This crap...

If they don't have a refund policy then why should they care if they win or lose? If you give 350k to people who don't care cause they win either way then they won't try and you just rip people off. If they had the refund policy then they would have a reason to win.
 
Flameing the people hosting the run is completely stupid. This is simple economics people. You sell shit for what people will pay for it. These people were willing to buy into this shit not asking the full details of the situation and they paid the price for not understanding it all.

Flame the buyers, not the sellers....

Wait, where have i heard that b4 >.>
 
Mirewen said:
Kinda the same problem people have with Merc'ing KSNM to BLM. Calling them lazy and what not. I can see your point Fire. Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice...
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Problem with a merc ksnm is there's an understood risk of getting crap drops. I'm sure people don't worry about if the blms will wipe or not. With DM, a loss simply shouldn't happen with a blm manaburn. If a wipe happens because of an error fine, but there's 30mins in the battle, more than enough time for reraise and try again.

Not offering a refund is proof of their own lack of confidence in themselves. Think of it as a warranty, if I'm buying something with a 5 year warranty, that says the company trusts itself with that product that it won't fail. If it had a 90 day warranty, I might stay clear of the product. (unless its price is prettey low, or no alternative)

Which is kinda what makes that rule work, there's no alternative group of blms who say "we know what we're doing, we're sure we can do it, you get full refund if we fail"
 
Firestreak said:
If you don't like the BLM cannon way... then don't sign up? If you don't like no guaranteed win... then don't sign up?

I don't really see where the issue is. I see people offering shit that's overpriced on the AH board all the time.. I just don't buy from them and move on with my life.
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Yeah, but with the AH board you're guarenteed to get the item you are paying for. Here you pay but you might not get the win and the item.
 
Rappa said:
I did DM in a random retarded pickup group. Not everyone really knew what to do, but we kinda got "in the zone" during the run and suddenly everything came together and we pulled it off. We had a wipe when the elvaan was at 1% hp left and he regened to full. A few people couldn't be raised because of where they died. But we still won, and it was pretty damn exciting. Glad we won too since we went in on my pentasphere, lol.
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Well I was just referring to my experiences with said random retarded pickup groups :P
 
Rorschach said:
Yeah, but with the AH board you're guarenteed to get the item you are paying for. Here you pay but you might not get the win and the item.
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You're paying for their time not the win. It's clear when offered. If it's a good offer or not depends on each individual's alternatives. For example, if you're not in a linkshell that would do DM, and not going to be in a linkshell any time soon that would, your alternatives is this, random pickup or better offer of a DM run by another BLM group.

If no other BLM groups are offering and you can't get a random pickup group, then it's this or nothing. If I want, for example, a pair of koenig hands, and I don't wish to join a sky linkshell or am unable to find one, simarly, I might find myself paying a linkshell for the right to lot on one of their drops. Perhaps I don't want to join an entire linkshell for 1 piece of gear, maybe I'd rather just buy the gear. Maybe I don't enjoy hunting sky, or doing DM, maybe I prefer crafting for gil and consider that a better use of my time.

Any potential customer of that BLM run has these alternatives in mind. How else can I get this item? What would I rather do?

They don't care to experience the fight... then that's their choice. I don't see what someone who's not interesting in doing business with them has for a reason to be pissy about the whole thing. We all have different situations and enjoy different aspects of FFXI, the fact that from your perspective, this is a bad deal is fairly meaningless, and to attack all who participate is simply close mindedness.

If the deal is so shitty, and 200k spread among 17 BLM is so valuable that you can find 18 other BLM jumping for job to offer a better deal than no guarantee on a win, go with those BLM. As for me, I'll pass on that.
 
And all of this is why I have never taken up his "service", and never will.
 
For some lazy people, it's all about the goal, not the journey. This is a great battle and doing it simply for the earring is sad. I do agree the people getting the earring should be flamed not the people running it, they're just trying to make money off the unorganized and lazy players.
 
