This is perhaps the last chance for "Discussion"

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I make the distinction and cutoff at advantage-based play. I cannot realistically use windower to advantage myself against others. In the event that there is not direct competition, such as in dynamis, BC, ENM, and capped events, I cannot realistically use windower to reap what I did not developmentally earn. By developmentally, I mean I can't use the windower to pay a price less than what the developers intended me to pay--via less effort first and foremost, and darker venues most certainly.

That is why I consider fleetool to be a cheat, while windower is a convenience. But again, that is not the issue. The issue at hand is that we have two huge forces hell-bent on opposing each other here, and something has to be DONE about it or people will be deleted.

Because this isn't exactly a stalemate though--because this course of current events has a natural endpoint no matter how defiantly fleetool and hack users oppose it, I feel somewhat obligated to give them a better way out than deletion out of pure spite and defiance--a way that is more compatible to preserving face.
 
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Peregrine said:
I make the distinction and cutoff at advantage-based play. I cannot realistically use windower to advantage myself against others. In the event that there is not direct competition, such as in dynamis, BC, ENM, and capped events, I cannot realistically use windower to reap what I did not developmentally earn. By developmentally, I mean I can't use the windower to pay a price less than what the developers intended me to pay--via less effort first and foremost, and darker venues most certainly.

That is why I consider fleetool to be a cheat, while windower is a convenience. But again, that is not the issue. The issue at hand is that we have two huge forces hell-bent on opposing each other there, and something has to be DONE about it or people will be deleted.

Because this isn't exactly a stalemate though--because this is unfairly one-sided to the favor of the non-fleetooling population--and because the other side is inherently at a proven advantage, I feel somewhat obligated to give them a better way out than deletion out of pure spite and defiance.
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Yes you can, take summoning magic for instance, on the windower forum there is a very simple bot already scripted for use in the console.


How is that fair for people without it? :>
 
Two comments:

1) I agree with Peregrine.(wtf?)

2) This isn't about windower.
 
You've defiantely presented a more rational thought out argument in this post than your last. I agree that cheating is a major problem in game and an even bigger one when LS leaders encourage/allow it to happen. It's one thing to not know about it, but a completely different story when you know but chose to ignore it.

As far as the windower thing goes, I feel it's SEs own fault for making FFXI a fullscreen game. In a game such as this where any event takes 2+ hours to complete, an almost 100% party orientated which sometimes means hours of just sitting there waiting for an invite, stuff like HLNM pops like Behemoth where you sit there for 3 hours but only spam for a small window etc, it was a huge oversight on their side to not make the game tabable. There's an awful lot of waiting in this game to expect people to not want to multitask when running FFXI is just stupid.
 
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Right, I'm not here to discuss how to kite kirin, nor here to discuss if windower or any of its expansion packs is or is not a cheat. Since the flame topic was not taken seriously, and regretablly I should not have expected it to and perhaps even wanted it to not be taken seriously since I knew I had an unfair advantage...we're trying this again in a more acceptable way that makes it easier for the fleetool users to quit the hack.
 
Thank you for bringing that up Odon.

As I said before Gir he mentioned all cheats. By definition, as I had posted, that includes windower as soon as you say all. You don't want it to be about windower, make a new thread. As long as this thread continues on, I will continue on bringing windower into it.
 
Windower is the gateway cheat. You download it for convenience, then all of a sudden realize that you have this nifty TP thing loaded up by default. That's a step over the line right there, imo.

While it doesn't provide a huge benefit, it does give you something that you can't get without a camera installed in your party member's houses. I downplay how beneficial this is because even if I knew my party members' TP, I wouldn't open a SC without them telling me they have 100+. Why? Because half the melee engage and go afk, or are flipping through the channels, and take 10 TP calls to finally respond.

But it is still something that is a benefit that you shouldn't have, and if you want to claim the high road while using windower, go into your plug-ins directory of your windower, and delete all the files in there. These are the things that are a step over the line for cheating. Windower by itself is basically a laptop right next to you, plug-ins are cheating.

This is where I draw the line. Everyone needs to draw their own line and refuse to cross it. If you take one step, then take another step, then another, you end up relying on fleetool and warp hacks to do everything.
 
Drawing our own lines is what got us to where we are right now--me not budging, them not budging, and the suspensions piling up.
 
