enough of these horibale hours of agony you might even get to say "Ding"... more likely you will be saying Dong... Thank you crafting it is one of the few things that kept me from switching over to WoW.