Right and you should be flamed for buying anything that was crafted for being lazy and not experiencing the great joy of leveling goldsmithing to 100. As well you should be flamed if you bought any NM items off the AH for being too lazy to camp it yourself. You should be flamed for not cooking your own food. You should be flamed for not farming your own ingrediants. You should be flamed for doing something that has absolutely no affect on anyone else but yourself.

Afterall, this is Final Fantasy 11, where the game content alone is not enough, the real enjoyment is judging others for not being exactly like you.
 
Firestreak said:
Right and you should be flamed for buying anything that was crafted for being lazy and not experiencing the great joy of leveling goldsmithing to 100. As well you should be flamed if you bought any NM items off the AH for being too lazy to camp it yourself. You should be flamed for not cooking your own food. You should be flamed for not farming your own ingrediants. You should be flamed for doing something that has absolutely no affect on anyone else but yourself.
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Because all of this is relevant to the OP. You're again missing the point. When I buy crafted goods, it's already made. If I buy an NM dropped item, I'm buying it because it's 100% mine afterwards without countercamping or worrying about the droprate. I don't make my own food because there are people who do it for a "living", same reason I go to Burger King and buy a whopper. I wanted it fast and I didn't want to do it. The point of this topic is that they are taking your money and saying "Yeah, maybe we'll win it, maybe we won't. Regardless, no refunds!".

If you're referring to the discussion of people "missing out" on the battle. If you're actually going to compare a long cool fight to cranking out some meat mithkabobs... well, you're Firestreak. To you, they are probably the same deal. I don't play FFXI to crank out meat mithkabobs, just like I don't go to Burger King to make my own food. But whatever.
 
Firestreak said:
Afterall, this is Final Fantasy 11, where the game content alone is not enough, the real enjoyment is judging others for not being exactly like you.
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I don't always agree with Firestreak but this is the quote of the year right there.
 
isnt buying black belt items along the same lines and merc'd DM ?

buying hataku eyes for ohat... buying bronze coins for turban.

sure there is a degree of fun to each level of items obtained and the item it's self, it all falls down the same path.
 
ds083roadkill said:
isnt buying black belt items along the same lines and merc'd DM ?

buying hataku eyes for ohat... buying bronze coins for turban.

sure there is a degree of fun to each level of items obtained and the item it's self, it all falls down the same path.
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Like Rappa said. You buy them because they already exist. Not for the chance for them to, with a possibility of it not occuring. No one pays a HNM shell daily for the chance of the black belt items. They pay when it actually drops. Perhaps I'll farm up Aero IV, and charge 20x it's cost because the first 19 Yagudo BLMs didn't drop it. Yeah sorry, it doesn't work that way. You don't get your reward on "could have"s, only on "did"s. Not to mention 20k for simultaneous cast is far more than it's actually worth. Such strenuous work and great display of skill right there. Anyone who mercs DM is a fucking idiot.
 
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Rappa said:
Because all of this is relevant to the OP. You're again missing the point. When I buy crafted goods, it's already made. If I buy an NM dropped item, I'm buying it because it's 100% mine afterwards without countercamping or worrying about the droprate. I don't make my own food because there are people who do it for a "living", same reason I go to Burger King and buy a whopper. I wanted it fast and I didn't want to do it. The point of this topic is that they are taking your money and saying "Yeah, maybe we'll win it, maybe we won't. Regardless, no refunds!".

If you're referring to the discussion of people "missing out" on the battle. If you're actually going to compare a long cool fight to cranking out some meat mithkabobs... well, you're Firestreak. To you, they are probably the same deal. I don't play FFXI to crank out meat mithkabobs, just like I don't go to Burger King to make my own food. But whatever.
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It's very simple...

... if you want to do the BC for the enjoyment of it, don't sign up for a manaburn run.

...if you don't consider the gamble that the alliance will win, don't sign up for the manaburn run.

This is what's being offered. If you think it's a shitty deal, don't sign up. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. It's the business of the BLM who want to spend their time getting such a meager amount of gil and the participants who are willing to take the risk because that's how they'd prefer to get their earring out of their possible alternatives, if they even have any.
 