See, it's the silence after posts like that which don't facilitate the resolution of important discussions, while people are content to chitchat about the points of windower and smaller, easier topics.
 
Peregrine said:
Drawing our own lines is what got us to where we are right now--me not budging, them not budging, and the suspensions piling up.
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True, but people can draw their lines at the same points as anyone else and just not care because its just a game, thus not real life. Yes, I'll say I cheat because of the basic definition and that I use windower. Does that make me a cheater in what I do in real life? No. I wouldn't cheat/didn't cheat on tests, etc. in school. I'll never cheat on my husband. I won't allow our kids to cheat, and will punish them if they get caught. But to me FFXI is a game and I don't really care if someone uses, by definition, any type of cheat including windower and flee tools. Hell, I could even live with out the game. There's cheaters in life and just like life, nothing is gonna stop it from happening. So I don't worry. And to say it doesn't affect me in game... yes it does and I know that. Items I want are higher than i want to pay or are over camped. But you know what? I'm not worried about it.
 
Again, discussions about games versus real life, personal definitions takes and relativity, kirin kiting, windower use when there are people fleeing without ever stopping, and arguing that it'll never stop...these are just safety mechanisms to attempt to convince ourselves that this topic doesn't exist. Gray isn't the only one skirting the issues, as we can see in the start of the thread. It's not comfortable to talk about Algarius and Silversurfer sitting in jail right now, and the very real fact that if they are caught again, they will be deleted.
 
graydaze said:
True, but people can draw their lines at the same points as anyone else and just not care because its just a game, thus not real life. Yes, I'll say I cheat because of the basic definition and that I use windower. Does that make me a cheater in what I do in real life? No. I wouldn't cheat/didn't cheat on tests, etc. in school. I'll never cheat on my husband. I won't allow our kids to cheat, and will punish them if they get caught. But to me FFXI is a game and I don't really care if someone uses, by definition, any type of cheat including windower and flee tools. Hell, I could even live with out the game. There's cheaters in life and just like life, nothing is gonna stop it from happening. So I don't worry. And to say it doesn't affect me in game... yes it does and I know that. Items I want are higher than i want to pay or are over camped. But you know what? I'm not worried about it.
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I have two questions for you.

1. Which is a "bigger" cheat, and impacts the game more, windower or fleehack?

2. Which do you think SE should focus on removing from the game, windower or fleehack?

Everyone knows windower is against ToS, no one cares, you're just looking stubborn by not listening to what anyone says and just saying "it's cheating" over and over. The OP even specified the extent to what he wanted discussed, to stop this kind of pointless drivel from taking over the whole thread. We know it's cheating, we don't give a fuck; drop it already, seriously. Let's talk about the cheats that are pertinent to the topic.
 
It's fine. They're not the only one who doesn't want to talk about the proposed issue. It is not an easy topic to truly enter. Even the people who want to discuss the issue keep going back to windower as a safety net--even they are uncomfortable.
 
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Anyone who is criticising people for attacking fleetools but supporting Windower should read some Thoreau, or read Letter from Birmingham Jail.


Edit: Oh, and I'm with Peregrine on this 100%. I tried to report Silversurfer myself a month or two ago but it didn't work, the GM didn't get back to me until Silversurfer was already in Ru'Avitau.

I was in Zi'tah.

He left Jeuno after I did.
 
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So basically what you want is a discussion, without any real discussion? You just want a bunch of sheep repeating what you said?

What's really left to discuss about the cheaters that have been caught? They've been suspended, and will likely have there accounts deleted if caught again. Discussion goes where from here?
 
I don't know. OH is on post restriction. Chitchat about the windower won't do any good. Discussion about the use of fleetooling on quetza might.
 
Bed time. If they do start posting, try to cut them a little slack as far as the content goes. It's not flaming, but it's still inflammatory. I still see this on the flameboard in the morning, but at least someone will have tried.
 
Odon said:
Yes you can, take summoning magic for instance, on the windower forum there is a very simple bot already scripted for use in the console.


How is that fair for people without it? :>
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See how easy that was? I only had to highlight 2 words to show how that is not a windower issue, that is a person scripting/botting. Windower makes it easier, but it is not a base function of the software.