Rappa said:
Because all of this is relevant to the OP. You're again missing the point. When I buy crafted goods, it's already made. If I buy an NM dropped item, I'm buying it because it's 100% mine afterwards without countercamping or worrying about the droprate. I don't make my own food because there are people who do it for a "living", same reason I go to Burger King and buy a whopper. I wanted it fast and I didn't want to do it. The point of this topic is that they are taking your money and saying "Yeah, maybe we'll win it, maybe we won't. Regardless, no refunds!".

If you're referring to the discussion of people "missing out" on the battle. If you're actually going to compare a long cool fight to cranking out some meat mithkabobs... well, you're Firestreak. To you, they are probably the same deal. I don't play FFXI to crank out meat mithkabobs, just like I don't go to Burger King to make my own food. But whatever.
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At the same time, it could be said that the black mage setting this up is making a living doing this event for people. They are paying for his time to organize a run and try. I'm not saying i agree with the no refund aspect.
Had he been ambiguous on this point, there would be validity to this flame. Yet he is up front about it, for any interested parties to see. Its up to them whether or not they want to join. If no one goes, then he wont get paid and will have to adjust his pricing/policy. But if theres a market for this type of event then more power to him.

People will play this game in the way that is fun for them. If that means getting their earrings in this matter, then who cares. Maybe it gives them more time to go fishing or questing or xping.
 
I agree. Not everyone values everything to be the same in this game. I just think it's shady that someone offers to set up a run but makes no guarantee of a win. If that's how they make their living, they will be considered the "knockoff brand" to the ones that do offer refunds or a guaranteed win. I think that's the point of the topic (well, I assume so anyway). To me, DM was about fun. To some, it's about an earring. But if they are shelling out gil, they should be getting the earring. Up to them I guess.
 
Skaw said:
Like Rappa said. You buy them because they already exist. Not for the chance for them to, with a possibility of it not occuring. No one pays a HNM shell daily for the chance of the black belt items. They pay when it actually drops. Perhaps I'll farm up Aero IV, and charge 20x it's cost because the first 19 Yagudo BLMs didn't drop it. Yeah sorry, it doesn't work that way. You don't get your reward on "could have"s, only on "did"s. Not to mention 20k for simultaneous cast is far more than it's actually worth. Such strenuous work and great display of skill right there. Anyone who mercs DM is a fucking idiot.
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You've tried to get your BB item via a BLM alliance in KS99, no?

I've done DM the regular way.

I've done every one of the KS99 fights the regular way.

DM is a joke compared to KS99 in my person opinion. Of course I would never judge you for trying to get an item by use of a BLM alliance when you could simply join a HNM shell, spend all of your free time playing FFXI and get it that way. I mean, it's fucking retarded to just pay a few mill to get your BB instead of spending your whole life doing it, since the KS99 fight is so much god damn fun.



And yet again...

If you don't think the deal is worth it without a guaranteed win...

THEN...
....DON'T...
........SIGN....
.............UP...

I know I won't. =p
 
Rappa said:
I agree. Not everyone values everything to be the same in this game. I just think it's shady that someone offers to set up a run but makes no guarantee of a win. If that's how they make their living, they will be considered the "knockoff brand" to the ones that do offer refunds or a guaranteed win. I think that's the point of the topic (well, I assume so anyway). To me, DM was about fun. To some, it's about an earring. But if they are shelling out gil, they should be getting the earring. Up to them I guess.
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If they paid enough they'd get some BLM who could guarantee a win. Anything under a mill split among 18 is a fucking joke.

It's 55k a run at a million/18. At 200k, you get what you pay for.
 
Firestreak said:
It's 55k a run at a million/18. At 200k, you get what you pay for.
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At 200k per leech, assuming 16 blms and 2 leeches, that's 25k per run for the blms. Since you can safely do 6 an hour (10 minute recast on elemental seal) add in gather time and factor in the number of runs they would end up doing, it's still close to 100k/hr.

It only takes 16 normal blms, if you go on thundersday you can do it with 12 pimp blms.
 
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