Even the pluggins for windower are something that a person with fantastic math skills is able to accomplish without. I used to be able to count hits and know the TP of my SC parter without the pluggin, within a very small margin of error, but now I don't have to pay as much attention. People could tell the xp/hour before the xpwatch plugin just by looking at a clock and looking at their XP an hour later and noticing the difference. Neither of these things are unfair advantages.

Using flee tools to accomplish what is not just incredibly hard, but an actual impossibility, is the issue at hand. Everyone knows it's wrong and everyone knows it is the far greater evil, what we do about it is what matters now. I think getting people banned like he has is a good solution and I fully support it.

I am curious how it is a SE employee can't look up a mojority of the different hacks on google, download them, look at the code, and adjust theirs accordingly. Of course, they may be letting people cheat just so they can catch them. It makes sense, since someone willing to use a hack will just write another for the new code if they keep adjusting it.
 
I'm not saying Pree's right or wrong in what he's doing. I'm not saying OH cheats/doesn't cheat.

Saying we're skirting the issue by incorporating real life/windower into the thread makes it seem like your flame posts. If its not specifically what you want, you don't want it in the thread.

If I'm looking stubborn by stating my point of view, then everyone should be stubborn. You cannot honestly have a discussion covering all game cheats without incorporating windower. Yes, one may impact the game more than the other, but they are still changing what SE wanted the game to be. They in their own minds did not want the game to be in a window, they wanted it full screen. The OP said all cheats. In my mind that even includes windower.

Since we all know its cheating and don't care should not make it any different than using flee tools, bots, hacks, whatever you want to call them. Yes, I'd like to see all of that removed from the game but I doubt it ever will happen.

You guys seem just as stubborn to me Baj by not listening to what I say that I feel you cannot have an honest debate about ALL cheats without incorporating windower into it. As I said, if Pere wanted a debate just on flee tool then a thread saying "this cheat", flee tool, and the like should have been started and not incorporating "all cheats" into it.

Yes, flee tool is considered to be a bigger problem than windower. It doesn't matter to me.

And yes, I completely understand that this topic does exist Pere. But you are skirting the issue it seems to me by just saying you only want talk about flee tools or just OH's "use" (as I said I will not say I feel they do or do not) of it without including ALL other cheats or even other linkshells.
 
graydaze said:
I'm not saying Pree's right or wrong in what he's doing. I'm not saying OH cheats/doesn't cheat.

Saying we're skirting the issue by incorporating real life/windower into the thread makes it seem like your flame posts. If its not specifically what you want, you don't want it in the thread.

If I'm looking stubborn by stating my point of view, then everyone should be stubborn. You cannot honestly have a discussion covering all game cheats without incorporating windower. Yes, one may impact the game more than the other, but they are still changing what SE wanted the game to be. They in their own minds did not want the game to be in a window, they wanted it full screen. The OP said all cheats. In my mind that even includes windower.

Since we all know its cheating and don't care should not make it any different than using flee tools, bots, hacks, whatever you want to call them. Yes, I'd like to see all of that removed from the game but I doubt it ever will happen.

You guys seem just as stubborn to me Baj by not listening to what I say that I feel you cannot have an honest debate about ALL cheats without incorporating windower into it. As I said, if Pere wanted a debate just on flee tool then a thread saying "this cheat", flee tool, and the like should have been started and not incorporating "all cheats" into it.

Yes, flee tool is considered to be a bigger problem than windower. It doesn't matter to me.

And yes, I completely understand that this topic does exist Pere. But you are skirting the issue it seems to me by just saying you only want talk about flee tools or just OH's "use" (as I said I will not say I feel they do or do not) of it without including ALL other cheats or even other linkshells.
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You have to pick your battles. There are lots of problems in the FFXI community. It's foolish to fight them all at once. We only have limited resources. If we try to defend everywhere, we'll be weak everywhere. That's some Sun Tzu logic for the topic. In the event the crusade against Flee-tools is successful, then the next big issue can be tackled. When the threat of Avian Flu became a reality, you didn't see naysayers saying: "Unless you also fight common cold, you're skirting the issue and/or are a hypocrite. The common cold is just as much a disease as this Avian Flu." It's a matter of priorities. Yeah you should be enforcing J-walking laws as much as every other law, but you only have so many police, and sometimes you just have to say, the murders and robberies are more pressing.
 
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